153 replies to this topic

[Anichkov3]

 

Actually, as HugeGuts suggested, the laser guiding would be the best idea - but for a TOW http://en.wikipedia....wiki/BGM-71_TOW  

 

It will be interesting to see how well you take aim to scout....

[M4st0d0n]

You cant stomp a server with a Rocketeer. Especially if it's one of those players who took an arrow in their ping. 6 Rocketeers can reveal the crappy map design, but one alone cant wipe a server.

 

As for the aiming issue.

You cant alpha strike with hellfires. Period. You need to use you primary and it's right now often dealing more damage than the hellfires. So you need to aim, quite a lot, if you're using EOC and HEAT. Last Hellfire tweak was about the short range homing and it made the locking useless in CQC. So no more sharp bending around corners.

 

I dont know why they nerfed that. And buffed Seeker. It's so absurd. I guess bad feedback is bad.

[M4st0d0n]

This whole lazer guided idea is bad IMO. It's like making a burst weapon sustained. It's gimmicky. Hellfire bending was a true unique gameplay.

[LU0P10]

. It's gimmicky. Hellfire bending was a true unique gameplay.

Of course it is - no other developers have had the nerves to implement such a bull_shait into a game. 

[M4st0d0n]

There is plenty of games that implemented plenty of bullsheit. Not only lock on. Now in a shooter you can heal yourself while being invisible and sniping with bodyshots while seeing trough walls. Welcome to 2015.

 

Now if you are gonna quote me do it with the full phrases.

 

This whole lazer guided idea is bad IMO. It's like making a burst weapon sustained. It's gimmicky. Hellfire bending was a true unique gameplay.

 

It was not a crazy empowering feature of Hawken. People complains about the lack of aim required. Fair enough. Reduce time to lock on to zero so it's the same as a hitscan. They reduced the skillceiling of the mech enough already.

[vonbach]

I always found hellfires weak. I'd rather have a TOW any day.

[opicr0n]

Of course it is - no other developers have had the nerves to implement such a bull_shait into a game. 

 

Clearly you never played Titanfall.. AUTOPISTOL?!

[Meraple]

It's your opinion. But my opinion is that people who use hits?an weapons (which is all bullet weapons) can not condemn homing weapons. 

After all, you are competent in the game arming, right? So you can answer me how long it takes between the start of the first shot Hellfire targeting and the beginning of the second shot has targeting Hellfire? Well, can result in an example comparison with what some of proliferation of weapons ... (pointing at the same time the damage of one hit)...

And remind people shoot from hits?an weapons that to Seeker took aim it should be accurately in the crosshairs (and then remember that the rocket still need to reach the goal, as opposed to the bullet).

I'm not too sure what some of those things mean, so I'm sorry if you meant certain things differently then I take them.

Feel free to correct me with your next post if so.

 

In terms of aiming I'm only half-decent, it's the reason I mainly use Vulcan Assault atm.

 

I'm not sure what your question right thereafter is.

Something about Hellfire reload times compared to hitscan weapons?

Well, if so, it's a Secondary which typically have high reload times.

There's the big SABOT if you want to make a comparison between Secondaries.

 

Seeker:

About the target having to be accurately in your crosshairs, I'm pretty sure it doesn't have to be right in the middle of it in order to home in.

Somewhere inside the reticule is enough from what I remember.

Accurate hitscan weapons like SABOT may hit the target instantaneously, but require you to point exactly at your target.

This means it'll miss if you're not exactly on the target, whereas a Seeker will still home in.

 

Hellfire:

I'm REALLY sure you don't have to look exactly on your target, and that somewhere near it is good enough to acquire a lock.

 

I haven't played Rocketeer in a while, hence the ''I'm pretty sure'' and ''I'm really sure'' instead of pointing them out as facts.

[LU0P10]

Clearly you never played Titanfall.. AUTOPISTOL?!

Yeah... I forgot that LOL

[AxionOperandi]

In what way do they make the game better? In what way does having people not learn how to aim make the game better? If I have a weapon that follows you around shooting you in the back until you blow up, does that make the game better because it is different?

I just gave several reasons why they make the game better. 

 

Yeah, they follow you, thats what they are supposed to do.  Just a few posts ago you started they are easy to evade so whats the problem?  I personally find trying to evade them an interesting challenge so yeah even I'm not the one using them I think they make the game better.  

 

As to the lack of skill involved using them; sure if thats all a particular player every plays but very few people are going to do that.

Edited by AxionOperandi, 04 April 2015 - 10:02 AM.

[JeffMagnum]

My opinion from a topic I posted in awhile ago, because I don't feel like rewriting everything:

 

Hellfires are probably the hardest thing in the game to get right, and honestly, I don't think it's even feasible to balance them in their current implementation. Unless they get a major buff, they're always going to be useless in high-level play due to the heavy reliance on cover, but a buff necessary to make them viable there would be them ridiculously OP against worse players. A powerful heat-seeking/low(ish)-skill missile launcher gives rise to a really dumb meta in pubs that's frustrating to everyone on the receiving end of a team fielding 3-6 HF mechs. At best, matches devolve into boring stalemates, and at worst, one team gets completely rolled <10 to 40 because their skills aren't developed enough yet to know how to counter HF spam.

 

It'd be easier to find a place that works for Hellfires if Bunker, Bazaar, and Last Eco (to a lesser extent) all got revised, but unless that happens, it's pointless to play around with adjustments barring a complete mechanic rework. I'd rather HFs be weak against top players than have a single weapon completely dominate the lower-tier meta. Aside from the obvious issues that come with one thing defining that, everyone relying on the same weapon that quickly becomes useless against better enemies makes personal improvement much harder.  

[Beemann]

I just gave several reasons why they make the game better. 

 

Yeah, they follow you, thats what they are supposed to do.  Just a few posts ago you started they are easy to evade so whats the problem?  I personally find trying to evade them an interesting challenge so yeah even I'm not the one using them I think they make the game better.  

 

As to the lack of skill involved using them; sure if thats all a particular player every plays but very few people are going to do that.

No, you made assertions, and I asked you for your reasoning behind them

My "gun that follows you" idea was more of a drone based thing. It's unique, and it basically automatically kills you. Is that an okay contribution to the game because it's different? Or is being different not suitable for "making the game better"?

The fact that they are easily avoided by good players doesn't make them somehow less broken, it actually makes the situation worse

 

Imagine you're trying to play sports with your friends and you're not very good. Someone constructs a ruling whereby the guy who is the best at kicking the ball into the top right hand corner of the net will walk over to you while everyone waits, and take any shots on net you get close enough to take

This works against players who maybe cant reach the ball, or dont know the tendency of the player, but for everyone that does, it's trivially easy to stop the attempt

This is doubly concerning, because you're being handicapped in a way that allows you to not actually learn to take proper shots on net. There's no point where you're practicing while that ruling is in place, since you're not the one actually taking shots on net

 

So yeah, explain how the simple fact of being different makes the game better. Explain how allowing players to ignore one of the core skillsets of a shooter makes the game (a shooter) better.

[Fantus_Longhorn]

So yeah, explain how the simple fact of being different makes the game better. Explain how allowing players to ignore one of the core skillsets of a shooter makes the game (a shooter) better.

The truth is that they don't make the game 'better'. They serve a purpose of introducing a less experienced player to a game and allowing for some easy kills against other less experienced players who are, in all likelihood, using a similarly 'friendly' weapon. Once the player has a bit more experience and starts to come across better players, they will soon learn that they can be dodged pretty easily and that they need to learn to use more precise weapons (but you already know this). 

 

The flaw with the Hellfires is that there is no variant of the weapon which requires more skill to use so they just stay as this pseudo-aimbot and the Rocketeer and Bruiser end up being redundant in higher-tier play. Alongside this is some bad map design which makes the Hellfire a go-to weapon for spamming the sky with rockets.

 

TL:DR; a player should move away from this kind of weapon but there's no variant to move to, that is what I believe is the issue. How you fix that? I'm not sure.

[HawkenItUp]

I LOVE hellfires.  Why remove a weapon just because it has advantages in an open map?  Use it yourself (or the snipers).  They don't have advantages in Wreckage.  By your thoughts, in Wreckage, I would request burst damage removal.

Edited by HawkenItUp, 04 April 2015 - 12:52 PM.

[KilleR_OrigiNs]

Redacted.

Edited by KilleR_OrigiNs, 30 April 2015 - 10:01 PM.

[(KDR) Seron16]

As an avid player of both the CRT and the Rocketeer, (Hence a large amount of experience with both the TOW and the Hellfires), I feel I should chime in.

 

First off, Hellfires right now are BROKEN. But not broken in terms of damage, or reload speed, etc, but in terms of the weapon itself. Much of the time the rockets don't even follow the target, or they lose their lock-on halfway through launch, or just fly straight, or just disappear on the other side of the hill, never to be heard from again. Many times when fighting Hellfires I can just walk to the right of left a bit and laugh as they entirely miss my mech. So while a small change to their heat production, damage, reload, etc could be in order (buff or nerf on case by case basis), none of that should be done until the tracking system of the Hellfires is reworked.

 

It used to be that when by angling and timing your Hellfire shots correctly you could get them over or around objects, or anticipate an enemy's dodge, as they were SEEKING missiles. That was a long time ago however, and is unfortunately no longer the case due to the current tracking system.

 

Now they are very effective only when in a large open space (which they should be), which causes people to still complain about them. However, when fighting a Rocketeer or Bruiser you should utilize cover and not engage the enemy in open spaces, just as you should not try to engage a TOW or Grenade Launcher equipped enemy in a tight hallway (Which are very effective in those situations)! Unlike TOWs or GLs however, which are still relatively effective if used correctly in large, maneuverable, open spaces, Hellfires are NOT due to the current, terrible tracking system.

 

So in other words, think about the Hellfires in terms of the other secondary weapons before suggesting they are overpowered or require an overhaul in terms of damage or they're basic utility. Plus, the Rocketeer is supposed to be a suppression mech, and its not as easy to kill with it as some on the receiving end think. Just my two cents. ^^

Edited by Seron16, 04 April 2015 - 01:21 PM.

[Beemann]

The truth is that they don't make the game 'better'. They serve a purpose of introducing a less experienced player to a game and allowing for some easy kills against other less experienced players who are, in all likelihood, using a similarly 'friendly' weapon. Once the player has a bit more experience and starts to come across better players, they will soon learn that they can be dodged pretty easily and that they need to learn to use more precise weapons (but you already know this). 

 

The flaw with the Hellfires is that there is no variant of the weapon which requires more skill to use so they just stay as this pseudo-aimbot and the Rocketeer and Bruiser end up being redundant in higher-tier play. Alongside this is some bad map design which makes the Hellfire a go-to weapon for spamming the sky with rockets.

 

TL:DR; a player should move away from this kind of weapon but there's no variant to move to, that is what I believe is the issue. How you fix that? I'm not sure.

Automatic weapons already serve this purpose, which is why the Assault/CRT is the starter mech. Large AOE with low damage and continuous fire weapons are already very forgiving

I think the solution is to make the hellfires scale better (and I've been saying that since the early days), and the only way to do that is to replace lockon

 

Technician has the same problem, and it's annoying because it's a problem that was solved before beam heals became a big thing that everyone and their mother wanted to include in their class based shooter

 

@Seron16

Hellfires have nearly always had some minor functionality issue in their tracking. It's either been way too good, or one or more rockets veer off course for no reason. Better methods of suppression used in other titles include, but are not limited to, large AOE that can be relatively easily avoided barring some coordination on the part of teammates, abilities that affect the area around the player in question, and effects that reduce combat efficiency rather than dealing pure damage. Hawken has been especially neglecting the last option, which would allow another metric for weapon balance that isn't based around initial burst or DPS

[BIsmuthZornisse]

one thing i would like to be implemented, is an indicator for when to dodge locked hellfires. that would make dealing with multiple hellfire users simultaneously easier, since one or more might be offscreen. and since the mech can detect being locked-on to and when the missiles are being actually fired, it doesn't seem like stretch for the mech to calculate distance between it and the homing missiles.

 

the big problem that i see with hellfires isn't the weapon itself, but the amount of open space (at which homing weapons excel) some maps (especially bunker) have. bunker needs some more spires to lead to cover against missiles.

i'd actually be in favor of improving the turning/tracking abilty of the hellfire missiles, but reducing the damage for this weapon.

 

also, i find removing a weapon or, anything else, really, because "it doesn't take skill to use" to be an unacceptably elitist reason.

an easy to use weapon is only a problem if it completely outclasses difficult to use weapons (when the latter is used by someone who is really good with it).

[Dawn_of_Ash]

It's unreasonable for a game experience to be tailored around a small number of people playing on 300+ ping. It simply does not make sense to make the game worse for the rest of the popultation. If the population playing at 300+ ping is large enough, it's sensible to include a server closer to them, so they dont have to play at 300 ping anymore, but that's about it

 

No, it'd be "unreasonable" if the small number of people who were playing on 300+ ping did not make up a not so small percentage of the community. In Hawken's case small number does not mean small percentage because we've got a small (but possibly growing) player-base. I'd also like to again mention that the lagging community is not as small as you think. I've been on the US servers when it is around 1-4 in the morning for most US people - and I saw an entire server filled with lagging people.

 

But have you played Hawken with at least 200+ ping? Do you know that you have to do EVERYTHING with a part of a second before they actually happen. To put that in perspective, you would be dodging a TOW before it's even shot in some cases. Talk about TOW, they are unforgiving with lag - slow travel time, nothing smart about them but having the ability to detonate them mid-air + that extra lag you've got. When I use them on a US server, I literally have be close to them, in the air, aiming at the ground around their feet

 

And could you please tell me what weapon would be the substitute for the removal of Hellfires? Too many mechs have the other ones, and the Rocketeer would lose what it is if you take out the Secondary and replace it with something else. To invent another Secondary weapon, the devs would first need to finish their never-ending list of things to do which - to be blunt - are more needed to than some debate about a Secondary.

 

Anyways, that point about Hellfires OP on low-ranked servers do not compare to smurfs. People who smurf ruin the game for new players - not some secondary weapon.

Edited by Dawn_of_Ash, 04 April 2015 - 03:31 PM.

[Neraste]

For having been playing my beloved Rocketeer a long time (~200 hrs), been insulted a lot because of this, and also been playing  other mechs against this one more than this, it's still funny for me to see how some people dislike Hellfires that much.

 

Yes, it can lock you and follow you almost wherever you flee and it requires less precision to aim... But well, those homing missiles ends very often on walls rather than on their target, because the tracking algorithm is weak: no obstacle consideration, large turning radius, prone to lost the target easily... RP speaking, those missiles are weak; but if the points I've mentioned were corrected, they'd become insanely OP (and it's a game, not a real life war). Also, Hellfires are the only weapon which ring a bell in your target's cockpit, saying: "hey, I'm coming to bring you chocolate, you've 3 seconds to hide!" What often drives me nut are rather SS/Reaper shots: the time you hear it, it's too late and you've lost a significant amount of life. Or grenades: you never know where it comes from, but it always ends in your face...

 

So IMHO, yes Hellfires seem to be OP because of target tracking, but there are compensations to make them avoidable, thus making them OK weapons. After, it's up to the pilot to overcome those limitations and make the best with them (curve shots, refrain to fire with lock on, think before firing). I can't say Hellfires are perfect the way they are, but there are clearly other weapons I fear far more on the battlefield, even on Bunker.

[(KDR) Seron16]

Yes, it can lock you and follow you almost wherever you flee and it requires less precision to aim... But well, those homing missiles ends very often on walls rather than on their target, because the tracking algorithm is weak: no obstacle consideration, large turning radius, prone to lost the target easily... RP speaking, those missiles are weak; but if the points I've mentioned were corrected, they'd become insanely OP (and it's a game, not a real life war). Also, Hellfires are the only weapon which ring a bell in your target's cockpit, saying: "hey, I'm coming to bring you chocolate, you've 3 seconds to hide!" What often drives me nut are rather SS/Reaper shots: the time you hear it, it's too late and you've lost a significant amount of life. Or grenades: you never know where it comes from, but it always ends in your face...

 

The above exactly. Meant to make a point that sniper rifles and long range guns are ever more deadly in open spaces than Hellfires, and many times much harder to dodge, but forgot to.

 

And "hey, I'm coming to bring you chocolate, you've 3 seconds to hide!"   is now my favorite quote for this week. :)

 

I agree with you Beeman that's the tracking has never been very good (though to me it seems its gotten worse since the CBs and the beginning of OB). As for better means of suppression, that's starting to veer into a different topic, but yes, there are other kinds of suppression weapons that could be implemented, but Hawken has always been more of a classic FPS (UT, Quake, even Halo to a point) kind of feel, so ignoring the bloody tech, weapons are all about doing damage.

[Odinous]

and bla bla bla,hellfire this,hellfire that...COME OOOON,they are weak,they can be dodged..Only on bunker they are pain in the ass,but again,you have the hills,you can still dodge em(unless the rocketeers are 2..).Rocketeer in high tiers is like a big cake w8ing for you to bite it..If someone gets close to you u are toasted..Like it or not,many pilots enjoying that mech,but its not op,its weapons are not op.so leave the poor mech be..

Edited by Odinous, 04 April 2015 - 07:14 PM.

[(KDR) Seron16]

and bla bla bla,hellfire this,hellfire that...COME OOOON,they are weak,they can be dodged..Only on bunker they are pain in the ass,but again,you have the hills,you can still dodge em(unless the rocketeers are 2..).Rocketeer in high tiers is like a big cake w8ing for you to bite it..If someone gets close to you u are toasted..Like it or not,many pilots enjoying that mech,but its not op,its weapons are not op.so leave the poor mech be..

 

Keep in mind these forums are for discussion on the game and its myriad of parts.

 

However, your point is true in response to the original OP's point.

[Nightfirebolt]

Hellfire damage can be entirely avoided if you're in an A-Mech by side dodging at the last second. B-Mechs can do the same and avoid almost all of the damage. C-Mechs can't, but they do have the hit points to compensate.

 

The best "counter" for Hellfires, though, is to get in cover. Even on Bunker this is not hard to do.

 

(This has probably been said a dozen times in this thread, but I just didn't have time to scan through 3 pages.)

Edited by Nightfirebolt, 05 April 2015 - 12:49 AM.

[Meraple]

First off, Hellfires right now are BROKEN. But not broken in terms of damage, or reload speed, etc, but in terms of the weapon itself. Much of the time the rockets don't even follow the target, or they lose their lock-on halfway through launch, or just fly straight, or just disappear on the other side of the hill, never to be heard from again. Many times when fighting Hellfires I can just walk to the right of left a bit and laugh as they entirely miss my mech. So while a small change to their heat production, damage, reload, etc could be in order (buff or nerf on case by case basis), none of that should be done until the tracking system of the Hellfires is reworked.

 

I played Rocketeer with 3 other people in my team yesterday, and none of those issues you listed there arose for me.

(4 Seekerteers with 2 Techs for reasons, lol)

 

I did however, manage to get 2 Hellfire missiles to track a target without even locking on while the rest just flew straight as they were supposed to.

[teeth_03]

I find that my Bruiser with the Vulcan is ok-ish in CQC, I spam dead-fired Hellfires at the ground for splash damage and use the Vulcan to finish them off.

I have much better luck with that than using Hellfires on more open maps.

[MomOw]

I checked yesterday, hellfire missiles are pretty slow (compared to corsair shot), and don't do good burst.

I mean, they are pretty weak when you are not auto-aiming, I think something should be done when you don't auto-aim such as increase the missile speed (?), or have something like an auto-aim on the run which could require strict timing.

Edited by MomOw, 05 April 2015 - 04:53 AM.

[hoghead]

I wish they would open the maps a little more, take down some of the barriers.  

[Anichkov3]

Hellfire damage can be entirely avoided if you're in an A-Mech by side dodging at the last second. B-Mechs can do the same and avoid almost all of the damage. C-Mechs can't, but they do have the hit points to compensate.

 

The best "counter" for Hellfires, though, is to get in cover. Even on Bunker this is not hard to do.

 

(This has probably been said a dozen times in this thread, but I just didn't have time to scan through 3 pages.)

I repeat again.

 

 From Hellfire "purely" an emphasis on open terrain can even mech C-Class.

[Pixues]

Auto aim mechanics for shooters is just dumb.

 

Whats next? Self driving cars in race games?

 

(the smart pistol in titanfall pissed me off so much...so do hellfires)

[Bergwein]

Easy solution would be just place a couple structures on top of bunker hills

 

THIS.

[M4st0d0n]

I played Rocketeer with 3 other people in my team yesterday, and none of those issues you listed there arose for me.

(4 Seekerteers with 2 Techs for reasons, lol)

 

I did however, manage to get 2 Hellfire missiles to track a target without even locking on while the rest just flew straight as they were supposed to.

 

Yes, partial lockon leads to that sometimes.

 

Also, bear in mind there are things you see clientside and things happening serverside. If I have 100ms ping, and you have 100ms ping, dont think you're safe dashing behind a wall if the hellfire volley is timed to reg before your dash.

 

It reminds me of the time devs said TOWs spiraling around an axis was purely cosmetic. They registered in straight line. The spoon wasnt real anymore.

[-Tj-]

Coming from both sides of the discussion, I think Hellfires are both a pain in the arse and a bit weak.

 

Pain in the arse:

They've always been an annoyance to me as an Infil or Pred, since locking is extremely simple. Click middle button, sweep, instantly lock onto the first thing it finds, cloaked or not, and fire away. Personally, I find this too rewarding to any player.

 

A bit weak:

They're slow, have low splash damage and radius, can't be remote-detonated, are buggy (not all missiles lock all the time), and have a rather relaxed tracking curve. They used to track harder, and differently, varying depending on when changes were made. I remember a video, I think it was a BSB vid, where a Rocketeer curved Hellfires around the base of the radar tower in Uptown to score a kill. Pretty sure it was Mexichan, and it was incredibly impressive. The current Hellfires can't do that, afaik. That said, they're not so weak that they can't get kills, they're just extremely situational. Some of the old tracking was too strong. The current tracking isn't bad.

 

Changes I would be ok with coming from both sides, both as a target and as a Hellfire-firing pilot:

I wouldn't mind seeing damage buffs to the Hellfires providing the locking mechanism is nerfed a bit. Right now, there's basically no skill requirement to lock and fire. It's way too easy, and it's been this way for as long as I can remember. I don't even think anything different was ever tried in the time I've been playing since CB2. All I ever remember being changed was the way the missiles track, damage amount, and the way the missile cluster was launched.

 

I would find something like this to be more interesting:

Locking:

1: press MMB to activate locking, stays active for 500ms or so; pressing it again restarts the counter

2: sweep/keep reticle over a target; the first target found is the target to be locked onto

3: keep reticle over target for a total of 250ms or so (non-continuous, so the reticle doesn't have to constantly be on the target)

4: lock is achieved, press RMB to fire; lock stays active as long as the locked mech stays visible and within a certain radius of the reticle, otherwise lock is lost after 1 second.

 

Lock damage strength:

Missiles become armed (full-power) only when closer to the intended target. Otherwise, damage is a fraction of full strength and splash damage. In other words, if another mech happens to intercept the missiles mid-flight, they do less damage, unless they're close enough to the original locked mech. This also means if the missiles are fired into a wall, they don't do as much self damage.

 

Dumbfire:

Hellfires fire as they do now, but they do full damage and max splash radius.

 

Damage buff:

I wouldn't want the damage to be too much more than it is now. They do a good amount of damage now when all missiles hit, and I've gotten quite a few satisfying kills with them. Any damage increases should be done to help offset the longer lock time and low projectile speed.

 

Anyway, them's my ideas. I figure this is something more akin to something I'd want to play against and play as. Adds a little more skill to their use and makes them slightly less annoying while also making them a little more useful.

[Scow2]

At some point, it kinda needs to be said.
New players have to learn how to lead, track, strafejump, bhop, skii, juke, arc nades, time grenade/rocket/disk/etc. jumps, manage ammo, manage health, manage pickups, pay attention to positioning  and many more things depending on the game they're playing. These aspects are integral to the design of the games they appear in. You really do have to learn these mechanics becasuse they're part of the game you're choosing to play. So long as they're appropriately explained/taught, there shouldn't be an issue
 
Now in this case, I feel the issue is the implication that weapons that aim for you are needed in a shooter, where the absolute integral mechanic is shooting. While homing weapons in shooters do exist, they fundamentally work against the core design philosophy, much in the way that fighting games are about appropriate move/combo usage and RTS's are about managing units and resources. If you have those aspects on autopilot, what's the point? Why not just go full Armored Core (which I would not consider a shooter so much as an action game) and have most things automatically hit to locked on targets but then have a few weapons that work off of older systems (read: manual aim) with larger payloads
 
I think the fact that Hellfires are so easily dodged only adds to this. Why would you want to keep a weapon that is only good for stomping on people who don't know the timing? In what way does this make the game better? Ping is definitely an issue, but design should be based around average ping if anything, rather than a tiny minority of 300+ ping outliers

And I have to disagree with your assessment, largely because there are so many skills that a new player needs to learn. Yes, you need to master all of those skills to a high degree of perfection in order to be a high-ranked player. But demanding that everyone develop all those skills in equal measure at all levels of play is beyond unreasonable. Hawken is not only for 300+ hour MMR 2500+ veterans.
 
In fact, I don't think any game has a core design philosophy as narrow as you demand it to be. There are some characters in fighting games that have very simple/effective/intuitive/'autopilot' moves/combos, with greater focus on secondary and tertiary skills like timing, spacing, movement, and attack vector control. There are some RTS games with factions/units that de-emphasize resource and troop management in favor of army composition, time management, and map control. 
 
Hellfires and seekers make the game better because they help the game accommodate a much broader spectrum of playstyles and skill levels. And connection speeds.
 

In what way do they make the game better? In what way does having people not learn how to aim make the game better? If I have a weapon that follows you around shooting you in the back until you blow up, does that make the game better because it is different?

If you're in an area of the game where people don't have to learn to aim, it means you yourself have serious deficiencies in play, and should probably try a mech that de-emphasizes your strong suits (Such as precise aiming) in favor of where you're weak (Timing and positioning?) - which you can't really do if you're trying to focus on timing AND positioning AND movement AND precise aiming - so grab a mech that de-emphasizes/automates one of those skills, and start practicing on its more critical skills.
 
Or, it means that the person has learned to vastly excel in OTHER important skills in the game, such as positioning and timing. You can't fuzzy bunny at them to 'git gud', because they are good (At least as good as you), if they have mastered the limitations of the mech's auto-lockon to be a threat, and you can't keep them shut down.
 
You said it yourself - HAWKEN requires players to be able to 

lead, track, strafejump, bhop, skii, juke, arc nades, time grenade/rocket/disk/etc. jumps, manage ammo, manage health, manage pickups, pay attention to positioning  and many more things

 
And Lock-on weapons don't interfere with learning any of those skills. Every mech has a different emphasis on skillset, and precise aiming is just one of those skillsets - which can be offset by extra skill in another area. Complaining that lock-on weapons are cheap because they don't require 'aiming' is like saying sustained hitscan weapons are cheap/UnHAWKEN because they don't require leading or managing timing, and A-Class mechs are unHAWKEN because they don't require managing health (Because they have none), and any mech with a TOW missile is unHAWKEN because it doesn't require learning how to arc shots and that airburst lets people not have to aim precisely because they can still splash with a miss/etc.
 
 

Auto aim mechanics for shooters is just dumb.
 
Whats next? Self driving cars in race games?
 
(the smart pistol in titanfall pissed me off so much...so do hellfires)

You mean the pistol that helped players get into the game because they allowed players to learn critical skills other than aiming, such as

lead, track, strafejump, bhop, skii, juke, arc nades, time grenade/rocket/disk/etc. jumps, manage ammo, manage health, manage pickups, pay attention to positioning  and many more things

while falling out of favor in high-skill games because it was weak and unrealiable at those levels?

A more apt racing game comparison is more like automatic transmission vs. Manual shifting, or a heavy powerhouse musclecar driver bitching at zippy sportscar drivers about the latter's tighter handling and faster acceleration (Which might as well be 'self-driving' since they don't have the same high skill ceiling/low skill floor as the muscle car's drifting and speed management)

Balance needs to be appraised holistically, across ALL skill levels, maps, and gametypes - not tunnel-visioned on a single map at a single skill level in a single gametype. And, if there are imbalances in one area balanced out in another, it's not a problem.

Edited by Scow2, 05 April 2015 - 09:10 AM.

[(KDR) Seron16]

Too many good points above to quote all of them. 

 

However, one point I think should be pushed is that currently one can only slightly curve rockets by aiming at an angle away from the mech because the lock disappears so fast and is weak at that. So the "skills" that used to come with curving Hellfires in non pro-Hellfire terrain (I'm looking at you Origin bases) are already nearly gone...

 

@Meraple That's interesting. Were you keeping direct locks and were you on a more open map or not? I and other pilots I've run with have had this problem, (Granted my disappearing over the hill quip was a bit sarcastic but the others were not),so its weird you didn't notice it at all.

[Nightfirebolt]

I really hope the devs don't remove Hellfires like a lot of people are suggesting. They're my favourite weapon.

 

I also hope they don't remove Bunker from the map rotation. It's my favourite map.

 

Yes, that's right, you read me correctly.

 

Why? I guess because Hellfires feel like the classic LRM missiles from Battletech, and that's freaking badass. And Bunker feels like a classic Battletech map. And this IS a mech game, and these elements SHOULD be in the game, and removing them would push the game even further into the standard cookie-cutter arena shooter that Adhesive was starting to lean toward in the last days.

 

In short, if we remove Hellfires and Bunker, you probably won't lose me as a player, but I'll be very disappointed. Especially since Hellfires are not overpowered - they have, in fact, been nerfed practically into oblivion. Hellfires are pretty much completely absent in top-tier matches, and there's a reason for that. They're slow, you can see and hear them coming, you can dodge them easily, their damage is unimpressive.

 

I remember the Hellfires from pre-ascension - they were savage. Getting hit by a full salvo did more damage than a TOW, as I recall, and people had a right to be angry. But now they're almost useless. I don't even know why we're even having a discussion about them being too powerful.

Edited by Nightfirebolt, 05 April 2015 - 02:31 PM.

[(KDR) Seron16]

I think most of us agree its not OP at this point, we are more just discussing other facets of the weapon now.

[Onstrava]

I have a quick fix that you should put some thought into. This is it:

1. increase the splash damage radius of hellfires
2. increase the projectile speed of hellfires
3. remove the ability to lock on to targets

This way those people that like hellfires will actually have to aim to hit there target but they also get to have a unique missile that does splash damage (cluster missile like). While not making the change unfavorable or overpowered to anybody.

[VYR3]

I want the Seeker and the Hellfire's lockon capabilities removed and give them something better. skilless weapons like those shouldnt be in a game like this. Also, removing their ability to lock on will make players who main that mech on servers where they get 300+ ping so they can kill people without having to worry about taking damage leave to go play in their own region and get better.

 

give the seeker laser guidence or make it like a rapid fire heat cannon, and make the hellfire's function like a low damage, rapid fire TOW missile launcher.

 

get rid of skilless weapons and make something actually fun to use.

[(KDR) Seron16]

Gah, I've been playing with and against Hellfires and every other weapon for years, these are not "skilless" weapons, their lock-on abilities do not need to be removed, and to those who enjoy them, they are fun weapons (Every weapon in the game so far to me is fun, even if I find that I think its a terrible weapon for me.)

 

Next I'll be hearing that the Scout ability is skillless because all you do is hit F and you get extra fuel to do whatever you want!

 

Or the AR is no fun and skilless because all you do is click on the enemy and he immediately takes damage!

 

Or Radar is skilless because it tells you where people are without you doing anything!

 

How effectively you utilize and apply the available weapons, abilities, items, etc. in the game is what constitutes skill. Not if something in your relative perspective is easy or not hard to do.

 

 

--------------------------------

 

And if we were to change the Hellfires into multiple, smaller, Splashy TOWs, why not make the GL into a TOW that flies in an arc through the air but no longer bounces or can be remote detonated, and EOCs into TOWs that you can fire a few at a time or charge up and fire a few more but no longer stick as mines. Or the Vulcan into a TOW launcher that fires MicroTOWs but with no more mini-gun rapid fire rate. Or the Flak Launcher into a TOW Launcher that shoots fiery TOW bits but no longer gets its close range damage bonus. Hmm? 

Edited by Seron16, 05 April 2015 - 10:03 PM.