112 replies to this topic

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Fragmenting the playerbase isn't really good for anyone. Nonetheless, we've survived Co-Op being added... there are players who prefer the mode; I suspect there are fewer 'dirty tricks' played by the bots.

 

So... keeping Scouts out of the conversation, if there were three levels of play, where each level had certain elements of the game added as one climbs tiers (and maybe a tutorial to explain the mechanics/dimensions added for new tiers) would help?

I, as a nosebleed-level MMR player (compared to a 1700-MMR player) would not want to play in a server without stealth, EOC, turrets, orbs, detonators, and with radar ranges on the order of Assault.  This leaves core gameplay - positioning, leading, burst explosion reflection, and dodging.   Take Siege out of this level, too.  If I were inclined to create a new Smurf, I'd have to suffer here until 1700 MMR - about nine games.

 

Say a 1700-level player can then graduate to servers with Stealth (Infil/Pred), deployable items, and latent primaries (EOC).  He can stay in this level up to 100hrs gameplay, or drop back (and live with the restricted gameplay).  No one over 100 hours can join the first level, no one over 100 hours and 1900 MMR (both conditions satisfied) can play in the second level.  A skilled player can introduce 'dirty tricks', which will run rampant in this level, until players 'wise' to them (learn to check radar, maps, positioning).  You limit the mayhem a smurfer can create by keeping orbs, and certain internals out of this level (cough 'extractor', 'fuel converter', 'repair kit', cough).

 

Private servers and Mayhem remain wide open. Top tier has all things Hawken.

 

Just a proposal. I would live with nodelocking an account to a PC and limiting two per PC (motherboard/drive EID) for smurf control if it would save Hawken.

[MomOw]

Ajk and thevulong, can't you guys wait some explanation from the guy who opened the topic ?

Edited by MomOw, 29 March 2015 - 03:24 PM.

[crockrocket]

Ajk and thevulong, can't you guys wait some explanation from the guy who opened the topic ?

Or better yet, just stay on topic...

[MomOw]

Call_me_ishmael : one of the points of newcomers is the grind and your proposition make the grind even worse.
There are 2 aspect of the issue : high level players stomping newcomers in a very frustrating way and smurfs.
Whereas some stuff can be done to somehow deal with skill level difference, easing the gaming experience of new players (which is required for hawken to get a more populated player base) will lead to even worse smurfs.

To avoid smurfs to ruin the match maker, some changes in the algorithm could make their mmr rise faster.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Or better yet, just stay on topic...

You realize it is on topic?

It's about how a mech balanced for high MMR players is complained about ny lower MMR players, yet the data doesn't show its nearly as problematic in player retention as they claim it is.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

To avoid smurfs to ruin the match maker, some changes in the algorithm could make their mmr rise faster.

 

Ashfire's getting some data, and I'll crunch the numbers.  I think the issue isn't how fast MMR rises, it's how fast it can fall.

 

But I want to prove that with data...

[Superkamikazee]

I don't think such a controversy exists. The balance definitely should be helped by more experienced players, as they have a fuller picture of the game's ins and outs.

 

HOWEVER

 

These very players should not single-handedly make design decisions without keeping in mind low-mmr players. Design decisions ? balance decisions.

 

Top player input is vital regarding balance. Meta, not so much. If you only take high tier opinion when designing the gameplay meta, good luck. You're going to have the most complicated, epilepsy inducing twitch shooter. Kiss your turn rate cap good bye, all combat will be air to air, and movement speed would be doubled. We'd be playing Tribes in no time flat. lol

 

As far as Hawken being a "MECH" fps there's little left to give anyone that impression, as is, I guess there's the cockpit, and...

Edited by Superkamikazee, 29 March 2015 - 05:30 PM.

[KOS_Baconman]

The main reason I dislike the 2 main shotgunners (scout & raider) is because I'm butthurt because they always tend to sweep through matches I'm in, but this is coming from a guy who has trouble staying about 1500 MMR so what do I know.

Edited by BaconOverLord, 29 March 2015 - 05:27 PM.

[Nept]

 

 

 

Top player input is vital regarding balance. Meta, not so much. If you only take high tier opinion when designing the gameplay meta, good luck. You're going to have the most complicated, epilepsy inducing twitch shooter. Kiss your turn rate cap good bye, all combat will be air to air, and movement speed would be doubled. We'd be playing Tribes in no time flat. lol

 

As far as Hawken being a "MECH" fps there's little left to give anyone that impression, as is, I guess there's the cockpit, and...

 

A) Tribes is a terribly slow, non-twitch shooter which is fast only in the linear sense.  The only games that permit players similar aiming times are the slower MechWarrior entries. [And before someone gets into a Tribes is great/you don't even know argument, Omni has several top-ranked T2 players, and was the top-ranked Legions (Tribes-inspired game, but much faster) team.  Also, the team which won Tribes:Ascend competition comprised a mixture of teams/players which lost to us in Legions.  We didn't play T:A BECAUSE IT WAS SO GODDAMNED SLOW.]

 

I hate Tribes.

 

B) None of the top-tier players - to my knowledge - want Hawken to become an "epilepsy-inducing twitch shooter".  If the turn-rate cap were removed, the game would need to be sped up substantially to accommodate the ease with which players could aim.  We're talking like doubled speeds, minimum.  Many of us have also grown to enjoy the challenges that the turn-rate cap introduced: reaction times, for example, are emphasized because you can't simply catch up to targets with a rapid twitch. 

 

C) Top-tier players don't spend much time in the air.  Combining ground and air movement affords you many more movement options, and no top-tier players have difficulty dealing with opponents who float and spam AC.

Edited by Nept, 29 March 2015 - 06:19 PM.

[M4st0d0n]

What a silly argument. High level players can wipe the floor of a casual game using pretty much any mech. I've wandered into 1500 matches and come out on top using the G2 Assault by a large margin. This happens in all sorts of games. I regularly see it in SMITE. People using low-damage guardians to jungle. Squishy melee assassins in the ADC role. Things that wouldn't work in high level gameplay.

Also, you guarantee someone uninstalls everytime? Okay. Prove it.

These things in Smite are seen in high level tournaments and they work pretty well. But I agree with you that a vet can stomp with anything while smurfing. Stop stomping 1500 lobbies, you naughty naughty.

[AsianJoyKiller]

These things in Smite are seen in high level tournaments and they work pretty well. But I agree with you that a vet can stomp with anything while smurfing. Stop stomping 1500 lobbies, you naughty naughty.

No. You don't see someone running Kumba or Geb jungle, nor can you afford to replace a Hunter with anybody but Freya.

[Superkamikazee]

A) Tribes is a terribly slow, non-twitch shooter which is fast only in the linear sense.  The only games that permit players similar aiming times are the slower MechWarrior entries. [And before someone gets into a Tribes is great/you don't even know argument, Omni has several top-ranked T2 players, and was the top-ranked Legions (Tribes-inspired game, but much faster) team.  Also, the team which won Tribes:Ascend competition comprised a mixture of teams/players which lost to us in Legions.  We didn't play T:A BECAUSE IT WAS SO GODDAMNED SLOW.]

 

I hate Tribes.

 

B) None of the top-tier players - to my knowledge - want Hawken to become an "epilepsy-inducing twitch shooter".  If the turn-rate cap were removed, the game would need to be sped up substantially to accommodate the ease with which players could aim.  We're talking like doubled speeds, minimum.  Many of us have also grown to enjoy the challenges that the turn-rate cap introduced: reaction times, for example, are emphasized because you can't simply catch up to targets with a rapid twitch. 

 

C) Top-tier players don't spend much time in the air.  Combining ground and air movement affords you many more movement options, and no top-tier players have difficulty dealing with opponents who float and spam AC.

 

 

Calm your neck ball, I was being facetious.

 

"Top" players were calling for #increasethespeeds, and getting rid of the turn rate cap when the devs were still active (so almost a year ago). If I could search back I would to point you to said threads.

[M4st0d0n]

No. You don't see someone running Kumba or Geb jungle, nor can you afford to replace a Hunter with anybody but Freya.

You can find matches with Loki ADC and Ymir jungle in the past championship. Stop lying. But let's try to compare what's comparable please. You dont want low damage mech to have crowd control here.

[Fstroke]

Wait, so you just basically said that lower skilled players are the only ones that make hyperbolic,ill informed statements about the game meta? Give me a break.

Being someone with higher skill in a game does not automatically make them someone with higher intelligence and critical thinking skills. Sometimes its just someone who plays a lot of video games. Just because I don't have a 2800 MMR doesn't mean I can't have informed discussions on game mechanics.

It boils down to the fact that there is feedback which is based on misinformation, hyperbole, or just nonsense. And then there is feedback which is constructive, relevant and worthy of discussion. Disregarding someone's opinion because they are not as good at an activity is not a good enough reason on its own for dismissal and all too often is a weak counter argument at best.

[TheVulong]

C) Top-tier players don't spend much time in the air.  Combining ground and air movement affords you many more movement options, and no top-tier players have difficulty dealing with opponents who float and spam AC.

I see you looking at the EU community with the corner of your eye again..

[Sylhiri]

C) Top-tier players don't spend much time in the air.  Combining ground and air movement affords you many more movement options, and no top-tier players have difficulty dealing with opponents who float and spam AC.

 

I see a ton of top tier players spending a lot of time in the air and a large portion of them use sustain weapons. They may not like to fly until their fuel runs out but damn their spacebar must be worn out already.

[CaliberMengsk]

Calm your neck ball, I was being facetious.

 

"Top" players were calling for #increasethespeeds, and getting rid of the turn rate cap when the devs were still active (so almost a year ago). If I could search back I would to point you to said threads.

Eh.... I think that the top tier was more calling for a slightly faster turn cap, and it was awarded as well. It wasn't a massive change, but there was a max turn speed increase after they slowed it down too much with the tech patch. This was laregly due to the negative mouse speed claims. If it felt wrong like that, then something needed to be changed, and they did change it.

 

Personally, I feel it needs to be increased just a smidgen, but that's opinion and doesn't really matter in the grand scheme.

[Superkamikazee]

Eh.... I think that the top tier was more calling for a slightly faster turn cap, and it was awarded as well. It wasn't a massive change, but there was a max turn speed increase after they slowed it down too much with the tech patch. This was laregly due to the negative mouse speed claims. If it felt wrong like that, then something needed to be changed, and they did change it.

 

Personally, I feel it needs to be increased just a smidgen, but that's opinion and doesn't really matter in the grand scheme.

 

That was probably changed due to the games new increased movement speed. I always felt making the game "faster" was always the wrong decision, and was largely pushed by the top tier players. 

 

Whenever I'm discussing slowing the game down a bit, and mentioning my feelings on how AC broke the game this is where that stems from. This version of the game was never really given a fair shot, and it's the version that got everyones attention to begin with. 

 

 

Let's walk that line again, "western sim mech game" with "faster eastern mech" games.

 

Combat was much more grounded. The big thing AC, and the fuel dodge change did was pretty much break the maps. In this video the gameplay compliments the map design quite well, and I'd argue is the ideal style of gameplay for Hawken. It scratches the mech sim itch, but still maintains the ferocity and speed to satisfy more hardcore FPS fans. Nice balance.

 

Cool commentary IGN checked the game out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOW89sskyQM

Edited by Superkamikazee, 30 March 2015 - 08:23 AM.

[Mergaz]

Metagame: all players must be heard, no matter the MMR, because after all the metagame is what sets the game and it should be inviting to the largest possible number of players then elite players who representing 1% of real playerbase not may find that they have more valuable opinions on the metagame than new players, because after all who keep the game alive are casual gamers;

Balance: in this point I agree that players with higher MMR has priority opinion, but only in this sense;

Conclusion: metagame is determined to please the greatest number of players and balance should be done thinking about the PRO side of the game.

The problem is many vets clearly want to order on both fronts and exclude new players, just as they did in the old Hawken. DEVs should think about the metagame more profit capacity and public, after all Hawken is a F2P that urgently needs new players and vets can not require the new team lose profitability only to have a game with low income, but pleasing to them.

Even in the old forum I had heated discussions about it, where vets players said in so many words that preferred a game with low number online players (bankrupt), but good only for them in a clear demonstration of selfishness (hawken is one F2P or no?). I would like to have the old forum to display messages.

Edited by Mergaz, 30 March 2015 - 06:11 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

You can find matches with Loki ADC and Ymir jungle in the past championship. Stop lying. But let's try to compare what's comparable please. You dont want low damage mech to have crowd control here.

Loki gets played solo, and isn't seen as ADC in Season 2, and was a short trend even in Season 1 due to how gimmicky and easily shut down it was. It worked because nobody expected it, and then people adjusted he fell out of favor. Also, have you seen any of the top teams use Loki as ADC? TSM, AFK, and C9 know better than to try that gimmick.

Ymir is absolutely not conisdered a low damage guardian. His Shards of Ice is one of the highest damage ultimates in the game, even when he doesn't build damage. His Glacial Strike can 1-shot minion waves before it's maxed out. And his passive allows his basic attacks to do double damage, which means his basic attack far surpases any other guardians as it is one of their weakest points.

 

I'm not lying. You clearly just have no idea what you're talking about.

And this issue isn't about low damage mechs having crowd control. I don't know where you're getting that from. The point, which you seem to have forgotten, is just because something appears completely OP when used by a good player in a casual match, that doesn't mean it's actually broken.

[Nept]

That was probably changed due to the games new increased movement speed. I always felt making the game "faster" was always the wrong decision, and was largely pushed by the top tier players.

 

Combat was much more grounded. The big thing AC, and the fuel dodge change did was pretty much break the maps. In this video the gameplay compliments the map design quite well, and I'd argue is the ideal style of gameplay for Hawken. It scratches the mech sim itch, but still maintains the ferocity and speed to satisfy more hardcore FPS fans. Nice balance.

 

Not to start another argument, but I happened to watch this video again today:

 

 

That's the first Hawken video I saw - and I believe it's the first one they released.  It's definitely what attracted myself and my players to Hawken, and I think it's the video which "got everyone's attention to begin with".  I'd say that air combat - with air movement faster than what we have currently, albeit without AC - features heavily.  Certainly not what I'd call grounded combat.

Edited by Nept, 31 March 2015 - 08:07 AM.

[Superkamikazee]

Not to start another argument, but I happened to watch this video again today:



That's the first Hawken video I saw - and I believe it's the first one they released. It's definitely what attracted myself and my players to Hawken, and I think it's the video which "got everyone's attention to begin with". I'd say that air combat - with air movement faster than what we have currently, albeit without AC - features heavily. Certainly not what I'd call grounded combat.

Air movement was always in the game, it was what gave Hawken so much verticality. But AC changed what it meant to take to the skies. Now snowball that with increased movement speeds, no fuel dodge penalty, lower TTK, almost non existent heat management and the game is fundamentally a completely different animal. Flight was risky, and punishable, but that risk also provided a potential advantage. There isn't as much risk to flight now due to the huge amount of maneuverability with AC, but the huge advantage has remained (splash damage). That's really my main argument. It can be countered with skill ceiling talk, tow mid flight detonation, aim better, but those can be countered as well. This debate is really a matter of preference to a certain game play style one expects from a game, this game being a mech game. My issue with the AC is exasperated by the maps we currently have now. These maps were never built with the AC in mind with the added air maneuverability, and it shows.

I'm also not arguing, just expressing an opinion, just like you are with your preference of a faster arena Hawken. There is no definitive right or wrong, its not a math problem, its all preference.

Edited by Superkamikazee, 31 March 2015 - 08:46 AM.

[M4st0d0n]

Loki gets played solo, and isn't seen as ADC in Season 2, and was a short trend even in Season 1 due to how gimmicky and easily shut down it was. It worked because nobody expected it, and then people adjusted he fell out of favor. Also, have you seen any of the top teams use Loki as ADC? TSM, AFK, and C9 know better than to try that gimmick.

Ymir is absolutely not conisdered a low damage guardian. His Shards of Ice is one of the highest damage ultimates in the game, even when he doesn't build damage. His Glacial Strike can 1-shot minion waves before it's maxed out. And his passive allows his basic attacks to do double damage, which means his basic attack far surpases any other guardians as it is one of their weakest points.

 

I'm not lying. You clearly just have no idea what you're talking about.

And this issue isn't about low damage mechs having crowd control. I don't know where you're getting that from. The point, which you seem to have forgotten, is just because something appears completely OP when used by a good player in a casual match, that doesn't mean it's actually broken.

 

Well you seem to be able to dismantle your argument all by yourself now... Indeed. Squishy assassins can be seen in the solo role. As for Ymir's ultimate, with the number of executes you get in the game you couldnt be more wrong. Next time please spare the crappy analogy to make a point so we wont have to go off topic.

[IareDave]

Air movement was always in the game, it was what gave Hawken so much verticality. But AC changed what it meant to take to the skies. Now snowball that with increased movement speeds, no fuel dodge penalty, lower TTK, almost non existent heat management and the game is fundamentally a completely different animal. Flight was risky, and punishable, but that risk also provided a potential advantage. There isn't as much risk to flight now due to the huge amount of maneuverability with AC, but the huge advantage has remained (splash damage). That's really my main argument. It can be countered with skill ceiling talk, tow mid flight detonation, aim better, but those can be countered as well. This debate is really a matter of preference to a certain game play style one expects from a game, this game being a mech game. My issue with the AC is exasperated by the maps we currently have now. These maps were never built with the AC in mind with the added air maneuverability, and it shows.

I'm also not arguing, just expressing an opinion, just like you are with your preference of a faster arena Hawken. There is no definitive right or wrong, its not a math problem, its all preference.

For one, I don't consider targets in the air, even with air comp. especially hard to deal with. But, I understand there are players with different strengths and different weaknesses, so I sympathize. However, note the facts: air dodge consumes fuel, ground dodge doesn't, air comp takes 3 internal slots, ground dodge doesn't. This isn't to say air dodge isn't viable, but this is too say, facts included, that their is a significant trade off when deciding to use the air comp. in favor of a build such as orb"lord".

[Superkamikazee]

For one, I don't consider targets in the air, even with air comp. especially hard to deal with. But, I understand there are players with different strengths and different weaknesses, so I sympathize. However, note the facts: air dodge consumes fuel, ground dodge doesn't, air comp takes 3 internal slots, ground dodge doesn't. This isn't to say air dodge isn't viable, but this is too say, facts included, that their is a significant trade off when deciding to use the air comp. in favor of a build such as orb"lord".

 

There's a push to introduce AC as standard equipment for all mechs. 

[Sylhiri]

Orb lord beats air, air beats ground*, scissors cuts paper. Seems legit.

 

*Equal for some, disadvantaged for others.

Edited by Sylhiri, 31 March 2015 - 09:46 AM.

[Odra]

"Rock is overpowered, Paper is fine" -Scissors

 

That is what goes through my mind whenever I see a balance thread.

 

Not arguing against anyone in particular, it is just difficult to believe impartial and objective global feedback can be given by a specialized group and still hope to create a growth in population. (which, economic wise, is vital for an FPS F2P game)

[LaurenEmily]

"Rock is overpowered, Paper is fine" -Scissors

Wise words right there. damn.

I think most of us are at least a little bit guilty of this when balance is discussed..

(i know i am)

[IareDave]

"Rock is overpowered, Paper is fine" -Scissors

 

That is what goes through my mind whenever I see a balance thread.

 

Not arguing against anyone in particular, it is just difficult to believe impartial and objective global feedback can be given by a specialized group and still hope to create a growth in population. (which, economic wise, is vital for an FPS F2P game)

 

 

Orb lord beats air, air beats ground*, scissors cuts paper. Seems legit.

 

*Equal for some, disadvantaged for others.

If you want to be competitive, you follow the game meta. This is how competitive games run. 

[Sylhiri]

If you want to be competitive, you follow the game meta. This is how competitive games run. 

 

I'm rather fond of my EOC, if I am required to run sustain just to be competitive then I'll wait until the meta changes.

 

Until then competitive Hawken can go **** itself. :0

[IareDave]

I'm rather fond of my EOC, if I am required to run sustain just to be competitive then I'll wait until the meta changes.

Until then competitive Hawken can go **** itself. :0

'Competitive hawken' has nothing to do with the shift in meta. Sure, players will find what works and what doesnt, but that's up to the developers and how they go about balancing.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Well you seem to be able to dismantle your argument all by yourself now... Indeed. Squishy assassins can be seen in the solo role. As for Ymir's ultimate, with the number of executes you get in the game you couldnt be more wrong. Next time please spare the crappy analogy to make a point so we wont have to go off topic.

Um... what?

 

You were arguing that assassins are seen in the ADC role. The ADC sits in long lane, which is on the opposite side of the map from solo lane.

You were arguing that low damage guardians are seen in the jungle role. But then you reference one of the highest damage guardians. Now you're going on about executes too, which there are only 2 executes of, meaning Ymir's ultimate still is more powerful than at least 87% of the ultimates in the game doing 1000+ base damage when fully ranked, and easily does 2000+ damage with damage items (which can 1-shot a squishy characters health lategame). And aside from that, the two executes are on characters who are meant to be high-damage junglers.

My analogy wasn't crappy. You just understand so little about what goes on in SMITE that you proved you literally couldn't tell the difference between the left and right side of the map (ADC vs. Solo).

If you could just admit you don't know what the you're talking about, this wouldn't have been dragged so far off topic.

[Leonhardt]

http://www.twitch.tv...awken/c/4094063

 

Look its me! I saw me! I'm famous!!!

[M4st0d0n]

Um... what?

 

You were arguing that assassins are seen in the ADC role. The ADC sits in long lane, which is on the opposite side of the map from solo lane.

You were arguing that low damage guardians are seen in the jungle role. But then you reference one of the highest damage guardians. Now you're going on about executes too, which there are only 2 executes of, meaning Ymir's ultimate still is more powerful than at least 87% of the ultimates in the game doing 1000+ base damage when fully ranked, and easily does 2000+ damage with damage items (which can 1-shot a squishy characters health lategame). And aside from that, the two executes are on characters who are meant to be high-damage junglers.

My analogy wasn't crappy. You just understand so little about what goes on in SMITE that you proved you literally couldn't tell the difference between the left and right side of the map (ADC vs. Solo).

If you could just admit you don't know what the you're talking about, this wouldn't have been dragged so far off topic.

 

XD I said you could see assassins in the ADC role during the championship. Learn to read. And it's purely rethoric. Like, you cant compare 1000+ DMG with 9999 DMG or the infinity with no charge time. You can see smurfes with classes in weird position everyday playing Smite and compare that to a pubstomp with a scout in Hawken. Good for you but it's fuzzy bunny. Smite is a god simulator/tactical wizard'em up with optional pirate theme. It's not even remotely twitch based. Wookies and Ewoks cant share the same planet... XD

[Fstroke]

Still better than the destiny forums. Haha

[AsianJoyKiller]

XD I said you could see assassins in the ADC role during the championship. Learn to read.

Really, you don't remember saying that I was dismanteling my argument of assassin's not being played as ADCs because they're in the solo lane?

 

Well you seem to be able to dismantle your argument all by yourself now... Indeed. Squishy assassins can be seen in the solo role.

I don't need to learn to read. You need to learn how to remember what you said.

 

 

And it's purely rethoric. Like, you cant compare 1000+ DMG with 9999 DMG or the infinity with no charge time.

Actually you can, especially when executes are not simply 9999/infinite damage. They are instant kills on targets below a certain health threshhold. If the target is not below that threshold then you cannot execute, and those ults will do significantly less damage than Ymirs. Both Ao Kuang and Thantos do less than 300 base damage at max rank on the Ultimates if they cannot execute. And executes don't even effectively do anything close to 9999 damage. At most, they'll be doing about 1400~ damage, which is around the 40% health threshhold on a fully built tank, and nearer to 800 on squishy targets.

Of course, all your blithering about ultimates is Red Herring fallacy nonsense, because it still doesn't change the fact that Ymir is a high damage guardian.

 

 

You can see smurfes with classes in weird position everyday playing Smite and compare that to a pubstomp with a scout in Hawken. Good for you but it's fuzzy bunny. Smite is a god simulator/tactical wizard'em up with optional pirate theme. It's not even remotely twitch based. Wookies and Ewoks cant share the same planet... XD

That does not disprove anything, because you're going on about the wrong issues. It doesn't matter if SMITE is a MOBA. It doesn't matter if it's not twitch based (Which is actually wrong. There are tons of twitch based mechanics in SMITE given the prevelance of skill shots and projectiles.).

What's being compared here is that higher level players can make certain things seem unbalanced in casual games that are balanced in high level play.

This is something that can happen regardless of genre.

You're trying to claim a fallacy of false equivelency, but you don't even understand the basics of what's being compared, and are going on about factors that are not relevant. You need to stop arguing because you obviously don't even fully understand what you're arguing about.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, 31 March 2015 - 05:15 PM.

[LoC_TR]

Look its me! I saw me! I'm famous!!!

Woah Woah Woah buddy, don't get ahead of yourself. 

 

If this thread is just to make sure the input of the high skilled player is not forgotten, I can second that motion.. but I think the real issues was they weren't really listening to anyone. If they were listening, it got contorted, or they did not act on it. I really enjoyed Jeff's Q/A approach, but I wish more people could have answered it (including myself).

 

as far as the scout goes..

 

Any player who can crush a whole server single handedly in a scout, can do so in any mech. It's only more annoying to play against a scout because people don't know how to aim. If you play against users who hit every shot playing scout is not nearly as easy. You basically play like a little girl and run away all the time. Health and Positioning will trump most speed movement play, especially if there is an objective that requires you to stay in a fight longer. 

 

Edit: I think we did find on maps like Frontline, Scouts and other A mech's had an easier time passing from point to point on Missile Assault. This may not represent a big enough advantage though in most cases.

 

Here's an old vid of the kind of "high tier" really "awesome" tdm's we use to play. All that matters is health. These fights happen in smaller bursts in gamemodes like siege and Missile Assault. (Keep in mind this is before the TTK changes as well.) Theres a bunch more vids where we lose to Omni, if they get all self-conscious ill post em.   

 

This was played Feb, 2014. 

Edited by LoC_TR, 31 March 2015 - 06:55 PM.

[Leonhardt]

C) Top-tier players don't spend much time in the air.  Combining ground and air movement affords you many more movement options, and no top-tier players have difficulty dealing with opponents who float and spam AC.

 

Accept for Dave using Heat cannon. He seems to think he is invincible up there.

 

Silly dave floating is for kids or is that Trix? I can't ever remember.

[Leonhardt]

Woah Woah Woah buddy, don't get ahead of yourself.

 

OMG! Its LoC_TR HE IS FAMOUS AND HE RECOGNIZES ME?! *blushes*

[ThirdEyE]

I'm rather fond of my EOC, if I am required to run sustain just to be competitive then I'll wait until the meta changes.

 

Until then competitive Hawken can go **** itself. :0

Fyi there are lots of weapons in between eoc and sustain.  Sure it's a fun weapon (I've been on an eoc raider kick lately) but it's straight up weak in its current form.  I know you like stealth so try pred, it's got no sustain and all the eoc you could ever want.  Raider also has no sustain (reflak is close but if you just hold M1 you're using it wrong), and is tons of fun to play.  Both these mechs are good in high tier play, as are many others that don't use sustain.