206 replies to this topic

[Sylhiri]

If you can convince me with actual proof that you can include both dual guns and what we have now without effecting the other in terms of balance while including internals, skill trees, items (such as shields) and most important of all mech special skills then I'll be more inclined to go on your side.

If you try to change the SMG to balance dual weapons your ultimately changing how it is effected with single weapons.

[Ace4225]

the only way I could see dual primary weapons working is if all the mechs have the ability to mount 2.. but then it should be any 2 they want.. not just 2 of the same.

However, it would require a redesign of all the mech chassis and a complete reworking of the control schemes, throw all the balancing issues already teetering on a slippery slope off the cliff into utter chaos... etc etc

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

i see both of you and what you are saying.

firstly, let the classes still only get their weapon-sets. And also allow dual wielding only for higherlevel characters.

that fixes the previous balance issues , and also allows more choice, at the same time.

Sylhiri point can be fairly easily answered.

Think of it like this, You are Sacrificing the Tow Rocketlauncher for another smg. That sacrifice is huge.
i can't take out turret's instantly anymore

i can't poke peoples health around corners

i can't hit the battleship in siege mode as easily, if at all.

i can't seem to kill people with bullet resistance mods on at all.

.......that would be the kind of hard choices, intelligent choices, good game-play choices, i want to see.

[Moderator03]

Please keep all posts constructive and inviting.

Thanks,
The HAWKEN Moderation Team

[Sylhiri]

Don't be forgetting that Assaults ability of dropping heat down to zero whenever you feel like it so you can have continual fire for a very long period of time. Even without the ability you can run a SMG until near overheated and switch to the secondary, allowing the heat to go back down so you have a near never ending stream of bullets as you can keep cycling the weapons. This presents a problem with other weapons too, like the miniflak and vulcan which is tailored to be high heat so that the DPS isn't overpowered. Even if you wanted to balance this out by lowering the damage or increasing the heat you are doing the same thing with the single weapons at the same time, this basically makes people have to use the dual weapon style to overcome the nerfing of weapons. The DPS of single weapon users would be horribly outmatched by dual weapon users when it comes to the damage boosting abilities as well.

The shield item allows you to block all incoming bullets for quite a lengthy period of time while you are able to shoot through the barrier. This not only effectively cuts the DPS of single weapon players by half or less it also ensures that everyone would need to get the shield item to fight effectively against dual weapon users.

Also don't forget that explosive type weapons, even more so the auto seeking weapons could not only cycle for continuous fire but the AoE explosive damage would pretty much kill people hiding behind walls for cover. Explosive weapons also have stopping power so your pretty much stuck if you get hit once until your dead. The shield that everyone bought to help against the dual bullet users is now completely useless since AoE blasts goes through them.

Turrets take a while to turn around and in the case that they are firing at you it would take a second or two with duels to kill them. This also does not help Siege mode at all as the Battleship would go down so easy you end up in hour long matches. And increasing the HP of everyone would destroy single weapon users outright.

This dual weapon suggestion doesn't give more options at all, it forces people to use dual weapons or they end up out matched. There is more strategy involved when it comes to single weapons then having the "guns blazing" dual weapons.

Edited by Sylhiri, November 28 2012 - 08:28 PM.

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

I see everything you said up until the conclusion.

The mixing in abilties although important misses the point that abilities make the gameplay better as well. But they are seperate mechanics.

sacrificing the AMAZING TOW is a huge sacrifice. would i do it_ maybe on some mechs. do i want to dual wield smgs on my beserker_ hell yes.

On my brawler mech i would still keep the tow and have one rifle. I can't '' endlessly cycle '' like some assault . Im a Brawler.

in this example even with dual wielding an option, i would still take rifel/tow combo for flexibility.


having LIMITED DUAL WEAPON SELECTION is the key idea. currently each class has 3 weapons. allow them to dual wield and all the classes are better off.

more fun to play as them, more fun to fight against them. More pride and personalization in mechs.

better harder stronger faster deeper gameplay.

[Beemann]

Edited post: Please remember personal attacks are not allowed on the forum, thanks!

[Omega22]

Yes equiping dual primary weapons is a choice, Knowing very well that equiping both dual weapons will offset the balance in terms of damage etc... yes but that opens a big void to work and figure out on ways to compensate for the offset that will arise.

In the end we would like to see Mechs that we can tinker with , swaping gun slots is a tactic , building that perfect mech that we can take into battle and have a good confidence that i can do some good hunting and killing...

[Beemann]

Omega22, on November 28 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

Yes equiping dual primary weapons is a choice, Knowing very well that equiping both dual weapons will offset the balance in terms of damage etc... yes but that opens a big void to work and figure out on ways to compensate for the offset that will arise.

In the end we would like to see Mechs that we can tinker with , swaping gun slots is a tactic , building that perfect mech that we can take into battle and have a good confidence that i can do some good hunting and killing...

Except you already CAN swap primary weapons and tinker with your mech (via items and a hopefully revamped optimizations+internals system)
Instead of making the game less balanced and more shallow, why don't we work on what it currently is_

[Dread_Lord_Pitr]

Omega22, on November 25 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

It would be great to see Mechs having Dual Primary Guns , example 2 Assualt rifles  or sub machine guns

No thanks, i'd rather not see this game go the COD route.

[Omega22]

This is a FPS...FAST...FRANTIC..SHOOTER .... SHOOTING , BLOW STUFF UP ....

But in a suit of Armour ... a Mech

so please dont say COD Route... Where COD is and were and what Hawken is are miles apart

Thank you ...

[Dread_Lord_Pitr]

Omega22, on November 28 2012 - 09:52 PM, said:

This is a FPS...FAST...FRANTIC..SHOOTER .... SHOOTING , BLOW STUFF UP ....

But in a suit of Armour ... a Mech

so please dont say COD Route... Where COD is and were and what Hawken is are miles apart

Thank you ...

Yet you suggest a game mod that comes straight from the COD series.
But indeed, Hawken and COD are miles apart (thanks FSM for that) and i'd like to keep it that way, so no, no dual wielding primaries, because, again, i don't want this to become COD in Mechs.

[Omega22]

Why stick to one taste and one Flavour ... we should have Versatility  !!! and having a mixed up flavour for all players of all types...

so lets not have a one track mind set  but  open to enless possibilities of change...

dont be afraid of change ...

[AsianJoyKiller]

Omega22, on November 28 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

Why stick to one taste and one Flavour ... we should have Versatility  !!! and having a mixed up flavour for all players of all types...

so lets not have a one track mind set  but  open to enless possibilities of change...

dont be afraid of change ...

You're saying we should have more versatility and variety, but do you realize what your suggesting is actually LESS versatile and means LESS variety_

[Beemann]

What's more versatile about having two of the same thing_

[PlagueDoctor]

As much as I want a Rifleman now, I don't think I'd actually want it after a while. Gimmicks!

Edited by PlagueDoctor, November 28 2012 - 10:45 PM.

[Omega22]

Then i think they should negate the heat issue and go with limited ammo .. instead of unlimited supply of ammo.. Lets make as realistic as possible and having limited ammo is the way to go ..

cause everyone is raving and ranting about dual weilding primary

[Ace4225]

you want multiples of a particular weapon, just go play Mechwarrior. There's already a system for limited ammo, balance between weight/heat gen/ammo consumption/damage output, and a huge variety of mech chassis.

However, in a more arcade-style shooter like this, the simplicity of everyone having one primary and one secondary is centered around strategy with the two weapons and how they handle differently. Replacing the secondary with a second primary would not only limit firepower, but would dumb down the skill it takes to play it well.

Personally, I'd find it boring to have two assault rifles instead of the versatile TOW on hand.

[Omega22]

and crying and complaing starts again lol

[Ace4225]

I'm not complaining. I'm telling you why I think it's a bad idea. You can't expect people to like your ideas or agree with them.