369 replies to this topic

[ShadowWarg]

SilentJacket, on March 11 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

PlagueDoctor, on March 11 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

Maybe a symbol displayed next to the enemies' health bar representing their class_

that might work actually

Its so simple!

[AsianJoyKiller]

ShadowWarg, on March 11 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

Yes you are right, a player shouldn't have an advantage over another just because they dished out some money to make their mech look a particular way.

So you would say that switching chassis provides an advantage that can only be gained by paying_

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You said that deception isn't a skill, and you are partly correct in that we are talking about the "look" of the mech confusing others, but then lets move one step further. Say that someone buys a zerker and gives it an infiltrator look, they both have AR's but different secondaries. The guy with the zerker finds an opponent and CHOOSES not to use the TOW until he absolutely has to, thus throwing the other guy off guard when he does. Does a deliberate action like this still not qualify as skill or tactics_ (there is also the holo, but thats not what we are talking about) If you say "no" that's alright. However "Observation" is a skill.

First off, if you engage with your AR long before you engage your TOW or GL, you are squandering a much greater tactical advantage. It's like saying "Hey! I'm shooting you from over here. Let me give you a moment to react and take cover."

But again, it's taken no effort to GAIN the advantage of the deception. You haven't done anything skillfully to get to the point where you look like a different class.
You simply spawn and TA DA!!! Advantage gained.
It's not like a feint, acting like and selling your opponent on the idea you're going to do one thing, but then doing another. It's not like making a tricky escape using Holo or Cloak, breaking LoS.

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An action like this would only work once against an experienced player and most likely only in the first few minutes of the match. After that, for the rest of the match its a useless tactic.

That's not true.
Let's say I customize mechs so all my B's look like Freds and I constantly switch between my B Classes.
The chassis does not expire based on any sort of time limit, and I'm restricted to using 1 mech, so I can constantly leverage this advantage.

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Even more experienced players can spot that the mech was actually a zerker just by paying attention to what weapons it had. Observation is a skill that you, myself and many other experienced players have developed so we don't fall pray so easily to something as simple as a body swap.

I'm tempted to produce a video to see if people are really as good at picking out the weapons as they say they are.
In more chaotic engagements, with multiple targets or at midrange it's rarely obvious, even when looking at still images.

Quote

If you give the option to players to force the default bodies to render, not only does that give them a handicap (a small one but a handicap non the less)

As you can only gain the advantage by purchasing a chassis, turning Force Default on would actually remove the handicap advantage of switching chassis, not the other way around.

[Beefsweat]

in team fortress 2, all characters are blue or red

I think in hawken esports it should be the same

Edited by Beefsweat, March 11 2013 - 07:54 PM.

[Tomino_sama]

This. Is. Ridiculous.

TF2 is overated. eSports can exist with Hawken as it is. People might cry if they lose. That is a personal problem that players must learn to deal with.

Changing the game to dumb it down I.E. Removing customisation options, does nothing to make the gameplay more or less fair. I argue there is no real advantage. Anything gained is lost equally, so no all this fuss is over nothing.


If the small number of "in the know" players decide to make eSports Stock only. I won't be playing.


Individuality expressed through customisation is a small part of what we call immersion. self-induced perhaps, but it is the same in any game. You make you car your favourite color, etc. So take that away and the mulitplayer is boring to watch.

So ridiculous that people complain about heads being changed. Seriously get some skill!!

[Tomino_sama]

Steel Killers

You are a strong Clan. It is irrelevant what mech heads your enemy have fitted they all blow the same. Why this issue_

If people want to do this, kill them. This seems like OCD leaking into a game. If you know a mechanic exists even if it is cosmetic, don't be surprised about it.

If I have no TOW and I have Hellfires that means nothing.


I customise the other parts mainly to get a design that i like the look of. Also it supports a game I enjoy. If eSports ban this, you just shutdown a good stream of income for the game *applause*

[AsianJoyKiller]

Tomino_sama, on March 11 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

eSports can exist with Hawken as it is.

No it can't.
The developers themselves have admitted that Hawken could not be considered eSports viable the way things currently stand.

Quote

Changing the game to dumb it down I.E. Removing customisation options, does nothing to make the gameplay more or less fair. I argue there is no real advantage. Anything gained is lost equally, so no all this fuss is over nothing.

Are you actually reading the discussion here, or are you spouting baseless assertions_
People on both sides of the argument are admitting that switching your chassis gives an advantage.

Quote

If the small number of "in the know" players decide to make eSports Stock only. I won't be playing.

Did you miss the part where this would be an OPTION_

Quote

Individuality expressed through customisation is a small part of what we call immersion. self-induced perhaps, but it is the same in any game. You make you car your favourite color, etc. So take that away and the mulitplayer is boring to watch.

Multiplayer is not boring to watch because people use default cosmetics...
My evidence_ Every single eSport game that doesn't allow you to doing much, if any customization.
What makes mutliplayer boring to watch is bad gameplay, not pretty swag.

Quote

So ridiculous that people complain about heads being changed. Seriously get some skill!!

Ok, first off, stop with the ad hominem personal attacks.
Secondly, you don't want to play the epeen game with me. There's others who can get away with that, but not you.

Tomino_sama, on March 11 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

Steel Killers

You are a strong Clan. It is irrelevant what mech heads your enemy have fitted they all blow the same. Why this issue_

1) Since when am I the entire Steel Killers clan_
2) No. It's not irrelevant. Start reading the thread. Educate yourself please.

Quote

If eSports ban this, you just shutdown a good stream of income for the game *applause*

Can you prove it it_

[Beemann]

It's not about personal experience or whether or not we win. We can win against people playing Sharpshooter and Raider as well as long as they're not very good at it
The fact of the matter is that you're giving what many supporters of the current customization system would essentially define it as a paid advantage
Additionally, you're falsely equating depth and complexity, because you're falsely equating dumbing down and streamlining. What we want in the game is depth. Depth is the truly "thinky" bits of the game. Depth is utilizing ACTUAL deception, like fake outs and flanking and using explosives to force movement in a particular direction
Complexity is what we're trying to minimize. A certain amount of complexity is necessary to add depth, as complexity is every new basic thing you add to the game. However, if Hawken's goal was complexity you wouldnt be doing abstract things like holding down M1 to fire or having automatically starting mechs, you'd have to flip a bunch of switches to get everything to work to the same degree it does now

Edited by Beemann, March 11 2013 - 08:53 PM.

[Timber_Wolf]

I support this.

I hate having the jump on what I think is a rocketeer only have him spin around and grenade me to death with rev-gl spam.  Paying for a mech chassis so that you can't be identified on the fly I've always felt is an unfair advantage so I don't do it, myself, but it always throws me for a loop and makes identification of enemies harder.

I support eSports forcing stock chassis.

[Dead3yez]

PlagueDoctor, on March 11 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

Maybe a symbol displayed next to the enemies' health bar representing their class_

This. Obvious solution is obvious. Symbol or Mech type in form of abbreviation (e.g RDR = Raider BRL = Brawler BSR = Bruiser) next to name or health bar.

Meteor ain't gonna shoot themselves in the foot by disincentivising people to customise their mechs. That's just plain stupid.

[tman7919]

Dead3yez, on March 11 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

PlagueDoctor, on March 11 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

Maybe a symbol displayed next to the enemies' health bar representing their class_

This. Obvious solution is obvious. Symbol or Mech type in form of abbreviation (e.g RDR = Raider BRL = Brawler BSR = Bruiser) next to name or health bar.

Meteor ain't gonna shoot themselves in the foot by disincentivising people to customise their mechs. That's just plain stupid.

I second this.

[Beemann]

TIL that Adhesive makes all of their money on the main chassis parts, not on thrusters, paint jobs, repair drones, instant purchases for mechs/items/weapons/internals, or holo taunts. I learned this from people who don't have any proof that this is the case

Additionally, I learned that people buy parts not to customize their mech, but to show off to other people, or to trick them, and that this needless bit of complexity and confusion actually adds depth instead of just making the game needlessly confusing for spectators and newbies

Clearly the answer is to add another smudgy bit to the cockpit that you'll have to read right in the middle of a fight instead of just being sensible about cosmetic options

[Timber_Wolf]

Dead3yez, on March 11 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

PlagueDoctor, on March 11 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

Maybe a symbol displayed next to the enemies' health bar representing their class_

This. Obvious solution is obvious. Symbol or Mech type in form of abbreviation (e.g RDR = Raider BRL = Brawler BSR = Bruiser) next to name or health bar.

Meteor ain't gonna shoot themselves in the foot by disincentivising people to customise their mechs. That's just plain stupid.

Have you tried to read anything in game_
I can't read jack in game.

EDIT:  AND IT'S NOT BECAUSE OF MY LEARNING DISABILITY, SHUT UP.
EDIT EDIT:  Also, learning the symbols for that many classes seems like a pain.  We have what, 10+ mechs already, and more added monthly_  That or you have to read their class name, which again, is difficult to do on the fly, or you have to bring up the tab menu which still takes you out of the game cause you're busy reading and looking at the overlay
EDIT EDIT EDIT:  And the idea with BSR, RDR, INF, seems messy too.  Eventually we're going to have a bunch of different, close sounding names and abbreviations.

Edited by Timber_Wolf, March 11 2013 - 09:18 PM.

[Dead3yez]

Timber_Wolf, on March 11 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

...

Well, that's another thing that needs to be fixed first. and lol.

[SilentJacket]

Timber_Wolf, on March 11 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

Dead3yez, on March 11 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

PlagueDoctor, on March 11 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

Maybe a symbol displayed next to the enemies' health bar representing their class_

This. Obvious solution is obvious. Symbol or Mech type in form of abbreviation (e.g RDR = Raider BRL = Brawler BSR = Bruiser) next to name or health bar.

Meteor ain't gonna shoot themselves in the foot by disincentivising people to customise their mechs. That's just plain stupid.

Have you tried to read anything in game_
I can't read jack in game.

EDIT:  AND IT'S NOT BECAUSE OF MY LEARNING DISABILITY, SHUT UP.
EDIT EDIT:  Also, learning the symbols for that many classes seems like a pain.  We have what, 10+ mechs already, and more added monthly_  That or you have to read their class name, which again, is difficult to do on the fly, or you have to bring up the tab menu which still takes you out of the game cause you're busy reading and looking at the overlay
EDIT EDIT EDIT:  And the idea with BSR, RDR, INF, seems messy too.  Eventually we're going to have a bunch of different, close sounding names and abbreviations.

no one is saying you are stupid...

I like the text idea, I can, and usually do read the incoming messages I get.

[nokari]

Truthfully I wouldn't care to use it. I can and do kill any mech regardless of what they look like, so it don't matter t'me none. If other people want to use such an option, that's fine by me.

Edited by nokari, March 11 2013 - 09:33 PM.

[Tomino_sama]

Tomino_sama, on March 11 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

eSports can exist with Hawken as it is.

AsianJoyKiller, on March 11 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

No it can't.
The developers themselves have admitted that Hawken could not be considered eSports viable the way things currently stand.

Once it reaches Retail phase I am sure it will be. At present you can setup matches with Clans or open invitations already. I think that was already proven by...._ Regardless you CAN have matches and declare a winner. I see nothing stopping it other than that we should really wait for the Dev's to cvonsider it 'Feature complete" or finished in their opinion. From the standpoint of, Can we play game in an organised fasion_ The answer is yes. FPS can flourish without all these rules regarding what mechs you can use, what items you can use and which body parts you can use. In the end the Best Player wins, Even the Optimisation points prove to do little at present. If you want the ultimate in Fairness for a tournament. It's CRT's using Fresh accounts created for the Tournament. Very simple and easy to organise. Given Tournaments can run for many hours, you would see Pilots prestige before the Finals.

Tomino_sama, on March 11 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

Changing the game to dumb it down I.E. Removing customisation options, does nothing to make the gameplay more or less fair. I argue there is no real advantage. Anything gained is lost equally, so no all this fuss is over nothing.

AsianJoyKiller, on March 11 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

Are you actually reading the discussion here, or are you spouting baseless assertions_
People on both sides of the argument are admitting that switching your chassis gives an advantage.

Tell me how I become a better SS by fitting a Fred head. I have. I am no better through this. I still get the same kills and deaths. Its nothing more than wearing a skin, if anything it makes people seek you out more as you look funny with the wrong loadout. Also If I am firing my Sabot I am not Firing my TOW. That is immediatly obvious to anyone who has played more than a few hours in this game. To a new player they just try to kill you the same, they probably have not unlocked a SS so all mechs look just as different as the next. Once you are familiar with all the mechs and all the loadouts its easy to forget the experience as a pure rookie. You shoot the first thing you see, often friendlies by accident, you kill yourself a lot and you rarely look at the radar. All you think is kill whatever is coming next not, oh maybe he has a GL_ or what if it's an SS_ From an experienced players perspective they see you using non-standard heads and move on. It's not a distrction it causes no confusion so I say it does not affect gameplay. you arguement supports P2W accusations by proxy, had you thought of that_ Meteor only body parts that give an advantage in game_ Please you sound more like the troll here than I do AJK.

Tomino_sama, on March 11 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

If the small number of "in the know" players decide to make eSports Stock only. I won't be playing.

AsianJoyKiller, on March 11 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

Did you miss the part where this would be an OPTION_

I saw that part. That means that servers would exist where I cannot enter without stripping off all my customisations that make my mech mine. If you want this kind of thing, refer to my earlier suggestion. un/Official Tournaments: everyone starts with a fresh account with gametime logged at round end for each account to verify no boosting. Then only match XP is carried over through the tournament, this highlight progression and shows how some people micromanage HC throughout to refit and upgrade between rounds. As the tournament progresses you will see prestige mechs or pilots who chose to invest in a different class etc. Also you can regulate internals that are allowed etc. as each players in every round is streaming, spectation can be done and so on. Everyone would be stock, nobody would want to spend the money on anything but useful items for the tourney. I am a constructive thinker, I see Hawken as it is and there is a clear opportunity to do all of this with what we have now. As I said earlier It's better to wait as Hawken has a lot in store for us yet.

If you want to invite any Pilots into an event but the rules say you can't do this, have this fight here, etc. Players can go on the server now and do what they want already.

Tomino_sama, on March 11 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

Individuality expressed through customisation is a small part of what we call immersion. self-induced perhaps, but it is the same in any game. You make you car your favourite color, etc. So take that away and the mulitplayer is boring to watch.

AsianJoyKiller, on March 11 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

Multiplayer is not boring to watch because people use default cosmetics...
My evidence_ Every single eSport game that doesn't allow you to doing much, if any customization.
What makes mutliplayer boring to watch is bad gameplay, not pretty swag.

The Artistic aesthetic of Hawken includes these customisation features in the Lore. eSports will feature good players, at least in the semi finals and finals anyway Point is you have everyone running Grey mechs, the spectators don't know so much about Hawken like you do. I come from a background in Extreme Sports. If people see a person do a backflip over a big jump they are tens time smore impressed than if a guy slides down a Rail in a technically more impressive way. Although the latter requires skill that the people in the community understand to be better, the public regards the former to be the winning Trick. With computer games it's easy to become engrossed in a subject and lose focus of what the casual viewer would see. If all the mech look the same, iust would look like ... a generic fps with mech skins on ... <<-- that was a description of hawken used by a MWOL lover. With the customisation options it becomes a celebration of Mecha references and an expression of the Pilots tastes.

Tomino_sama, on March 11 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

So ridiculous that people complain about heads being changed. Seriously get some skill!!

AsianJoyKiller, on March 11 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

Ok, first off, stop with the ad hominem personal attacks.
Secondly, you don't want to play the epeen game with me. There's others who can get away with that, but not you.

First off. LAtin is a dead language and I don't think it a proper use in this regard. Secondly, What is the epeen of which you speak. I am 30 and don't know much about this One Direction Lark_ Maybe you can use some English to dumb it down for me a litte

Tomino_sama, on March 11 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

Steel Killers

You are a strong Clan. It is irrelevant what mech heads your enemy have fitted they all blow the same. Why this issue_

AsianJoyKiller, on March 11 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

1) Since when am I the entire Steel Killers clan_
2) No. It's not irrelevant. Start reading the thread. Educate yourself please.

You are a member and so you views can ve given some weight due to that fact, Also as a member it is known you are collectively good at Hawken and Well informed in these issues. I would say you guys are at the forefront on the US side - which has been there for the longest after all. Essentially I dont think that your team would Win any harder if you were up against a team of Head swappers. So this discussion is moot.

I asked for evidence that head swapping provides a real advantage. Unless you are trolling newbies, where you would win just as hard anyway, I say there is no provable advantage of "looking a bit different" to the next target. ALL mechs are a threat regardless of Loadout. This is a fuss over nothing man

Tomino_sama, on March 11 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

If eSports ban this, you just shutdown a good stream of income for the game *applause*

AsianJoyKiller, on March 11 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

Can you prove it it_

Once you finish reading this reply I hope you have been satisfied with the proof that you need. As Body Parts are Meteor only and I know I personally have purchased a lot of parts, imagine this scenario.

"I am an MLG progamer. I want to join Hawken eSports. Body parts and Skins are banned in all the Elite comps. I never pay any money for Meteor. "

The eSports boom hits Hawken. now 80% are eSports players.

As you can see in this scneario that you advocate, the game is then paid for by the 20% that DO buy meteor points. So do you want to pay for all that expanded server capability. They way you seem to want it the Balance would be tipped.



I want the game to survive.

Customisation for eSports!

Prove it doesn't help the game please ans I have bank statements proving it does already LOL

[SilentJacket]

I'd just like to point out that this argument is getting nowhere fast...

[Tomino_sama]

Beemann, on March 11 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

TIL that Adhesive makes all of their money on the main chassis parts, not on thrusters, paint jobs, repair drones, instant purchases for mechs/items/weapons/internals, or holo taunts. I learned this from people who don't have any proof that this is the case

I don't think anyone said it was the only revenue stream they have. I would bet they have many revenue stream that do not spring directly from players. Looking at the prices it;s clear that if you want to mix and match an entire suit that is not cheap. That cost can be calculated in real money and multiplied by the number of available Mechs parts types for sale. Do the math, estimate the number of players in a competitive tournament. How many tournaments a year. If this is a thing people will do, I believe there is no way it cannot be proven that is does earn money. Lots of it too.

Beemann, on March 11 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

Additionally, I learned that people buy parts not to customize their mech, but to show off to other people, or to trick them, and that this needless bit of complexity and confusion actually adds depth instead of just making the game needlessly confusing for spectators and newbies

Spectators see cool MEchs gunning each other down in explosions. Unless they are players themselves they do not see loadout or weapon types or appreciate the skill of killstreaks. It all looks so good there is too much going on. Experienced players should be ashamed to say they need help with What Mech they are facing and trying to ban the customisation of body parts to keep everything neat and tidy or under some pretense it will be confusing to viewers_ It shows that you are deep inside and need to step back and look form the outside for a few minutes. A "Pro player" sees things the Spectators do not. Its the same with anything - especially sports.

Don't Choke Hawken Originality. We have had Boring looking Mech games. Let it Be Hawken!

Beemann, on March 11 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

Clearly the answer is to add another smudgy bit to the cockpit that you'll have to read right in the middle of a fight instead of just being sensible about cosmetic options

...to Further clog up the UI and Dumb down the game. An experienced Pilot should not be worried by such things. Every decent player I have found has not been complaining about this or saying, "I wish I knew what loadout that mech had" everytime he rounded a corner to take down a "red blip"

because that is all you see. A red blip. How can you expect to see more. We already have tooltips......

This is why i say stuff like this dumbs down the game. You aren't removing a mechanic that allows people to trol in the "wrong suits" for a loadout. You are preventing Pilots from learning basic skills like Identifying the enemies weaponry.

This is one step away from saying. "no Prestige, no level 4 unlock, Standard Primary only - in eSports" to make it easier!

[SilentJacket]

and then fuzzy bunny!
E: wut, N azie is censored_

Edited by SilentJacket, March 11 2013 - 09:50 PM.

[Tomino_sama]

SilentJacket, on March 11 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

I'd just like to point out that this argument is getting nowhere fast...

well I don't know what an epeen is but it sounded funny to me lol plus i never like it when people point for point quote row me.

Plus It's my 30th an so I been up all night so I'm having a great time, with these important issues