112 replies to this topic

[IareDave]

 He seems to think he is invincible up there.

 

 

You know as well as I do 

[Nept]

Woah Woah Woah buddy, don't get ahead of yourself. 

 

OHHHHHHH SNAPPLEBERRIES.  IT'S WORLD-FAMOUS LOC!

 

 

Here's an old vid of the kind of "high tier" really "awesome" tdm's we use to play. All that matters is health. These fights happen in smaller bursts in gamemodes like siege and Missile Assault. (Keep in mind this is before the TTK changes as well.) Theres a bunch more vids where we lose to Omni, if they get all self-conscious ill post em.   

 

This was played Feb, 2014. 

 

Doesn't count: I wasn't there.  Also, everyone who was there is now cut.

Edited by Nept, 31 March 2015 - 08:16 PM.

[opicr0n]

.. I've wandered into 1500 matches and come out on top using the G2 Assault by a large margin ..

 

I can come on top using the G2 assault in 2300mmr matches.

 

What are you trying to bring across with your example regarding the G2 assault?

[Leonhardt]

OHHHHHHH SNAPPLEBERRIES.  IT'S WORLD-FAMOUS LOC!

 

 

 

Doesn't count: I wasn't there.  Also, everyone who was there is now cut.

 

 

Looks like my schedule just got freed up! Woot!!

 

 

 

You know as well as I do 

 

That you die? Yes, sir! :D

Edited by Leonhardt, 01 April 2015 - 09:16 AM.

[M4st0d0n]

Really, you don't remember saying that I was dismanteling my argument of assassin's not being played as ADCs because they're in the solo lane?

 

I don't need to learn to read. You need to learn how to remember what you said.

 

Actually you can, especially when executes are not simply 9999/infinite damage. They are instant kills on targets below a certain health threshhold. If the target is not below that threshold then you cannot execute, and those ults will do significantly less damage than Ymirs. Both Ao Kuang and Thantos do less than 300 base damage at max rank on the Ultimates if they cannot execute. And executes don't even effectively do anything close to 9999 damage. At most, they'll be doing about 1400~ damage, which is around the 40% health threshhold on a fully built tank, and nearer to 800 on squishy targets.

Of course, all your blithering about ultimates is Red Herring fallacy nonsense, because it still doesn't change the fact that Ymir is a high damage guardian.

 

That does not disprove anything, because you're going on about the wrong issues. It doesn't matter if SMITE is a MOBA. It doesn't matter if it's not twitch based (Which is actually wrong. There are tons of twitch based mechanics in SMITE given the prevelance of skill shots and projectiles.).

What's being compared here is that higher level players can make certain things seem unbalanced in casual games that are balanced in high level play.

This is something that can happen regardless of genre.

You're trying to claim a fallacy of false equivelency, but you don't even understand the basics of what's being compared, and are going on about factors that are not relevant. You need to stop arguing because you obviously don't even fully understand what you're arguing about.

 

No, Stop. Please.

 

I think your brain is confounding meta in a moba with balance in a shooter. Smite is not twitch based. The few projectiles you have to throw are shot in a straight line at ground level in a 2D plane.

 

Maybe you could find a better analogy to fit why scouts in Hawken are able to wipe servers.

[GalaxyRadio]

Its the same problem you almost have in every game.

 

If a games needs skill, and its also struggeling because of high cost (HC), its breaking apart, cause skilled pilots stomps new players into hell and all i can hear in the chat is hacker/cheater/pay to win, so they go away, uninstall the game and loosing interesit. Another part is, if you have a game and its ending with someone have almost double or triple the points the second or third player have, the players at the bottom feels like trash.

 

So, most of the skilled pilots out there dont know understand what most of the new players feels like and most of the skilled player earned it because they have it from the beginning or earned it in the hard way, stayed, troubled and gat pained with fun after they got the skill to play againts good players. But most of the people just want to start the game, play 30-60min. and do this maybe in some days again. This way they have to spend month to get even 1-2 mechs with full loadout if they are lucky and win some rounds.

 

I want the game to be more tactical with more options to tune my mechs, BUT the major problem we have now is that this game is already in his "already" simple form TO complicate. So its not even possible to have just luck by killing some mechs with low HP, because even if you have low HP you can kill new player wihtout any problems most of the time and if i can do this, a extremely skilled pilot maybe manage to kill even 2 after he killed one before with half HP.

 

Right now this game is a mess for new player and not complicated enough for skilled players. What we need is to close this bridge, so skilled players, but also new player have fun, even if they kill skilled pilots by pure luck. So, the HP Pool must be reduced to make this game more casual.

 

This is something i dont wan't, but this game needs to be more enjoyable, more balanced and many things i already talked about in another thread.

 

Galaxy Radio

[IareDave]

 

 

Right now this game is a mess for new player and not complicated enough for skilled players. What we need is to close this bridge, so skilled players, but also new player have fun, even if they kill skilled pilots by pure luck. So, the HP Pool must be reduced to make this game more casual.

 

And yet, games such as UT & CS 1.6, two in particular that have significantly higher skill ceilings than Hawken, are still popular and have a casual/hardcore following. If Hawken wants to see a growth in population and player retention, then we need advertising and an easier grind so players can enjoy the game content without needing to spend money or dedicating hundreds of hours. Also, a reduction in HP pool would do very much the opposite of what you think. 

[GalaxyRadio]

And yet, games such as UT & CS 1.6, two in particular that have significantly higher skill ceilings than Hawken, are still popular and have a casual/hardcore following. If Hawken wants to see a growth in population and player retention, then we need advertising and an easier grind so players can enjoy the game content without needing to spend money or dedicating hundreds of hours. Also, a reduction in HP pool would do very much the opposite of what you think. 

 

 

The right thing is in the middle, not was elite or new player thinks. You talk like all what matters is almost what the elite says, but its not, because we are just a small population, but right now hawken is about 80% only veterans (on europe) and the rest get stomped all day long and disappear.

 

I agree with the rest, advertising, less grinding, faster content, but somehow devs have to make money and if people just play the game and don't pay any money.... well.

 

Galaxy Radio

Edited by GalaxyRadio, 01 April 2015 - 02:12 PM.

[moosa17]

Veteran players may know the game better than novice players (if that needs stating), but that doesn't mean they know how to balance or develop a game. You don't need to play 1000 hours to wrap your head around Hawken and where the nails are sticking out. 

I'd say a lot more could be learned from observing veterans than from listening to them.

[Nept]

Looks like my schedule just got freed up! Woot!!

 

You mean that schedule where you go into offline mode and play Dark Souls 2?

 

Snap.

[IareDave]

Veteran players may know the game better than novice players (if that needs stating), but that doesn't mean they know how to balance or develop a game. You don't need to play 1000 hours to wrap your head around Hawken and where the nails are sticking out.

.

Mind sharing a single reason why you feel that experienced players wouldn't be able to make accurate balance decisions? Also to answer your next statement, you do in fact need a lot hours in the game to determine where the 'nails are sticking out' as I have already explained through the scout and brawler examples.

Fact is, lesser skilled players sometimes make complaints about game content because they lack the necessary skill to counter said issue. This isn't to say everything they say is not a point of concern for the developers or the game meta, but this is to say that a player with a plethora of in game knowledge is more reliable when it comes to discussing broken or unfair mechanics.

[Nept]

Fact is, lesser skilled players sometimes make complaints about game content because they lack the necessary skill to counter said issue.

 

There's also the fact that people often want to blame everything but themselves when it comes to a loss.  It's much easier to argue that this or that is broken than it is to admit that your skills still have a ways to go.

[comic_sans]

There's also the fact that people often want to blame everything but themselves when it comes to a loss.  It's much easier to argue that this or that is broken than it is to admit that your skills still have a ways to go.

 

Welp that's half the forums and personal crises IRL in a nutshell.  

[Superkamikazee]

I'm not in favor of high level players making meta decisions, but I am all for high skill players assisting in balancing the game within a meta. At this point the devs should have a pretty good idea what's going to make the game successful and what isn't, I'd curious to hear what Capnjosh and company think the next step for Hawken will be.

[AsianJoyKiller]

No, Stop. Please.

 
I think your brain is confounding meta in a moba with balance in a shooter. Smite is not twitch based. The few projectiles you have to throw are shot in a straight line at ground level in a 2D plane.
 
Maybe you could find a better analogy to fit why scouts in Hawken are able to wipe servers.

Hahahahaha!
OMG! Do you actually believe ranked is the the same as competitive? That's insane. Even in ranked the matchmaker will put people two whole divisions below your division in with you. You can have variances of around 1000 ELO in ranked. To the point,that video demonstrates two Masters (and let's not forget that Lassiz is a professional player) ranked players pulling silly stunts against two mid ranked Diamonds, people who are objectively inferior.

Congratulations on further proving my point about how high ranked players can get away with nonsense against lower skilled people.

Also, you do understand that twitch gameplay is about reaction time, right? Not whether it takes place in 3d. Osu! is a twitch game. Completely 2d. Even chess can have a turn based element added to it by introducing a timer.

My analogy is fine, and it stands. Why are you so hellbent on making yourself look stupid?

[Leonhardt]

You mean that schedule where you go into offline mode and play Dark Souls 2?

 

Snap.

 

Ouch. I don't go into offline mode I just play at early hours or well I did until my sleep schedule got fixed...

[RhyKoSin]

I'm a newer player and scout is definitely OP. I used one for the first time and I believe I went 16-1 against players I struggled with the match before using pred and assault. The dmg combined with having half a brain to use the mobility is too powerful a combination. They are hard to aim at, impossible to run from, impossible to chase and damn near impossible to out-dps in close quarters combat. The flak cannon does nasty dmg with it's insane firing rate. All A-class are kind of like this though. I think that's why 99% of the lvl 30 players I see only pick scout and beserker. I would just say that it'd make sense if they were a bit weaker for how much maneuverability they have and dmg they dish out.

Edited by RhyKoSin, 09 April 2015 - 05:51 PM.

[Silverfire]

I'm level 30 and almost exclusively play C class (and Raider) and A classes crumple before my superior health.

[FlamingBeaker]

Just a reminder, it is possible in this game for a player to have played Hawken long enough to be level 30 and still have a low MMR, poor aiming and dodging skills, and use poor positioning in combat. Level does not necessarily indicate skill, only time played.

 

Suggestion: if you learn the timing of the dodge animation + how to airburst TOWs or grenades, the scouts become much less "OP".

Edited by FlamingBeaker, 09 April 2015 - 06:15 PM.

[Nightfirebolt]

I used to think that scout was overpowered, but then I got better and realized that it isn't. I dunno. Maybe it is - a tiiiiny bit. I don't necessarily think that it needs to have all of the most powerful weapons in the game, for instance. But I also realize that if it had anything less, it would fade into obscurity because of its other drawbacks.

 

When I finally got my own scout, I believed I would be able to own everyone without exception. But I can't, because that's not how scout works. Its tiny fuel tank, crappy air speed and fragility make it a lot harder to use than it looks. Make one mistake with scout and it's all over.

 

I have said it before, and I'll say it again - Hawken is one of the most balanced games out there. I understand why new players hate on the scout, but when they get better they'll realize it's not OP - it's just extremely good at shredding fresh meat.

 

But yeah. Sorry to talk about scouts again. I think dave has a good, balanced opinion in his original post, and that we need to address the concerns of top tier players and newbies alike. You'll never find a "perfect" common ground, but catering to the needs of only one or the other will prove problematic.

Edited by Nightfirebolt, 09 April 2015 - 07:01 PM.

[Nov8tr]

I lose because I'm old. My eye/hand coordination is not what it was, even 2 yrs ago. It's just a fact of life. (outside of people who feel they need mods to shore themselves up, lol.) I do great for my age and sometimes the body does remember and I can just annihilate. God I love when that happens. I miss doing it more often. Sigh. Still love playing. It would help if I played more high MMR's but I play everyone. It's ok, at least it keeps me from turning into a slug.

 

Oh and Loc is back eh? Woot. When it's a tite situation, call Loc_TR. For a LocTite solution. :P (Disclaimer: At your local dealer. Safe when used as directed. Please check your local laws for product legality. :P)

[Grizzled]

So, several times the OP uses veteran and high skilled player interchangeably. This is not the case, as the game has sped up, ping becomes VERY important, I think its more important that base skill. 

 

If the above is the case, then the OP is saying we should rely on those with the best ping. Clarification might help me wrap my head around it, but it reads very skewed to me. 

[dorobo]

Making everything equal is boring. Sometimes I just want to fight that better or easier to use mech and win to feel good about it. Is perfect balance even possible? Btw in mobas (at least in dota) you can't have two of the same characters in a match that way by choosing what to use players try to balance it out every game and in hawken you can have a team of 5 rocketters. 

[M4st0d0n]

5 rocketeers on Bunker. Or 2 techs 4 grens on Choketown. Or a full A team. Everytime you get multiple unbalanced mechs in a game it can lead to a lobsided weird game.

 

Hawken is not a MOBA. It's not a twitch based shooter. It's not a mech game. It's not a matter of reaching perfect balance or making the game competitive. It's just a matter of fixing what turns players away. Sadly, those who sticked to the game are not the best people to give feedback about that last point. Scout is not OP right now. It's still ridiculously safe and forgiving for a glass canon, with orblording and internals. But...

 

Obviously, it needs an armor increase of 20%. Because pacing and stuff and my MMR.

 

Facepalm.

[RhyKoSin]

5 rocketeers on Bunker. Or 2 techs 4 grens on Choketown. Or a full A team. Everytime you get multiple unbalanced mechs in a game it can lead to a lobsided weird game.

 

Hawken is not a MOBA. It's not a twitch based shooter. It's not a mech game. It's not a matter of reaching perfect balance or making the game competitive. It's just a matter of fixing what turns players away. Sadly, those who sticked to the game are not the best people to give feedback about that last point. Scout is not OP right now. It's still ridiculously safe and forgiving for a glass canon, with orblording and internals. But...

 

Obviously, it needs an armor increase of 20%. Because pacing and stuff and my MMR.

 

Facepalm.

 

I definitely don't think Scout needs an armor increase. The mini flak gives them insane dps when combined with the tow. They are extremely versatile in terms of options in 1v1. Make it a 2vScout and the scout will most likely be shredded. I only find it a bit OP because right now when I run into 4 scouts in a game, anyone piloting a c-class who can't maneuver is boned. I can see some faults to the scout but it in no way needs to be improved. It's strengths are obvious and the main cons are its lack of sustained mid-long range dmg and it's low armor. I won't even bring up mobility as I am comparing it to all mechs of all classes.

[M4st0d0n]

I definitely don't think Scout needs an armor increase. The mini flak gives them insane dps when combined with the tow. They are extremely versatile in terms of options in 1v1. Make it a 2vScout and the scout will most likely be shredded. I only find it a bit OP because right now when I run into 4 scouts in a game, anyone piloting a c-class who can't maneuver is boned. I can see some faults to the scout but it in no way needs to be improved. It's strengths are obvious and the main cons are its lack of sustained mid-long range dmg and it's low armor. I won't even bring up mobility as I am comparing it to all mechs of all classes.

 

With a full A team on your side on the larger maps dont even bother pulling a C. With the random spawn system you'll be harvested by the enemy blob every life while the others are relocating.

[Bad_BennyAK]

Successful games that feature player-versus-player content are balanced with the input of the highest skilled players, while also taking into consideration the experience of new players and more importantly the direction the developers want to take there game. Now, before you mutter to yourself 'elitist scum!' and disregard everything I'm about to say I encourage you to hear me out.

Let's take a step back and look at two very popular mainstream games:LoL & CS (League of Legends & Counter Strike). Both games are simple enough so casual players can hop in from time to time and have fun without feeling overwhelmed, and yet they are complex enough so that hardcore players can feel motivated to climb up the rankings and compete with other highly skilled players. Do you think these highly competitive games are going to balance themselves based on the opinions of new or lesser skilled players? Mind you, these are games that have tournaments where players face off against each other for thousands of dollars. The answer is no, simply because higher skilled players are able to use the in-game content to its highest potential, and thus, they have a better understanding of the game meta and the strengths and weaknesses of said content. I say this not to belittle the opinions of newer players. In fact, there opinions are just as important because developers need to take a careful eye as to the experience fresh players have with their game if they want it to be successful and inviting. Josh has already started to make the experience of new players better by giving them game content which gives them more survivability(can't link the thread with mobile) to help them learn the game at a more satisfying rate.

To give you some examples, take a look around the forum and you'll notice a lot of concerns over the scout (if you were a member of old forum you know what I'm talking about). Many players consider it to be OP because it's 'too' fast, deals too much damage etc. what is the General consensus of the competitive community? It's a solid mech, but it is very squishy, has a very low fuel tank, and it's weaponry requires you to have a very good understanding of positioning and movement if you want to compete with it against mechs such as the assault piloted by players who miss much less often than newer players. Thus, the skill level needed to pilot it is much higher when faced against better players so it is only used by a select few( if you participated in TPG you know very few people ran scout). Another mech that I've seen people talk about on here is the Brawler, and how underpowered it is. An individual even claimed that during his absence from hawken he or she noticed the brawler recieved a 'nerfhammer', and is far too slow to be viable. What do the competitive players believe? It's one of the strongest mechs in the game, and it was very uncommon for players not to have a brawler on there team for the first season of TPG.

Ultimately, balance is a very fragile thing. I encourage the developers to play the game, and reach a high level of skill so that you understand the game and the strengths and weaknesses of the in-game content. I'm not asking you to compete with the highest level players, but right now you are at a crossroads between two opposing sides who feel different ways about the game balance and I believe that once you develop a good understanding of the game you will know the right decision.

This is perhpas the best post I've read,  among many great posts.    Thank you, IareDave!   

 

The thing that struck me in my first few weeks of playing this game, was the WIDELY varying styles of mechs, loadouts, specials, etc.,   that FORCE you to learn to play different styles.   As opposed to my friend (The sniper fanatic)  who loves his PS4 Destiny,  (I know, I know.   Let's have an intervention.)  Destiny,  among other games,  Gives you a few generic frameworks,  and baits you with carrot and stick goodies, powerups,  relics,  etc,  to allow you to expand or customize your combat experience to your preference.  Consequently,  you may play Destiny without ever experiencing more than 2 or 3 play styles.    

 

Hawken was a B****!!!   Maxing my mechs up,  the ones I HATED the most, were the Scout,  the Raider,  and the Brawler, initially.   It FORCED me into playing styles I wasn't comfortable with.  Up close in your face.   Strafe- dodging.  a LOT.  Being MUCH more aware of my environment, for cover,  corners,  hiding places.  I found myself having MUCH more cerebral activity.    The game would end,  I"d go to bed,  and lie awake for an hour or 2,  thinking about my great wins,  my huge losses,  thinking,  "How can I play better"?    

 

The WORST mech in the game by far is the G2 Raider.   Absolutely useless.   an up close mech,  with heavy armor,  slow,  and a USELESS special?  Then imagine when I came across a player using one,  and killinig everyone,  CONSISTENTLY on top of the leaderboards in a G2 Raider!?!?   That will keep you up for hours.   

 

I RESENTED the handicaps the limited weapon selection gave me.   I wanted my Unreal Tournament Flak and Rocket  Do All - Be All weapons.  I wanted my Hawken Redeemer!!  But there is none.   So,  I had to think about teamwork,  about my placement.   I had to SCRUTINIZE the maps in my head, looking for any terrain advantage,  elevation, brush, cover, line of sight,  etc.    I  came to understand my tendency to go on solo excursions not only led me away from my team to get killed, it let my team down too.  

 

This is the strength of Hawken.   Teamwork.   Strategy.   Understanding of your hardware.     THESE skills will make you more dangerous than any Smurf, Nerf, or Ferffed  Mech, weapon, or item.  

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

^ Driving your enemies before you.  Lstening to the lamentation of their women and children...

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

As a player who's experienced pubstomps a lot, I gotta say... Going against other players who are far above your skill range is not fun.  It's pretty demoralizing to anyone who had their face smashed repeatedly by being torn to shreds by high MMR players.  Even if I changed my mechs, I'd still get pounded.  Now, since I really like this game, I'd usually go like, "Oh hey, I got slaughtered... I should go practice when I get more time later on."  Another player might just quit because 'OMG these obviously higher leveled players are farming us newer players. RAGE!'  The problem is that those higher 'leveled' players aren't offering tips on how to get better to the ones that their playing with (which might not help, but it's a start of sorts).

 

There's a whole lot of other factors that influence a new player or low skilled player's frustration. Such as a tutorial that isn't good, high learning curve, low population, really really weird balance issues such as the Brawler (UP in lower levels, really good at high), Scout (OP in lower levels, really hard to play in high), Incinerator, and possibly the Tech (both of these play too much with heat and health, more of the Incin than the Tech though).

Edited by Hijinks_The_Turtle, 11 April 2015 - 07:54 AM.

[RhyKoSin]

Cassini08 and I are making a habit of joining empty servers and helping anyone struggling or complaining. We make a habit of explaining siege to those who don't understand it. It'd be nice if everyone could do this to bring up the general level of competition and encourage more people to improve.

[CraftyDus]

Scout isn't op. Flying isn't op. Smurfing isn't op. Hawken isn't fast. Out-forum nerding forum nerds isn't effective. Lowering TTK, removing turn cap, and increasing speeds would make Hawken better in everyway that most Hawken players would hate.
Eoc is a bit weak. Reaper is a bit weak. Gren is a bit too hot. Gren should have eoc in lieu of heat/farthammer. G2 raider is still a bit too serious. Scanner is literally cancer.
Uptown and Prosk need to be fleshed out and Seige/MA added. Players need name changes at whim , and gifting/trading.
Rope fish needs a nuke .
Source: my diet is balanced and so can Hawken.

[PepeKenobi]

Actually, I think that HAWKEN enjoys of a good shape when we talk about balancing of the game.

 

This does not mean that balancing was or is completed. And basically because of those (not many IMHO) pending balancing inconsistences is what make feel like pretty tempted to some experienced pilots to be probably abusing a bit too much of those issues on the battlefield and for their own benefit. I'm speaking in general terms and I may be wrong on that.

 

Although we all may agree on that balancing needs to be revised (not too much, IMHO) thing which will improve the overall game's experience pretty much.

 

Basically by polishing some few weapons a little bit as well as those few abilities and some few number adjustments here and there plus several bug-fixes would vastly improve your perception and feelings on the game guys.

 

Sounds easy but it's definitely not, I know. But when I look around to many other games I honestly can say that HAWKEN enjoys of a very good quality when we speak about balancing. Must be completed (read beta factor here)? Yes, but it's in very good shape, IMHO. I'd suggest little and quality steps forward on this matter.

 

Sorry if I rambled too much here.

[Screwdriveby]

Hello everyone, 

 

Important stuff is where the stars are: ******

I know this may be an outdated thread, and my arguments may already exist,

but I have something to say about the balance issues. (and sorry for my inperfect english)

 

In my opinion, the gameplay is fantastic, and the MECHS are pretty balanced.

Meaning every mech has +- equal potential.

 

And the Match-MAKING is also pretty good.

Most of the time the match isnt predetermined from the beginning.

 

BUT (pretty much) all the time there is some kind of change during the game.

Meaning while the clock is running, some players join or leave the match.

THIS is where most of the balance-problems are originated.

And this leads to results like 40-5, which is NOT fun for either one of the teams.

 

e.g. teams are 5 each of similar skill.

now the two highest scoring players of team1 leave

and the two lowest scoring p. of team2 also leave

Problem: Team 1 is now screwed. (there might be exceptions, but in most cases this is true)

 

******A suggestion i came up with is a new game mode-or server option (for its configuration).

So you don't have to change the existing stuff (i don't want to make anyone angry)

This new game mode should lead to a balanced RESULT every time.

It looks at the score difference between the teams-and if it exceeds a certain value (e.g. 10), a player switch is performed.

The best player of the leading team is exchanged with the lowest scoring player of the other team.*******

 

This method can be adapted in any way, but I think if there is no change in the balance, this game might not be around for that long. e.g. I just lost 7 matches in a row, because I always was in the "noob" team. I have seen both sides of this effect and it doesn't  contribute to the fun factor either way. The proposed new mode could be very good to for players like me who are about to abandon the game.

 

Scincerely,

 

Screwd.