259 replies to this topic

[phed]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 06 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Asian, Kiwi and Beemann say things are OP, people go "OMG UR WRONG!"
Xacius says things are OP, people go "OMG SO RIGHT!"

Perhaps you guys could get some argumentative writing advice from x....

[TheChaffeemancer]

phed, on March 06 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on March 06 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Asian, Kiwi and Beemann say things are OP, people go "OMG UR WRONG!"
Xacius says things are OP, people go "OMG SO RIGHT!"

Perhaps you guys could get some argumentative writing advice from x....

So what you're saying is we should not get any actual figures and just go with completely random observations and games for the basis of our argument_

[ApoC_101]

I don't think Xacius's argument for the Raider was random/BS, it was pretty accurate, and clearly stated for the rest of the readers who couldn't handle the math/data you guys provided. Either way the in depth, educated observations from both sides are all saying the same thing: Raider is intensely OP compared to previous "OP" mech configs, and will certainly be nerfed down to balance in the immediate future (the sooner the better).

Edited by ApoC_101, March 06 2013 - 05:49 PM.

[RentAKnight]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 06 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Asian, Kiwi and Beemann say things are OP, people go "OMG UR WRONG!"
Xacius says things are OP, people go "OMG SO RIGHT!"

Well I know this isn't in response to me because I had nothing to disagree about with Xacius's post.  

The oversimplification of the raider ability I had to stop and say something about.

Your point would be stronger if Xacius was saying the same "things" are OP.

Edited by RentAKnight, March 06 2013 - 06:01 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

phed, on March 06 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Perhaps you guys could get some argumentative writing advice from x...

These are all things we said before Xacius posted saying that the Raider was powerful due to it's ability to close distance and do heavy damage.

Beemann, on March 05 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

(240 damage rocket shotgun+EOC burst)

AsianJoyKiller, on March 05 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

It's normally the same speed at all Bs. But Blitz allows you to easily overtake an A.
Also that boost pretty much lasts for all your fuel.

TheChaffeemancer, on March 06 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

This baffles Kiwi greatly, especially since no one seems to have an issue with the fact that the Raider has a 240 damage rocket shotgun secondary with a spread so small you can still hit nearly all projectiles at max range (at least against a C).

TheChaffeemancer, on March 06 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

Damage output is bloody cray cray. It is cray cray to the max. You want to know how cray-cray_

- Maths that prove instagibbing -

There is no "adapting" to insta-gibs.

TheChaffeemancer, on March 06 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

Kiwi would like to know how you propose to avoid getting close to a Raider when it can catch up to you whenever it wants, never mind the fact that it does not need to "face hug" to do that full 240. Kiwi would like to note that the burst from the Bolt beats most other weapons in inital damage (it's on par with the flak, but has tighter spread, though this will need testing) Though looking at this, Kiwi sees that EOC damage is cray-cray.

[GunnRdog]

the raider will now take the place of my scout

[flimsy]

I do thing the mech needs a bit of a nerf. That being said, even with the speed boost it doesn't have survivability of a scout. I can usually get away with 0-3 deaths a game in a heat scout, but while I end up getting similar scores with the raider, I die a lot more often as well. The special ability doesn't seem to affect the dodge cooldown, which is the biggest factor keeping me alive in A classes. I've also yet to run into a raider who can kill me in a duel. I usually end up dying to raiders who come from behind while I'm fighting someone else. If it's one on one and we can both see each other, I can play keep away even if they can temporarily become much faster than I am, simply because of the faster dodge cooldown.

[Taihus]

The Raider excels at close-range burst damage, which means that the only problem I have with them at the moment would be the way they get used when playing Siege on Origin.  All one team has to do is camp a bunch of Raiders under the AA and they've pretty much got the round won.  It's difficult to flank them properly due to the nature of the map, and I've found that flanking and hitting them while they repair is pretty much the only way of having any hope of taking the AA when the other team starts stacking up on Raiders.

[phed]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 06 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

phed, on March 06 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Perhaps you guys could get someargumentative writing advice from x...

These are all things we said before Xacius posted saying that the Raider was powerful due to it's ability to close distance and do heavy damage.

Beemann, on March 05 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

(240 damage rocket shotgun+EOC burst)

AsianJoyKiller, on March 05 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

It's normally the same speed at all Bs. But Blitz allows you to easily overtake an A.
Also that boost pretty much lasts for all your fuel.

TheChaffeemancer, on March 06 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

This baffles Kiwi greatly, especially since no one seems to have an issue with the fact that the Raider has a 240 damage rocket shotgun secondary with a spread so small you can still hit nearly all projectiles at max range (at least against a C).

TheChaffeemancer, on March 06 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

Damage output is bloody cray cray. It is cray cray to the max. You want to know how cray-cray_

- Maths that prove instagibbing -

There is no "adapting" to insta-gibs.

TheChaffeemancer, on March 06 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

Kiwi would like to know how you propose to avoid getting close to a Raider when it can catch up to you whenever it wants, never mind the fact that it does not need to "face hug" to do that full 240. Kiwi would like to note that the burst from the Bolt beats most other weapons in inital damage (it's on par with the flak, but has tighter spread, though this will need testing) Though looking at this, Kiwi sees that EOC damage is cray-cray.

This^^^  is what I'm was referring to.  Kiwi's delivery comes off as either weird or condescending, beeman provides facts (awesome) and let's the reader assign his own interpretation (raise's the level of the debate, but leaves dummies scratching their heads), and you take every half-hearted ribbing as a direct attack.  I was only playing dude, but like any good joke (not saying mine was) there is a kernal of truth.  

Tl;dr:  ajk is prolly troll'n me...

[AsianJoyKiller]

phed, on March 06 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

This^^^  is what I'm was referring to.  Kiwi's delivery comes off as either weird or condescending, beeman provides facts (awesome) and let's the reader assign his own interpretation (raise's the level of the debate, but leaves dummies scratching their heads), and you take every half-hearted ribbing as a direct attack.  I was only playing dude, but like any good joke (not saying mine was) there is a kernal of truth.

But when you look at the pure subject matter, several people disagreed with what we had said, and then when Xacius said the same things, they agreed.

That means people either aren't reading carefully enough (and if they are confused or think we're not being clear enough, they should be asking for clarification) or disagreeing because of who we are or because they don't like our style (point in case: people claiming Kiwi is being condescending because he talks in the third, which is something he's always done since forever).
Neither are good habits for having a productive discussion.

[phed]

Dude, I know what it means... I typed it.  I usually like to conserve my words and let the inferences speak for themselves.  I'd rather not insult the masses for having poor reading comprehension, but it goes hand in hand with ineffective writing habits. Without one the other becomes moot.  

I don't personally disagree with anything you or the other rational minds have posted and agree with most points.  

I was just answering the rhetorical question you previously posed.   And I think you agree with me in that x is more effective than you guys at presenting the same data and arguing the same points.


Tl;dr:  I'm now certain that ajk is trolling me, but am compelled to repeat the same negative feedback loop ad infinitum.

[AsianJoyKiller]

phed, on March 06 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

I was just answering the rhetorical question you previously posed. And I think you agree with me in that x is more effective than you guys at presenting the same data and arguing the same points.

As far as I'm aware, I haven't even posed any questions at all in this thread, so color me confused.

And if I though Xacius's method of presenting data was more effective than my own, then I would present it as he does and not as I do.
Yet I present my points in the manner I do and not in the manner Xacius does.

[Taihus]

Can we return to the subject and start discussing the Raider again_

I think we can agree that it not only has absurd burst damage, but it is extremely easy for the Raider to close distances to apply that burst damage.

[v009]

Dammmmmmmmmm. The MIRV does damage of 240. Ouch. I thought the damage would be around the tow of 185 or less.

[phed]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 06 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

phed, on March 06 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

I was just answering the rhetorical question you previously posed. And I think you agree with me in that x is more effective than you guys at presenting the same data and arguing the same points.

As far as I'm aware, I haven't even posed any questions at all in this thread, so color me confused.

AsianJoyKiller, on March 06 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Asian, Kiwi and Beemann say things are OP, people go "OMG UR WRONG!"
Xacius says things are OP, people go "OMG SO RIGHT!"

AsianJoyKiller, on March 06 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

And if I though Xacius's method of presenting data was more effective than my own, then I would present it as he does and not as I do.
Yet I present my points in the manner I do and not in the manner Xacius does.

...perhaps i read to much into subtext, but i think you are arguing semantics, and i'm just too stupid to let it go.

Taihus, on March 06 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

Can we return to the subject and start discussing the Raider again_

I think we can agree that it not only has absurd burst damage, but it is extremely easy for the Raider to close distances to apply that burst damage.

unfortunately no.  i'm sorry i can't let you do that.

[Krellus]

AJK - it's just the forums, man.

PS - everyone needs time to adjust to the raider. See how it is in a week or two.

PPS - i'd really like to see the new map fully done.

Edited by Krellus, March 06 2013 - 11:15 PM.

[Command0Dude]

Honestly_ I'm not even going to bother playing Hawken until next update.

Raider is crazy op.

+Massive damage
+Almost no damage potential fall off at mid range, can even hit well at long range
+Faster than an A class as an ability AND can shoot while boosting

The only thing I'm seeing is Raiders dominating both team listings. And for good reason, it has no drawbacks. NONE.

This thing needs a hard nerf.

[Xacius]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 06 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Asian, Kiwi and Beemann say things are OP, people go "OMG UR WRONG!"
Xacius says things are OP, people go "OMG SO RIGHT!"

AsianJoyKiller, on March 06 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

phed, on March 06 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

I was just answering the rhetorical question you previously posed. And I think you agree with me in that x is more effective than you guys at presenting the same data and arguing the same points.

As far as I'm aware, I haven't even posed any questions at all in this thread, so color me confused.

And if I though Xacius's method of presenting data was more effective than my own, then I would present it as he does and not as I do.
Yet I present my points in the manner I do and not in the manner Xacius does.

You based your assumptions on raw data, whereas I provided detailed information from extensive gameplay experience. We approached the same problem with different mindsets and came out at the same conclusion. What does it matter, then, how others receive your opinions compared to mine_

The Steel Killers, yourself included, have a tendency for trolling these forums, which may therein reduce your credibility on claims about aspects of the game.

Nonetheless, what does it matter_ The bickering has simply detracted from the main point. Maybe it's time for a poll.

Edited by Xacius, March 07 2013 - 12:15 AM.

[ReachH]

MOVING ON.

RentAKnight, on March 06 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

heat scout is still top tier.  it won't be going away.

raider ability requires fuel to get full use out of it... dependency on fuel.

I'd like to add that while the HEAT Scout is certainly still very competitive, the Raider just brings a lot  too much to the table. Especially in team game modes where there is a bit of stagnation to to the difficulty of assaulting the AA/camped out Silo 2s.

The in vogue objective capping play was previously to use Class Cs as leverage because of their health pool, now I can see Raiders dominating that role. The fact is that its damage potential is just ridiculous, added to the utility of the EOC, the reflack being able to ricochet (all of which when combined with the HEAT tweak, brings them more on-par), and none of the drawbacks of Hellfire tier, this mech comes in at the highest tier. That's even before you consider the Blitz ability... which has a lot more implications that just being able to shoot while moving.

I'm not sure whether the ability has a place, or is a breath of fresh air or what. It seems to me that the big problem right now is that the ability both grants mobility and enhances combat directly. I'll have to spend more time with the mech, and currently I'm fresh outta free time for the near future.

Well played, Sentium engineers. You're move Prosk.

[If I had to take a position right now, I would say damage reduction on the mirv to 190, ability needs reworking, not sure the extent yet]

Edited by ReachH, March 07 2013 - 12:24 AM.

[flimsy]

I retract what I said. I played Xacius a few hours ago, and his EOC raider killed me so fast I didn't even really have time to react.