259 replies to this topic

[ReachH]

maschas, on March 07 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

I retract what I said. I played Xacius a few hours ago, and his EOC raider killed me so fast I didn't even really have time to react.

This is why I skim over most posts and only bother to read proven posters.

[z121231211]

ApoC_101, on March 06 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

it was pretty accurate, and clearly stated for the rest of the readers who couldn't handle the math/data you guys provided.

Wait, people can't handle addition with 3 digit numbers_ No wonder the Hawken devs like to hide the numbers.

Xacius, on March 07 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

I provided detailed information from extensive gameplay experience.

The Raider has been out for barely 2 days. No one has any right to say they've had extensive experience with it.

[Nept]

I've had little time to play the game recently, much less play the forums; I did, however, manage an hour or two in the raider tonight.

I think it's interesting.  It's especially interesting because its boost ability shakes up the corner camping game.  Since raiders are able to (occasionally) shoot while boosting forward, aggressive rushes become viable.  I think that's a good thing.

Now, I've nowhere near enough hours to attain the EOC, but I can imagine the combination being slightly ridiculous.  I think the current range limit on the corsair's fair, although it doesn't generate near enough heat for its power and refire rate.  I also found myself switching between nade/mirv mode quite frequently.

With respect to balancing, our best bet is to let things settle.  People always fuzzy bunny, moan, and embellish after content updates, and it'll be a couple weeks before players adapt to the changes.  The latter point's especially important in a game where corner camping's been bread and butter for months.

[AsianJoyKiller]

z121231211, on March 07 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:

Xacius, on March 07 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

I provided detailed information from extensive gameplay experience.

The Raider has been out for barely 2 days. No one has any right to say they've had extensive experience with it.

Not to mention, with a level 17 Raider (no EXP booster), I'm not exactly inexperienced myself... Assuming that I'm going PURELY off of numbers is a silly assumption to make.

[BlackCephie]

Beemann, on March 05 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

BlackCephie, on March 05 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

TL:DR- they gave the raider great chasing ability, but in a game where fleeing will often get you killed.

FYP

BlackCephie, on March 05 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

First of all, who says you are chasing someone who is sticking to a straight path_

The mechanics of boosting_ You're forced into straight or near straight lines. Anything else means the Raider doesn't have to use its abilty

BlackCephie, on March 05 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

Who says you landed 450 total burst initially_ And if so, and they bolt, and you chase now you have to envision chasing someone down with close range weaponry OR the eoc.

The fact that you're fleeing states that either you are damaged, or you're going to get damaged

BlackCephie, on March 05 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

using EOC_ Cool. Now you are chasing a moving target that may be intelligent enough to not get shot in the back with a full chain. Shoot them in front_ Good idea, of course they saw where the pucks went so a sode dodge to reroute still nets you little to no damage.

This shows a lack of understanding concerning the non-existence of ESP, the EOC's current mechanics, and how easy it is to catch up and shoot at a target moving slowly on a relative level

You miss my meaning. They can throw your tracking off with a simple side dash while boosting, causing you to miss crucial damage in pursuit. This is what I mean by not boosting in a straight line. Your opponent doesn't have to be a fuzzy bunny that decides to constantly boost in the same direction without throwing in any kind of evasion.


OR the fact that you are fleeing could mean that you are setting a trap for the Raider that says "Herpderp im going to chase you because I can."

I understand full and well how the current EOC works, and how fast you can catch up to a fleeing scout. You are missing the point completely. Its your speed vs. their sustainability. If the scout can evade whilst fleeing, and your tracking is properly thrown off, you WILL end up fuzzy bunny yourself over by assuming that the run-and-gun mechanic is really THAT powerful.

I would say that chasing fleeing opponents with blitz is the WORST use of this mechanic. We have been dealing with A classes getting away forever now, and many of us have gotten very proficient at hunting them down without ever having the ability to run and gun them. Why start now, when I could use that ability to guarantee my escape instead_ Or use is to ambush opponents who are harassing a teammate, possibly netting you more than one kill, as opposed to chasing the ONE damaged A class that you could have easily killed through other means, just like weve BEEN having to do.

You are putting so much stake into this shoot-while-boosting mechanic that its laughable, as it relates to the SCOUTS ability, no less. Please, Beeman. Go chase scouts every opportunity you can with this ability. Such economic use!

Edited by BlackCephie, March 07 2013 - 07:42 AM.

[Cpt_Kill_Jack]

ReachH, on March 07 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

MOVING ON.

RentAKnight, on March 06 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

heat scout is still top tier.  it won't be going away.

raider ability requires fuel to get full use out of it... dependency on fuel.

I'd like to add that while the HEAT Scout is certainly still very competitive, the Raider just brings a lot  too much to the table. Especially in team game modes where there is a bit of stagnation to to the difficulty of assaulting the AA/camped out Silo 2s.

The in vogue objective capping play was previously to use Class Cs as leverage because of their health pool, now I can see Raiders dominating that role. The fact is that its damage potential is just ridiculous, added to the utility of the EOC, the reflack being able to ricochet (all of which when combined with the HEAT tweak, brings them more on-par), and none of the drawbacks of Hellfire tier, this mech comes in at the highest tier. That's even before you consider the Blitz ability... which has a lot more implications that just being able to shoot while moving.

I'm not sure whether the ability has a place, or is a breath of fresh air or what. It seems to me that the big problem right now is that the ability both grants mobility and enhances combat directly. I'll have to spend more time with the mech, and currently I'm fresh outta free time for the near future.

Well played, Sentium engineers. You're move Prosk.

[If I had to take a position right now, I would say damage reduction on the mirv to 190, ability needs reworking, not sure the extent yet]

I was going to say and have told the devs that the MIRV should probably be dropped to about 200 as in drop 40 damage off the weapon. And a dev acknowledged the 240 damage by stating that its hard to hit for 240 damage. But 240 itself is just to high and puts it out of line with the other secondaries. The Grenade Rocket is just unreliable for damage.

The T32 Bolt and the EOC dont seem to produce enough heat for the Raider. It does not overheat near enough with those 2 weapons. The Reflak on the other hand might be good for a slight heat reduction. And I do mean slight. This being said its only day 3 of the Raider patch and we need to see things evolve a bit more from most of the player and not just us at the top.

EDIT: The corsair also needs to generate more heat.

Edited by Cpt_Kill_Jack, March 07 2013 - 07:58 AM.

[RentAKnight]

Cpt_Kill_Jack, on March 07 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

And a dev acknowledged the 240 damage by stating that its hard to hit for 240 damage. But 240 itself is just to high and puts it out of line with the other secondaries.

YES at least the devs understand their own game.  I don't know about the rest of you, but I miss shots.  It's not like you hit for 240 every time during combat (posts in this thread read like we are using a combat simulator to determine balance).  This weapon has a refreshing risk/reward.  IMO the risk could be higher.  Add more heat, up the spread, bring the max range in to 50.  It should still hit for 240 at face hug range.

I played about 3 hours of DM last night with 1800+ players half of which were running raiders.  I did not once get killed and say "wow radier is OP."  Pilots still have to aim their 240 damage cannon (note the firing delay and projectile speed) and when it misses it misses HARD.  The MIRV is not forgiving like the remote detting TOW or GL.

The only times I was beaten badly by a raider was when I was caught by surprise and took a full MIRV before I was ready to engage.  Otherwise I was effectively able to maneuver around and make the raiders miss their burst shots.

EOC is still unreliable. If a mech maneuvers around someone using the EOC at close range they are going to miss.

I watched a couple players switch out of their raiders to scouts and brawlers in what seemed like a move to the more effective mech.  It may have been more the learning curve of a new mech vs the familiarity of an old one.  This was DM so take my experiences with a grain of salt.

I want to see players run raider in an organized game and give opinions on it's perceived effectiveness in lieu of running a different mech.

Edited by RentAKnight, March 07 2013 - 09:24 AM.

[wen87n]

does anyone feels like the TOW has been nerf too far_ airburst blast radius is now next to useless. which is direct hit or nothing.

Edited by wen87n, March 07 2013 - 08:53 AM.

[StutterStep]

The highest rated server I played last night was lower end of 1700.  I played Infiltrator/Berserker all night, and lean towards RaK's feelings.  Though, that's lower bracket than you guys are playing, I didn't feel like f*$%, I need to avoid Raiders.  I was pretty comfortable in my normal playstyle.  Not lying though, when they hit you, you definitely feel it.

[StutterStep]

wen87n, on March 07 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

does anyone feels like the TOW has been nerf too far_ airburst blast radius is now next to useless. which is direct hit or nothing.

I feel like it's perfect.

[Cpt_Kill_Jack]

RentAKnight, on March 07 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

Cpt_Kill_Jack, on March 07 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

And a dev acknowledged the 240 damage by stating that its hard to hit for 240 damage. But 240 itself is just to high and puts it out of line with the other secondaries.

YES at least the devs understand their own game.  I don't know about the rest of you, but I miss shots.  It's not like you hit for 240 every time during combat (posts in this thread read like we are using a combat simulator to determine balance).  This weapon has a refreshing risk/reward.  IMO the risk could be higher.  Add more heat, up the spread, bring the max range in to 50.  It should still hit for 240 at face hug range.

I played about 3 hours of DM last night with 1800+ players half of which were running raiders.  I did not once get killed and say "wow radier is OP."  Pilots still have to aim their 240 damage cannon (note the firing delay and projectile speed) and when it misses it misses HARD.  The MIRV is not forgiving like the remote detting TOW or GL.

I want to see players run raider in an organized game and give opinions on it's perceived effectiveness in liu of running a different mech.

I agree though I might say range should be about 70 to 75 as it is still rocket explosives but very small ones. And yes when the Corsair MIRV misses it misses hard.

Edited by Cpt_Kill_Jack, March 07 2013 - 09:20 AM.

[Beemann]

BlackCephie, on March 07 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

You miss my meaning. They can throw your tracking off with a simple side dash while boosting, causing you to miss crucial damage in pursuit. This is what I mean by not boosting in a straight line. Your opponent doesn't have to be a fuzzy bunny that decides to constantly boost in the same direction without throwing in any kind of evasion.

If you boost to the side, you've basically given up on fleeing... unless you decide to boost straight forward all over again. Either way, you're taking time out of said fleeing against an opponent that can travel MUCH faster than you

BlackCephie, on March 07 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

OR the fact that you are fleeing could mean that you are setting a trap for the Raider that says "Herpderp im going to chase you because I can."

Because this is totally a valid strat in competitive play and people will A: not be able to hit you before you run into a new area given projectile speeds and mech travel times and B: totally chase you blind into a new area and somehow not be able to escape with (once again) the fastest speed in the game

BlackCephie, on March 07 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

I understand full and well how the current EOC works, and how fast you can catch up to a fleeing scout. You are missing the point completely. Its your speed vs. their sustainability. If the scout can evade whilst fleeing, and your tracking is properly thrown off, you WILL end up fuzzy bunny yourself over by assuming that the run-and-gun mechanic is really THAT powerful.

Except you really don't seem to. If a single dodge was all you needed to throw off aim, duels would be MUCH longer
They aren't, so clearly dodges aren't that effective
And you seem to forget that A: run-and-gun is one of two mechanics that the raider ability has and B: it's in the same slot as Ballistic Barrage, Cloak and Turret Mode
If every ability was a complete gamechanger that ignored core mechanics, then it would be balanced (granted, I'd like the game far less if abilities worked in that manner)
But they aren't

BlackCephie, on March 07 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

I would say that chasing fleeing opponents with blitz is the WORST use of this mechanic. We have been dealing with A classes getting away forever now, and many of us have gotten very proficient at hunting them down without ever having the ability to run and gun them. Why start now, when I could use that ability to guarantee my escape instead_ Or use is to ambush opponents who are harassing a teammate, possibly netting you more than one kill, as opposed to chasing the ONE damaged A class that you could have easily killed through other means, just like weve BEEN having to do.

The fact is that you can use it for ALL of those, and it works better for all of them than any previous method. Additionally, A mechs get away all the time when fighting against heavier mechs. Given the slower speed (particularly in C mechs) you're not likely to catch a scout who is point running or an A mech who turns the corner and keeps boosting. With the fastest boost and walk speed in the game, it's not hard to boost around that one corner, decide if it's safe or not, and then give chase. If you're dealing with a comp match, you can circle around and be in position to take out fleeing targets and then move in on other targets in no time at all
In fact, you can kill them while moving into position while going sanic fast

BlackCephie, on March 07 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

You are putting so much stake into this shoot-while-boosting mechanic that its laughable, as it relates to the SCOUTS ability, no less. Please, Beeman. Go chase scouts every opportunity you can with this ability. Such economic use!

I'm sorry, I couldnt help but read that as "stop talking about the thing that I'm arguing with you about"
If you hadn't continued to argue a particular aspect of the ability, I wouldn't have kept talking about that particular aspect

@Rentaknight
I dunno about you, or the devs, but I don't consider many players to be at a competitive level. It worries me when, at any point in time, balance is based on feedback from pub players, internal testers, or anyone else who is probably not going to be playing the game at the highest level, then that high level play is one of the stated goals.

And that's not even me trying to offend the internal testers. Not everyone I worked with when I did QA was particularly good a the game, and most admitted it. I myself was absolutely outdone by not only other members of the dev team in certain instances, but our records basically got shattered when the game in question got released. Our sample size for testers, and our requirements for testers, were far too different from the sample size and requirements for a comp community, or even for a "hardcore" community. I wouldn't expect id's internal team to get 80-100% rails consistently, or hit 40-50% or more of their mg/lg shots.

Essentially, I understand that ADH knows this game isn't competitive, but that doesn't really give them carte blanche when it comes to comp balance, and it concerns me when the devs respond to our concerns with a weapon when playing against players who can actually use it well, and the response is basically "well it's hard to use"

[Sylhiri]

When the Devs look at the EOC Raider and try to balance it by adding back the heat gen the EOC previously had, I will kick them in the nuts. A 210 primary has no purpose on a machine that has a 240 secondary.

[curlupanddie]

At the very least, Raiders need more heat generation per shot, example:  I watched one chase some one down, full volley them to death from at least 75% (chase and slay ability), then I ran up to him in my zerk, and overheated way before he did_ I wasn't particularly accurate, neither was he, but in other mechs unless I nail every shot and a detonator, I'm not getting two kills back to back w/o overheating.

[flimsy]

Sylhiri, on March 07 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

When the Devs look at the EOC Raider and try to balance it by adding back the heat gen the EOC previously had, I will kick them in the nuts. A 210 primary has no purpose on a machine that has a 240 secondary.

I really hope the devs focus on the heat generation, damage and range of the mirv rather than touching the EOC, because the EOC is in a beautiful place on the infiltrator right now.

[Cyclonus]

After this patch the game has become unplayable for me because of the lack of fps after a minute in a match.

[Beemann]

maschas, on March 07 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Sylhiri, on March 07 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

When the Devs look at the EOC Raider and try to balance it by adding back the heat gen the EOC previously had, I will kick them in the nuts. A 210 primary has no purpose on a machine that has a 240 secondary.

I really hope the devs focus on the heat generation, damage and range of the mirv rather than touching the EOC, because the EOC is in a beautiful place on the infiltrator right now.

360 burst on direct hits and 330 on indirect EOC shots and a direct GL is a good spot_

[BlackCephie]

Beemann, on March 07 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

BlackCephie, on March 07 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

You miss my meaning. They can throw your tracking off with a simple side dash while boosting, causing you to miss crucial damage in pursuit. This is what I mean by not boosting in a straight line. Your opponent doesn't have to be a fuzzy bunny that decides to constantly boost in the same direction without throwing in any kind of evasion.

If you boost to the side, you've basically given up on fleeing... unless you decide to boost straight forward all over again. Either way, you're taking time out of said fleeing against an opponent that can travel MUCH faster than you

BlackCephie, on March 07 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

OR the fact that you are fleeing could mean that you are setting a trap for the Raider that says "Herpderp im going to chase you because I can."

Because this is totally a valid strat in competitive play and people will A: not be able to hit you before you run into a new area given projectile speeds and mech travel times and B: totally chase you blind into a new area and somehow not be able to escape with (once again) the fastest speed in the game

BlackCephie, on March 07 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

I understand full and well how the current EOC works, and how fast you can catch up to a fleeing scout. You are missing the point completely. Its your speed vs. their sustainability. If the scout can evade whilst fleeing, and your tracking is properly thrown off, you WILL end up fuzzy bunny yourself over by assuming that the run-and-gun mechanic is really THAT powerful.

Except you really don't seem to. If a single dodge was all you needed to throw off aim, duels would be MUCH longer
They aren't, so clearly dodges aren't that effective
And you seem to forget that A: run-and-gun is one of two mechanics that the raider ability has and B: it's in the same slot as Ballistic Barrage, Cloak and Turret Mode
If every ability was a complete gamechanger that ignored core mechanics, then it would be balanced (granted, I'd like the game far less if abilities worked in that manner)
But they aren't

BlackCephie, on March 07 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

I would say that chasing fleeing opponents with blitz is the WORST use of this mechanic. We have been dealing with A classes getting away forever now, and many of us have gotten very proficient at hunting them down without ever having the ability to run and gun them. Why start now, when I could use that ability to guarantee my escape instead_ Or use is to ambush opponents who are harassing a teammate, possibly netting you more than one kill, as opposed to chasing the ONE damaged A class that you could have easily killed through other means, just like weve BEEN having to do.

The fact is that you can use it for ALL of those, and it works better for all of them than any previous method. Additionally, A mechs get away all the time when fighting against heavier mechs. Given the slower speed (particularly in C mechs) you're not likely to catch a scout who is point running or an A mech who turns the corner and keeps boosting. With the fastest boost and walk speed in the game, it's not hard to boost around that one corner, decide if it's safe or not, and then give chase. If you're dealing with a comp match, you can circle around and be in position to take out fleeing targets and then move in on other targets in no time at all
In fact, you can kill them while moving into position while going sanic fast

BlackCephie, on March 07 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

You are putting so much stake into this shoot-while-boosting mechanic that its laughable, as it relates to the SCOUTS ability, no less. Please, Beeman. Go chase scouts every opportunity you can with this ability. Such economic use!

I'm sorry, I couldnt help but read that as "stop talking about the thing that I'm arguing with you about"
If you hadn't continued to argue a particular aspect of the ability, I wouldn't have kept talking about that particular aspect

@Rentaknight
I dunno about you, or the devs, but I don't consider many players to be at a competitive level. It worries me when, at any point in time, balance is based on feedback from pub players, internal testers, or anyone else who is probably not going to be playing the game at the highest level, then that high level play is one of the stated goals.

And that's not even me trying to offend the internal testers. Not everyone I worked with when I did QA was particularly good a the game, and most admitted it. I myself was absolutely outdone by not only other members of the dev team in certain instances, but our records basically got shattered when the game in question got released. Our sample size for testers, and our requirements for testers, were far too different from the sample size and requirements for a comp community, or even for a "hardcore" community. I wouldn't expect id's internal team to get 80-100% rails consistently, or hit 40-50% or more of their mg/lg shots.

Essentially, I understand that ADH knows this game isn't competitive, but that doesn't really give them carte blanche when it comes to comp balance, and it concerns me when the devs respond to our concerns with a weapon when playing against players who can actually use it well, and the response is basically "well it's hard to use"

That was not my meaning at ALL actually. The point orignially was that imo the run and gun aspect of the raiders ability does not flat out trump the scouts fuel recharge. Simple as that. I'm saying that this is HIGHLY situational, and in most cases a raider pilot would benefit far greater by utilizing the ability overall in another way, not to chase down a singular target that could easily be killed WITHOUT using the ability at all, especially in high level play. I see more raiders use the ability to outmaneuver in face to face encounters and to escape more than anything.

Furthermore, the MIRV is REALLY easy to miss with. According to your logic, the run and gun aspect is amplified by the machine's already formidable burst, but in high level play wouldn't you think that most pilots will be aware of this_ I would dodge mid chase JUST to dodge the inevitable MIRV in the back. Or I would not run at all. How about I just kite you with eoc and nades and forget about your silly run and gun feature, even after losing half my HP.

TLDR: Run and gun will be great for mowing down hapless noobs. You were saying that the ability to run and gun on the raider is too much. I'm saying I disagree with that assessment, as that particular aspect of the ability is trivial given other methods along with the other strengths of the mech. That said, they could have left the run and gun part out, and it wouldn't matter in the least as far as I'm concerned. Try using the ability simply to chase scouts around consistently against good players over teh course of the next couple of days, and let's see how that works out for you.

Edited by BlackCephie, March 07 2013 - 12:08 PM.

[Beemann]

BlackCephie, on March 07 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

That was not my meaning at ALL actually. The point orignially was that imo the run and gun aspect of the raiders ability does not flat out trump the scouts fuel recharge. Simple as that. I'm saying that this is HIGHLY situational, and in most cases a raider pilot would benefit far greater by utilizing the ability overall in another way, not to chase down a singular target that could easily be killed WITHOUT using the ability at all, especially in high level play. I see more raiders use the ability to outmaneuver in face to face encounters and to escape more than anything.

Except my argument was never that the run and gun aspect itself was better than another whole ability, but rather that the combination of high speed and shooting while travelling vastly overshadows any skill that isn't Power Shot
Additionally, situational implies that there's a small number of situations in which something is useful
Flanking, Chasing and Fleeing cover most engagements, and thus are not particularly situational

BlackCephie, on March 07 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

Furthermore, the MIRV is REALLY easy to miss with. According to your logic, the run and gun aspect is amplified by the machine's already formidable burst, but in high level play wouldn't you think that most pilots will be aware of this_ I would dodge mid chase JUST to dodge the inevitable MIRV in the back. Or I would not run at all. How about I just kite you with eoc and nades and forget about your silly run and gun feature, even after losing half my HP.

It's about as easy to miss with as any other weapon. In high level play pilots would want the max output, so you'd just have raider vs raider
Why settle for something that does less damage and cant reach a given point as fast from spawn_
Additionally, you still cant kite someone who goes faster than you

BlackCephie, on March 07 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

TLDR: Run and gun will be great for mowing down hapless noobs. Try that consistently against good players over teh course of the next couple of days, and let's see how that works out for you.

tl;dr balance is fighting newbie raiders who cant aim