105 replies to this topic

[idolische]

The main issue in balancing mechs is that too many mechs share too much. Hit points, weapons, mobility. Nerf one mech and you will hurt another one. Reaper is the sign that people in Adhesive understand the situation. A-class with SS weapons and ability would be OP, so it didn't get those.

Edited by idolische, January 30 2013 - 08:11 AM.

[TwiceDead]

Gree, on January 30 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

Everytime I get downed by a scout I make sure to pick up my SS and give him a fuzzy bunny powershot in that fracking tank in his head so he learn the lesson of never appearing with that piece of scrap metal in my front again. I'm just saying.

That's the moments when I say "Okay, i've had enough. You're gonna die." *Switches to SS*
I really don't like pulling out my SS in pubs, scares away the new players... Although I do love SS.

[Leaders]

I've been playing Reaper mostly and my thoughts have pretty much been this:

"Oh a C-Class." *Dodge, Cover, Range and it dies*

"Oh look a B-Class." *Gain Positioning and Destroy*

"Oh a Scout." *Die instantly*

[defekt]

Hawken is A-shaped; it’s that simple.  If mobility is King then burst damage is Queen.  The As are the most nimble, with the fastest dodge cooldown, and they have the smallest hitbox (the effect of which amplifies the impact of network jitter[1] on precision weapons).  They also have complimentary special abilities which the Cs cannot currently claim to have.  

My personal opinion is that the A-class mechs are Hawken’s equivalent of ‘easy mode’.  I don’t say that to in any way belittle players who are good with the As, but there is a reason why the As dominate Hawken and it’s not serendipity.  Doing well in an A-class is easy when you know what you’re doing; doing well in a C-class, or any of the available B-classes, takes palpable effort, perseverance and no small amount of hair loss.  Point being, the effort required to be good in an A-class (with the possible exception of the Infiltrator[2]) is significantly less than the amount of effort required for any of the other classes, ergo, ‘easy mode’.

Part of the problem is the TOW, IMO; it’s the best weapon in the game, by damage and burst size, and it’s very easy to use and pretty simple to master.  (Once again, there is a reason why all of the ‘best’ mechs are packing TOWs and, once again, that’s not merely serendipity.)  All other Secondary weapons require a much higher level of skilled input in order to equal, much less surpass, the effectiveness of the TOW.  (And at least one, the Hellfire, will always be inferior.)  Burst damage is Queen.

Another part of the problem is that the Mobility vs Armour equation only seems to work, broadly speaking, for T/DM.  As soon as you include objectives in a game mode having a high mobility immediately bestows a far higher XP earning potential than anything slower than you by virtue of being able to react much more fluidly.  Mobility is King.

The root cause of the problem, IMHO, is not having class-restricted weaponry.

The devs have put the most bursty primary and the most effective secondary weapon on the most agile class in the game.  Of course such a thing is going to utterly dominate in capable hands; honestly, how could it not.  Mobility is King and burst damage is Queen.  Checkmate.

I’m going to don my fatalist hat here: I’d say Hawken is too far along its development track to do much about this, and I’d say the question we have to ask ourselves now is can we accept the simple fact that the As will probably always be the game’s ‘easy mode’ and just get on with playing the game anyway_  You know what, and as much as I dislike having such obviously and demonstrably stronger choices being available in a game, I think I can accept that and get on with it.  I always play games on their hardest difficulty anyway.

[1] All mechs jitter to some degree due to network latency but with the C’s, and to a lesser degree the Bs, the distance of those jitters remains broadly within the boundary of their own hitbox size, i.e., a C-class will very rarely jitter so far that its hitbox has completely left your aimpoint, unlike the As.  
[2] The Infiltrator is not armed with the TOW.  Once again, this is not merely serendipity.

[Juodvarnis]

defekt, on January 30 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

Doing well in an A-class is easy when you know what you’re doing; doing well in a C-class, or any of the available B-classes, takes palpable effort, perseverance and no small amount of hair loss.

Totally agree with this, especially the hair loss part,
JUST LOOK AT ME, I'M A MONSTER

[dEd101]

Owngasm, on January 30 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

Scout has same health bar as other A-Class and doesn't need to close any gaps if its a HEAT/TOW variant. Honestly, scout is medium risk, high reward. Infiltrators nades are much easier to dodge then TOW at mid range, and thus, infils will generally need to get closer, just like a scout (Flak scout, that is). Once close up, lets say you get your kill but gotta get away. Camo is useful but Refuel is gonna crush it.

That said though, Infiltrators are much better equipped to fight snipers since they can sneak up on them waaaay easier. So, I think it comes down to balancing these other counter-mechs  to make them more favorable and fun to play. Also, Reapers seem to do fairly well against scouts, and cause of that, is my next mech (or maybe SS, but it looks sooooo dumb).

Can't speak for heat+tow. I've got high ping so I can't hit anything with the heat besides charging it and shooting the ground.

If you don't like the flak + tow combo would you be happy with a flak+grenade_ I swear if they ever release that combo I will drop my scout in an instant. Love the grenade launcher.

[KaszaWspraju]

Quote

Part of the problem is the TOW

Tow form  alpha 2, a spiral flight path plus lower speed_

Edited by KaszaWspraju, January 30 2013 - 09:48 AM.

[Gree]

TwiceDead, on January 30 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Gree, on January 30 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

Everytime I get downed by a scout I make sure to pick up my SS and give him a fuzzy bunny powershot in that fracking tank in his head so he learn the lesson of never appearing with that piece of scrap metal in my front again. I'm just saying.

That's the moments when I say "Okay, i've had enough. You're gonna die." *Switches to SS*
I really don't like pulling out my SS in pubs, scares away the new players... Although I do love SS.

Yeah. I play the reaper, infiltrator and rocketeer to have fun.
But when you see me with the SS...

Edited by Gree, January 30 2013 - 09:50 AM.

[defekt]

KaszaWspraju, on January 30 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

Quote

Part of the problem is the TOW

Tow form  alpha 2, a spiral flight path plus lower speed_

Possibly.  Personally, I liked the way that thing corkscrewed through the air; after a lot of practice you began to get a feel for the flight path and could sometimes hook it around objects.  Now that's what I call getting more out of a weapon through practice.

[Sylhiri]

KaszaWspraju, on January 30 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

Quote

Part of the problem is the TOW

Tow form  alpha 2, a spiral flight path plus lower speed_

Yes, please.

I asked Scapes why they removed it but he didn't know so he was going to look into it.

Since it spirals you can't hug the corner and expect it not to ram into the wall (depending on the wall).

Edited by Sylhiri, January 30 2013 - 10:20 AM.

[Zeshi]

Scout is a tad OP, only because the TOW is tad OP (it outclasses the GL in basically every way, more damage, faster flight, shorter flight, easier to fire, longer range)

[tman7919]

I say the scout is overpowered but I love it so much! Such an extremely awesome mech that I don't do bad on all the time.

[The_Eldritch_Abomination]

Juodvarnis, on January 30 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

SunshineSloth, on January 30 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

I don't know about everyone else but I do consider the scout to be the strongest mech in the game right now. High DPS, Splash, mobility and tiny tiny hit box make it formidable.

Well said!
At the moment there's only two things i'm scared of in the game: Heat Infiltrators and Scouts, AND THEY'RE EVERYWHERE

Well, as long as they're on their own, Cupcake and myself are not...

Edited by The_Eldritch_Abomination, January 30 2013 - 04:15 PM.

[KaszaWspraju]

Zeshi, on January 30 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

Scout is a tad OP, only because the TOW is tad OP (it outclasses the GL in basically every way, more damage, faster flight, shorter flight, easier to fire, longer range)

Something in it.

[Dreizehn]

I'll just add that Detonators are quite effective against Scouts. They think they can dodge everything, so they skate that TOW and then surprise blam - at Flak range the slow projectile speed don't matter much. Also the splash is huge.

Anyway Scouts might be pretty ballin' in most 1v1 situations, but I find that they don't perform too well in a team vs team situation. Any oddball with an AR or any mid ranged weapon will pepper the fuzzy bunny out of any Scout they see due to their infamy. And you can only dodge automatic fire from so many sources at once.

Scout Jumpers still remain hilarious to fight(though any A-class jumper is hilarious to fight).

[dEd101]

So general consensus is the tow is OP and as a result scout is OP_ What happens to other mechs when you nerf tow_

[DOS4GW]

I played the scout almost exclusively in CB, and it was, without a doubt, the most OP little bugger on the battlefield. OB scout feels a tad less potent for me, except for one huge change.

Item regens. An A class mech used to have one chance to drop a one-two grenade/tow punch per life. Now it's once every minute. Not really a great idea, I feel, for a hit-and-run class to be able to hit that hard that often. This may be a bit too extreme, but if I were to make changes to class A's I would remove offensive items for them completely. Not only would it give the other classes a fighting chance, it would make sense logically; smaller mech = less stuff.

Also, for heaven's sake, take that flak cannon away from the scouts before they hurt themselves. They will be just fine with the mini-flak. The most mobile mech on the battlefield does not need to be able to output that much damage without the smallest pause in their side-dashing.

Slide flak tow slide flak slide flak tow slide flak slide flak tow slide flak slide flak tow slide flak slide flak tow slide flak slide flak tow slide flak slide flak tow slide flak slide flak tow slide flak slide flak tow slide flak slide flak tow slide flak slide flak tow slide flak slide flak tow slide flak slide flak tow slide flak slide flak tow slide flak slide..,.,.,..

Edited by DOS4GW, January 31 2013 - 02:02 AM.

[Dreizehn]

That used to be the domain of the Brawler. I definitely don't feel like the close ranged powerhouse I used to be back in the earlier CBs.

[Thermite]

My problem with the scout is with ALL 'A' class mechs

There does not seem to be a fair balance between 'A' class mobility and 'C' class armor

Game is still in beta so I will not stress over it.

Edited by Thermite, January 31 2013 - 02:07 AM.

[Coldbound]

defekt, on January 30 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

The root cause of the problem, IMHO, is not having class-restricted weaponry.

The more I think of this, the more it makes sense. Have the devs said anything about this_ Why not class restrict weps_ They used to be, right_ Why the change_
Class restricted weapons would propably change the game in a better direction