36 replies to this topic

[Odoku]

I would like to see a PPC (particle projection cannon)  weapon. It would be a hard hitting energy shot with a moderate fire rate but it generates a TON of heat so it can only be used it short bursts or slow sustained fire, and it also raises the targets heat to a small degree.

 

On this note laser weapons seem oddly lacking, or perhaps they dont fit into Hawken canon technology?

[petracles]

If you're leaning towards something like a Carbine-esque primary weapon, then I totally agree. This game could use another cool burst weapon, especially another primary, but one that is still comfortable to a sustained-damage player with its semi-automatic fire rate. High heat generation would be good for it, maybe a scope to it too, and lasers because, yeah! Lasers! A laser primary would be kewlkewlkewl

[Merl61]

I would like to see a PPC (particle projection cannon)  weapon. It would be a hard hitting energy shot with a moderate fire rate but it generates a TON of heat so it can only be used it short bursts or slow sustained fire, and it also raises the targets heat to a small degree.

 

On this note laser weapons seem oddly lacking, or perhaps they dont fit into Hawken canon technology?

Lasers don't fit into the lore at all. It is supposed to be a brutal war with whatever they can scrap together, not some high-tech arms race. 

[ticklemyiguana]

The previous developers had a pretty staunch "no lasers" stance, and I'd agree to some extent. It really just doesn't feel like that game. It's entirely subjective, of course, but there is the fact that lasers require substantially more energy to be even a little bit effective in weaponized variants.

[LaurenEmily]

Lasers and phasers and tasers and lamers belong in kid's shows :)
i dont think they fit in the 'realistic' style of hawken.

[Source_Mystic]

The heat cannon is already what you want. It is burst its cannon and even has some splash. Or if you want to over heat mechs Get the incinerater and use mama.  Again a cannon and chain gun over heats mechs. Your problem is you are too stuck on a new idea when what you want is already in the game.

[SandSpider2]

Please stop talking about laser weapons. We get a post like this about once a week and everyone who knows anything about the lore of this game, knows that weapons like that don't belong here. We say it all the time. I think there have already been two mentions of it in the last two weeks. This is Hawken, not MWO. They are two totally different games with totally different backgrounds. 

[CraftyDus]

Lasers rule! Jerks drool!

Tunnel Snakes!

[Sigil_]

Well, there is this...

 

 

Game files call it 'Lightning Gun'. My theory is that its the secondary for the 'Seige Tank' that Adhesive was working on.

[KOS_Baconman]

Well, there is this...

 

 

Game files call it 'Lightning Gun'. My theory is that its the secondary for the 'Seige Tank' that Adhesive was working on.

I smell a conspiracy....

[SwompKreetcher]

may i suggest Mech Warrior.  ugh.

this is so stupid. WTF were you thinking?

Edited by SwompKreetcher, 12 April 2015 - 10:42 PM.

[PhasmaFelis]

may i suggest Mech Warrior.  ugh.

this is so stupid. WTF were you thinking?

I can't imagine why people say Hawken has an unfriendly community.

[thedark20]

MW and HAWKEN are different games, playstyles and universes. That's it. MW plays with ballistic and energy weapons, and they gete developed over the years.

HAWKEN uses fully ballistic weapons, to give an even more plausible future, and give it more "realism", in terms of plausibility, because weapons in HAWKEN work with overheat, they don't use ammo, if they worked with limited ammo, mechs would be bigger, heavier and the ammo would be reaaaally limited because there's no room in those mechs.

Just look at HAWKEN like, they wanted different War Machines, machines that would make more difference than tanks or ground artillery, easier to move and faster. These mechs are developed tanks, built to do the tank's job. For instance, they use only ballistic weapons.

[Tankman95]

Well, there is this...

 

 

Game files call it 'Lightning Gun'. My theory is that its the secondary for the 'Seige Tank' that Adhesive was working on.

 

Reminds me of the Gun with the same name in Unreal Tournamet 2k4

Spoiler

Due the use of the unreal engine I suspect it is basicly the same weapon

[Jelooboi]

A railgun would be nice. It would have a slow rate of fire like the kla, shoots in a straight line like the heat cannon but uses a much larger projectile made out of lead. The splash damage would be minimal because it's not an explosive but a direct hit would be completely devastating. Shooting it in close range will damage yourself A LOT. It would probably have the same speed as a charged heat cannon so it's not hitscan. 

[M4st0d0n]

If only they could somehow craft a system of lenses able to focalize the radiation of this rodent crap...

[Jerv]

MW and HAWKEN are different games, playstyles and universes. That's it. MW plays with ballistic and energy weapons, and they gete developed over the years.

HAWKEN uses fully ballistic weapons, to give an even more plausible future, and give it more "realism", in terms of plausibility, because weapons in HAWKEN work with overheat, they don't use ammo, if they worked with limited ammo, mechs would be bigger, heavier and the ammo would be reaaaally limited because there's no room in those mechs.

Just look at HAWKEN like, they wanted different War Machines, machines that would make more difference than tanks or ground artillery, easier to move and faster. These mechs are developed tanks, built to do the tank's job. For instance, they use only ballistic weapons.

 

Not buying that. MW also has heat, the difference being that ballistic and missile weapons generate less heat at the expense of being limited by the size of one's ammo bins. While most weapons in Hawken are undeniably ballistic, the HEAT cannon, SAARE, and Helix are not; two are plasma lobbers and one is pure fantasy that makes sense for gameplay but has zero realism and thus highly implausible. We actually have weaponized lasers as of a few years ago. I find it more plausible that weapons used on testbed aircraft and naval vessels will evolve than I do that any species capable of making a mech will be able to build mech-portable HEAT cannons without going through laser technology first.

 

The simple truth is that the decisions that have been made were made mostly for reasons of game balance. If they wanted more realism, then a PPC would be more plausible than a HEAT cannon as we already have ways to ionize a tunnel through the air and launch a lightning bolt down it. From a game mechanics point of view though, it would be a hassle if we had a hitscan weapon that vaporized armor and temporarily disrupted electronics, which is pretty much what happens IRL from a lightning strike and in MW from a PPC hit.

 

 

Please stop talking about laser weapons. We get a post like this about once a week and everyone who knows anything about the lore of this game, knows that weapons like that don't belong here. We say it all the time. I think there have already been two mentions of it in the last two weeks. This is Hawken, not MWO. They are two totally different games with totally different backgrounds. 

 

Now, this is more plausible. Just make the mechanics the way you want the game to run, and ret-con the lore in afterwards. Maybe Hawken is set on some bizzaro-world where they somehow managed to utterly skip over a pretty fundamental application of electromagnetics the way some kids go from taking their first step right into their sophomore year of college with no in-between.

 

I doubt it though. I think that the truth is simply this; Hawken is just a game.

 

 

A railgun would be nice. It would have a slow rate of fire like the kla, shoots in a straight line like the heat cannon but uses a much larger projectile made out of lead. The splash damage would be minimal because it's not an explosive but a direct hit would be completely devastating. Shooting it in close range will damage yourself A LOT. It would probably have the same speed as a charged heat cannon so it's not hitscan. 

 

We already have a railgun; the Breacher. And while railguns are cool, they don't operate anywhere close to how you seem to think they do.

 

Given the size of maps and the speed of the linear accelerators we have now (generally 3-5 times the speed of "regular" guns like the Hawkins and AM-SAR) I'd say that a railgun would pretty much have to be hitscan unless you just want to handwave physics. As for self-damage, that would only really be a possibility of you used explosive projectiles; you said it's not an explosive projectile... which means that the only way it could inflict much damage at all would be if it were traveling at hitscan speeds. And it only works with ferrous slugs anyways; lead isn't ferrous, so you'd need a jacketed round.... and would probably launch just the jacket without the lead.

Better idea; take the effect you want and figure out some plausible justification later rather than use a cool buzzword in a manner that totally contradicts known physics and mechanics. I can't think of any plausible way to reconcile explosive self-damage at close range with minimal blast radius using a slow ball of non-ferrous metal fired by magnets. Now, a plasma launcher that has a minimal safe focusing distance may fit the bill, but that'd be just a bigger HEAT cannon.

[ticklemyiguana]

I can't imagine why people say Hawken has an unfriendly community.

https://community.pl...ic/954-apology/

https://community.pl...formal-apology/

Seriously? This place is like the Canada of the internet.

Sorry you had to deal with one bad post in a thread that's been brought up 500 times or more in the past.

[Hyginos]

I'm not necessarily opposed to a PPC because it's thematically out of place, but because it would be mechanically so similar to a charged HEAT cannon.

 

And really now that the SAARE is a thing, a blue version with no arc and a higher velocity isn't a huge thematic stretch. It's not like a laser beam deathray mininuke or something.

[Pelanthoris]

No lasers. The end. Dot.
Instead I'd like to see former assault riffle mechanic restored now that noobs get the assault with submachine cannon as first mech. For those who don't remember, assault used to have high accuracy which detoriated quicly with long bursts.
Short controlled burst was the key :p

[OdinTheWise]

we could have it a orb launcher type thing 

[hoghead]

An orb launcher full of Hawken virus!!!!!!! nasty!

[Hyginos]

No lasers. The end. Dot.

 

To be clear, PPC is not a laser. That is not what OP is suggesting. PPC is more like a plasma cannon than anything else, characterized by a bright blue projectile with a long trace.

[thedark20]

To be clear, PPC is not a laser. That is not what OP is suggesting. PPC is more like a plasma cannon than anything else, characterized by a bright blue projectile with a long trace.

It is more like a High-Heating long range plasma launcher, it won't fit in any current mech because Long Range mechs have their weapons defined already. But a more developed version of the Sharshooter with energy weapons would be nice, just to continue the lore of the game.

But, if the Devs. have already decided not to include lasers and/or energy weapons, this thread is already closed sadly. We are having a pretty nice discussion here but this is not getting anywhere if the decision is already taken.

Edited by thedark20, 13 April 2015 - 09:29 AM.

[MomOw]

duh, no need of PPC, we already have the Heat cannon

[AxionOperandi]

Lasers don't fit into the lore at all. It is supposed to be a brutal war with whatever they can scrap together, not some high-tech arms race. 

If you read the mech descriptions thats exactly what it is, a high-tech arms race.  They started as one thing utilitarian work machines but are now refined platforms for warfare with advanced technology.  As how all wars escalate technology; things get more advanced and powerful not more cobbled together, scrap pieces don't win wars.

 

As to the weapons I think Hawkens gritty look and feel is awesome and the projectile based weapons really add to that.  It also lends a bit of physical practicality to the game that is missing in most sci-fi games as there is no disputing with the massive amounts of kinetic energy in high caliber rounds.  Having said that I think energy based weapons would be interesting also fit in with the Haweken universe.  There is after all kinds of pieces of super advanced tech in the game; battle ships with anti-gravity drive, repair drones that are able to repair your mech on the stop, anti-gravity jump pads, the Technicians Repair Torch.  I think it would make sense that someone would try to weaponize something something energy based in the Hawken universe. 

 

I think I'd like to see it but I don't want it to displace the practicality and ease of destruction of the kinetic weapons.  Any kind of energy based weapon should have a very different mechanic and while it should be usable it should have distinct disadvantages in its  design to the projectile / kinetic counter parts in the game as those are what make Hawken special.

[Jerv]

I think I'd like to see it but I don't want it to displace the practicality and ease of destruction of the kinetic weapons.  Any kind of energy based weapon should have a very different mechanic and while it should be usable it should have distinct disadvantages in its  design to the projectile / kinetic counter parts in the game as those are what make Hawken special.

 

Well, in most games I've played both on the tabletop and on computers/consoles, the mechanics of energy weapons are much like those of ballistic weapons, though with tradeoffs.

 

Ballistic weapons are cheaper and lighter than a ballistic weapon of similar damage output, and usually have more versatility due to the ability to fire different types of munitions and "switching clips" when you need a different mix of damage, penetration, and blast radius. Their downside is that they are utterly useless once the ammo bins run empty.

 

Energy weapons major advantage is that they are able to fire as long as they are supplied with power, and generally once the power supply is gone, you have bigger issues. I mean, in most games (Hawken included) the powerplant is located in a heavily armored area and supplies power to things like the drivetrain and fire control computers; if your engine is taken out, odds are that you're already dead anyways. Their tradeoffs are cost and heat generation, though the latter is often compensated for by making them bigger and heavier to accommodate a cooling system sufficient for operation.

 

Missile weapons are even simpler and cheaper than Ballistic weapons, though their ammunition is far more costly. often more limited, and their "projectiles" travel slower. But at the ranges involved in Hawken, both Ballistic and Energy would be hitscan, with the possible exception of plasma-lobbers which could plausibly be modeled as Missile weapons as far as how it goes from the gun to the target.

 

Basically, the only way they would need different treatment is if we wish to add ammo counters to weapons, and I feel confident in saying that we don't want that. But without the ammo constraints, the only way I see it being handled in a reasonable manner is if we treat the whole ballistic/energy thing as a special effect or "bit-o-fluff".

 

Weapons are fairly simple in most games, Hawken included. You just need to answer a few simple questions;

 

1) How fast does it travel?

2) Does it travel straight, or in an arc?

3) How much damage does it do per hit?

4) Does damage drop decline with range? If so, how quickly does it drop off?

5) Does it have AoE (and self-damage), shotgun spread, or does it just do damage to a single point?

6) How fast does it reload?

7) Is it guided or dos it just go for the crosshairs?

8) How accurate is it? How much dispersion does it have?

9) How much heat is generated per shot?

10) Is it a mine? If so, what are the conditions required for detonation?

 

That's it! It doesn't matter whether it's a rifle, laser, chicken chucker, or snot rocket as those are just special effects; those affect visuals and lore, but not game mechanics. And there are many paths to the same destination. Answering those 10 questions can give you almost any weapon in Hawken, extrapolate new ones as needed, and require no additional mechanics to be coded in because we already have the mechanics for Hellfires, Grenade Launchers, EOC pucks, and hitscan weapons (both regular and flak), so I see no mechanical issues there that need resolving.

 

The only weapons that actually break that "Ten Question" thing are those with special effects like the Breacher's shield piercing ability or the M4MA B3AR's heat generation, but I think that such weapons should be rare and those functions handled by items. I mean, I would HATE facing EMP guns with unlimited ammo! For anything used as a primary or secondary weapon in Hawken, those ten questions pretty much cover all the bases unless you want to change Hawken from a fast-paced shooter into a carnival.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Lasers don't fit into the lore at all. It is supposed to be a brutal war with whatever they can scrap together, not some high-tech arms race. 

Then why nanotechnology that can repair on the spot?

Or clearly energy-based shields and blockades?

[Hyginos]

Then why nanotechnology that can repair on the spot?

Or clearly energy-based shields and blockades?

 

Arguably this stuff is similar to the lostech stuff in the battletech universe: leftovers from a golden age of technology recovered and put to use. I'm not sufficiently familiar with Hawken lore to know if this is the case.

 

I think a plasma cannon PPC thing is totally thematically justifiable, but it is important that it have meaningful mechanical differences from existing weapons.

 

EDIT: as long as you can make it look dirty. That's important.

Edited by Hyginos, 13 April 2015 - 08:26 PM.

[Nightfirebolt]

So a sticky red beam that steals armor from enemies and somehow uses it to heal you is an acceptable addition to the Hawkenverse, but a more conventional laser weapon isn't?

 

o.O

Edited by Nightfirebolt, 14 April 2015 - 02:28 AM.

[bacon_avenger]

So a sticky red beam that steals armor from enemies and somehow uses it to heal you is an acceptable addition to the Hawkenverse, but a more conventional laser weapon isn't?

Tech doesn't have an energy weapon, it uses a nanite machine beam for it's secondary.

 

Mind you, many were not happy about the tech or it's secondary, there were a lot of complaints about it at first (even more than what we have now) due to people thinking it was an energy weapon.

[Jerv]

Tech doesn't have an energy weapon, it uses a nanite machine beam for it's secondary.

 

Mind you, many were not happy about the tech or it's secondary, there were a lot of complaints about it at first (even more than what we have now) due to people thinking it was an energy weapon.

 

Considering how much more difficult nanites are to make than lasers, I still find that kind of BS. And would you care to explain how the SAARE converts heat into ammunition if there are no energy weapons?

 

 

Arguably this stuff is similar to the lostech stuff in the battletech universe: leftovers from a golden age of technology recovered and put to use. I'm not sufficiently familiar with Hawken lore to know if this is the case.

 

I think a plasma cannon PPC thing is totally thematically justifiable, but it is important that it have meaningful mechanical differences from existing weapons.

 

EDIT: as long as you can make it look dirty. That's important.

 

I might be able to buy that except for the fact that it's actually possible to buy a Technician. If it were true lostech, it would probably never be placed in a situation where it could be lost or destroyed, and almost definitely wouldn't be mounted on a mid-priced unit as the Helix torch would be at least as valuable than all the non-Technician mechs on the map and thus the Technician's HC cost would be no less than 50k and likely many times that.

 

No, the Helix is obviously something that is not only known-tech, but actually able to be mass-produced relatively cheaply.

 

Also, Plasma and PPCs are completely different things. I plug my computer into an outlet instead of my fireplace because it runs on electricity instead of heat. So, do you want a plasma or a PPC?

 

The only meaningful mechanical difference from existing weapons I can think of for a PPC that I would find plausible would be that it's likely to use a charged particles and thus have an EMP effect... like the EMP item that we already have the mechanics for.  As stated previously, I see EMP weapons as a bad thing though.

[Hyginos]

Also, Plasma and PPCs are completely different things. I plug my computer into an outlet instead of my fireplace because it runs on electricity instead of heat. So, do you want a plasma or a PPC?

 

I drew a parallel between a plasma cannon and a PPC in an attempt to explain roughly what it is aesthetically to those who are not familiar with the Battletech universe. I meant a plasma cannon in the generic sense, not the Battletech sense. Sorry for the confusion.

 

As for EMP weapons, I don't see much problem with a weapon that scrambles your HUD a bit, maybe a bit like the PPCs in MW4, but it should certainly not disable weapons.

[Jerv]

I drew a parallel between a plasma cannon and a PPC in an attempt to explain roughly what it is aesthetically to those who are not familiar with the Battletech universe. I meant a plasma cannon in the generic sense, not the Battletech sense. Sorry for the confusion.

 

As for EMP weapons, I don't see much problem with a weapon that scrambles your HUD a bit, maybe a bit like the PPCs in MW4, but it should certainly not disable weapons.

 

Ah, I see.

 

As for the HUD scrambling, I see a problem there in that there are enough players who would disable the HUD if they could anyways that that aspect would be largely a cosmetic effect rather than a mechanics one. If you wanted to make it mechanically meaningful, you'd have to ramp it up a little. Not enough to force a reset and thus utterly disable weapons like an EMP item, but enough to make the mech twitch as the servos get hit with a minor surge and thus throw off one's aim. After all, it's really just a side-effect of damage dealt rather than a primary function of the weapon, much like the heat you take when hit by an M4MA.

[AxionOperandi]

......  the only way I see it being handled in a reasonable manner is if we treat the whole ballistic/energy thing as a special effect or "bit-o-fluff".
 

 

By "different mechanic" I meant how the weapon would be physically portrayed in the game in the functional sense of how it would work in theory, not how it would function in game play mechanics terms.

 

It just comes down to coming up with a weapon design that is different from what we already have that would fit in with the premise that it would be energy based. I mean if we had an assault rifle that shoots lasers instead of bullets that would be easy to do and make sense as far as a theoretical weapon but obviously pointless as far as the game is concerned.

[torc]

I'd go with lasers ,plasma,everything you can throw etc...sorry guys but the more weapons are varied, the more variety we have in combat

[KilleR_OrigiNs]

Simple reasoning is all I asked of you.

You failed me.

Edited by KilleR_OrigiNs, 30 April 2015 - 10:04 PM.