206 replies to this topic

[Omega22]

What i actually intended was to  equip 2 different primary guns , if i was a mech that had actual hands , like the ones in Robotech ... then yea this set up would work fine ... but we are mounting equipments and deploying.. we are similar to army tanks.. but we do not have wheels but legs and thrusters...
so why  for the love of the game cant i modify my mech to mount a sub gun, a assualt rifle plus my secondary...

because the gamers are afraid that their skill will be lost and they would be out guned

skill vs firepower

players should be given the option to choose their play style and not the other way around... heard of freedom of expression ...

[AsianJoyKiller]

It is absolutely not okay for firepower to trump skill. That is the worst kind of vertical progression and completely against the intentions of Meteor and Adhesive. It is terrible balance that caters to the lowest common denominator and in the hands of highly skilled players, can be abused to extremes.

Stop arguing for dual wielding weapons just because you think it's cool.
It is not so overwhelmingly awesome that it is worth completely having to do weeks of retooling how weapons are balanced.

Stop arguing that it adds versatility.
It does not add versatility, and in fact LIMITS or REMOVES versatility.

Stop arguing that it adds variety.
It does not add variety. Having two of the same gun, or two similar guns makes for LESS variety.

And stop arguing that we don't have to worry about balance and it's entirely the devs job to worry about it.
You, as a beta tester, are supposed to be thinking about how your suggestions would impact the game, whether they fit aesthetically and whether they fit mechanically.

You refuse to address the balance concerns of your ideas.
You need to realize, until you do so, you only hurt yourself because it shows you have put very little thought into your idea, and they developers are far less likely to consider ideas if they don't think that the author has put much time into their ideas and their main reason for their suggestion is "it's cool".

[Ace4225]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 29 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

It is absolutely not okay for firepower to trump skill. That is the worst kind of vertical progression and completely against the intentions of Meteor and Adhesive. It is terrible balance that caters to the lowest common denominator and in the hands of highly skilled players, can be abused to extremes.

Stop arguing for dual wielding weapons just because you think it's cool.
It is not so overwhelmingly awesome that it is worth completely having to do weeks of retooling how weapons are balanced.

Stop arguing that it adds versatility.
It does not add versatility, and in fact LIMITS or REMOVES versatility.

Stop arguing that it adds variety.
It does not add variety. Having two of the same gun, or two similar guns makes for LESS variety.

And stop arguing that we don't have to worry about balance and it's entirely the devs job to worry about it.
You, as a beta tester, are supposed to be thinking about how your suggestions would impact the game, whether they fit aesthetically and whether they fit mechanically.

You refuse to address the balance concerns of your ideas.
You need to realize, until you do so, you only hurt yourself because it shows you have put very little thought into your idea, and they developers are far less likely to consider ideas if they don't think that the author has put much time into their ideas and their main reason for their suggestion is "it's cool".

[ran out of "likes" for the day]

[Deu]

Man do I hate this guys suggestions. No explanation going to be given.

[Necro]

X2 SMG: 174 Dps 6.5 seconds till overheating.
1174 in 6.5 seconds

X2 AR: 150.4 dps 5.9 seconds to overheat.
884 damage in 5.9 seconds

x2 Vulcan: 199. DPS 4.4 seconds till overheat.
881 damage in 4.4 seconds

x2 Flak: 249.6 dps 3.25 seconds till overheat.
811 in 3,25 seconds

x2 Mini-Flak: 320 dps 3.8 seconds till overheat.
1216 in 3.8 seconds



1216 damage in 3.6 seconds...

Or killing a sniper in the time it takes for him to shoot 2 times.

Or killing C class's in the time it takes for him to hit you with one volly of hellfires.


This is what we are talking about. Even if you miss 1/4 of your shots a C class is still DEAD.

for an A class your can miss OVER 1/2 of your shots and still kill them.
(sorry for the big red letters but i feel it gets the point across)

Edited by Necro, November 29 2012 - 01:14 AM.

[Omega22]

We are in the 21st century and you AsianJoyKiller,Beemann,Ace4225 and others think its absurd to have dual guns . This makes me think we still in DOS ERA ..  We have the technology and genuis minds to do so... if we can launch satalites into the far reaches of space , build the most powerful telescope what is weilding 2 primary guns on a mech is. CRAZY, WOULD NOT WORK

As you guys pointed out in theroy why it would not work... fix the why it wont work and make it work.. When i hold my left mouse button , i want to see both my primary guns firing away and my heat guage building up heat rapidly... my enemy is already on fire and my mech shuts down due to the heat build up and my enemy kills me with his skill ... thats the risk iam willing to take ... its my game play style..

i got less time to use the shift and A or D key... i want to point my cross hair at some enemy mech and rain death...

I woke up , why dont You

[Necro]

Clearly this man is color blind.

[Dread_Lord_Pitr]

Necro, on November 29 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

Clearly this man is color blind.

And as stubborn as a mule.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Omega22, on November 29 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

We are in the 21st century and you AsianJoyKiller,Beemann,Ace4225 and others think its absurd to have dual guns . This makes me think we still in DOS ERA ..  We have the technology and genuis minds to do so... if we can launch satalites into the far reaches of space , build the most powerful telescope what is weilding 2 primary guns on a mech is. CRAZY, WOULD NOT WORK

As you guys pointed out in theroy why it would not work... fix the why it wont work and make it work.. When i hold my left mouse button , i want to see both my primary guns firing away and my heat guage building up heat rapidly... my enemy is already on fire and my mech shuts down due to the heat build up and my enemy kills me with his skill ... thats the risk iam willing to take ... its my game play style..

i got less time to use the shift and A or D key... i want to point my cross hair at some enemy mech and rain death...

I woke up , why dont You

Either post constructively or do not post at all.

At this point, do you realize you have hurt your cause more than anyone else has_

[Omega22]

Necro , thanks for the technical stats about weapon damage... i liked that and thanks.. Using that as a base example lets fix the odds and ends of the inbalance the damage out put would cause.

Lets not look at raw damage ... we can lower them to compensate ... but the cream, the cherry would be , yes we would get an edge in firepower damage output say 10-20% extra damage output  BUT OUR HEATBUILD UP WOULD BE X 2 than not dual weilding..

game balanced !!! Vola ... we have a game that is  suited for both playing style
For skilled players who choose not to dual weild
And for  players who like to rely on raw firepower.. rather than skill

If iam able to dual weild starting out at lvl 1 mech and i enter a TDM with all Lvl 20 mechs , i know i have a chance of having Fun and getting some kills 1 or 2 ... but unable to dual weild, what chance do i stand .. pray for lady luck and try to steal a kill.. It gets frustrating when you are unable to get any kills or experience points the whole 14 mins of the game . Out classed by high level mech and skilled players..

lock and load i say

[Dread_Lord_Pitr]

No.

[Necro]

If you can provide the same mathematical statistics that I have and balance primary/secondary weapons play along side duel primary weapons I will be all for it.

Even a 20% difference in stats and I will send emails to the devs and change my opinion completely.

Here is the catch though, you have to balance and change your duel primary system around the current damage values that are currently in the game not change the systems in the game to fit your idea.

In other words make that 1200 damage balanced without changing the game.

(heat generation does not balance that damage btw)

[Omega22]

Sorry Necro , i think i have voiced my take more than enough to the extent of a Moron ... so no thank you ... Team Hawken you can decide , thank you very much... I will play Hawken for what its worth now ....

[Ace4225]

Omega22, on November 29 2012 - 01:29 AM, said:

Lets not look at raw damage ... we can lower them to compensate ... but the cream, the cherry would be , yes we would get an edge in firepower damage output say 10-20% extra damage output  BUT OUR HEATBUILD UP WOULD BE X 2 than not dual weilding..

By lowering the damage of primary weapons to "compensate" for dual-wielding, you'd make them effectively useless unless you were dual wielding.

ergo, you would not make the game suitable for both skill play and "run n gun." You would destroy most of the competitiveness of the game and make it only suitable for your idea of "cool factor." [it would be a rush for dual-wields just like CB2 was a rush for the OP vulcan]

Edit: We already have high-end graphics, amazing-looking well-animated weapons that really pack some visual punch. Isn't that enough cool factor for you_

Edited by Ace4225, November 29 2012 - 02:24 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Omega22, on November 29 2012 - 01:29 AM, said:

Necro , thanks for the technical stats about weapon damage... i liked that and thanks.. Using that as a base example lets fix the odds and ends of the inbalance the damage out put would cause.
Lets not look at raw damage ... we can lower them to compensate ... but the cream, the cherry would be , yes we would get an edge in firepower damage output say 10-20% extra damage output  BUT OUR HEATBUILD UP WOULD BE X 2 than not dual weilding..
game balanced !!! Vola ...

Here's the first problem, if you tweak damage values, heat values or any values to balance them for dual wielding, then you end up throwing off the balance for standard weapon combos. You literally cannot have the weapons balanced for both standard loadouts and dual loadouts.

Now on to the second problem.2x heat generation does not equal balance. And here's the math to prove it.

A C-class mech that has been fully outfitted for maximum health, will have 928 armor.

2x SMCs will do 174 Damage per Second and take 6.7 seconds to overheat.
Dual SMCs will kill a 928 health C-Class in 5.3 seconds.

A SMC/TOW combo does 124 Damage per Second and takes 9.8 seconds to overheat.
The SMC/TOW combo will kill a 928 health C-Class in 7.5 seconds.

That means it takes 2.2 seconds longer for the SMC/TOW combo to kill that mech than the dual SMC. That means that dual SMCs can kill 29% faster than a standard combo. As you can see, the doubled heat generation does nothing to counter the superior killing power.

Let's take it further, and look at other dual combos and how fast they would kill the 928 health C-Class.

x2 AR take 6.1 seconds to kill the mech.
x2 Vulcans take 4.6 seconds to kill it.
x2 Flak takes 3.7 seconds to kill it.
x2 Miniflak takes 2.9 seconds to kill it.
The Vulcan and Flak would both overheat before killing the mech, but by letting off the trigger for just a half second, that can be completely avoided.

Here's another thing to consider.
Using weapons like dual SMCs or dual Miniflaks is much easier than using a SMC/TOW combo or a Miniflak/TOW combo. With SMCs, Miniflaks (and since they are the most effective dual combos, they will be the most used) and the like, all you really have to do is get in range, point at your target and hold down the trigger to get optimal DPS.
On the other hand, in order for a gun/TOW combo user to get optimal DPS, they have to manage to get direct hits with the TOW every time. And getting direct hits consistently with a relatively slow moving projectile is much more difficult than doing so with bullet weapons.

Quote

we have a game that is  suited for both playing style
For skilled players who choose not to dual weild
And for  players who like to rely on raw firepower.. rather than skill

As I've shown above, the dual wielded weapons can be far more effective than a standard combo.
This means that the benefit of using easy weapons far outweighs the benefits of using skilled weapons.
And in fact, even if a skilled player uses the standard combo perfectly, the will still lose to the dual combo.

Quote

If iam able to dual weild starting out at lvl 1 mech and i enter a TDM with all Lvl 20 mechs , i know i have a chance of having Fun and getting some kills 1 or 2 ... but unable to dual weild, what chance do i stand .. pray for lady luck and try to steal a kill.. It gets frustrating when you are unable to get any kills or experience points the whole 14 mins of the game . Out classed by high level mech and skilled players..

lock and load i say

You can already compete with Lvl. 20 mechs as a Lvl. 1.
It's just a matter of skill.

Any sort of system that allows a significantly less skilled player to compete with a more skilled play just by having different gear or weapons is a extremely broken system that is not at all balanced, and very open to abuse.
And think of this, if you're already having trouble fighting more skilled players, what chance do you have fighting them if they can use the same dual wielding combos and kill you in less than 3 seconds_
Do you really think that would be fun_

[Omega22]

Asian joy what you said : 2x SMCs will do 174 Damage per Second and take 6.7 seconds to overheat.
Dual SMCs will kill a 928 health C-Class in 5.3 seconds

You mean to say a c class mech or any other mech is simply going to be a open target , like shoot me...that is based on assumption that the mech is stationery .  if its moving, if its fast, if the player is skilled, then by golly its going to take lot more than 5.3 seconds....to kill... so please ... heck i truly appreciate your insight and views.  but me choosing to dual wield is my choice alone,,,

hey bud what about those who hack and cheat .. nobody complains about that...

so to cut a long story short.. i want to have 2  primary guns on my mech.. period

[AsianJoyKiller]

Again, you are wrong.
You show you are not actually thinking about this and ignoring the parts of my argument that that don't help you, instead of addressing them.


You ignored this:

Quote

That means it takes 2.2 seconds longer for the SMC/TOW combo to kill that mech than the dual SMC. That means that dual SMCs can kill 29% faster than a standard combo. As you can see, the doubled heat generation does nothing to counter the superior killing power.

So obviously, that just means if it takes more than 5.3 seconds to kill a C-class with x2 SMCs just because it's dodging, then it will still take even longer to kill using a standard weapon combo.
You also did absolutely nothing to address the fact that dual wielding give vastly superior firepower, while taking less skill to use.

Unless you can come up with actual proof that someone is hacking, I think you are just crying wolf. I have been playing since alpha, and I have yet to see a single instance of hacking. Nobody complains about the existence of hackers in Hawken unless they are terrible and can't handle being outskilled.

Oh, and guess what_
This:

Quote

so to cut a long story short.. i want to have 2  primary guns on my mech.. period

That is not a valid reason. The only time that sort of reasoning is valid, is if you are a small child. Little kids want to have candy and ice cream for dinner because they like it, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.
Only children consider "just because" to be a valid reason to have something.

Just to be clear, I'm saying you are acting like a child.

[D20Face]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 29 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

Just to be clear, I'm saying you are acting like a child.

I know this is hard to accept and I wish this weren't the case myself. But there are children on this forum.

It's not like it was back before alpha where it was assumed that everybody was an adult.

Edited by D20Face, November 29 2012 - 08:08 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

D20Face, on November 29 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on November 29 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

Just to be clear, I'm saying you are acting like a child.

I know this is hard to accept and I wish this weren't the case myself. But there are children on this forum.
It's not like it was back before alpha where it was assumed that everybody was an adult.

Hawken is ESRB rated for teen, so I go ahead and assume he at least has the reasoning skills of a 13 year old, and not a 5 year old.

[D20Face]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 29 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

Hawken is ESRB rated for teen, so I go ahead and assume he at least has the reasoning skills of a 13 year old, and not a 5 year old.

Even worse.