369 replies to this topic

[Umbre]

Please identify the weapons that all of these mechs are using.

Graphical Settings:
1920 x 1080
Ultra/Ultra

Edited by Umbre, March 17 2013 - 05:54 AM.

[cubicDevourer]

I'd like to give my thoughts on this subject, if I may.

Being able to recognize an enemy by silhouette alone in a class-based game is crucial. Let's take a look at two other class-based games, Team Fortress 2 and League of Legends. In interviews with the character design team over at Riot Games, the developers behind League of Legends, they have stated that each character needs to be instantly recognized in the heat of the moment. They achieve this by making each character incredibly unique, not only stylistically but with their silhouette as well. You're never gonna mistake Mundo for Cho'Gath even though they're both giant tanks.

Let's move on to Team Fortress 2. I'll just let this quote from the developer commentary speak for itself.
"[Ariel Diaz] Characters are the most important piece of art in a multiplayer game, so that is where we spent most of our effort. We developed a read hierarchy for player models, prioritizing the information that players needed to be able to read merely by looking at the model. Our hierarchy was this: first, what team they're on, second, what class they're playing, and third, what weapon they're wielding."
Let's compare this hierarchy to Hawken.

First, team readability. Hawken achieves this quite well. You have names above teammates and red boxes around enemies. How did Valve do it_ "Team readability was addressed by adopting an overall color palette for each team, picking warm colors for RED and cool colors for BLU." Fair enough.

Let's take a look at the second one, class readability. If a person is using the default model, this is easily done. However, once a person uses an alternate chassis, this is thrown out the window entirely. The silhouette gets changed so drastically through this that the only way to recognize a class is through their weapons, but we'll touch on that in a second. What did Valve do_ "Class readability was addressed through the character's silhouette. Unique silhouette and animation shapes are more identifiable at far distances, and across a broader range of light levels, than any amount of other visual detail on the model." This speaks for itself. The silhouette is the greatest way to identify a class at any range or light level. To be fair, all the models are very unique and recognizable at any range, but of course, the silhouette can be changed. Since it can, it basically means nothing because anyone could've swapped out their scout model for a berserker or reaper model, which means there's no way to identify a class unless you look at their weapons. This could be solved to a degree with unique animations, but only to a degree.

Third one. Weapon readability. Since any single mech might have had their chassis swapped out, this is the only sure fire way to know what class the enemy mech is. Let's see what Valve did. "Finally, the weapon was highlighted through the textures. The areas of highest contrast, which attracts player's eyes, are all focused around the chest area of our character models, right where they hold their weapon. In addition, the subtle gradient from darkness around the character's feet, to the bright areas around the chest, also helps draw the player's eyes to the weapons." The weapons for Hawken definitely look unique, through their silhouettes, but their colors and textures tend to blend into the surroundings. This is due to Hawken's more monochromatic color design as opposed to Team Fortress 2's more vibrant, colorful design. As for the silhouettes, I don't know about you guys, but I tend to have a hard time making out the weapons on enemies from anywhere between medium to long range. The mass of metal and mechs tends to blend into itself. This varies from map to map of course, the worst offender being Origin imo. It's not impossible to identify weapons though and one can easily become accustomed to this, but I see it as needless complication for the sake of giving a player more cosmetic options. But, as Umbre just pointed out, it highly depends but which way they're facing as well. They are also explosions and effects and all visual information gets very muddled. So when you try to look at something as hard to read as a mech's weapons, all bets can be off. Again, it's not impossible but, well...

So, does changing your chassis give you an unfair advantage_ Well... Imagine if you were playing TF2. You're a spy and you see a sniper walking with his back turned. Easy target. Oops he turns around and it turns out he's holding a flamethrower. He's a pyro and now you're on fire and dead. What will this make you do_ In Hawken, it will make you take that extra 5 seconds to squint and look at their weapons for the rest of the time that player is on that server. It can catch a person off guard, but once you're up close and fighting, you'll know what class your enemy is, but this is dumb. You should know what class your enemy is immediately so you know what actions to take. It's not super game changing. It's not going to make you play better. It's not going to make you deal more damage, but it is going to fool your enemies. Maybe just once, maybe every time, but it's still deception.

That's my two cents.

EDIT: Oh, right. I never actually responded to the post's question. Yes, I would like an option. Although by doing this, some people will be less incentivized to buy alternate chassis knowing people can just turn that off.

Edited by cubicDevourer, March 17 2013 - 07:17 AM.

[Dread_Lord_Pitr]

@cubicDevourer : Regarding TF2 :



Argument out the window.
And you also often can't distinguish what weapons anyone is carrying; can you tell Natasha apart from a Heavy's regular Minigun, visually _
NO.
So is this relevant _
NO.

Edited by Dread_Lord_Pitr, March 17 2013 - 08:01 AM.

[Tomino_sama]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 17 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

the only real implication was that you could gain small advantage that added needless complexity for money

The above is a valid definition of Pay to Win. I did not coin that definition first - I abbreviated yours

AsianJoyKiller, on March 17 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

Guess what_
Winning debates that have equally valid points (and even sometimes when the points aren’t equally valid) often requires your side of the argument to be the popular one.

Also, many of the counter points have been answered. However, you have chosen to ignore that on several occasions.

First I was referring to a popularity contest not a debating contest. Your chose speaks volumes alone. My point is, to break it down into chewable pieces for you, You and Beemann are actively pushing for this, despite lack of support. You are a popular Character here so instead of campaigning like you have been, calling everyone else ignorant etc. So that is how it is a popularity contest. In other words, despite the popularity you enjoy, everyone didn't automatically vote your way. You seem upset that so many of us in this thread do not agree, yet you fight back relentlessly.
I could give you credit for sticking to your Guns, but you are coming off Stubborn now.

Also. Where did you answer any points_ You dismissed them as irrelevant or told people to go get educated first_

AsianJoyKiller, on March 17 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

Feel free to prove me wrong by identifying the mechs and the weapons they are using in the test I provided.

Feel free to Prove your Theory first. I came in here and asked you to provide proof. All you did was the minimum and a very unsafe test too. You must know about the fairness of experiments_ well yours did not meet that definition. Nice attempt at propaganda to suit your theory though.

In the end I actually provide Live Video from gameplay illustrating the Pointlessness of identifying mechs Visually

You say I missed the point becasue "it starts before any rounds are fired"

USE TAB THEN - IT'S SO EASY


To be honest AJK you are just patronising everyone here that doesn't agree with you, it's beyond belief. Why should everyone automatically agree with you_

I say if you are fooled by this mechanic , then you are easily fooled and need to adapt to the mechanic

Edited by Tomino_sama, March 17 2013 - 08:34 AM.

[Alastor_Crow]

Changing chassis is OP, please nerf.

[cubicDevourer]

Dread_Lord_Pitr, on March 17 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

@cubicDevourer : Regarding TF2 :



Argument out the window.
And you also often can't distinguish what weapons anyone is carrying; can you tell Natasha apart from a Heavy's regular Minigun, visually _
NO.
So is this relevant _
NO.

I don't understand the screenshot. It's about model recognizability and what comes with it. If you saw a soldier backstab someone and cloak away, you wouldn't know what to think. If you saw a medic building sentries, you would be confused for a second.

As for the differences between the natasha and the minigun, you already know it's a heavy and he's carrying a minigun. You can see the silhouette of said minigun. You look for a tiny bit longer, you would see the distinct black ammo... thing and ammo belt coming out of it. Image.  Compared to the stock one, it's visually different. Not it's SUPER immediate, but immediate enough. Still more immediate than weapons in Hawken. You can tell if he's holding that or a shotgun.

Oh right. Relevance. It's relevant because in Hawken, you can't easily tell what weapon a mech has. In TF2, you can easily tell. I'm making a comparison, you see.

Edited by cubicDevourer, March 17 2013 - 08:31 AM.

[Tomino_sama]

Keep Staring AJK

[Tomino_sama]

"I hate when I died because I am easily confused"


HEAD swapping gives an advantage

OBVIOUSLY A STRAWMAN



all points countered by many other people

ignored.

Forgot this was AJK's Personal Blog

Edited by Tomino_sama, March 17 2013 - 08:52 AM.

[Tomino_sama]

Umbre, on March 17 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

Please identify the weapons that all of these mechs are using.

I would but. I rely on Sound and visual cues. or the speed of dots on the radar. If a Still was a good test then Humans would only look at 1FPS, or blink at such a high frequency that Stills would be what we see in game. Within second of all the mechs being destroyed more may appear quickly, from all angles, this makes Visual Identification useless.

I only need to know what Class I am up against. This doesn't mean I win all the time, heck no. There are many situations where you are at such a disadvantage that you cannot win. For those times there is Sportsmanship.

I like winning, but in order for others to Win I must occasionally lose

So facing an opponent I am not requiring that I know what he has. Granted when I see a Scout Cloak I chuckle to myself, as i know he has no Fuel Perk.

Identify using the weapons (Audible/visual effects)
Use a process of elimination to determine the Mech's Type.


If you play ANY competitive FPS the weapons have different sounds, thats how you tell what people have before engaging, Also the same reason Companies like Turtle Beach are so successful with their Headsets.

In fact if you are serious about FPS (ie. consider yourself somewhat skilled) and don't have a headset, go get one, because its the only excuse I can accept from a Good Hawken Pilot who still thinks they can't tell the difference between the sound of AR and Point D

FML

although your pictures are significantly better than AJK's and he was using Ultra/Ultra 1920x1080 :_

I just don't see the need for Hawken to be Template happy. It dumbs down the game for those who already play accepting this mechanic. Also it's quite embarrassing to see such well known members of the Forum supporting an issue that is not skill related. It only serves to temporarily confuse you, and even then the effect is very weak.

If you are playing Hawken Chess and playing "50 moves ahead" then good luck when all the new mechs come as you will be sat there going "oh, hm, oh, no, hm, oh, grrrr" getting frustrated.



Workarounds as suggested, with no response from AJK:

HEADS available for HC
Mech types visible on Red Square (tooltip)
Private server option

anything else is needless QQ.
I must go now, other communities need me.

Good Luck with eSports AJK et al!

[draco7891]

Umbre, on March 17 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

Please identify the weapons that all of these mechs are using.

Ooo, can I take a for-fun swing at it_

1. Sharpshooter, B-class, Res upper. Sabot and either AM-SAR or Slug, will be evident in next frame when primary is out of shadow.

2. Spree upper, A-class, potentially Reaper. Unknown weapons (someone doesn't use Vsync: tearing evident on primary weapon). Can see name, would have class memorized.

3.  Bruiser, B-class, Hiefram upper. Hellfires and probably Vulcan. I say Vulcan because not many min/maxers who play with SMC will stand bold-face in the choke like that, so likely a newer player.

4. Assault/CR-T, B-class, Res upper. TOW and Assault Rifle. Can see the front loop of the AR.

5. Left to right: Assault/CR-T (likely CR-T), B-class, Fred upper: TOW and SMC. Sharpshooter, B-class, Res upper: Sabot and Slug. And Poetess is in the corner, on fire, practicing her street-fighting skills. Could be turreted Brawler, would have from scoreboard.

6. Rocketeer, C-class, Hepten upper. Hellfires and Seeker.

7. Raider, B-class, Hiefram upper. This one's not fair, because the primary will be uncovered in next frame when you move crosshair. Regardless, since it appears the Corsair is in MIRV, it's probably not a totally new player to the class, and he's likely to be using the Bolt.

8. Rocketeer, C-class, Domoff upper. Hellfires and EOC. My most favoritest mech ever.

9. A-class, Boot upper. Toughie, maybe a GL I see there. Clearly though this isn't taken prior to engagement since the Det is on cooldown and the mech's at half-health so you'd likely already know what weapons you were facing. It also looks like the foe is running for his little A-class life from the 2v1 about to happen.

Draco

Edit: on 7, since the Bruiser's on trial, could also be trial Bruiser with Vulcan. Would have from scoreboard, or the next frame (hard to see through film grain when it's not in motion).

Edited by draco7891, March 17 2013 - 09:42 AM.

[Dread_Lord_Pitr]

cubicDevourer, on March 17 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

I don't understand the screenshot.

Spy about to backstab the poor Engi...
How much more obvious does it need to be _

cubicDevourer, on March 17 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

It's about model recognizability and what comes with it.

Spy = model recognizability gone because he can be anything, and to top it off he'll look like a teammate.
Since Hawken doesn't have a fully comparable class, his presence in TF2 makes it a poor comparison.

cubicDevourer, on March 17 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

If you saw a soldier backstab someone and cloak away, you wouldn't know what to think. If you saw a medic building sentries, you would be confused for a second.

I wouldn't, because if TF2 had that the same sort of model system as Hawken i'd know not to rely so much on the visual cues.

cubicDevourer, on March 17 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

As for the differences between the natasha and the minigun, you already know it's a heavy and he's carrying a minigun. You can see the silhouette of said minigun. You look for a tiny bit longer, you would see the distinct black ammo... thing and ammo belt coming out of it. Image.  Compared to the stock one, it's visually different. Not it's SUPER immediate, but immediate enough.

Can you tell the difference in combat, at mid range, long range, or CQC in a frantic battle _
I doubt it.
Same as most games, by the time you've ID'd the weapon, most of the time you're viewing a killcam.

cubicDevourer, on March 17 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Still more immediate than weapons in Hawken. You can tell if he's holding that or a shotgun.

But the weapons system in TF2 = one weapon carried visually.
Again the comparison seems just plain wrong, as it cannot be visually compared to Hawken.

cubicDevourer, on March 17 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Oh right. Relevance. It's relevant because in Hawken, you can't easily tell what weapon a mech has. In TF2, you can easily tell. I'm making a comparison, you see.

Still not entirely true; you can discern primary from secondary in TF2, but even then it's hard to tell which gun it is exactly, until you get close enough to get shot in the face with it.
And again, Hawken cannot be visually compared to TF2, if just for the Spy, or the Red vs Blue thing.

[Umbre]

draco7891, on March 17 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

Umbre, on March 17 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

Please identify the weapons that all of these mechs are using.

Ooo, can I take a for-fun swing at it_

1. Sharpshooter, B-class, Res upper. Sabot and either AM-SAR or Slug, will be evident in next frame when primary is out of shadow. SS using an SA Hawkins.

2. Spree upper, A-class, potentially Reaper. Unknown weapons (someone doesn't use Vsync: tearing evident on primary weapon). Can see name, would have class memorized. Reaper using an RPR. Screen tearing does NOT work like that.

3.  Bruiser, B-class, Hiefram upper. Hellfires and probably Vulcan. I say Vulcan because not many min/maxers who play with SMC will stand bold-face in the choke like that, so likely a newer player.

4. Assault/CR-T, B-class, Res upper. TOW and Assault Rifle. SS.

5. Left to right: Assault/CR-T (likely CR-T), B-class, Fred upper: TOW and SMC. Sharpshooter, B-class, Res upper: Sabot and Slug. And Poetess is in the corner, on fire, practicing her street-fighting skills. Could be turreted Brawler, would have from scoreboard.

6. Rocketeer, C-class, Hepten upper. Hellfires and Seeker. Brawler.

7. Raider, B-class, Hiefram upper. This one's not fair, because the primary will be uncovered in next frame when you move crosshair. Regardless, since it appears the Corsair is in MIRV, it's probably not a totally new player to the class, and he's likely to be using the Bolt. Bruiser with an AR.

8. Rocketeer, C-class, Domoff upper. Hellfires and EOC. My most favoritest mech ever. Rocketeer with Seeker.

9. A-class, Boot upper. Toughie, maybe a GL I see there. Clearly though this isn't taken prior to engagement since the Det is on cooldown and the mech's at half-health so you'd likely already know what weapons you were facing. It also looks like the foe is running for his little A-class life from the 2v1 about to happen. Berserker armed with an AR. All players were instructed to ignore me actually, while I took screenshots. Didn't shoot at anyone unless it was necessary.

Draco

Edit: on 7, since the Bruiser's on trial, could also be trial Bruiser with Vulcan. Would have from scoreboard, or the next frame (hard to see through film grain when it's not in motion).

Bear in mind that you have all the time in the world to stare at these still-images. In-game, you have 1-2 seconds before they will notice you and fire. The whole point of being able to recognise the class, is to avoid a surprise alpha-strike where you wouldn't expect there to have been one.

[Alastor_Crow]

So..changing chassis is P2W now_

The first shot is a give away in case you were unable to see what class they're using. In a lot of cases, you can see their weapon type while they're engaged in a crossfire. From then on, you should at least be able to remember that X is using a different chassis for their mech. I change my chassis for cosmetic reasons only. If people get fooled by it, that's just a bonus and isn't really the game's fault.

[cubicDevourer]

@Dread_Lord_Pitr

I'm sorry, but you're missing the point. It's not about the little things in each game. It's not about there being a spy class in Hawken and comparing it to TF2's. It's about being able to clearly recognize a class and/or weapon. In Hawken, it is harder to do that due to muddled visuals and chassis swapping. In TF2, it's not. That is the comparison I am making. Valve made a conscious effort to make sure you, the player, could as easily as possible, at a moment's notice, tell what other classes other players were and what weapons they were using. Adhesive did not make that extra effort, which is why you are not able to tell with 100% certainty what class a mech is until you're fighting them or very very close to, which is kinda bull. That causes some miscommunication between the player and the game which is a BAD THING in ANY GAME. You never want the player to have one thing confused with another. THAT is the point I am trying to make. Granted, in a game like Hawken where damn near every class is the killing one, it's more a matter of how to avoid said killing than targeting the medic. The comparison isn't 100% accurate. It's not meant to be. There's one thing I wish to point out though.

Dread_Lord_Pitr, on March 17 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

cubicDevourer, on March 17 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Still more immediate than weapons in Hawken. You can tell if he's holding that or a shotgun.

But the weapons system in TF2 = one weapon carried visually.
Again the comparison seems just plain wrong, as it cannot be visually compared to Hawken.

Yes. Yes it can. Whether it be one weapon or two, you easily can tell what they are using, whether it be a sniper or a rocket launcher, which is the most important thing in Hawken. Again, THAT is the point I'm trying to make. Readability in Hawken is damn near atrocious and needs to be improved. If Adhesive wants to keep chassis swapping, fine. As long as they improve the readability of weapons so people can identify classes easier.

Edited by cubicDevourer, March 17 2013 - 10:34 AM.

[Tomino_sama]

Alastor_Crow, on March 17 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

So..changing chassis is P2W now_

The first shot is a give away in case you were unable to see what class they're using. In a lot of cases, you can see their weapon type while they're engaged in a crossfire. From then on, you should at least be able to remember that X is using a different chassis for their mech. I change my chassis for cosmetic reasons only. If people get fooled by it, that's just a bonus and isn't really the game's fault.

^ this

another well thought out point.

I have no trouble recognising classes or determining loadouts. You cannot know what primary he is using until he fires anyway so it's a guess between three options across all the mechs. All this is pointless. Unless you are calling for that to be obvious, and reducing the skill required to play, creating more Pubstomps for you i guess.

All this talk about making it obvious from looking is devoid of Skill.

What do you want different coloured Flags sticking out of weapons so its easy to see. Come on_

Edited by Tomino_sama, March 17 2013 - 10:39 AM.

[MasterFALE]

Umbre, on March 17 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

Please identify the weapons that all of these mechs are using.

Graphical Settings:
1920 x 1080
Ultra/Ultra

Pic 1)

Xarkiss: Sharpshooter; Sabot and (guessing as the primary is obscured by the torso) slug

Pic 2)

Verkil: Reaper; KE-Sabot and AM-SAR

Pic 3)

Verkil: Undefined sillouette;

assuming Reaper with KE-Sabot and AM-SAR based on previous photo and stationary poise

Pic 4)

ZeuS_KrD: Sharpshooter Chassis and limb set; Probably armed as a Sharpshooter with Sabot and Slug.

-> Based off 'gun' right arm, no other B-class has as slim a secondary, following from that the left arm lacks a side-plate removing the possibility of a SA-Hawkins.

Pic 5)

ShizNit: CRT; TOW and SMC

Poetess: C-Class_ Obscured by detonation.

TossCity: Sharpshooter; Slug and Sabot

Pic 6)

Brawler; stock (TOW and Flak)

Pic 7)

Bruiser; stock (HFM and Point-D Vulcan)

Pic 8)

DARKMIST77: Rocketeer; stock (HFM and Seeker)

Pic 9)

Infiltrator; weapons obscured by 'boost forward' stance and shadow; GL known to be mounted, primary firepower will be short-mid range

Though, it should be noted, positive ID of a target's chassis and exact loadout is almost never possible in any FPS or actual IRL engagement until you're standing over their smoking corpse, and often not even then (unless you're playing MechWarrior and get that delicious sensor package).

Bearing in mind that I'd only have split seconds in game to make the ID's, I might get more wrong or conversly I might get more right being able to see movement and experience weapons fire.

But, by all means move to get a server or some other optional method of minimizing uncertainty in the game. Since A) its a game and not RL and B ) it costs money, in a Free to Play, to chassis swap.


EDIT: Yeah, I got some wrong. Computer took a minute to post this so I didn't get all that to see before throwing it all up.

Edited by MasterFALE, March 17 2013 - 10:39 AM.

[OdinTheWise]

I think it is a moot point, the point of cosmetics is to show off, if you give the ability to block custom stuff it becomes pointless to show off.  Just deal with it people

[Tomino_sama]

cubicDevourer, on March 17 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

Readability in Hawken is damn near atrocious and needs to be improved. If Adhesive wants to keep chassis swapping, fine. As long as they improve the readability of weapons so people can identify classes easier.

Readability is fine. The information you ask to be squeezed into the UI is inconsequential to the Gameplay. Like I said before do you want every gun to be a different luminescant colour_

Honestly I like arcade games but this makes for the Fisher Price Hakwen edition.

[cubicDevourer]

Tomino_sama, on March 17 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

cubicDevourer, on March 17 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

Readability in Hawken is damn near atrocious and needs to be improved. If Adhesive wants to keep chassis swapping, fine. As long as they improve the readability of weapons so people can identify classes easier.

Readability is fine. The information you ask to be squeezed into the UI is inconsequential to the Gameplay. Like I said before do you want every gun to be a different luminescant colour_

Honestly I like arcade games but this makes for the Fisher Price Hakwen edition.

I never said anything about making the TOW neon green. I never said anything about UI. We're talking player models here, and when it comes to that, it is not fine. Not entirely bad, but certainly not fine. When you can make a certain class look like an entire another one, while not making sure you can identify said class through other means just as easily, it is not fine.

And I guess I should solidify my stance whether swapping out a chassis is P2W or not. It does give an advantage, but it is so slight. So so so so so slight. It's a very mild form of mind games basically and it's impact on the game is not enough to be declared P2W imo. However, it is annoying as hell something like this even has to be dealt with. Especially for new players, the people you want to attract and have stay around.

Edited by cubicDevourer, March 17 2013 - 10:53 AM.

[Timber_Wolf]

Alastor_Crow, on March 17 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

So..changing chassis is P2W now_

The first shot is a give away in case you were unable to see what class they're using. In a lot of cases, you can see their weapon type while they're engaged in a crossfire. From then on, you should at least be able to remember that X is using a different chassis for their mech. I change my chassis for cosmetic reasons only. If people get fooled by it, that's just a bonus and isn't really the game's fault.

Until you engage expecting a CRT and get hit with 210 damage EOC, that first shot matters a lot.
If they're not engaged in fighting someone else_
What if they switch mechs in the middle of a fight_  What if they own multiple of the same mech_
If they get fooled buy it, you bought power.  If you're a free player, you can't have the option of attempting to fool someone.

If I see a CRT, I engage it like it's a CRT.  Looking at Umbre's screenshots, I can barely tell what weapons they're using and this is with STARING at it, not moving around and actively engaging.

You go from having no idea what weapons they're using to knowing what secondary they're using, and the choice of three primaries they're using, 2 if they're not level 25, and usually those weapons play similarly to each other.  Taking that ability away and confusing the enemy IS buying power.