153 replies to this topic

[crockrocket]

Still funny how I manage to get an alright score on Bunker in a high tier server. But yes, Hellfires are useless in those games.



I'm fairly sure that you have a higher MMR than me. XD And here I thought i was mid-tier.

Relative low compared to high tier, I'd call myself mid-range as well haha

[spo0n]

Generally by dodging the hellfire you get hit by seekers.

 

I hate how seeketeer is the best rocketeer.  Except for the incin, all the primary weapons offer different play styles without being better or worse overall.  Seeker, however, offers lots of easy dps and not very interesting gameplay, especially considering the other weapons.  Both heat and eoc can shoot around corners and complement hellfires, but the synergy seeker offers along with the damage makes it the weapon of choice.

 

Especially at high levels.

[LarryLaffer]

All this hellfire talk ^^. I feel hated upon, sorry guys but taking the bruiser out for a spin sooths the mind.

 

But seriously there is a lot of cover on bunker also on the outskirts of the map. Use it better ;).

 

Skillfires locked! Curving 180 degrees initiated!

There actually are 8 cover spots (11 in MA) on Bunker you can be relatively safe from HFs. If Rocketeer of Bruiser has height advantage, it can curve its HFs almost everywhere except these 8 places. And if there are 2+ Rocketeers/Bruisers then the battle changes into "Incoming missile" spamfest from different andges.

 

Generally by dodging the hellfire you get hit by seekers.

 

I hate how seeketeer is the best rocketeer.  Except for the incin, all the primary weapons offer different play styles without being better or worse overall.  Seeker, however, offers lots of easy dps and not very interesting gameplay, especially considering the other weapons.  Both heat and eoc can shoot around corners and complement hellfires, but the synergy seeker offers along with the damage makes it the weapon of choice.

 

Especially at high levels.

Seeketeer is the best Rocketeer not because it is so damn good, but because all other weapons are almost unusable on Rocketeer now. Rocketeer can't fully realize the potential of Heat Cannon or EOC Repeater due to lack of mobility. You can play with these weapons on Uptown or Wreckage more or less competitively, but that's all.

 

The Seeker itself is kinda mediocre weapon. It has tracking - yes, but it also has low projectile speed and one of the lowest DPS (71.43) in game. And you have to aim in order to lock missiles. So you can consider it as low-DPS unreliable hitscan weapon. And hitscan weapons are better now because of increased mobility in general and air mobility and AC in particular. That's why Seeketeer is the best Rocketeer now, but it is definitely not the best mech.

Edited by LarryLaffer, 29 March 2015 - 09:04 PM.

[spo0n]

The Seeker itself is kinda mediocre weapon. It has tracking - yes, but it also has low projectile speed and one of the lowest DPS (71.43) in game. And you have to aim in order to lock missiles. So you can consider it as low-DPS unreliable hitscan weapon. And hitscan weapons are better now because of increased mobility in general and air mobility and AC in particular. That's why Seeketeer is the best Rocketeer now, but it is definitely not the best mech.

And the dps is about 10% higher for spamming heat and HITTING EVERY ROUND.

 

Seekers do fifty damage a piece and track targets at long ranges.  Considering how hitscan weapons all suffer from damage dropoff and seekers/projectiles do not, it looks like you got a nice long range weapon there.

[Brawler_Yukon]

Generally by dodging the hellfire you get hit by seekers.

 

I hate how seeketeer is the best rocketeer.  Except for the incin, all the primary weapons offer different play styles

While you're not wrong(At least not 100%), I would like to point out that at least the 3 Inc mains do make you play differently with each, as M4MA is terrible if you're trying to fight another Inc, PPA is terrible if you're not good at keeping yourself from overheating, and actively asks you to not get directly into the thick of fighting, and BBY is lowest possible damage but trades off for least amount of heat.

Edited by Brawler_Yukon, 29 March 2015 - 10:06 PM.

[LarryLaffer]

And the dps is about 10% higher for spamming heat and HITTING EVERY ROUND.

 

Seekers do fifty damage a piece and track targets at long ranges.  Considering how hitscan weapons all suffer from damage dropoff and seekers/projectiles do not, it looks like you got a nice long range weapon there.

Like if you hit every round with Seeker Only Anichkov, top EU Seeketeer, has 62% accuracy, but he plays only Siege which is basically a shooting-range for all "camper" mechs such as Rocketeers, Sharpshooters/Reapers and Predators. There are a lot of factors such as covers, enemy mech movement speed and so on which determine whether Seeker missile hits its target or not. It is nice long range weapon indeed, but Slug Rifle is much more reliable and can do such terrific things that Rocketeer can only dream about. And it also doesn't have damage falloff at all.

 

UPD. The one thing Seeker excels at is the hit sound. When you are hit by Slug Rifle bullet, you hear that juicy "THWACK" sound and instanly think "I need to find cover!". But Seeker's hit sound is muted, so when you are hit by Seeker missiles you often think, "Hey, where is my HP?! Oh God, the missile is incoming!!! *BOOM* *You are dead!" So this thing maybe needs some kind of fix.

Edited by LarryLaffer, 29 March 2015 - 11:24 PM.

[M4st0d0n]

Seeker is not a burst weapon. Bye bye bending around corners if your primary forces you to maintain line of sight. They need to get rid of the lego system if they want to balance this game. EOC and Heat were nerfed to adjust A classes.

[Brawler_Yukon]

Seeker is not a burst weapon. Bye bye bending around corners if your primary forces you to maintain line of sight. They need to get rid of the lego system if they want to balance this game. EOC and Heat were nerfed to adjust A classes.

At least EOC is fun to use. (Completely irrelevant, but I wanted to say it anyways.)

[Sylhiri]

Seeker is not a burst weapon. Bye bye bending around corners if your primary forces you to maintain line of sight. They need to get rid of the lego system if they want to balance this game. EOC and Heat were nerfed to adjust A classes.

 

EOC was nerfed because it's damage was riduculous as the devs didn't adjust the damage when they made mines detection rate bigger then a few pixels wide.

 

It was a far bigger problem on Raider then it was on Infil.

Edited by Sylhiri, 30 March 2015 - 09:41 AM.

[M4st0d0n]

My point is : Modular weapons cant be tweaked without affecting multiple mechs. Nerf to EOC/Heat/hellfires and buff to seeker restrained the whole bending gameplay. People asked nerfs in the name of skill™ and it effectively reduced the skill ceiling of a mech that was arguably not the first choice for comp play. It's laughable.

[Sylhiri]

The best thing you could hope for is a G2 version to bypass the restriction placed on it by old dev design.

 

Seeking weapons (along with healing) in FPS games will always have some sort of balance issue. Honestly it would be better to rework seeking weapons to allow more player input to control where and how it seeks.

[FRX23]

The best thing you could hope for is a G2 version to bypass the restriction placed on it by old dev design.

 

Seeking weapons (along with healing) in FPS games will always have some sort of balance issue. Honestly it would be better to rework seeking weapons to allow more player input to control where and how it seeks.

 

Actually, you have to aim the opposite side of your target to give HF the right path (including the four directions, not only left or right).

This make your primary weapon aiming off much more than combined with TOW and pretty like the nade launcher.

[M4st0d0n]

The best thing you could hope for is a G2 version to bypass the restriction placed on it by old dev design.

 

Seeking weapons (along with healing) in FPS games will always have some sort of balance issue. Honestly it would be better to rework seeking weapons to allow more player input to control where and how it seeks.

 

Oh mate. G2s are abominations that tried to sell recycling for innovation. They're their own source of balance issues. If it's the "no need to aim you only have to hover over stuff to lock" you're serving me, just reduce the time windows to acquire lock to zero, so it'll be like Sabot rifle. Excep with longer cooldown and delay and less damage. And some random magic and no scope 180 to bend them. Most good rocketeer players already have their reticle on the target anyway. Because EOC and Heat.

Edited by M4st0d0n, 30 March 2015 - 11:29 AM.

[Sylhiri]

G2 mechs are there because they can not change weapons or weapon values for that particular mech and that particular mech only without a massively expensive and time consuming rework of the backend system. If they wanted to have a Rocketeer with a different weapon (or weapon value) they NEED to make it a seperate mech, thus G2.

 

The problem with Hellfires is that having too much seeking strength allows players to negate cover (and could do insanely tight turns), which is bad for mechs and weapons that require it. Having too little seeking strength makes it completely useless unless at point blank range due to the slow speed and spread. Once released the hellfires are pretty much at the mercy of it's target and the current map design, even in open air they are hilariously easy to dodge. This is why seeking weapons are hard to balance, it would actually be better for the user to rework it so that the player has more control.

[M4st0d0n]

G2 mechs are there because they can not change weapons or weapon values for that particular mech and that particular mech only without a massively expensive and time consuming rework of the backend system. If they wanted to have a Rocketeer with a different weapon (or weapon value) they NEED to make it a seperate mech, thus G2.

Yeah that's the reason, I know. I hope you realize how brhawken this sound.

 

The problem with Hellfires is that having too much seeking strength allows players to negate cover (and could do insanely tight turns), which is bad for mechs and weapons that require it. Having too little seeking strength makes it completely useless unless at point blank range due to the slow speed and spread. Once released the hellfires are pretty much at the mercy of it's target and the current map design, even in open air they are hilariously easy to dodge. This is why seeking weapons are hard to balance, it would actually be better for the user to rework it so that the player has more control.

There is a way to control them, and it's by bending them. They nerfed it but it's still doable. Try it. Play a dozen more matches with EOC-rocketeer. Then please give feedback about it.

[Sylhiri]

I like how super defensive you are, reminds me of Technician players.

[M4st0d0n]

I like how super defensive you are, reminds me of Technician players.

 

XD I like you too mate. You're so L33T. Can I has your babies? They will be nerd babies with strong opinions.

[Brawler_Yukon]

I like how super defensive you are, reminds me of Technician players.

I love how people irrationally fuzzy bunny on Tech players, as if playing tech and not Pred makes everything you say invalid.

[Fstroke]

Hellfires are such a pitiful weapon in their current state that they are only good for suppression. The only time they are a problem is on bunker and that's because bunker is an awful map that needs serious fixing or removal. Even then a single hellfire mechs is no problem BC they are easy to dodge. Its just when there are multiple, which is typical on that map.

[Leonhardt]

Again, in regards to questions of balance etc., you can't just say some equivalent of "get better" in order to dismiss concerns from the lower tiers.

 

Well you can, but its not very helpful.

[EchoJester]

If we take out one weapon let take them all out and we can all just stand In a big circle and taunt for ten minutes :) hellfire is only annoying because you don't always know whigh way there coming from,what I'm getting at is the scanner needs a missile tracker

Edited by EchoJester, 03 April 2015 - 12:47 AM.

[Superkamikazee]

Bunker is really the only map I have an issue with hellfires on. The other open maps there are moments where I'm caught in the open (which should be punishable by hellfire firing squad) but nothing like Bunker. I believe Nepacka or someone had mocked up a fix for Bunker, I think it was some tall column like structures strategically placed around the map for additional cover. Old forums, around the time of the AMA on reddit "I was a Hawken dev and I made the Bunker map, it was only an experimental map, not intended for release", something along those lines.

[Hyginos]

Bunker is really the only map I have an issue with hellfires on. The other open maps there are moments where I'm caught in the open (which should be punishable by hellfire firing squad) but nothing like Bunker. I believe Nepacka or someone had mocked up a fix for Bunker, I think it was some tall column like structures strategically placed around the map for additional cover. Old forums, around the time of the AMA on reddit "I was a Hawken dev and I made the Bunker map, it was only an experimental map, not intended for release", something along those lines.

 

I seem to remember mention that that Bunker was made in only one day.

[Sp3ctrr]

Hellfires are about as useful as a heart shaped pillow at close range, even if you don't lock it takes a 'skilled*' pilot to know how to do that.

 

 

*You're using a rocketeer, You don't deserve to be called skilled.

[Shoutaxeror]

I think hellfires are ok. But I freaking hate seeker.

[Sp3ctrr]

I think hellfires are ok. But I freaking hate seeker.

 

Seeker rocketeer is scumbag rocketeer.

[FRX23]

For me as i said, the HF are fines.

 

The only thing i see OP with them it's the dumb  locking process which succeed to complete even if the target it out of sight.

 

This is why is it anoying on bunker map :

You pick your target and start to go down hill the backward way (you lost line of sight but the lock is done) then you aim at the sky and fire to make a parabol voley.

 

It would be better if it was harder to lock but maybe stands a longer time (even out of line sight).

Edited by FRX23, 03 April 2015 - 07:51 AM.

[Flifang]

The only time I have trouble with hellfires is at max lock range, where the missiles are all clustered together and much harder to see. Not only that but I'm pretty sure, correct me if im wrong; that hellfires can and will cause each other to explode if they are close enough to each other to be effected by the explosion.

But mostly I don't care about hellfires. Although reading this thread I've realised more and more how few rocketeers are about anymore. You see them on certain maps and game modes but that's almost it now. I've decided I will do with the rocketeer as i did with the G2 raider.
The Crimson mist I generate will be glorious!

[Sp3ctrr]

Just thought I'd share this totally not edited pic. It's not edited, I swear.

[AxionOperandi]

Hellfires are not that hard to deal with even on bunker.

 

I love taking my Bruiser out on Bunker but I'm just as likely to take my Berserker.   If you know there are a bunch of players running Bruisers or Rocketeers use cover and flank, its pretty easy to outsmart Hellfires, one vs. one you can simply rush them.

[Meraple]

Honestly, with the elite skins, black is damn sexy on the Bruiser, I'd really enjoy black on my Raider, more than my Bruiser or Rocketeer(Then again, then the Rocketeer wouldn't be an obvious metal gear Rex joke(Maybe that's just me though.

 

 

Come on, admit that this look amazing.

 

 

 

Ontopic though I'm against any weapon that has tracking/homing, it's my opinion that weapons like those don't deserve a place in a skill-based game.

[Anichkov3]

Ontopic though I'm against any weapon that has tracking/homing, it's my opinion that weapons like those don't deserve a place in a skill-based game.

It's your opinion. But my opinion is that people who use hits?an weapons (which is all bullet weapons) can not condemn homing weapons. 

After all, you are competent in the game arming, right? So you can answer me how long it takes between the start of the first shot Hellfire targeting and the beginning of the second shot has targeting Hellfire? Well, can result in an example comparison with what some of proliferation of weapons ... (pointing at the same time the damage of one hit)...

And remind people shoot from hits?an weapons that to Seeker took aim it should be accurately in the crosshairs (and then remember that the rocket still need to reach the goal, as opposed to the bullet).

Edited by Anichkov3, 03 April 2015 - 09:58 AM.

[Sp3ctrr]

^

 

It's ironic because the many times I've seen you, you're in a rocketeer.

[FRX23]

 

Come on, admit that this look amazing.

 

 

 

Ontopic though I'm against any weapon that has tracking/homing, it's my opinion that weapons like those don't deserve a place in a skill-based game.

 

Hopefully, Hawken is in the first a Mech game, and a mech game without missiles obviously aiming (we r not in WW2), will be totally ridiculous.

Edited by FRX23, 03 April 2015 - 10:51 AM.

[Panzermanathod]

Personally I think Bunker as is is fine. It's an open arena type stage. If there were multiple levels like that I'd see a problem. But there really isn't.

[Beemann]

Well you can, but its not very helpful.

At some point, it kinda needs to be said.

New players have to learn how to lead, track, strafejump, bhop, skii, juke, arc nades, time grenade/rocket/disk/etc. jumps, manage ammo, manage health, manage pickups, pay attention to positioning  and many more things depending on the game they're playing. These aspects are integral to the design of the games they appear in. You really do have to learn these mechanics becasuse they're part of the game you're choosing to play. So long as they're appropriately explained/taught, there shouldn't be an issue

 

Now in this case, I feel the issue is the implication that weapons that aim for you are needed in a shooter, where the absolute integral mechanic is shooting. While homing weapons in shooters do exist, they fundamentally work against the core design philosophy, much in the way that fighting games are about appropriate move/combo usage and RTS's are about managing units and resources. If you have those aspects on autopilot, what's the point? Why not just go full Armored Core (which I would not consider a shooter so much as an action game) and have most things automatically hit to locked on targets but then have a few weapons that work off of older systems (read: manual aim) with larger payloads

 

I think the fact that Hellfires are so easily dodged only adds to this. Why would you want to keep a weapon that is only good for stomping on people who don't know the timing? In what way does this make the game better? Ping is definitely an issue, but design should be based around average ping if anything, rather than a tiny minority of 300+ ping outliers

[AxionOperandi]

I think the fact that Hellfires are so easily dodged only adds to this. Why would you want to keep a weapon that is only good for stomping on people who don't know the timing? In what way does this make the game better? Ping is definitely an issue, but design should be based around average ping if anything, rather than a tiny minority of 300+ ping outliers

You keep Hellfires because people like to use them, that makes the game better.  They are also a weapon that new players and players with high pings can get a handle on quickly, that also makes the game better.  Also, because Hellfires are different is another reason you keep them, games where everything functions the same are boring, another reason why the game is better because of them.

 

I use the Bruiser and Rocketeer as refreshing change of pace.  If you don't like them thats fine, nobody is making you use them.  You are probably right in that they really don't make you a better player like a Scout or Raider but being the best player isn't the point, having fun is.

Edited by AxionOperandi, 03 April 2015 - 11:08 PM.

[Dawn_of_Ash]

 

I think the fact that Hellfires are so easily dodged only adds to this. Why would you want to keep a weapon that is only good for stomping on people who don't know the timing? In what way does this make the game better? Ping is definitely an issue, but design should be based around average ping if anything, rather than a tiny minority of 300+ ping outliers

 

You basically just said: "forget about Australia and (possibly) Asia and possibly other countries, they'd just have to deal with other weapons". While I do understand where you are getting at, my opinion is a no. Also, "the average ping" is because of the fails which the previous devs did when they first brought the game to Steam.

 

It's still a wonder how many non-US players play on US, maybe the averages are higher than you first think.

 

But yes, I'm a part of that "tiny minority" and I'm saying that the Rocketeer is good for lag and is easy for people who experience lag, to adapt to the game. 

[LU0P10]

There shouldn't be a weapon(s) for high pingers. Yes, you would like to have those, but no.

 

Some speed and acceleration buffs for hellfires, but in order to reach the lock on - hellfire pilot should have had it's target tracked for a 1.5 or even 2 seconds. In turret mode for a one second - 1.5 second tracking should be needed. No warning sound about someone is tracking you with reticle but only when the lock on has been reached to you. At that point you scout player should be wondering why I am at the middle of this open area.

 

Actually, as HugeGuts suggested, the laser guiding would be the best idea - but for a TOW http://en.wikipedia....wiki/BGM-71_TOW  

Edited by LU0P10, 04 April 2015 - 12:37 AM.

[Beemann]

You basically just said: "forget about Australia and (possibly) Asia and possibly other countries, they'd just have to deal with other weapons". While I do understand where you are getting at, my opinion is a no. Also, "the average ping" is because of the fails which the previous devs did when they first brought the game to Steam.

 

It's still a wonder how many non-US players play on US, maybe the averages are higher than you first think.

 

But yes, I'm a part of that "tiny minority" and I'm saying that the Rocketeer is good for lag and is easy for people who experience lag, to adapt to the game. 

It's unreasonable for a game experience to be tailored around a small number of people playing on 300+ ping. It simply does not make sense to make the game worse for the rest of the popultation. If the population playing at 300+ ping is large enough, it's sensible to include a server closer to them, so they dont have to play at 300 ping anymore, but that's about it

 

You keep Hellfires because people like to use them, that makes the game better.  They are also a weapon that new players and players with high pings can get a handle on quickly, that also makes the game better.  Also, because Hellfires are different is another reason you keep them, games where everything functions the same are boring, another reason why the game is better because of them.

 

I use the Bruiser and Rocketeer as refreshing change of pace.  If you don't like them thats fine, nobody is making you use them.  You are probably right in that they really don't make you a better player like a Scout or Raider but being the best player isn't the point, having fun is.

In what way do they make the game better? In what way does having people not learn how to aim make the game better? If I have a weapon that follows you around shooting you in the back until you blow up, does that make the game better because it is different?