21 replies to this topic

[Silent_]

Purpose of this thread is to create discussion about the benefits and downsides of the turn rate cap and what could be changed to make Hawken play better. Personally I feel that the current turn rate cap hinders aiming too much without significant benefits for gameplay. It is also a problem for player retention, since the turn rate cap isn’t really present in any other fps games and it might alienate new players away from Hawken.

 

Immersion and whatnot is an often used argument for keeping turn rate cap. But Hawken isn’t a sim, so in my opinion the focus should be in gameplay instead. I’ll try my best to list some of the benefits and downsides below. Even if it is just my opinion and some may feel otherwise.

 

Pros;

+Some may find it immersive.

+Flanking from a right angle is more effective as it takes more time for the enemy to turn around.

+CQC dancing. However, viability of this in high level lobbies is bit limited.

+Other mechanics such as using movement as part of aiming is more important because of the cap.

 

Cons;

-New players have a harder time getting used to the game. Messes up with muscle memory and makes game to feel more sluggish.

-"Remembering" mouse speed for the limit is bothersome, at least for me: I can play any other fps game with long breaks in between, but that doesn’t work with Hawken. Even after a short break I need a long time for relearning how fast I can move mouse without hitting the cap.

-Players with a higher ping are at a greater disadvantage than usual because of the combined effect of turn rate cap and leading.

-Projectile weapons are less effective for the same reason. Especially EOC would play much better without cap, since without cap one could more effectively target small pauses in movement.

 

An alternative for outright removing turn rate cap could be changing it so that within a certain radius aiming would be unhindered, but when turning larger angles, the turn rate cap would work like it does now. This way one could aim during a firefight like in any other fps, but the coarse turning around would be limited. The Turret mode would probably need to be looked into separately if any changes are made.

 

[coldform]

Immersion and whatnot is an often used argument for keeping turn rate cap. But Hawken isn’t a sim, so in my opinion the focus should be in gameplay instead. I’ll try my best to list some of the benefits and downsides below. Even if it is just my opinion and some may feel otherwise.

 

first off, I will agree with the sentiment that hawken is not a sim, however, my opinion is that although the concept of immersion introduced the turn cap, it becomes a core underlying mechanic that defines all of hawken's gameplay.  If it were removed, the unique fighting style that emerges within hawken's gameplay would cease to exist, and I feel it would play more like a generic shooter.

 

IMO, hawken pilots can use this limitation to great effect, as once a pilot sees it as exploitable, it becomes a strength and not a weakness.

 

for the attacker: the turn cap can be broken.  therefore, you can actually define a moment in combat in which you can strike your opponent with impunity. if one can consistently remain out of the cross-hairs of an opponent, they can define the outcome of the engagement.

 

for the defender: the turn cap can be broken, therefore you can actually define a moment in combat in which your opponent will never be able to strike you, thus changing the tempo and cadence of combat, allowing more options once you begin to move on the offensive.

 

either way, this simple mechanic is what makes hawken unique. if it were removed, hawken would seem to make the move towards another generic shooter.  Removing it just because there are those that are frustrated with it does not seem right.  Instead of removing,  RLD should come up with some material to illustrate the concept, and inform new players of introductory methods of mitigating the impact of the turn rate cap in game.

Edited by coldform, 07 August 2016 - 07:30 AM.

[SSSS]

Change = sure, why not.

Removal = no, thanks, the gameplay would be much faster and the battles shorter. Titanfall has no turn-caps and the mechs feel like big humans, not mechs. But if I'm completely honest, Hawken doesn't feel like a mech game to me anyway. Low TTK + fast speed is a niche in the mech game genre.

[dorobo]

if removed much would need to be rebalanced. Dodging would be much less effective maybe pointless even. I prefer changing stuff more towards  mech sim but i don't mind more mecha type action too. Anyways varying turn rate cap dependent on radius of aiming might be even more challenging than it is now.

[ArchMech]

if it was just harder for people to hit the negative acceleration cap it'd be a lot better

 

i.e. im saying give the 6000 dpi mousers guys with max sens the ability to play the game without ALWAYS turning slower then everybody else feeling like their playing world of tanks while every1 else is playing cod. they all caught on to the mouse movement = turn capped + extreme negative accel limiter

(yes it is a little tiny bit on the extreme side if 600 dpi to a non spin-180 = about 11 sens if you want to avoid hitting accel along the way(with practice) on an 8in by 8in mousepad and the default sens is like....60)

 

it was designed that way, its not awful, it shouldnt go away, its documented and widely known, or at least attempts are/have often been made to make it more widely known

the problem is that once a number of people realize its there, they dont care if theres a work around they just say fk it and move on, i dont blame them, nobody ever did/has/will, there were too many other contributing factors, MMR/MM, autobalance, server browser,  leavers, crashing, D/cs, hacks, exploits, glitches, bugs, that list goes on and on and on + adh implementation of just about everything was piss poor =ded game

 

its finicky, the loss in turning degrees/sec in negative accel is so choked/easy to run into compared to normal turning speed...then add in the dodging, comparatively dodging with/without choked turning speed as a result of neg. accel. is exponentially worse/better in their respective fields (in short, huge difference) 

 

its a throwback to chromehounds i think? rose tinted glasses shade my memories of it all icky pinkish and im not lookin to go watch any gameplay videos to confirm

Edited by ArchMech, 07 August 2016 - 08:56 AM.

[ArchMech]

we have 3 forces at work, the overall degrees/sec cap max turning speed is the initial suspect culprit, unfortunately this is just every1s favorite target

 

DPI+in game sensitivity (considered as one factor-settings, you could add .config edits/registry edits as it applies, this is of course assuming your mouse has a dpi setting, if it doesn't tho and its dpi locked it still applies, overall far to complicated in hawkens case with factors #1 and #3)

 

negative acceleration wall basically anything over 1000 dpi and 6-9 sens (citation required) 400dpi 15ish-20ish sens whilst moving your mouse at various speeds one would find normally reasonable and not panic stricken on any number of games, or while using more personalized dpi/sens levels as well you can run into it if you just aren't careful enough

 

in short, #3 needs a looking at call it- "Alleviating the min/max effects of negative mouse acceleration in ha*wken (*o)"

[ArchMech]

you should call the thread "Alleviating the min/max effects of negative mouse acceleration in ha*wken (*o)"

[XFXFuryX]

I think the turn rate cap is a good thing. It slows the game down to a manageable level without deterring the players

[Hecatoncheires]

I have to say the turn rate cap is one of my favorite things about Hawken.

It's a unique feature that a player can take advantage of, almost like invincibility frames in fighting games.

[6ixxer]

I don't think it is a problem, nor needs removing.

 

I'd like to see it slightly modified per class perhaps, less cap on A, more cap on C.

I think A should turn quicker than a C and if twitch shooter players prefer that then they will gravitate towards A classes.

 

People using controllers should be able to compete against key/mouse users (of similar or slightly lesser skill) and the turn cap assists in that. I like that Hawken has the potential* for cross platform play because of this.

 

Cheers,

6ixxer

Edited by 6ixxer, 07 August 2016 - 06:46 PM.

[ArchMech]

 

I'd like to see it slightly modified per class perhaps, less cap on A, more cap on C.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[crockrocket]

I think the turn rate cap is a good thing. It slows the game down to a manageable level without deterring the players

Nice b8

[MomOw]

The turn cap is one point that makes hawken a mix between Mech game and FPS.

I have to say that I like the current design : the TTK and movement speed (including turncap) are fast enough to be enjoyable, but not too fast for my reflexes (I'm too slow for Q3 arena instagib...). 

But I agree that some will find it either too fast (for a Mech game) or too slow (for a shooter).

 

My experience is that I felt sluggish when I switch from Quake 3 arena or DOOM 2016 to hawken, but it's fine when I play hawken after having played Tom Clancy : The division (third person shooter).

 

To come back to the subject, the balance (on PC) is not bad as it is, except for a few combination of Mech / weapons (EOC rocketeer...).

IMHO there are no needs to change it, unless you want to make hawken closer to a standard FPS (or close to a mech game)

Edited by MomOw, 08 August 2016 - 05:41 AM.

[Kopra]

I kind of like the idea of free weapon movement in a sector in front of the mech, which is actually how arm mounted weapons work in MWO (which is a much slower paced mech game). The Hawken cockpit in 1st person could definitely support 'instant' aiming (having the cockpit lag behind where you're aiming).

It would definitely affect the balance and the sector would have to be defined carefully as not to void the CQC-dance, which is a pretty unique and fun thing to Hawken and worth preserving. The game would get proper 'flick shots' to some degree, though (possibly more MLG and less juking plays?)

 

The turn rate cap is actually pretty fast (at around 1.8 s per revolution, measured with a potato), as you can theoretically track an A-class dodge at a rather close range of 13 m (at the beginning of the dodge) with simply aiming, not using movement yourself. Removing the turn cap (at a sector) might not affect the general encounter that much (speed doesn't break the turn cap), but it affects some really specific situations like an A-class mech dodging or boosting at a really close range and playing around that mechanic to stay alive.

There would need to be a compensating mechanic to make up for it. Maybe a 'free aim sector' could be counterbalanced with a slower turn rate cap outside of the 'free aim sector': you could even have different mech classes have different turn caps, for example making A-class mechs faster at turning and thus better at exploiting C-class turn slower turning speeds, making A-class mechs better flankers and C-class mechs better at direct combat. Or something else. It's highly speculative.

 

Either way I'm in for preserving the turn rate cap in some way to keep the 'mech feel'. There's also a chance (as with every suggestion) that if this is implemented, it would go horribly, scarily good horribly wrong. It's certain that any changes would have to be done carefully and really specifically not to disrupt the game mechanics too much, but if the reward is having 1:1 aiming consistency that helps other players translate their aim from other games to Hawken, maybe it's worth it.

[Mech Mod 7]

Big clunky battle mechs just turn slow, it's kind of something I became accustomed to in MechWarrior and something I appreciate in HAWKEN, even though they're much faster in HAWKEN than MW but I disgress; I think ssss nailed it with the Titanfall example. Removing turn rate cap makes them feel less like mechs and more like big humans. Sure it's not a SIM but that shouldn't mean we throw the physics of a mech out the window entirely!

 

I dunno, just my 2 cents.

[ArchMech]

Big clunky battle mechs just turn slow, it's kind of something I became accustomed to in MechWarrior and something I appreciate in HAWKEN, even though they're much faster in HAWKEN than MW but I disgress; I think ssss nailed it with the Titanfall example. Removing turn rate cap makes them feel less like mechs and more like big humans. Sure it's not a SIM but that shouldn't mean we throw the physics of a mech out the window entirely!

 

I dunno, just my 2 cents.

according to lore, these arent big blunky battle mechs that adhere to normal physics, however we do have and have had game developers who adhere to normal physics laws, thus they are biased by these laws and their own flaws

 

fix the negative mouse acceleration's overbearing control over users mouse input

[DallasCreeper]

according to lore, these arent big blunky battle mechs that adhere to normal physics,

These are big clunky battle mechs infused with a gravity-defying metal.

[Darktim300]

Bad and should feel bad.

[ArchMech]

These are big clunky battle mechs infused with a gravity-defying metal.

to be fair, they come in three sizes and make more whirring and wooshing sounds then clanking clunkers

i wouldnt call a mech you can scale to the top of in about 5-15 minutes depending on stamina and athleticism "big", thanks scaling

Edited by ArchMech, 09 August 2016 - 12:05 AM.

[ArchMech]

but i digress, seriously the negative mouse accel has been talked about be4 and it'd be good to have that addressed 

[StubbornPuppet]

Leave the turn-rate cap alone.  Removing it would completely ruin the entire game.

[crockrocket]

Leave the turn-rate cap alone. Removing it would completely ruin the entire game.

I agree, this is something that would fundamentally change the game. The turn cap is something that makes hawken unique as a shooter.