288 replies to this topic

[MechMechanic]

TheDubstepDisciple said:

After that little prayer to the PC gods with a foolish disregard for the effects of capitalism I'm suddenly very disengaged.

Good day.

To the remorse of idiocy and the path of ignorance a game is sacrificed with a foolish disregard for quality and the sake of the game. I'm suddenly very disengaged.

Good day.

^^.

Some wise words are needed in here....

"If a game is designed initially for the PC, a much better game will result. From there, the developers can tone it down to be manageable on consoles (lock FPS, turn on crappy match making, diminish graphics and other things of the sort).

If people prefer the convenience of consoles despite their shortcomings, that's perfectly fine. The issue is not about what people prefer, it's about what design mentality will result in a better game for all (PCs)."

[DarkS7ar]

I HAVE LOVE DAMNIT!!!

Give me a Hawken on Xbox and I'll make the top leader boards of this game! ALL HAIL DESTRUCTION OF CUPCAKE!

[MechMechanic]

DarkS7ar said:

I HAVE LOVE DAMNIT!!!

Give me a Hawken on Xbox and I'll make the top leader boards of this game! ALL HAIL DESTRUCTION OF CUPCAKE!

....he lost it.....

[Hawk1111]

Adhesive games is hoping to release Hawken on all the major platform:
Playstation 3 and Xbox 360
But for now the only thing that's 100% sure is that it will be available on PC. They are looking into it but it might not be for the consoles yet.

The people that fund Adhesive Games Ltd. has never been announced but i am pretty sure it is not EA or any other major publishing company.

[1lb_4Effect]

Adhesive games wants and needs money so grow up PC gamers they should put it on PS3,PC, and Xbox so they get more money to make games you selfish immature people. By the way they made less controls anyways for PS3 and Xbox so accept it. :evil:

[RedVan]

KitbashHD said:

Adhesive games wants and needs money so grow up PC gamers they should put it on PS3,PC, and Xbox so they get more money to make games you selfish immature people. By the way they made less controls anyways for PS3 and Xbox so accept it. :evil:

please go through the conversation before posting.  thanks

[SToFo]

As other have said, as long as it doesn't hurt the PC-version (texture quality etc) then I don't see any harm in it... I think this game would do well in the xbox live marketplace and Playstation Network. Maybe we could all even play together_ Hmmm_ Learn to "get along" so to speak, by killing each other in mechs

[Envy661]

Well, if it comes out exclusively for the PC, I most likely won't be getting it. The PC is my MMO gamestation only. I've tried PC gaming, and I hate not having a controller in my hands for games like this.

I support a massive Xbox 360 release.

[lunithy]

Quote

Some wise words are needed in here....

"If a game is designed initially for the PC, a much better game will result. From there, the developers can tone it down to be manageable on consoles (lock FPS, turn on crappy match making, diminish graphics and other things of the sort).

If people prefer the convenience of consoles despite their shortcomings, that's perfectly fine. The issue is not about what people prefer, it's about what design mentality will result in a better game for all (PCs)."

Quote

If there was a diagram showing PC motherboards compared to the bandwidth diagram of the Playstation 3, you might be shocked to see some of the narrow bandwidths provided in PCs. Not that this is a primary concern for some games, because you’d also notice that the bandwidth on top end graphics cards today are already well beyond the bandwidth that the RSX and Xenos have to video memory. A top end GeForce or Radeon card has around 50GB/s bandwidth between the GPU and its video ram, while the RSX only has 22.4 GB/s (maybe up to 48GB/s if it uses the extra bandwidth it can get). This factors in greatly with the texture detail and levels of filtering displayed on PC games as compared to those in console games. On a PC, higher quality textures and expensive texture filters are used liberally to take advantage of this added bandwidth. Many games enable these features for relatively easy improvements in visual quality according to the end user’s graphics card capabilities.
Given the situation that all textures and frame buffer operations mostly stay in video memory, PCs operate visually superior to that of consoles given the higher end graphics cards. However, given the faster communication between console CPUs and GPUs, consoles are generally in a better position to pick up the slack in processing, and possibly bandwidth. On the Playstation 3, the FlexIO bus offers some processing power to be tapped into from the Cell for vertex and possibly even texture filtering. Additionally, because XDR RAM is connected to the Cell, the RSX can use this bus as added bandwidth for various operations that are feasible. In the best case scenario, simply using XDR RAM to handle half of the video memory bandwidth consumption, would possibly double the bandwidth of the RSX to 48GB/s. However, the situation is likely not as ideal as an added bus given that the flow of memory goes through two memory controllers, and is shared bandwidth with the Cell processor.

Bandwidth in the areas of sound processing, networking, hard drive, and other I/O related devices are very low and typically aren’t bandwidth limited generally on either front.

CPU performance:
CPUs on PCs are general purpose. They are able to handle a wide variety of operations on an acceptable level so long as an application doesn’t demand an obscene amount of a computing resource it doesn’t provide a lot of. The mainstream CPUs are all x86 based and are scalar processors – meaning they execute one operation at a time (on a single pipeline per core) on one piece of data. General purpose CPUs have gotten extremely fast at executing instructions, but this improvement has not matched by the rate of which data can be given to it. Due to this, a large part of die space on a CPU is taken up by hardware aimed to hide memory access times. This added hardware dissipates a lot of heat and lowers the overall efficiency of the CPU to keep it running fast. This hardware is needed in the general purpose computing
domain since random accesses to memory and many different types of operations are frequent due to application switching, and even a single application that has many random variables and functions. This general purpose computing speed is not needed as much for games and the extra hardware and heat generated would not be desirable for games.

Intel/AMD are the primary manufacturers of desktop CPUs today and all have huge amounts of die space allocated to general purpose computing and hiding latency. However, to not be completely outdone by the world of SIMD processing, MMX, 3DNow!, and SSE technologies were added to these general purpose CPUs to improve their 3D gaming and multimedia functions. These SIMD instruction sets and hardware are still behind the single VMX instruction set and hardware included in the Cell’s PPE, and even further behind the SPE and VMX-128 instruction sets as they only have 16 registers as opposed to 32 or 128. SSE only recently supported operations that operate between elements in the same vector register with SSE3, although 3DNow! had this functionality from the start. MMX and 3DNow! also share registers with the x86 floating point registers which means they cannot execute simultaneously with x86 floating point code(x87). Since then, this may have been changed to allow for easy context switching, or offering exclusive registers to avoid the switch between scalar and vector floating point operations.

SSE, MMX, 3DNow! don’t even begin to scratch the power offered on a single SPE on the Cell. Not to mention the Cell has 7 of them in addition to the VMX-128 instruction set. For games processing, Intel/AMD CPUs are vastly outdone, and they will not be catching up this generation or the next. Buying newer and newer CPUs will not increase PC gaming performance drastically, and they won’t be catching up to the Cell for a long time.


I've had this out with someone else on another forum, the Cell is an impressive piece of kit but what's the point of having such power if know one is prepared but yourselves (in this case Sony) will invest the time, money and resources in trying to understand how it works and how to get the most out of it. About 95% of all PS3 games use just the main PPE and none of SPE’s, the only game I can think of that makes use of half the Cells power is Uncharted Drakes Fortune which I believe uses 3 or 4 SPE’s (Killzone looks as if it uses a handful).

It doesn’t rest there either just because the SPE’s are being used it doesn’t mean they are being used efficiently, programming for multi-core standard processes is hard enough let alone trying to work on a Cell. I’m also not convinced that FPS need anything more then a Dual core CPU, look at Crysis benchmarks there’s hardly any benefit from going from a Dual to a quad core (at the same clockrate) a few frames at best. I’m not saying the CPU isn’t important but the balance of power over the last 6 years has fundamentally shifted importance from the CPU to the video card (notably in FPS games, not so much in RTS games where the CPU is often the bottleneck) and this is where the PS3 and 360 are let down. They can have all the theoretical CPU bandwidth it wants but the consoles will be able to play games as fast as the slowest point allows and that is the video chipset.

Intel and AMD chips biggest advantage is x86, you can have all the SPE's you want but a basic coding standard like x86 does more to help programmers then getting them to learn how a Cell chip works.

And on last wee bit.....  

Quote

But Can Your PC Run Battlefield 3_

Over the weekend, hardware specifications for one of the PC's most anticipated games of 2011 appeared on GameStop's website. They've since been removed, but the internet never forgets.

The specifications, which may or may not be final, read as follows:

    Minimum

    Hard Drive Space: 15 GB for disc version or 10 GB for digital version
    OS: Windows Vista or Windows 7
    Processor: Core 2 Duo @ 2.0GHzRAM2GB
    Video Card: DirectX 10 or 11 compatible Nvidia or AMD ATI card

    Recommended

    Hard Drive Space: 15 GB for disc version or 10 GB for digital version
    OS: Windows 7 64-bit
    Processor: Quad-core Intel or AMD CPURAM 4GB
    Video Card: DirectX 11 Nvidia or AMD ATI card, GeForce GTX 460, Radeon Radeon HD 6850

[Mech Mechanic]

The game should be available only for the PC. If it does perform well then later on port it to whatever shitty console out there.

[Guru_Zeb]

*WARNING WALL OF TEXT* ( Deal with it  ... or go play with your iphone instead )

lunithy said:

Quote

If there was a diagram showing PC motherboards compared to the bandwidth diagram of the Playstation 3, ... (bla bla bla snipped)

1st let me just say i really struggle to take seriously people who present an argument via other peoples quotes. Especially unattributed quotes.
I did scan the quote. You could have culled it a little to focus more on your points ... but then maybe your not sure exactly what they are.
i'll assume that its intended to suggest that 'theoretically' consoles offer a superior platform for gaming.
The sad truth is consoles offer a superior platform for manufacturers to make profits, and thats all. Now i'd support you in that.

Lets ignore the fact the quote makes the point that very few developers do anything other than just use the surface level of console capabilities ( this has always been so look back over the literature ) You may think that shows they have the ability to surpass the PC but the reality is by the end of their product life very few devs will have used those abilities. There is little drive to use them on console dev since it is largely a sausage factory approach.

Problem with you trying to put forward this argument, is its obvious you don't have any personal knowledge of development. The quote you use seems solely focused on GRAPHICS. Some of us adults stopped thinking graphics equal gameplay around when the Atari Jaguar got released.  :roll:
The obvious conclusion is thus that if graphics do not equal gameplay, then graphics do not equal good games.
If you believe graphics equal gameplay please state it clearly and i'll come back and ridicule you with dozens of examples.  :roll:
Of course am not saying graphics do not matter but they do not equal a good game. The whole games industry is being vandalised by graphic whoring it replaces innovation and variety on far too many occasions these days, and produces consumerised gamers who lap up substandard games with pretty graphics. Thus gradually lowering the bar and allowing lazy developers to substitute graphics for depth.

Ok now we have established that graphics do not equal good games. Which pretty much demolishes your entire argument.
Lets expand the discussion.

Evidence on the ground.
With all this penned up console potential there must be dozens of examples of dual platform games where the console version completely pwns the PC even just on the graphics alone ...... since this was the major substance of your argument__
So name the examples, i'll name dozens where exactly the opposite happened and i'll also name dozens where the PC was massively shackled by devs who focused assets and content on what was possible on a console and produced a widely accepted inferior PC game.

Lets not dwell too long on the list of gameplay fails this introduces, but.
Weak pathetic AI, substandard textures, smaller less interactive environments, smaller less complex gaming experiences, etc etc.

Controls interfaces
Do i really need to do more than just put the heading out there.
Controls are utterly pathetic on consoles they lack enough options to run mid ranking RTS and flight sim type games. And many hugely respected PC games just cannot function on a console due to the crippling gamepad
requirement.
The origins of the game pad are quite interesting. Originally when N00btendo developed the pad they had one overriding design goal. To produce a controller that could be trodden on by an adult and still work.
Yeah pads are better now  .... but not by that much.

lunithy said:

And on last wee bit.....    But Can Your PC Run Battlefield 3_

Yeah actually 2 of my PC can piss all over the specs, and another one could function very well as a private server for about 70-80 players
Can your CrapBox or LameStation do that__
But .... LMFAO .... Why would i want to when i can play Arma at 1080p at 60FPS _!_!_!
with a 100+ other human players ........ and fly helicopters, bombers, strike planes, drive tanks, armoured cars, and jeeps. All in an massively HiFi environment with awesome physics and realistic balistics, etc.
BF3 is 12 year olds version of Arma with Hawx like vehicles and no real ballistics at all. But guess what platform they use to showcase it ......

lunithy said:

    Minimum

    Hard Drive Space: 15 GB for disc version or 10 GB for digital version
    OS: Windows Vista or Windows 7
    Processor: Core 2 Duo @ 2.0GHzRAM2GB
    Video Card: DirectX 10 or 11 compatible Nvidia or AMD ATI card

    Recommended

    Hard Drive Space: 15 GB for disc version or 10 GB for digital version
    OS: Windows 7 64-bit
    Processor: Quad-core Intel or AMD CPURAM 4GB
    Video Card: DirectX 11 Nvidia or AMD ATI card, GeForce GTX 460, Radeon Radeon HD 6850

Dunno what point your trying to make here m8. The PC always evolves always moves forward on a month by month basis thats because its a truly independent platform owned by no one company. Driven by hundreds of companies all struggling to outdo their competitors. Thats why its capabilities are and always will be way ahead of a console.

As i've said previously am not here to bash consoles, i own some myself and you'd need a gun, or very high level jujitsu to get my dreamcast away from me. But many console kiddies seem to completely misunderstand the PC games calling for a 'proper' PC version. This is not a call to ignore the consoles but an appeal to make sure that each platform gets a product that pushes the level its capable of. Rather that a pure console game thats ported to the PC presenting an eviscerated gaming experience.

[RedVan]

lunithy said:

And on last wee bit.....    But Can Your PC Run Battlefield 3_

Yes

Quote

Over the weekend, hardware specifications for one of the PC's most anticipated games of 2011 appeared on GameStop's website. They've since been removed, but the internet never forgets.

The specifications, which may or may not be final, read as follows:

    Minimum

    Hard Drive Space: 15 GB for disc version or 10 GB for digital version
    OS: Windows Vista or Windows 7
    Processor: Core 2 Duo @ 2.0GHzRAM2GB
    Video Card: DirectX 10 or 11 compatible Nvidia or AMD ATI card

    Recommended

    Hard Drive Space: 15 GB for disc version or 10 GB for digital version
    OS: Windows 7 64-bit
    Processor: Quad-core Intel or AMD CPURAM 4GB
    Video Card: DirectX 11 Nvidia or AMD ATI card, GeForce GTX 460, Radeon Radeon HD 6850

Are you trying to make a point in saying that "They've since been removed, but the internet never forgets."_  lmfao.  Let me guess, you're trying to say "haha the specs are too high for PC gamers so they took the specs off".  Hardly.

1.  Recommended specs are generally to run the game near max settings.  And those recommended specs aren't anything special.  I build my desktop almost 3 years ago now, and all I'd have to do to get those recommended specs is upgrade my graphics from a GTX285 to the GTX460.  Or I could just buy another 285 for dirt cheap, SLI it, and get pretty close.

Now, you have me confused with the "4GB processor" part.  Processors aren't rated in GB, they're GHz.  A 4GHz processor may well be the recommended, but I guarantee my 3 yr old 2.6GHz won't have a problem given a new GPU (Graphic Processor Unit).  This "4GB" you speak of could be RAM_  If so, 4GB is pretty standard.  I have 6GB myself.

2.  PC games are scalable.  That means that if your PC is between the minimum and recommended, or over the recommended, you'll be able to run the game.  (I've even ran some games while under spec'd back in the day)

3.  Consoles level of graphics are far lower than you'll get running it PC recommended specs.  As people always say:  A console is simply a $400 PC in a conveniently easy to sell, yet impossible to upgrade box.

4.  Every console game has been made on PC.  If anyone developing a console game wants, they can release it for PC and allow it to have much better graphics.  Basically what they do is make the game, then dumb it down so that it fits within the sub par capabilities of consoles.

Now, I'm not trying to be a console basher here...  I could care less that people play on consoles.  Just don't go saying consoles are better than PCs lol.  That's just laughable.

Consoles are nice in that they're convenient:  easy to transport, no need to worry about upgrading (although you're not going to get much graphics updates in your games from year to year)...  They're built for convenience, for the masses.  PCs are for people that want to take it to the next level.

Again I'll mention:  Those recommended specs for BF3 aren't anything special.  Also, BF3 looks boring.  WTB HAWKEN

[lunithy]

You guy's need to grow up! or chill out a bit it's getting way to elitist in these forums on who knows what who is hard core true sim player WARNING!! long post editing spelling bee Key Board bandit calling people children I ****'n wish  :twisted:
Thank you for taking the time to reply they are post's from other people from years ago... To show the futility of arguing about such shit ....I wrote none off it .... so I'm not going to wast my time explaining other than hook line and sinker.

PC people WTF!!! is that supposed to mean__
PC is such a generic term! I have had a PC from the days of the Commodore VIC 20, 64, 128, Amiga (now didn't they embarrassed the shit of Apple and friends and still the only true multitasking PC) 286, 386, 486, BLAH! BLAH!

In 33 years of gaming the one thing I have come to understand that the skill is in how you use what you have ... 64k demo anyone_ oh that's right you need more than that for the icon my bad. :mrgreen: and yes I have a PC I love my toshi sat i5 520m gt330m 8g lap top and my P5Q e6600 gt9800 4g desky lol still have 3 working A500's and a 2000hd.
And for the record I to hope that it is released for PC with suitable attention to detail in regards to the graphical leap that can be had on a PC fellas OK 8-) the game play will depend on how the online community can access anyone else that wont's to play this game at a lobby server point of view that's where allot of good games fail.

[Guru_Zeb]

lunithy said:

You guy's need to grow up! or chill out a bit it's getting way to elitist in these forums on who knows what who is hard core true sim player WARNING!! long post editing spelling bee Key Board bandit calling people children I ****'n wish  :twisted:
Thank you for taking the time to reply they are post's from other people from years ago... To show the futility of arguing about such shit ....I wrote none off it .... so I'm not going to wast my time explaining other than hook line and sinker.

PC people WTF!!! is that supposed to mean__
PC is such a generic term! I have had a PC from the days of the Commodore VIC 20, 64, 128, Amiga (now didn't they embarrassed the shit of Apple and friends and still the only true multitasking PC) 286, 386, 486, BLAH! BLAH!

In 33 years of gaming the one thing I have come to understand that the skill is in how you use what you have ... 64k demo anyone_ oh that's right you need more than that for the icon my bad. :mrgreen: and yes I have a PC I love my toshi sat i5 520m gt330m 8g lap top and my P5Q e6600 gt9800 4g desky lol still have 3 working A500's and a 2000hd.
And for the record I to hope that it is released for PC with suitable attention to detail in regards to the graphical leap that can be had on a PC fellas OK 8-) the game play will depend on how the online community can access anyone else that wont's to play this game at a lobby server point of view that's where allot of good games fail.

hmmmmmmmm am struggling to understand what your so butt hurt about m8 ___ :shock:
You post a msg largely made up of a very long unattributed quote, you don't add much of your own comment to give some context.
Now i fully confess to taking the piss quite a bit ........ but i always do that.
But i think i more than make up for that by presenting plenty of concrete factual points. Some may have been redundant if you'd added a little more context in your own comment.
I don't see at all any elitism here, i clearly state as i have in every single debate about platforms that I am not here to bash consoles, I want a game that pushes all platforms and thats not shackled or held back by any. Redvan did the same.
Don't see how thats elitist m8.
Arma is a game with pretty HiFi physics and dynamics in all areas thats just a fact m8. Imho BF3 is a kids version of Arma ( many agree with me on this )
If upset by the lamestation/crapbox phrases, am sorry but i do like to take the piss. you will NEVER hear me moaning or whining about ANYONE doing the same to me. I like to have a laugh online. Lots of its not even directed squarely at you, unless you fall into the categories i mention.
I'd expect a thicker skin on man my own age  
As it is genuinely just taking the piss.
Is there a national move to kill the piss take in Aus these days, 'cause all the Aussies i have ever know ( and i've know quite a few our town used to be full of Aussies due to RLFB ) loved to take the piss and have the crac. Never took obvious piss taking personally or seriously.
Yeah full agree it is what you do with a platform that counts, am the 1st to state console hardware is far more capable than most of the titles you see. I too am old enough to have seen the insane bloat in games size as larger storage came along it just seemed to get used purely because it ws there.
Maybe you'd have got slightly different responses if you'd included some of that stuff in your initial msg m8

[lunithy]

Quote

Maybe you'd have got slightly different responses if you'd included some of that stuff in your initial msg m8

Yes taking the piss was not the best thing for a first post :oops: out of context didn't work out I was hoping for more of a who the hell is this idiot banter ...soz :roll:  I had read allot of posts in various threads and noticed your at times large post's though as you say full of much information that and a few beers and there you go instant foot in mouth.
And I would agree "that the insane bloat in games size as larger storage came along it just seemed to get used purely because it ws there." Just one look at my old sig should give a hint MGS ON A BLUE RAY!!!!

[k0rN_b4LL]

Mech I think you need to chill out a little bit.   You have some valid points that you are trying to get across but I'm pretty sure you can do it without coming across as an angry fanboy asshole.


I'm a console games so I'll admit right now that I don't know much about PC gaming.   I gotta admit that it looks to me like most games are better on PCs than on consoles (usually at least) and to me it just seems like the main reasons for this are better and deeper controls (you can do alot more with a mouse and keyboard than you can with a controller) as well as customization (i.e. modding).  Performance wise it seems to me like the comparison depends on how good the computer each player has.   People with high end rigs are obviously gonna get better stuff out of it, but for people with lower end rigs they are gonna have a rough time unless the game is scaled back a bit so more people can play.  With making games for consoles I think that they are following this same mentality just taken to another level.  For a game like this I personally hope that they focus on the PC version first and then work on making a console version once they are done with that.   If the console version needs to come out at a later time to make sure that it is polished properly then so be it, much rather have that than a quick port with controls that work with a controller.   And no they don't need to wait for the next generation either, just take a month or two after the PC release to get the console version in working order.

[Guru_Zeb]

K0rN b4LL said:

And no they don't need to wait for the next generation either, just take a month or two after the PC release to get the console version in working order.

This is one issue where i put aside my PC fascist hat in favour of fairness and marketing priorities.
There is not much of a reason to peg back releases on other platforms, as the porting process with UDK is highly streamlined. Not like trying the same thing with a 98% bug tested in house engine and inadequate tools.
Porting UDK to other platforms is highly know quantity. Thus quite predictable.
In addition IMHO spread releases confuse the press, they loose interest after the 1st, and not at all or only half heartedly cover the 2nd/subsequent. They can also signal to some players that 'their' platform is lower level priority.
Nothing is worse than waiting god knows how long in a state of semi-rapture for a new game. Then it comes out for a different platform 1st, and you get to wait for 2-3 months, can you hear the sound of gamers
grating their teeth. Whatever platform that sucks.
These issues can have an adverse affect on the games marketing IMHO.
Of course its a issue for adhesive but I don't have a big issue waiting a little longer if need be for a full spectrum release.

[k0rN_b4LL]

Maybe but any time they just port over a PC game to console you can feel in the controls that it was a PC games and doesn't really handle well with a controller. (Duke Nukem Forever is the most recent example that I can think of)  I hope they take a bit of time (whether its before release or after the PC version I don't really care) to make the controls for the console version fit the controller style better.

[Naraklok]

Not going to get into a heated battle; but I have no love for modern-era consoles.


My heart goes to the PC, and the PC alone.

[Mech Mechanic]

Naraklok said:

Not going to get into a heated battle; but I have no love for modern-era consoles.


My heart goes to the PC, and the PC alone.

Yeah, the consoles can seriously fuck off. I'm tired of those pieces of shit ruining great games like this.

If you want this for the consoles, wait for the next generation of consoles. For sure the game will look splendid. But would be dumb if this team focuses on the museum box 360 and the old PS3.