369 replies to this topic

[AsianJoyKiller]

Tomino_sama, on March 11 2013 - 09:31 PM, said:

Tell me how I become a better SS by fitting a Fred head. I have. I am no better through this. I still get the same kills and deaths.
What_ This makes no sense.
At no point in time has anyone claimed that using a different chassis somehow magically increases your skills.
Please, please, pleeeaaase go back over the thread and read what's being said.

Its nothing more than wearing a skin, if anything it makes people seek you out more as you look funny with the wrong loadout. Also If I am firing my Sabot I am not Firing my TOW. That is immediatly obvious to anyone who has played more than a few hours in this game.
You're not thinking about what happens up to that point.

Imagine you spot a Fred at midrange and you cross open ground to attack it because you figure it can't do much to you at that range. Only, it's actually an SS and now that you left cover you just got nailed with Power Shot.
Imagine you boost up to a SS from behind, with the plan to exploit it's CQC weakness. Except it's actually a Raider, and now you're right in it's sweet spot.
Imagine that you're in a team fight around the AA, and there's several B-Classes using the same body. In that chaos, are you actually going to be able to keep track of who's playing what and where they are_

The advantage comes before the firing starts or in less than idea situations, and this advantage isn't gained through skill.

It's not a distrction it causes no confusion so I say it does not affect gameplay. you arguement supports P2W accusations by proxy, had you thought of that_ Meteor only body parts that give an advantage in game_ Please you sound more like the troll here than I do AJK.
Again, I'm asking you to look through the thread and read carefully.
I'm not the only one claiming it gives an advantage. There are people on both sides of the debate saying that it gives an advantage, and several of them change chassis on purpose to take advantage of this.

And no, by my understanding of Pay2Win, I am not saying it's a P2W feature, but it does provide an advantage that can only be gained through real world currency.

I saw that part. That means that servers would exist where I cannot enter without stripping off all my customisations that make my mech mine.
Read it again.
Your summery is wrong, leading me to believe you don't actually understand what is being proposed.

As I said earlier It's better to wait as Hawken has a lot in store for us yet.
We are beta testers. We should be proactive, not just reactive.

The Artistic aesthetic of Hawken includes these customisation features in the Lore. eSports will feature good players, at least in the semi finals and finals anyway Point is you have everyone running Grey mechs, the spectators don't know so much about Hawken like you do. I come from a background in Extreme Sports. If people see a person do a backflip over a big jump they are tens time smore impressed than if a guy slides down a Rail in a technically more impressive way. Although the latter requires skill that the people in the community understand to be better, the public regards the former to be the winning Trick. With computer games it's easy to become engrossed in a subject and lose focus of what the casual viewer would see. If all the mech look the same, iust would look like ... a generic fps with mech skins on ... <<-- that was a description of hawken used by a MWOL lover. With the customisation options it becomes a celebration of Mecha references and an expression of the Pilots tastes.
Your analogy with the bike/skate tricks doesn't apply hear.
The backflip would be like launching a Raider that charges in and multikills several damage enemies, a big splashy event with a "WOW" factor. But the technically more impressive event would be like the Infiltrator who whittled down the enemies and set them up to be killed by that Raider.


For the analogy to work, you would have to be equating Chassis to something like the T-Shirt a skater is wearing. An Ollie doesn't magically become more interesting because someone is wearing a T-Shirt with a badass skull on it. A 360 heelflip doesn't become less interesting because a guy is wearing a plain white T-Shirt. Even if you have a guy wearing an Iron Man costume snowboarding a hill doing a few minor grabs and grinds, it's going to be less interesting that a guy who's snowboarding while pulling off impressive tricks.

Also, another reason I'm convinced you're not really paying attention to what I've said is the fact that you're reacting as if I said "Option to turn of ALL cosmetics", when I specified "chassis". You'd still be allowed to having paint jobs, struts, legs, boosters, taunts and drones.

First off. LAtin is a dead language and I don't think it a proper use in this regard. Secondly, What is the epeen of which you speak. I am 30 and don't know much about this One Direction Lark_ Maybe you can use some English to dumb it down for me a litte
If you don't recognize that using a Latin term is proper in this context, maybe you shouldn't be commenting on whether or not it's a proper time to use Latin...
An "Ad hominem" is an argument where the attack is against made against the person, rather than the points they've made. Saying things like "get some skill" as a way to discredit an argument is logically fallacious.
You're basically trying to discredit my point by saying "you're bad so your opinion is invalid" without addressing any of the points I've made.

Also, epeen is slang for "skill".

Essentially I dont think that your team would Win any harder if you were up against a team of Head swappers. So this discussion is moot.

I asked for evidence that head swapping provides a real advantage. Unless you are trolling newbies, where you would win just as hard anyway, I say there is no provable advantage of "looking a bit different" to the next target. ALL mechs are a threat regardless of Loadout. This is a fuss over nothing man

Again, you're ignoring the many posts (not just this thread, but all over the forum) that are testament to the claim that Chassis swapping provides an advantage. These posts are made by people of all different skill levels.
So no, the discussion is not moot.

Once you finish reading this reply I hope you have been satisfied with the proof that you need. As Body Parts are Meteor only and I know I personally have purchased a lot of parts, imagine this scenario.

"I am an MLG progamer. I want to join Hawken eSports. Body parts and Skins are banned in all the Elite comps. I never pay any money for Meteor. "

The eSports boom hits Hawken. now 80% are eSports players.

As you can see in this scneario that you advocate, the game is then paid for by the 20% that DO buy meteor points. So do you want to pay for all that expanded server capability. They way you seem to want it the Balance would be tipped.
A hypothetical scenario that you put together without any sort of data that backs up the claims you make is not proof. I'm don't think it even qualifies as anecdotal evidence.

I know this seems condescending, but you honestly seem to be unclear on what proof is, so here's the definiton.

Quote

Proof
Evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement

Quote

Evidence
The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid

I'm asking you to provide reliable data that this would have any effect on the game's profits, never mind the huge blow that you've claimed it would.

[SmithofLie]

I think we have mudded the waters between two distinct problems. One is having custom chasis at all, other is that chasis making mech look like another mech in game.

Part of good design in the game is that all of its elements are clear. It is not question of skill or preference. Just like in writing - using too much of overly "poetic" and uncommon words results in so called purple prose, where the form interferes with substance. In games you it is similar - you want your skill cap and depth delivered through substance, not through form.

Engages in Hawken are often chaotic, long distance mess. Trying to see what weapon has the guy 100 meters away, jumping around and dodging all the time is not practical way of recognizing what is happening around. This is the reason why distinct and easily recognizable silhoutte is important part of mech's design if we are to consider game well designed. As I said before, there is no skill involved in guessing wheather enemy is using default chasis or not. Guesswork is never a skill.

You know the game of 3 cups, right_ The one where you point the cup with object underneath after host shuffled them. Now consider two variants of the game. In one, the standard one, host shows you where the object (most often ball) is and then switches the cups around. Second is the cups are already shuffled, ball is under one of them but you were not witness to where it started nor the shuffle. Now, riddle me this, which variant involves luck and which involves skill_ Why, by the logic presented here by some the second variant involves skill. Only a wuss would need to see the whole process to determine where the ball is, true man don't need no stinking motion vision to try and follow the cup as it is shuffled!

Facetious metaphores aside, there should be no discussion about the gameplay ramifications of custom chasis. Guessing what your opponent is playing right now is not the skill, it is luck.

The completly seperate issue is the one of chasis customization in general. It still can be implemented, but not in current shape. Since Raider is new black and all the rage in the forums lately let's take it as our example. You see Raider and from afar and in motion you know what it is and what it does. Cause you have learned and gathered knowledge. In current custoization though it can look like Bruiser or Assault or Fred. And thus, unless in perfect circumstances where you see his weapons loadout clearly, it makes your abilities less valuable. But let's just imagine it has 4 variants, each of them distinctly Raider, but visually different enough to appeal to customization fans. And done! Wheather it is Raider mk I, Raider mk II or whatever other Raider variant, you instantly see what you are up against.

And thus the want for innovation, indivisualization and ability to monetize are saved. But again, I already know the answer to my post. There will be no logical argument, instead I will be called fuzzy bunny or told to "get... some... f***n'... skill...". Well, please do not bother with those, since I have preemptive answer to those wanting to post in this manner: "get... some... reasoning ability...".

Also, deceptive chasis switch, aviable only for MC and not HC adds element of pay to win to the game. And that is never a healthy addition in F2P model games.

Smith of Lie signing out with preching to the choir, those who considered arguments considered them, those who just want to boast how they are so skillful won't consider them, so further discussion will be pointless. Have fun shouting at each other guys.

Edited by SmithofLie, March 12 2013 - 12:06 AM.

[Gagzila]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 11 2013 - 11:45 PM, said:

And no, by my understanding of Pay2Win, I am not saying it's a P2W feature, but it does provide an advantage that can only be gained through real world currency.

Nice contradiction there, since that is the definition of P2W. Your understanding must be different to everybody else's.

AsianJoyKiller, on March 11 2013 - 11:45 PM, said:

Also, epeen is slang for "skill".

I tried to correct you on this but apparently that part of the human anatomy isn't allowed to be uttered around here (which I think is pretty silly) so please go google "epeen" as it is NOT slang for "skill".

I voted "No" because I wouldn't "like" this option. But I've got nothing against having a server side option for those that want to play Hawken this way, which as you know we need to wait for the player base to grow somewhat more than it is now

Although, you would be "excluding" me since it would in part ruin my immersion and that's something I want when I play Hawken...but that's ok as I can just play in other servers with forced screen shake

Cheers,

Gagzila


**MODERATOR NOTE- PLEASE REFRAIN FROM POSTING EXTERNAL LINKS AND TRYING TO AVOID LANGUAGE FILTER*******

Edited by Gagzila, March 12 2013 - 02:43 PM.
remove link and language avoiding filter

[AsianJoyKiller]

Gagzila, on March 12 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

Nice contradiction there, since that is the definition of P2W. Your understanding must be different to everybody else's.

If it were P2W, then it would mean the advantage gained could not be easily overcome. Chassis swapping can give you an edge, but it does not guarantee victory.

Gagzila, on March 12 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

Although, you would be "excluding" me since it would in part ruin my immersion and that's something I want when I play Hawken.

There's no exclusion.
The choice of whether or not this would affect you is entirely up to you.

[Gagzila]

I think the obvious mistake the devs made was allowing the cross use of other mech's chassis parts. If they had only made a variety of parts specific to each mech then it would avoid the possible view of it being P2W and the issues you raise with not knowing what class of mech you are actually facing.

But then that would require a significant increase in the time and money to create all the extra mech specific parts, meaning at this stage they would only have had around 1/4 or less of the options currently available, maybe even none at all yet since all interchangeable parts are another mech's default chassis (bar the booster jets and repair bots). Plus it makes sense if you put yourself into the fictional world of Hawken as a mechanic or pilot designing mechs, to try and gain the upper hand against your foes through such use of misleading tactics.

AsianJoyKiller, on March 12 2013 - 01:31 AM, said:

If it were P2W, then it would mean the advantage gained could not be easily overcome. Chassis swapping can give you an edge, but it does not guarantee victory.

That's got nothing to do with P2W. P2W means as simply as you put it in your own post - the ability to gain an advantage over other players that isn't accessible except via real world money.

AsianJoyKiller, on March 12 2013 - 01:31 AM, said:

There's no exclusion.
The choice of whether or not this would affect you is entirely up to you.

My point exactly - transfer this to the forced camera shake server side option argument and your journey to enlightened side of this obvious fact is complete

Cheers,

Gagzila

Edited by Gagzila, March 12 2013 - 01:44 AM.

[Beemann]

Except Asian never said it should be a server side option, you did
So you're criticizing Asian based on something you stated that he never agreed with
It's completely in line with his stance on camera shake

Also, pay to win DOES actually carry the implication of an advantage that isn't easy or trivial to overcome. The distinction he makes between p2w and pay-for-power is done to remove the overly defensive backlash that normally comes with it, and to specify the degree of advantage gained. There are several instances of pay for power in this game that dont elevate it to the same status as pay to win titles, and that ought to be pointed out in simple terms

[Akaon]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 11 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

Akaon, on March 11 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

So we let people pay for a new chassis so you can remove it. What's the point_ You can barely see your own mech, the whole idea is that others can see it.

You understand this is an option, and not everyone will use it, yes_
Plenty of people, myself included, would end up seeing your fancy paint and chassis, just not everyone.

I get what you're saying, but you pay for something that others can remove remove if they don't want to see it. Imagine if they added this option in League of Legends, there would be Riots. (pun intended)

AsianJoyKiller, on March 11 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

SilentJacket, on March 11 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

no I didn't want to go into hard data, because I really do have better ways to spend my time, which is why I tried not to bring it up.

I'm serious though, is it such a huge issue that it would warrant an entire re-coding of the way the game renders objects_

You, or rather people on your side of the argument, have made the claim that this function would hurt profits from cosmetics.
I'd like to see proof that backs this claim.

Can you prove it won't_ It's impossible to prove this either way.

[ScHizNiK]

<sub>With the way the Unreal engine works with model instancing this could actually be a decent way to optimise the game for lower end systems.

Idea may be growing on me.
See really the issue of class silhouette</sub> is a small one to me, but the ability to push more low end computers into the gaming bracket is priceless.

Edited by ScHizNiK, March 12 2013 - 04:54 AM.

[dEd101]

I voted yes but only for competetive or ranked matches of some sort. My reasoning is that in those games the split second it take you to take a look at the guns and determine the mech would have an impact. You would end up with entire teams with all their mechs looking exactly the same.

e.g. all b class as freds, all as infil and all c as rocketeers. All with the same paint jobs. I doubt even the most skilled players would be able to discern the different mechs from each other under those conditions.

[davek1979]

I am a bit concerned people don't actually understand what this proposal is about. And I'm absolutely sure some of the people voting NO and shouting around here with mighty voices did not actually read through this thread properly.
Their logic is sound, their opinion is valued but ultimately provides no real contribution to this thread as they DID NOT UNDERSTAND THE BLOODY POINT! Or from what I gathered maybe even 2 BLOODY POINTS.

THE 2 BLOODY POINTS:

PROPOSAL 1: This switch would be SUBJECTIVE. Only the ones who flip it on would be affected. Only the ones who flip it on would see all the other mechs in their default skin. The ones who choose not to flip it on would see everyone clad in whatever fuzzy bunny uber-camo uber-thrusters uber-skin they chose to pay for.

PROPOSAL 2: This switch would be server-side. Everyone on the server would be forced to see everyone else in their default skin, overriding the (possible) player's ingame switch.

GOT IT _ NOW THAT YOU UNDERSTOOD THE POINT, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO POST IN THIS THREAD. THANK YOU SO MUCH.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Akaon, on March 12 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

I get what you're saying, but you pay for something that others can remove remove if they don't want to see it. Imagine if they added this option in League of Legends, there would be Riots. (pun intended)

On the other hand, LoL champions are designed so they have identifiable characteristics

Quote

Can you prove it won't_ It's impossible to prove this either way.

Except I at least provided example of another similar game where it worked, and basic logic tells us that since this is completely optional and there are plenty of people prefer immersion options, that the chance someone will see your mech as you customized it is entirely likely.
I mean, just look at the number of people for and against this (not votes, but people who've actually explained their position and shown they understand the idea). It's roughly equal. If you think about it as people for would us the option, and people against wouldn't, that means in any given match you'll likely have about 1/2 the people to check out your swag.

[AsianJoyKiller]

davek1979, on March 12 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

PROPOSAL 1: This switch would be SUBJECTIVE. Only the ones who flip it on would be affected. Only the ones who flip it on would see all the other mechs in their default skin. The ones who choose not to flip it on would see everyone clad in whatever fuzzy bunny uber-camo uber-thrusters uber-skin they chose to pay for.

This is the only point I've proposed.
It would be clientside and only affect the person who turned it on.
It's also important to note that this would only affect the CHASSIS. Paint jobs, limbs, thrusters, drones, etc. would all be left as they are and completely visible.

So even if you have the option turned on, a checkered-pink Sharpshooter with the dragon thrusters and quad drone, will still show off your paint and other nifty stuff, just not your Fred chassis.

[davek1979]

Well the word server-side has been mentioned a couple of times around here, so I added it there, but thanks for the correction.

[Akaon]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 12 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

Akaon, on March 12 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

I get what you're saying, but you pay for something that others can remove remove if they don't want to see it. Imagine if they added this option in League of Legends, there would be Riots. (pun intended)

On the other hand, LoL champions are designed so they have identifiable characteristics

Quote

Can you prove it won't_ It's impossible to prove this either way.

Except I at least provided example of another similar game where it worked, and basic logic tells us that since this is completely optional and there are plenty of people prefer immersion options, that the chance someone will see your mech as you customized it is entirely likely.
I mean, just look at the number of people for and against this (not votes, but people who've actually explained their position and shown they understand the idea). It's roughly equal. If you think about it as people for would us the option, and people against wouldn't, that means in any given match you'll likely have about 1/2 the people to check out your swag.

After not having played LoL for a while, the large amount of skins can become confusing, so a similar effect can be found here. Nonetheless, both are about removing customization. (Something nobody should want)

My basic logic tells me this is a horrible idea. I guess that's why basic logic makes a very poor argument: everybody has a different logic.

[ShadowWarg]

Is this situation of mistaking classes actually an "issue" for a majority for hawken players and the community, or is it a small group_ How many vets, intermediate and novices players think this is a problem and which group thinks it is more of an issue than the other groups_

[PlagueDoctor]

@tibbers, I don't think learning "new" symbols would be that difficult, and I don't think it would clutter the screen if done correctly. Just make the symbol of the mechs ability. Look at guy, see symbol, know what mech it is. It doesn't need to be complicated like making them letters, and it definitely doesn't need to be as complicated as to add an option that renders all mechs as vanilla.

Worst case scenario, nothing happens, we just standardize comp play to use vanilla chassis. Its not that big of a deal

E: I'm not opposing AJK's idea, I think it would work. I just think there can be a simpler solution to the problem.

Edited by PlagueDoctor, March 12 2013 - 08:24 AM.

[karnak]

I think that the upper chassis should be locked by default in order to give the same experience to everybody and not just to those who will activate the option.

I didn't vote because there isn't this option, but the deception of the upper chassis switch is an issue for me too (a small one, but still an issue).

[CCCM89]

why would you care what other player's chassis look like_  if they want to pay money to make their raider look like a recruit jsut to f*** with your head, let them.
I try not to judge a mech by it's appearance.  I just shoot the hell out of it.

[Beefsweat]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 11 2013 - 11:45 PM, said:

A hypothetical scenario that you put together without any sort of data that backs up the claims you make is not proof. I'm don't think it even qualifies as anecdotal evidence.

AsianJoyKiller, on March 11 2013 - 11:45 PM, said:

Imagine you spot a Fred at midrange and you cross open ground to attack it because you figure it can't do much to you at that range. Only, it's actually an SS and now that you left cover you just got nailed with Power Shot.
Imagine you boost up to a SS from behind, with the plan to exploit it's CQC weakness. Except it's actually a Raider, and now you're right in it's sweet spot. Imagine that you're in a team fight around the AA, and there's several B-Classes using the same body. In that chaos, are you actually going to be able to keep track of who's playing what and where they are_ The advantage comes before the firing starts or in less than idea situations, and this advantage isn't gained through skill.

How fitting.

Edited by Beefsweat, March 12 2013 - 11:15 AM.

[davek1979]

Beefsweat, on March 12 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

How fitting.

Except Tomino was pulling numbers out of his bunny and Asian was talking about a scenario that is happening all around right now.