259 replies to this topic

[StutterStep]

RentAKnight, on March 06 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

StutterStep, on March 06 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

RentAKnight, on March 06 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

heat scout is still top tier.  it won't be going away.

Because of stun lock, or aoe still okay_  Just curious, since I haven't been able to play post patch yet.

Not because of stun lock but because of having duel explosive projectiles.  The only combination that can dish out consistent damage without ever giving line of sight.  This style will always be effective unless explosions are severely nerfed into the ground.

Ahh, I was hoping the nerf to HEAT blast radius and more aggressive aoe damage feathering would help in that area.  It's one of the few things that bothered me a lot, when getting big damage with little, to no, LoS.

[RentAKnight]

TheChaffeemancer, on March 06 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

Cpt_Kill_Jack, on March 06 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

Today or should I say this morning many more people are figuring out how to deal with the Raider. Its becoming balanced by the people playing adapting to the changed environment. Yes it does massive amounts a damage but its nullified by enemy movement and team play.

Damage output is bloody cray cray. It is cray cray to the max. You want to know how cray-cray_

This is initial burst with no internals/optimizations

With bolt, mirv, and detonator

120+240+175

535

Congrats, you are now Insta-gibbing A-Classes, on a mech with an ability that lets them catch A Classes.

Now if said mech reaches 25 and get an EOC (assuming the full burst hits, of course)

210+240+175

625

Congrats, now not only are you insta-gibbing A's, on your next shot you are killing B's and a C is at 225 HP.

Now add on top of this an ability that goes faster then anything in the game and can shoot while doing so. If you can't see why this is OP, Kiwi can't help you.


There is no "adapting" to insta-gibs.

Now run the same numbers with charged EOC + GL + Det

Now run the same numbers with charged EOC + hellfires + det

Now run the same numbers with charged Heat + TOW + det

your argument falls apart. especially when you consider the specific situations in which each mech can deliver it's full burst.  Shame on the guy who lets the raider face hug him.

Both of the raider weapons are hit scan and have huge spread (EOC is hard to aim, is unreliable).  Raider misses 1 of either shots and it's DPS drops out the window.  Explosive projectiles will still hit when missed because of large explosion radii and because of remote detonation.

Edited by RentAKnight, March 06 2013 - 09:18 AM.

[N0stalgia]

I need to play the Raider more to get a full grasp, but my initial impressions is that it has several distinct advantages. For one thing, it starts with three weapons. One is a fabulous close range burst - like a flak cannon with the power of a TOW missile. One is a mid - long range lob grenade with the power of a TOW missile. It's starter primary is a "finish him off" type weapon - it's weak but delivers constant light damage at close range and can deliver a finishing blow at medium range. Add this to the ability it has and the mech just felt OP.

Maybe I was playing scrubs, but the light mechs were simply shredded. They had no chance. I was even missing several times with my secondary. I think the only weapon that managed to get a killing blow on me were hellfires from bruisers and rocketeers. Go figure.

I feel like if I had as much practice with the Raider as I do my Scout (450K+ XP), I'd get a flawless K/D ratio. Again, this is only a projection and just my initial impression. And my initial impression is still WOW.

[TheChaffeemancer]

RentAKnight, on March 06 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

TheChaffeemancer, on March 06 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

Cpt_Kill_Jack, on March 06 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

Today or should I say this morning many more people are figuring out how to deal with the Raider. Its becoming balanced by the people playing adapting to the changed environment. Yes it does massive amounts a damage but its nullified by enemy movement and team play.

Damage output is bloody cray cray. It is cray cray to the max. You want to know how cray-cray_

This is initial burst with no internals/optimizations

With bolt, mirv, and detonator

120+240+175

535

Congrats, you are now Insta-gibbing A-Classes, on a mech with an ability that lets them catch A Classes.

Now if said mech reaches 25 and get an EOC (assuming the full burst hits, of course)

210+240+175

625

Congrats, now not only are you insta-gibbing A's, on your next shot you are killing B's and a C is at 225 HP.

Now add on top of this an ability that goes faster then anything in the game and can shoot while doing so. If you can't see why this is OP, Kiwi can't help you.


There is no "adapting" to insta-gibs.

Now run the same numbers with charged EOC + GL + Det

Now run the same numbers with charged EOC + hellfires + det

Now run the same numbers with charged Heat + TOW + det

your argument falls apart. especially when you consider the specific situations in which each mech can deliver it's full burst.  Shame on the guy who lets the raider face hug him.

EOC + GL + Det

210 + 150 + 175

535

EOC + Hellfire + Det

210 + 192 +175

579

Heat + Tow + Det

100 + 185 + 175

460

Kiwi would like to know how you propose to avoid getting close to a Raider when it can catch up to you whenever it wants, never mind the fact that it does not need to "face hug" to do that full 240. Kiwi would like to note that the burst from the Bolt beats most other weapons in inital damage (it's on par with the flak, but has tighter spread, though this will need testing) Though looking at this, Kiwi sees that EOC damage is cray-cray.

Edited by TheChaffeemancer, March 06 2013 - 09:26 AM.

[burns1124]

TheChaffeemancer, on March 06 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

*Snip* Math...
Kiwi would like to know how you propose to avoid getting close to a Raider when it can catch up to you whenever it wants, never mind the fact that it does not need to "face hug" to do that full 240. Kiwi would like to note that the burst from the Bolt beats most other weapons in inital damage (it's on par with the flak, but has tighter spread, though this will need testing)

Burns would like to know why people refer to themselves in the third person, it's silly and somewhat demeaning to people not accustomed to the royal plural, are you some kind of Prince_

There's this thing in the game called radar, it lets you know where the enemy is without actually seeing them.  There's also things called teammates, ENEMY SIGHTED, concentrated fire, and situational awareness (made easier by the radar pinging and enemy scoring hits on you) that would prevent and even fully negate any of those bursts, especially the detonator part, as it's slower than death.

It's a burst damage class by design, it even says so in the description.  If you get caught in that burst, shame on you for not using the tools the game gives you to avoid them.

[Cpt_Kill_Jack]

TheChaffeemancer, on March 06 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

Kiwi would like to know how you propose to avoid getting close to a Raider when it can catch up to you whenever it wants, never mind the fact that it does not need to "face hug" to do that full 240. Kiwi would like to note that the burst from the Bolt beats most other weapons in inital damage (it's on par with the flak, but has tighter spread, though this will need testing) Though looking at this, Kiwi sees that EOC damage is cray-cray.

Ok I just want to put one thing out. Through the people I have asked in the Skilled and competitive departments in the game It has been a unison of responce that they dont use the ability to give chase. Instead we use the ability to get away quickly or to close the gap fast between an objective. Personally I dont find the ability much use in combat bacause it makes the mech move extremely quickly including turning speed and makes it harder to aim and follow the redical. People evolve and so does the face of gameplay.

[RentAKnight]

TheChaffeemancer, on March 06 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

Kiwi would like to know how you propose to avoid getting close to a Raider when it can catch up to you whenever it wants, never mind the fact that it does not need to "face hug" to do that full 240. Kiwi would like to note that the burst from the Bolt beats most other weapons in inital damage (it's on par with the flak, but has tighter spread, though this will need testing) Though looking at this, Kiwi sees that EOC damage is cray-cray.

Are you "Kiwi"_  Why do you keep referring to yourself in 3rd person_  I'm American and while reading your use of Kiwi all I get is the feeling you are a condescending agitator.

RentAKnight thinks Kiwi is giving too much credence to numbers and needs to spend some more time playing Hawken.

[Hjalmtyr]

TheChaffeemancer, on March 06 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

Kiwi would like to know how you propose to avoid getting close to a Raider when it can catch up to you whenever it wants, never mind the fact that it does not need to "face hug" to do that full 240. Kiwi would like to note that the burst from the Bolt beats most other weapons in inital damage (it's on par with the flak, but has tighter spread, though this will need testing) Though looking at this, Kiwi sees that EOC damage is cray-cray.

Are you being used as a human vessel for a sentient, psychic Kiwi who likes to use math to argue a point not prevalent in the actual game because of reality_

Basically, numbers fall over dead when people start playing. Sure, if everyone was a robot / Kiwi mind slug victim, everything might go as calculated and the outcome will always be the same, but people make mistakes, errors are made, other factors must be considered etc.

[nokari]

SilentJacket, on March 06 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

nokari, on March 06 2013 - 02:19 AM, said:

So, anyone at level 25 yet_ I'm curious to see how it gets. I'm up to 20 with about 6-8hrs more to go (sometime tomorrow I suppose)

nokari, on March 06 2013 - 02:19 AM, said:

So, anyone at level 25 yet_ I'm curious to see how it gets. I'm up to 20 with about 6-8hrs more to go (sometime tomorrow I suppose)

jesus, how are you doing that_

Double XP boost. I was playing mostly Siege matches and getting over 10k XP on average.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Hjalmtyr, on March 06 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

Basically, numbers fall over dead when people start playing. Sure, if everyone was a robot / Kiwi mind slug victim, everything might go as calculated and the outcome will always be the same, but people make mistakes, errors are made, other factors must be considered etc.

Yep.
Numbers sure don't mean anything once you start playing.
Which is why it would be totally okay to have a weapon that did 10,000 damage per shot and had a RoF of 200,000,000, because once we start actually playing, numbers fall over dead and none of it matters.

Seriously.

[flimsy]

At the highest levels of play, it comes down to the numbers.

[phed]

Once your player ranking goes up, you'd be surprised at how many robots are actually playing this game...  

And alpha strikes are a b**** to deal with in the wrong circumstances.  Aside from being caught with my pants down, I found the raider to be an interesting, challenging, though not over-powered opponent to my flak scout.  But hell, I'm just a small fish that can be eaten up by any mech in the right hands...

[ItsThatGuy]

My knee-jerk reaction is that the Raider should NOT be able to shoot while boosting with its ability. Or at least take away the speedboost part of the ability. Both seems like too much.

[Krellus]

I got my raider to level 4. Game last night was laggy, average ping for me between 240-320. I felt like the raider was fine. Doing well sometimes, other times not. Chased only one guy with the ability, and yeah, that was a fun mow down. But generally i would use the ability to run away, or just get somewhere fast. I found myself low on fuel more on this mech. Guns wise, I like the starter primary just fine ( I tend to dislike hold down to charge guns, gives me finger cramp after a while). So.. my 2 cents, raider seems fine and a welcome challenger to flak scouts. Having read this thread, I'm now a bit concerned about EOC, but have yet to see it in action. First impression - very happy with the new patch.

On hellfires - i felt like lock on was quicker, but dumb fire slightly slower_ Evened out to me. That was my impression anyway. Will play again this afternoon when ping should be better.

On last thing - gives us back Oceania server - i think there are ping issues combining us with Asia, arrghh!

Edited by Krellus, March 06 2013 - 01:56 PM.

[Xacius]

I leveled my Raider to 25 yesterday and now have the EOC. In the 5 matches I played before I went to bed... I just... Oh my god. Here's what I gathered from between 5-10 hours of gameplay time with the Raider:

I've leveled over 10 different mech classes to 25 over the past 4 months. The Raider was, by far, the easiest mech to dominate with and the most unfair, aside from maybe the heat scout/infiltrator up until yesterday's patch. The only difference is that the Raider generally requires direct line of site to the target to deal significant damage, but it's not that hard to get close to someone when your class ability gives you a boost that makes you the fastest mech in the game—by far—for over 6 seconds.

Instagib
With proper Accuracy, I can kill an A-class mech in the time it takes to charge a full round of EOC & an additional uncharged round of EOC. That's 3 seconds, and is almost as bad as the Sharpshooter's damage burst. Throw in a detonator or HE charge and it takes half as long. Here's the thing, though: the Raider is capable of doing this all the time, as the damage output isn't based on a damage increase ability.


Solution: Greatly raise the heat generation of the secondary weapon. Currently, I can zip around spitting out EOC mines and launching my secondary whenever it comes back up, and I'm using the special weapon loader, which supposedly generates 6% more heat while giving your special weapon a 10% cooldown reduction. I overheated maybe three times during my hour of EOC gameplay last night, and almost never when I was spam-firing—on a charged basis—the T-32 BOLT.  

In addition to increased heat generation, the range of the MIRV should be significantly reduced, or the spread should be greatly increased. As it stands, I can deal nearly full-damage to a C-class pilot who's outside of their viable FLAK range, and that just doesn't seem fair. The only time I used the Corsair-KLA Nade function, the device that's supposed to be more viable at range that the "close-range" MIRV, was when my target was at the other end of the map. The Nade function seems fine as is, mainly because it can't be manually detonated like the TOW/GL and thus requires proper accuracy.

Thoughts_

Edited by Xacius, March 06 2013 - 03:32 PM.

[RentAKnight]

Xacius, on March 06 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

Solution: Greatly raise the heat generation of the secondary weapon. Currently, I can zip around spitting out EOC mines and launching my secondary whenever it comes back up, and I'm using the special weapon loader, which supposedly generates 6% more heat while giving your special weapon a 10% cooldown reduction. I overheated maybe three times during my hour of EOC gameplay last night, and almost never when I was spam-firing—on a charged basis—the T-32 BOLT.  

In addition to increased heat generation, the range of the MIRV should be significantly reduced, or the spread should be greatly increased. As it stands, I can deal nearly full-damage to a C-class pilot who's outside of their viable FLAK range, and that just doesn't seem fair. The only time I used the Corsair-KLA Nade function, the device that's supposed to be more viable at range that the "close-range" MIRV, was when my target was at the other end of the map. The Nade function seems fine as is, mainly because it can't be manually detonated like the TOW/GL and thus requires proper accuracy.

Thoughts_

Excellent post xacius.  You touched on all of the major points and then provided good solutions.  When I was running around in the raider the one thing I noticed was that I never came close to overheating.  Making this weapon overheat after 2-3 shots would go a long way to balancing it.  A Pilot should have to choose between quickly delivering a final blow and overheating or dancing around a bit more to not overheat.

I also agree that the spread should be increased or bring in the max range to very close.  Your comparison to the standard flack is a good one however the mirv is a secondary so keep that in mind.

I wouldn't have a problem if the MIRVs max range was brought in REALLY CLOSE almost melee range.  This would make mid range (and far end of close range) raiders have to go to the GL version instead of the MIRV.  Pilots would have to constantly be switching between the two to benefit from the power of the MIRV.  Switching between the two at the right time would add some tactical strategy the gameplay.

I too found that I would hardly ever run around in the GL mode, even when you used it to shoot across the map doing accurate damage was unreliable.  You are better off boosting to get up close to use the MIRV.

Edited by RentAKnight, March 06 2013 - 03:49 PM.

[Xacius]

RentAKnight, on March 06 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

I also agree that the spread should be increased or bring in the max range to very close.  Your comparison to the standard flack is a good one however the mirv is a secondary so keep that in mind.

I wouldn't have a problem if the MIRVs max range was brought in REALLY CLOSE almost melee range.  This would make mid range (and far end of close range) raiders have to go to the GL version instead of the MIRV.  Pilots would have to constantly be switching between the two to benefit from the power of the MIRV.  Switching between the two at the right time would add some tactical strategy the gameplay.

I too found that I would hardly ever run around in the GL mode, even when you used it to shoot across the map doing accurate damage was unreliable.  You are better off boosting to get up close to use the MIRV.

Great followup; agreed. The player should be forced to switch between the raider's two secondaries in order to be optimally effective. In addition, the mech should fit its description. Currently, it's a medium-range mech almost as much as it is a close-ranged mech.

With regards to the Flak comparison to the MIRV... the raider already has two Flak variants in the form of primary weapons. The MIRV is almost overdoing it, but wouldn't be that bad if it had poor range and high spread.

[Cpt_Kill_Jack]

Xacius, on March 06 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

I leveled my Raider to 25 yesterday and now have the EOC. In the 5 matches I played before I went to bed... I just... Oh my god. Here's what I gathered from between 5-10 hours of gameplay time with the Raider:

I've leveled over 10 different mech classes to 25 over the past 4 months. The Raider was, by far, the easiest mech to dominate with and the most unfair, aside from maybe the heat scout/infiltrator up until yesterday's patch. The only difference is that the Raider generally requires direct line of site to the target to deal significant damage, but it's not that hard to get close to someone when your class ability gives you a boost that makes you the fastest mech in the game—by far—for over 6 seconds.

Instagib
With proper Accuracy, I can kill an A-class mech in the time it takes to charge a full round of EOC & an additional uncharged round of EOC. That's 3 seconds, and is almost as bad as the Sharpshooter's damage burst. Throw in a detonator or HE charge and it takes half as long. Here's the thing, though: the Raider is capable of doing this all the time, as the damage output isn't based on a damage increase ability.


Solution: Greatly raise the heat generation of the secondary weapon. Currently, I can zip around spitting out EOC mines and launching my secondary whenever it comes back up, and I'm using the special weapon loader, which supposedly generates 6% more heat while giving your special weapon a 10% cooldown reduction. I overheated maybe three times during my hour of EOC gameplay last night, and almost never when I was spam-firing—on a charged basis—the T-32 BOLT.  

In addition to increased heat generation, the range of the MIRV should be significantly reduced, or the spread should be greatly increased. As it stands, I can deal nearly full-damage to a C-class pilot who's outside of their viable FLAK range, and that just doesn't seem fair. The only time I used the Corsair-KLA Nade function, the device that's supposed to be more viable at range that the "close-range" MIRV, was when my target was at the other end of the map. The Nade function seems fine as is, mainly because it can't be manually detonated like the TOW/GL and thus requires proper accuracy.

Thoughts_

I will say that the damage of the Corsair MIRV may be too high at 240. Maybe drop it about 20 damage. But the range if reduced from the 90 its at should be nothing less than 75. IMHO I think that your not overheating with the EOC might be the EOC. I do over heat often with the Reflak. But somewhere in the upper end its heat generation is not enough to balance it. As for the Grenade mode on the Corsair, only time I use it is when I forget to switch. Would much prefer the MIRV mode to be the primary mode.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Asian, Kiwi and Beemann say things are OP, people go "OMG UR WRONG!"
Xacius says things are OP, people go "OMG SO RIGHT!"

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, March 06 2013 - 04:51 PM.

[_Caffeine_]

Sylhiri, on March 05 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

the floor+direct shot combo

Are you just talking about landing a direct hit at the same time they hit your mines on the ground or is there some secret abusive technique I haven't discovered_