369 replies to this topic

[SmithofLie]

I think that better solution would be, if each model had its own, unique, chasis customization options. As this is only beta I assumed the fact that chasis customization makes mechs look like other models is only due to using already existing assets to test the feature.

This way the point of custom chasis still applies but the ease of recognizing the threat remains.

[KaszaWspraju]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 11 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

KaszaWspraju, on March 11 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

Quote

baseless insults

There was no such intention.

Ah.
Well then, you may want to be more careful with your wording in the future.

EDIT: Sorry if I'm being abrupt.

hahahah - directly refers to this part of statement AJK: "can be problematic in competitive play"
I was very amused that Pro players complain about something so little important (for their skill) and in the context of competitive play. I thought they would not have a problem with it.

About : Just by the attitude of some cool components have already been removed. I had implicitly Crosshair shaking on impact, heat bars on cockpit. These things have been removed by the feedback from pro players, in my opinion, it is also lowering the bar, Imo too.


Sorki - diminutive, used in everyday speech Polish language, English word "Sorry". Google translation went wrong here.

What meaning does "physical limitations of your body" have in this sentence.

Many players complaining about something that is only limited by their physical body. I wanted to note here that someone will recognize weapons faster or silhouette of the enemy. This is a limitation which is in part due to our physical characteristics.

In the Polish language uses a lot guesswork, personal verbs. It's hard to translate this, knowing only the basics of English grammar.

Unfortunately google translator, changed some parts of speech to more personal, which seem to be directed at someone.

In the future I will try to be more given to formulating my opinion.

Edited by KaszaWspraju, March 11 2013 - 06:42 AM.

[Keyser Soze]

stallion, on March 11 2013 - 02:33 AM, said:

I'll retain from voting atm, but I must admit I love how cosmetics can deceive
ex. rushing with my EOC infiltrator on S2, capping, TwiceDead shows up, and I think to myself "why on earth is he piloting bruiser_"  
BAM! powershot+sabot+slug, stallion down...

true story

This alone should be more than enough reason why this should not be implemented. I vote NO due to the unfair advantage that seeing everything in default would give to your opponent. This nerf for OP and that nerf for OP now this.....seems like alot of players want to take any kind of challenge out of this game. Whats the point of playing a boring ass game. There are plenty on the market right now so GO PLAY THOSE....The skins are one thing but being able to shape the mech how you want whether it be to deceive the type mech or just self expression, should never be hit with a nerf bat or changed in anyway IMO.

I Like that in this game you truly cant JUDGE A BOOK BY ITS COVER!

Soze

Edited by Keyser Soze, March 11 2013 - 06:29 AM.

[MajorMojo]

AJK I'm glad you brought this up.  I wanted to but now you can take the heat

In a game where there is real difference between classes I think you should be able to recognize them from a distance.  Is that Fred or a Sharpshooter, a Brawler or a Rocketeer_  

I take note that you are only specifically talking about chassis model so they could allow you to force these models but still allow the paint jobs to show.

SmithofLie, on March 11 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

I think that better solution would be, if each model had its own, unique, chasis customization options. As this is only beta I assumed the fact that chasis customization makes mechs look like other models is only due to using already existing assets to test the feature.

This way the point of custom chasis still applies but the ease of recognizing the threat remains.

Yes I was thinking the same thing.  Ideally they would have two or three unique models for each mech that could not be used on other mechs.  More work for the devs but this is the best solution IMO.

[KaszaWspraju]

In my opinion, option to force default chassis, is not the way. Rather, it would be better to increase differences in the sounds of weapons, animations, muzzle flash, to make it easier to identify. All in all, watching matches with the same mechs/chassis, it would be a little more boring.

[Keyser Soze]

MajorMojo, on March 11 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

AJK I'm glad you brought this up.  I wanted to but now you can take the heat

In a game where there is real difference between classes I think you should be able to recognize them from a distance.  Is that Fred or a Sharpshooter, a Brawler or a Rocketeer_  

I take note that you are only specifically talking about chassis model so they could allow you to force these models but still allow the paint jobs to show.

SmithofLie, on March 11 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

I think that better solution would be, if each model had its own, unique, chasis customization options. As this is only beta I assumed the fact that chasis customization makes mechs look like other models is only due to using already existing assets to test the feature.

This way the point of custom chasis still applies but the ease of recognizing the threat remains.

Yes I was thinking the same thing.  Ideally they would have two or three unique models for each mech that could not be used on other mechs.  More work for the devs but this is the best solution IMO.

That would put the damn game even more on easy street for those pilots who are lazy and cant tell from engaging the opponent what the hell type mech they are up against. I think this whole convo is pretty weak TBH. While we are at it lets have a flashing sign above the mech telling the other player exactly what guns they have equipped and also what ever mods they have added so that you take any kind of skill out of the combat aspect of the game. We should be able to customize the look and feel of our mechs with every option the game has available...PERIOD!

Please do not try and turn this ultimately wicked game into a game geared towards whiney leet headed Children.

Edited by Keyser Soze, March 11 2013 - 06:39 AM.

[Leonhardt]

SmithofLie, on March 11 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

I think that better solution would be, if each model had its own, unique, chasis customization options. As this is only beta I assumed the fact that chasis customization makes mechs look like other models is only due to using already existing assets to test the feature.

This way the point of custom chasis still applies but the ease of recognizing the threat remains.

Solves the issue and provides the devs with more money. Having unique chassis gives them the excuse of not applying whatever was bought for that mech to other mechs in the garage. Not to mention people like having exclusive skins for their specific role. Outside of competitive play (where most of Hawken community is and will remain) people like to be identifiable, but unique. Great idea.

[Keyser Soze]

Leonhardt, on March 11 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

SmithofLie, on March 11 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

I think that better solution would be, if each model had its own, unique, chasis customization options. As this is only beta I assumed the fact that chasis customization makes mechs look like other models is only due to using already existing assets to test the feature.

This way the point of custom chasis still applies but the ease of recognizing the threat remains.

Solves the issue and provides the devs with more money. Having unique chassis gives them the excuse of not applying whatever was bought for that mech to other mechs in the garage. Not to mention people like having exclusive skins for their specific role. Outside of competitive play (where most of Hawken community is and will remain) people like to be identifiable, but unique. Great idea.

Sure Great Idea....If you are total fuzzy bunny!       I dont see an issue with customizing the chassis with any chassis in the game. THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE OR PROBLEM....more like a complaint for a reason I just do not grasp at this time. Having only a select set of chassis for each mech is the same as nerfing the chassis all together. This takes away any element of suprise (which I love in this game) or skill in combat (which alot of players do not have and would rather complain about until they nerf the game to there lazy level)

Either way I am not sure that it would stop here with the changing things to make it easier for the opponent. This road if traveled will destroy any kind of real expression right out of the game.....I have an idea.....lets all just have freds only and 1 set of weapons...NO Choice...No learning curve...Just FUN..........see how ridiculous that sounds!

[MajorMojo]

Keyser Soze, on March 11 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

That would put the damn game even more on easy street for those pilots who are lazy and cant tell from engaging the opponent what the hell type mech they are up against. I think this whole convo is pretty weak TBH. While we are at it lets have a flashing sign above the mech telling the other player exactly what guns they have equipped and also what ever mods they have added so that you take any kind of skill out of the combat aspect of the game. We should be able to customize the look and feel of our mechs with every option the game has available...PERIOD!

Please do not try and turn this ultimately wicked game into a game geared towards whiney leet headed Children.

Does it make me lazy that I want to be able to see what I'm up against_  Sure after that Fred - Sharpshooter takes me out once I'm ready for him the next time.  But wait he's respawned as an actual CR-T Fred!  Fooled again - lulz!

So taken to the extreme should my Brawler be able to wear a Scout chassis or vice versa_

To me a big part of this game is the matchups between classes and mechs.  Not being able to tell what you're up against until you are already engaged takes some of the fun out of it.

[Keyser Soze]

MajorMojo, on March 11 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

Keyser Soze, on March 11 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

That would put the damn game even more on easy street for those pilots who are lazy and cant tell from engaging the opponent what the hell type mech they are up against. I think this whole convo is pretty weak TBH. While we are at it lets have a flashing sign above the mech telling the other player exactly what guns they have equipped and also what ever mods they have added so that you take any kind of skill out of the combat aspect of the game. We should be able to customize the look and feel of our mechs with every option the game has available...PERIOD!

Please do not try and turn this ultimately wicked game into a game geared towards whiney leet headed Children.

Does it make me lazy that I want to be able to see what I'm up against_  Sure after that Fred - Sharpshooter takes me out once I'm ready for him the next time.  But wait he's respawned as an actual CR-T Fred!  Fooled again - lulz!

So taken to the extreme should my Brawler be able to wear a Scout chassis or vice versa_

To me a big part of this game is the matchups between classes and mechs.  Not being able to tell what you're up against until you are already engaged takes some of the fun out of it.

REALLY_....It Takes no fun out of it.....In fact It Just makes you work harder to be a better pilot and able to take on any class with what ever mech you primarily pilot....Im an A class Pilot pretty much all of the time( Because that's how I roll) This doesn't stop me from engaging any opponent even though I may be out sized and out gunned I want to learn how my skills in my favorite mech can beat this opponent ......one word........EVOLVE!

[DocGiggles]

I was actually quite shocked to learn you could change your main chassis.

All it does really is A. Confuse the noobs (A very bad idea for a free game, especially since the only other thing it does is B ) and B. Generate money. Advanced players will quickly identify a mech by its weapons, so it has very little bearing on higher level play. Cosmetics are well and good, but when theyre actually being used specifically to confuse new players, or even if that is just a side effect, they've gone too far. Take Team Fortress 2, for example: I can wear a pink bunny hat, a reskined weapon, a different suit, and iPod headphones, but my class is still instantly identifiable to anyone who has played for more than ten minutes.

I don't think you should be able to switch your main chassis at all. The MC should be refunded, and maybe in the future mech-specific alternate chassis that don't break silhouettes should be implemented. There really aren't any practical arguments for being able to do so, other than the income. If you want to look pretty, there are still plenty of options. It doesn't ad d depth, because a decent amount of simple knowledge renders it totally cosmetic. To the newbs who don't have that knowledge, who don't have the rote memorization of weapon/a/b/c combinations down, its just confusing. It's a poor design choice and it only serves to make money. I really hope that is not what this thais game is about.

Example: a new player ambuses a raider wearing the sharpshooter chassis. New player tries to get up in raider's face because he read sharpshooter is a long range class. New player gets face full of rocket shotgun.

That's not "If I played better, I would have beat him." That's not "IfI learn some new tactics with my mech, learn the weaknesses of his mech, I could beat him."
That's " Why the hell does that sharpshooter have a rocket shotgun_" Followed by " If I knew that I was fighting a raider, I would have approached the whole situation differently." It's the cheapest, worst way to deepen your game: add arcana to it. Even if you want to attempt to somehow argue this "depth" is good, you'd still have to address the final nail in the coffin for the whole issue: You have to spend money to get it.

Edited by DocGiggles, March 11 2013 - 08:08 AM.

[SmithofLie]

Keyser Soze, you ever played Team Fortress 2_ You know why the game is often hailed as one of best team shooters out there_ Well, one of reasons anyway. It's clear graphical design, with very distinct classes. The fact you can tell Heavy from Medic from Scout in 1 glance is very important part of gameplay, cause it establishes a certain battlefield.

The way you think, swapping chasis makes for a challange, is not the right way for game to add skill level. It is like you demanded that weapon fires only after you press your mouse button 5 times instead instantly. More skill needed!

But of course, since I belive in good design I guess that makes me a fuzz or lazy. Tough. But you inspired me, lets up the skillcap of chess by making each piece an exactly same looking piece of wood, that can only be recognized by very small symbol on its underside! That'll learn those wimps. Who'd need to know which piece is which anyway!

[Keyser Soze]

This is not team fortress (Which I did play quite a bit)and thank whatever creation you believe in for that....THIS IS HAWKEN! (Movie reference Intended )....If they wanted a team fortress they would have made a sequel or whatever team fortress has coming next...Instead they made a sick mech game and now they are being bombarded with Fuzzy Bunny complaints like Whaaaa  I died because I was sniped by someone who looked like a FRED(Sup Skills) or WHAAA I thought it was a bruiser but it had a Flack cannon and I died....WHAAA I am unable to play above my level because I am too busy whining about others who are.....This to me is truly what this argument or"" Poll is about.......This will be my last post on the topic....So the same 4 players that keep hounding for this can now say what they want to say although, I am understanding there argument. I am not a new player and I don't feel changes should be based on new players but the ones who play everyday and truly understand the flow of this game.....be weak and ask for changes for the game  to be brought down to your level if you want...I would rather the learning curve be even harder so that the end result is a better skilled player base.

Get out there and practice until you are good enough with your mech to react when the conditions change like....whoops not the mech I thought it was....or whoops he has a Flack cannon.....or whoops I am not as good as I need to be so lets practice......

IM JUST SAYIN

Soze

Edited by Keyser Soze, March 11 2013 - 08:36 AM.

[davek1979]

Keyser Soze, on March 11 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

This is not team fortress (Which I did play quite a bit)and thank whatever creation you believe in for that....THIS IS HAWKEN! (Movie reference Intended )....If they wanted a team fortress they would have made a sequel or whatever team fortress has coming next...Instead they made a sick mech game and now they are being bombarded with Fuzzy Bunny complaints like Whaaaa  I died because I was sniped by someone who looked like a FRED(Sup Skills) or WHAAA I thought it was a bruiser but it had a Flack cannon and I died....WHAAA I am unable to play above my level because I am too busy whining about others who are.....This to me is truly what this argument or"" Poll is about.......This will be my last post on the topic.

Get out there and practice until you are good enough with your mech to react when the conditions change like....whoops not the mech I thought it was....or whoops he has a Flack cannon.....or whoops I am not as good as I need to be so lets practice......

IM JUST SAYIN

Soze

Glad you were JUST SAYIN as you successfully dodged all the valid points aimed at you. Guess it's good this was your last post on the topic.

[DocGiggles]

Keyser Soze, on March 11 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

This is not team fortress (Which I did play quite a bit)and thank whatever creation you believe in for that....THIS IS HAWKEN! (Movie reference Intended )....If they wanted a team fortress they would have made a sequel or whatever team fortress has coming next...Instead they made a sick mech game and now they are being bombarded with Fuzzy Bunny complaints like Whaaaa  I died because I was sniped by someone who looked like a FRED(Sup Skills) or WHAAA I thought it was a bruiser but it had a Flack cannon and I died....WHAAA I am unable to play above my level because I am too busy whining about others who are.....This to me is truly what this argument or"" Poll is about.......This will be my last post on the topic.

Get out there and practice until you are good enough with your mech to react when the conditions change like....whoops not the mech I thought it was....or whoops he has a Flack cannon.....or whoops I am not as good as I need to be so lets practice......

IM JUST SAYIN

Soze

You are either trolling or truly unable or unwilling to understand the arguments made against this.

This is not a matter of improving your skills, its a matter of knowledge. Especially considering this is a free to play game, especially considering that you must pay money for a chassis change, it will feel cheap and confusing to new players. Being brutally difficult and being confusing are much, much different things. While a veteran will instantly understand that the Sharpshooter with a TOW launcher is a FRED, the new player will not. It's more or less binary, which adds nothing to the game.

You have evaded all the actual points made against your argument, and saying you will not post anymore in this thread shows an unwillingness to be open. And youre the one talking about adapting.

Edited by DocGiggles, March 11 2013 - 08:26 AM.

[Majic12]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 11 2013 - 05:14 AM, said:

Let me pose these questions to you...

How often, and be honest, do you get people commenting on how your mech looks_
And how often does that happen in comparison to how often you see your own mech while repairing or in the garage and think "that looks nice"_
Something else to think about. People who would turn this on are likely people who don't care much about what other people's mechs look like in the first place.

If you think that others not being able to see your customization would have an appreciable affect on profits, it's highly unlikely.
Global Agenda had the same sort of system, yet the fact that you could disable dyes clientside didn't deter people from buying all kinds of wild patterns and using them. The dyes in that game were tradeable via the auction house, and some of the dyes would shoot up to costs of over 10 million credits (a price only in range of veteran players).

Cosmetics in general are vanity items, and as such, it really ends up being more about ourselves than you might think. People who customize, do it for themselves when you get down to it. That's the driving force behind why cosmetic options are so popular and make great money in F2P games. And if there's even a chance that someone else might see you, like this option would allow for, there's plenty of people (myself included) willing to drop cash on it.

Excuse me being brief, I'm not feeling too good.

I can understand where you're coming from and I agree that this is probably heavily influenced by how you approch the game.

I haven't gotten any comments at all so far regarding the sole appearance of my mech, at least not that I remebers, but that does not mean people not noticing it or thinking for themselves "dayum that dude sure looks fine". You'll surely find yourself strolling around sometimes and noticing a nice pair of shoes or a jacket or whatever without immediately alerting the bearer of said apparel of your appreciation. Perhaps that's just wishful thinking of mine, but I like to pretend people actually enjoy looking at my mech's appearance, or at least some.

As for Global Agenda, I am not familiar with the game but as someone pointed out before, it's third person which has you look at your character all the time.

But while I agree with you on the point of cosmetics being for ourselves mainly, but I think this is still a matter of projecting our own perception of the design you made onto the players around you, thus making yourself make them appreciate your appearance. I hope this makes sense, I'm not good friends with words.

Anyways, I still think it's best to keep everything as is and add the possibility to toggle customized chassis on and off via a server side option for tournaments of competitive play.

Off for a quick rest.

Hope I made some sense.

[ExtremeUnction]

Pure_Amazing, on March 11 2013 - 03:10 AM, said:

Hmmm while it does sound like a good idea I have to wonder if everyone uses this option then it might defeat the purpose of customization. Because while you can still see your customization other people won't be able to see your awesome looking mech which to me is the purpose of customization. To have everyone else look at your mech not just you.

It does sound like a good idea but at the same time I disagree soooo i'm going to hold back on my vote.

It's kinda stupid to dress up your mech so other people can see how cool you look. It's not like you designed the paint job or chassis yourself. What are you showing off_ The money you spent_

While I hate when I can't identify other mechs, I think the deception is a good thing. It's just another way to throw off your opponent.

I don't have any paint jobs or custom chassis on any of my mechs. When I find one I really really like playing(possibly inf) then I might put a little into it(make it look like a berserker likely) but I'd rather not put any MC into cosmetics until I have nothing else to do with it. I feel like cosmetics are a little overpriced but maybe that's a good thing. The people who can and do contribute to the game's development get to show it.

[Pure_Amazing]

ExtremeUnction, on March 11 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

Pure_Amazing, on March 11 2013 - 03:10 AM, said:

Hmmm while it does sound like a good idea I have to wonder if everyone uses this option then it might defeat the purpose of customization. Because while you can still see your customization other people won't be able to see your awesome looking mech which to me is the purpose of customization. To have everyone else look at your mech not just you.

It does sound like a good idea but at the same time I disagree soooo i'm going to hold back on my vote.

It's kinda stupid to dress up your mech so other people can see how cool you look. It's not like you designed the paint job or chassis yourself. What are you showing off_ The money you spent_

While I hate when I can't identify other mechs, I think the deception is a good thing. It's just another way to throw off your opponent.

I don't have any paint jobs or custom chassis on any of my mechs. When I find one I really really like playing(possibly inf) then I might put a little into it(make it look like a berserker likely) but I'd rather not put any MC into cosmetics until I have nothing else to do with it. I feel like cosmetics are a little overpriced but maybe that's a good thing. The people who can and do contribute to the game's development get to show it.

So what your saying is that the entire F2P model this game is based on is pretty "Stupid" because you don't have a reason to spend money to dress up your mech. But you would rather spend money to customize to look like another mech just to get that bit of deception_ That sounds like P2W talk to me.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Hey Keyser, think you could make a post that's logically sound and not full of insults_ That would be nice and help the discussion along constructively.

[SmithofLie]

Keyser Soze is mistaking complexity with depth.

Making each mech able to look like any other one in the same class does not add depth to game, it actually lessens it. It introduces confusion by rising complexity without proper gameplay behind it. Customizing a mech to fill certain role requires skill - you decide what optimizations you need, which weapong is right for your plan, et caetera. Changing chasis only requires money.

Part of skill set in any game is knowlege base. You know what Rider does and you know in what situations Reaper is dangerous. You build that up and react accordingly, making split second decisions. But if you can't easily identify gameplay situation it does not enhance challange, nor requires more skill, it actually devaluates the knowledge of the game.

Since we established our dissenter playes Team Fortress, let's transplant chasis problem onto that ground. Imagine that each class there can buy skin to look like any other. You play Scout built for short range, running with baseball bat. You see enemy sniper close, so you run at him. Bam! You are dead, it was heavy! How does this relate to your skill or lack of thereof_ It does not, since it is not skill to buy a skin.

Keeping the chasis of each model instantly recognizable removes element of what is essentially randomness. Random player bought random skin for his chasis, you can't be sure if you just caught defensless Sharpshooter or got into cage match with Raider at the first glance.

There are ways to add depth to the game, to make the skillcap higher. Pointless complexity is not one of them.