369 replies to this topic

[Timber_Wolf]

Tomino_sama, on March 17 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

cubicDevourer, on March 17 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

Readability in Hawken is damn near atrocious and needs to be improved. If Adhesive wants to keep chassis swapping, fine. As long as they improve the readability of weapons so people can identify classes easier.

Readability is fine. The information you ask to be squeezed into the UI is inconsequential to the Gameplay. Like I said before do you want every gun to be a different luminescant colour_

Honestly I like arcade games but this makes for the Fisher Price Hakwen edition.

This is a thing competitive players actually do in games like Counter-strike and it's done so that you can identify weapons easier and adjust play style accordingly.  Its legality in tournaments is questionable, but it is done.  Just saying.

Edited by Timber_Wolf, March 17 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[Tomino_sama]

cubicDevourer, on March 17 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

And I guess I should solidify my stance whether swapping out a chassis is P2W or not. It does give an advantage, but it is so slight. So so so so so slight. It's a very mild form of mind games basically and it's impact on the game is not enough to be declared P2W imo. However, it is annoying as hell something like this even has to be dealt with. Especially for new players, the people you want to attract and have stay around.

I like this separation the anti-Head-swap camp is trying to make. On the one had it provides an advantage that is behind a pay wall, but is not Pay to Win. Why_ Because the advantage is so small you say_

Well that is Golden from my point of view as I had been saying that for the last X pages. I Put forward that the advantage gained is so small, you could gain more of an advantage by not blinking in combat. That is how weak this "advantage is"

example:
ok so a Beserker firing GL at you would confuse you so much you would fail to adapt_

• Beserker with GL has no damage perk, only cloak

I do not think so.

Let's try another one, A raider with a fred head_ are you fooled_

If the answer is, "yes, I would be fooled and I would die for sure" then maybe it is more that you were easily mislead and should prepare for that better next time.

As a part of the game since OB launch, its surprising that nobody saw that you could change heads and incorporate that into Piloting your own Mech.

That is not to say everyone should do this, it is to say that if you know something exists, why ignore it_

You can't opt out of a bullet to the head_ how is this any different_ Your enemy knows of many ways to confuse you to tip that balance in his/her favor. So why ignore Methods that are so easy to obtain_


seems like sour apples because people got caught out.

I have many head swapped mechs now, I do love to Test BS theories. It gives me no advantage. In fact I think it makes me a target as you get earmarked by the enemy team and singled out for doing this.

If I approach a Fred and it turns out to be a SS how is the approach any different. 2 TOW's and some Primary + a det. if you have one is enough to kill a fred or an SS. If you can't dodge you deserve to Die.

You don't see me Moaning about this time I got killed by X with a headswap. Why_ because until the dev's remove it it part of the game.

Here something constructive. I know Beemann and AJK are two highly constructive posters in this Forum. So why can't we all just get along_ How about proposing a fix to your Gripe in a positive way, without taking on the whole forums in the process.

http://community.pla...urchase-for-hc/

http://community.pla...er-module-item/

There's two solutions. taken from ideas in this thread. Let's try and turn this gloomy thread around guys_

Edited by Tomino_sama, March 17 2013 - 11:06 AM.

[Tomino_sama]

Timber_Wolf, on March 17 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Until you engage expecting a CRT and get hit with 210 damage EOC, that first shot matters a lot.

Which B Class (you say CRT) has EOC fitted_

The only class that could dupe you in this way is the SS and that is OP as it stands, totally separate issue.


Expecting the Unexpected is Obvious in Hawken.

Can it be done_ well prepare yourself then....

Timber_Wolf, on March 17 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Tomino_sama, on March 17 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

Honestly I like arcade games but this makes for the Fisher Price Hakwen edition.

This is a thing competitive players actually do in games like Counter-strike and it's done so that you can identify weapons easier and adjust play style accordingly.  Its legality in tournaments is questionable, but it is done.  Just saying.

I believe you refer to the cut down graphics used in Tournaments. Although this may work in Counter strike I would feel like I was playing a noddy game or pre Alpha if there was an option to reduce all textures etc, make weapons stand out. I would not be interested anymore.

Edited by Tomino_sama, March 17 2013 - 11:02 AM.

[draco7891]

Umbre, on March 17 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

Bear in mind that you have all the time in the world to stare at these still-images. In-game, you have 1-2 seconds before they will notice you and fire. The whole point of being able to recognise the class, is to avoid a surprise alpha-strike where you wouldn't expect there to have been one.

But being able to recognize the class still doesn't tell you enough to modify your strategy. I can identify every upper, but it doesn't make a difference. I'm just as dead if I engage a Brawler thinking it's a Rocketeer as much as if I engage a Brawler thinking it's Hawkins when it's really Flak.

Res upper, fine it's a Sharpshooter. Hawkins, AM-SAR or Slug_ You have 0.25 seconds before the first shell lands, will he play the corners or try to rush you_ Too late, you're dead.

Brawler. Flak or Hawkins_ Too late.

Rocketeer. EOC or Seeker_ Too late.

Raider. EOC or Bolt_ Too late.

Scout. HEAT or Flak_ Too late.

Infiltrator. HEAT or AR_ Too late.

The crux of the argument has always been that such an option doesn't accomplish what it set out to do, while alienating and discouraging a source of income and retention. The principle of making mech identification easy is good, but the method is bad.

Draco

Edited by draco7891, March 17 2013 - 11:04 AM.

[Timber_Wolf]

Tomino_sama, on March 17 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

Timber_Wolf, on March 17 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Until you engage expecting a CRT and get hit with 210 damage EOC, that first shot matters a lot.

Which B Class (you say CRT) has EOC fitted_

The only class that could dupe you in this way is the SS and that is OP as it stands, totally separate issue.


Expecting the Unexpected is Obvious in Hawken.

Can it be done_ well prepare yourself then....

Level 25 raider has EOC.
And your solution is to engage every mech like it has that high potential burst, and that's silly.
I don't understand what the big deal is if people can't see how you look.  You can see who you look, and guess what, nobody else really cares.

Does buying a chassis give you power in the form of being able to fool people_
If yes, it's pay to win, plain and simple.
And if it's pay to win, it's bad.

Tomino_sama, on March 17 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

I believe you refer to the cut down graphics used in Tournaments. Although this may work in Counter strike I would feel like I was playing a noddy game or pre Alpha if there was an option to reduce all textures etc, make weapons stand out. I would not be interested anymore.

No, I'm referring to making THE GUNS BRIGHT PINK AND GREEN.
Anytime you're playing CS (not sure about GO, but i'm pretty sure you can) anybody around you can be using custom skins for all weapons.  Making them bright pink, green, changing audio sounds to make guns more distinct, putting a laser dot on sniper rifles so they know where their unscoped shots will go.

Edited by Timber_Wolf, March 17 2013 - 11:09 AM.

[cubicDevourer]

Tomino_sama, on March 17 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

ok so a beserker firing GL at you would confuse you so much you would fail to adapt _

I do not think so.

No, it would not. But here's the issue. No should HAVE to adapt to this. There should be no miscommunication in the that department. Once I'm in combat, it's easy to identify a mech. It is shooting at me after all. It's the moments when I'm not in combat. When I wanna assess how to approach a mech. If I charge at a rocketeer from behind, knowing as a scout I can defeat in CQC, only to have it turn and blast me with a flak cannon, I know I would be shocked and I would adjust my play accordingly. This should not happen though. Nothing like this, even in hypothetical situations, should ever happen.

[Alastor_Crow]

The argument against changing chassis is based on unlikely situations. I change mechs from time to time but I usually stick with about 2. I don't think that's much to remember. Besides, I'm not naive enough to believe that running a Spree chassis on my Scout is going to fool everyone. Sure it might draw some people in the beginning but at high MMR games, I doubt that's even a huge factor. If they get fooled by it, they probably weren't paying much attention or haven't had enough experience in Hawken to tell where a Piston chassis or a Boot should go. This sounds very much like the "well-timed EMP train" I've heard so much about but never seen in action. Is it possible_ Yes. Likely_ No.

You can't tell me that every mech or at least a lot of them that changed chassis still fools you. Wait, do they_ Besides, even with a Fred in front of me, I'm still going to try to dodge his shots - whether it's an EOC or a TOW. Another thing is that Hawken is not a quickdraw match that ends in 1 death.

You got killed or damaged by a SS in a Fred chassis_ Well, now you know. Oh wait, they might change mechs to fool me. (insert sarcasm here)

Oh, and also, the scoreboard.

Edit:
I'll just leave this thing here. I guess the reason why I've been doing so well in Hawken is not my skills but because everyone thinks I'm a Reaper. lol

Edited by Alastor_Crow, March 17 2013 - 11:10 AM.

[Tomino_sama]

draco7891, on March 17 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

The crux of the argument has always been that such an option doesn't accomplish what it set out to do, while alienating and discouraging a source of income and retention. The principle of making mech identification easy is good, but the method is bad.

^ this i agree with

**Hypnotism only works on those that are suceptible to suggestion. Deception in all it's forms work best on those people with that predisposition. Being in the Subconcious, you cannot be aware of this until you are hypnotised. Some cannot be as they are resistant to Suggestion.

• Do not assume everyone is fooled so easily

• Do not assume everyone needs to know the Name, Mech Tyep, Loadout and internals before they have the Bunnies to engage.

• Do not Assume everyone is considers something so pathetic to be P2W

• Do not Assume Generally speaking

Boosters are P2W - but that is considered to be fine. Skins obfuscate the Mechs too - clearly P2W 0.o

Considering I have seen the results AJK gets in the SS, I can't accept he has a geniune gripe.

AJK If suddenly You were getting hammered by a surge of Head Swapped suits, like lost 6 games in a row, bottom of the board, I could get behind your points. Fact is you still get good KD despite this. At least when I see you play.

So you are either actively exploiting this or you are exaggeration the problem. It cannot be both.

On the one hand - it won't help anyone to win, it might catch out a few experienced players, but that's it.

Edited by Tomino_sama, March 17 2013 - 11:22 AM.

[Tomino_sama]

Timber_Wolf, on March 17 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Level 25 raider has EOC.

And your solution is to engage every mech like it has that high potential burst, and that's silly.
I don't understand what the big deal is if people can't see how you look.  You can see who you look, and guess what, nobody else really cares.

Does buying a chassis give you power in the form of being able to fool people_
If yes, it's pay to win, plain and simple.
And if it's pay to win, it's bad.

So when you consider that the Raider has been out for a little under two weeks, A level 25 Raider_ I have seen a few but guess what in order to do that you must clock in the time on the Mech. Assuming that they ditched the CRT at the first oppertunity and do not have a whole garage of Prestige mechs, you can assume they have played the game for a decent amount of time.

Ever hear of Cover_ I don't just engage head on (unless i'm in the mood) I tend to Bait with a dodge pattern between cover. That makes them shoot and more often than not miss. That allows me to see through this cheap deception fuzzy bunny that is obviously getting you lot blown apart much to your displeasure.

If you go into a street fight expecting boxing rules - think again.

Players will find new and interesting ways within exiting mechanics to gain an advatage. if that advantage cost £5 they will spend regardless of if the cake is a lie or not.

The "deception" gained is psycho-semantic at best. Placebo's work well you know. Remember the first time you put the rate of fire buff on your first Mech in Optimise_ I swore blind I could see a difference. When someone did the Math, well I was kidding myself on that.

You are kidding yourselves on this. This exists in the mind not in the game.

[Ryuronin]

Tomino_sama, on March 17 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

Alastor_Crow, on March 17 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

So..changing chassis is P2W now_

The first shot is a give away in case you were unable to see what class they're using. In a lot of cases, you can see their weapon type while they're engaged in a crossfire. From then on, you should at least be able to remember that X is using a different chassis for their mech. I change my chassis for cosmetic reasons only. If people get fooled by it, that's just a bonus and isn't really the game's fault.

^ this

another well thought out point.

I have no trouble recognising classes or determining loadouts. You cannot know what primary he is using until he fires anyway so it's a guess between three options across all the mechs. All this is pointless. Unless you are calling for that to be obvious, and reducing the skill required to play, creating more Pubstomps for you i guess.

All this talk about making it obvious from looking is devoid of Skill.

What do you want different coloured Flags sticking out of weapons so its easy to see. Come on_

I'd like to add that in all those pictues the names where quite legible so as someone suggested before, putting the name of the mech ontop of the red box along with the players name would be a sensible fix and would both help "newer players" to be able to identify the mech and not impact the games revenue in anyway be it major or minor.

[Umbre]

Tomino_sama, on March 17 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

If you go into a street fight expecting boxing rules - think again.

Boxing is an organised sport with rules in place.
Competitive gaming of any sort is an organised esport with rules in place.

You know what I'd compare a street fight to in gaming_ Hacking/Cheating

Edited by Umbre, March 17 2013 - 11:23 AM.

[Timber_Wolf]

Tomino_sama, on March 17 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

Timber_Wolf, on March 17 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Level 25 raider has EOC.

And your solution is to engage every mech like it has that high potential burst, and that's silly.
I don't understand what the big deal is if people can't see how you look.  You can see who you look, and guess what, nobody else really cares.

Does buying a chassis give you power in the form of being able to fool people_
If yes, it's pay to win, plain and simple.
And if it's pay to win, it's bad.

So when you consider that the Raider has been out for a little under two weeks, A level 25 Raider_ I have seen a few but guess what in order to do that you must clock in the time on the Mech. Assuming that they ditched the CRT at the first oppertunity and do not have a whole garage of Prestige mechs, you can assume they have played the game for a decent amount of time.

Ever hear of Cover_ I don't just engage head on (unless i'm in the mood) I tend to Bait with a dodge pattern between cover. That makes them shoot and more often than not miss. That allows me to see through this cheap deception fuzzy bunny that is obviously getting you lot blown apart much to your displeasure.

If you go into a street fight expecting boxing rules - think again.

Players will find new and interesting ways within exiting mechanics to gain an advatage. if that advantage cost £5 they will spend regardless of if the cake is a lie or not.

The "deception" gained is psycho-semantic at best. Placebo's work well you know. Remember the first time you put the rate of fire buff on your first Mech in Optimise_ I swore blind I could see a difference. When someone did the Math, well I was kidding myself on that.

You are kidding yourselves on this. This exists in the mind not in the game.

I've had a level 25 raider for just under a week now and have only played for a couple hours a day.
So, the playstyle that fits your mech works for every mech in every situation, and player in order to identify mechs_  Gotcha.
And it's not placebo if it causes actual, tangible confusing in the enemy pilot.  100 damage is more than enough to swing a fight in your favor or force a retreat.

Again, if it's an advantage that costs money, it's pay to win.  Pay to win is bad.
Besides, are people really so vain that they need everyone to see how they swapped their mech parts around_  Who cares if other people see what you look like_  we're asking for it to be an option for middle chassis, not legs/arms/struts, not paintjobs, just one middle part.

[Timber_Wolf]

Ryuronin, on March 17 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

I'd like to add that in all those pictues the names where quite legible so as someone suggested before, putting the name of the mech ontop of the red box along with the players name would be a sensible fix and would both help "newer players" to be able to identify the mech and not impact the games revenue in anyway be it major or minor.

I'd like to point out they're still pictures and that the actual text in game when you're moving around is smudgy as balls.

[Alastor_Crow]

Lol now we have veteran players calling Hawken Pay-to-Win.

There's always something to complain about, I suppose.

Edit:
And yes, I paid for the chassis change so I can flaunt how nice my mech in-game. If you think it's unethical, then don't change your chassis. Forgive me for being a bit vain but I like the cosmetics system as it is now.

This thread is becoming pointless, I'm out.

Edited by Alastor_Crow, March 17 2013 - 11:30 AM.

[Tomino_sama]

cubicDevourer, on March 17 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

only to have it turn and blast me with a flak cannon

In your hypothetical scenario, you charge a C class in an A class. from behind too. Well lets assume you did ID the MEch from behidn correctly. We must also assume he was not shooting at anyone. Bearing in mind there is a 180 turn button, you know he will fip on you when he takes fire and unload whatever he has. If you fail to find cover and he nails you thats Pilot Error.

If you charge a C you know he could just sit on you. Stack more HP means the only way is by using the Map cleverly to provide cover enough that you can hit him over and over while he just missed alot.

going back to your scenario, say he flips round and fires the Flak and a Tow. He cannot one shot you. use cover and whittle him down. CQC on C with an A is never a solid plan, unless the location favours your mobility.

Regardless, although a toughie it's not something that you can't deal with.

Rocketeers are even funnier, they sit miles away and give sooo long to dodge behind cover, thy rarely hit me unless I am dogfighting when one rounds a corner behind me.

[Ryuronin]

Timber_Wolf, on March 17 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

Ryuronin, on March 17 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

I'd like to add that in all those pictues the names where quite legible so as someone suggested before, putting the name of the mech ontop of the red box along with the players name would be a sensible fix and would both help "newer players" to be able to identify the mech and not impact the games revenue in anyway be it major or minor.

I'd like to point out they're still pictures and that the actual text in game when you're moving around is smudgy as balls.

No it isnt that bad, I have a fuzzy bunny monitor and I can make out names easily at med range. Long range shouldnt matter as much as nothing can really Alpha-strike you at that range unless your already fairly damaged and at that point you should retreat and repair.

[Tomino_sama]

Ryuronin, on March 17 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

Tomino_sama, on March 17 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

Alastor_Crow, on March 17 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

So..changing chassis is P2W now_

The first shot is a give away in case you were unable to see what class they're using. In a lot of cases, you can see their weapon type while they're engaged in a crossfire. From then on, you should at least be able to remember that X is using a different chassis for their mech. I change my chassis for cosmetic reasons only. If people get fooled by it, that's just a bonus and isn't really the game's fault.

^ this

another well thought out point.

I have no trouble recognising classes or determining loadouts. You cannot know what primary he is using until he fires anyway so it's a guess between three options across all the mechs. All this is pointless. Unless you are calling for that to be obvious, and reducing the skill required to play, creating more Pubstomps for you i guess.

All this talk about making it obvious from looking is devoid of Skill.

What do you want different coloured Flags sticking out of weapons so its easy to see. Come on_

I'd like to add that in all those pictues the names where quite legible so as someone suggested before, putting the name of the mech ontop of the red box along with the players name would be a sensible fix and would both help "newer players" to be able to identify the mech and not impact the games revenue in anyway be it major or minor.

+1

[Timber_Wolf]

Alastor_Crow, on March 17 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

Lol now we have veteran players calling Hawken Pay-to-Win.

There's always something to complain about, I suppose.

There's actually a lot of pay to win stuff in hawken right now.
As I've said before, the only thing worse than free players calling a game pay to win, is them being right.
Counter-measures, chassis cosmetics, and, to an extent, the cupcake are all huge, glaring examples of pay to win that put an awful taste in my mouth.

[Tomino_sama]

Alastor_Crow, on March 17 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

Lol now we have veteran players calling Hawken Pay-to-Win.

There's always something to complain about, I suppose.

Maybe some new Recruits are giving them a hard time :

[Alastor_Crow]

Timber_Wolf, on March 17 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

Alastor_Crow, on March 17 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

Lol now we have veteran players calling Hawken Pay-to-Win.

There's always something to complain about, I suppose.

There's actually a lot of pay to win stuff in hawken right now.
As I've said before, the only thing worse than free players calling a game pay to win, is them being right.
Counter-measures, chassis cosmetics, and, to an extent, the cupcake are all huge, glaring examples of pay to win that put an awful taste in my mouth.

I said I would leave the thread but wow..this. Wait what_ P2W countermeasures_ Are you serious_ I don't even use countermeasures even if I wanted to. A lot of players have more than enough HC to pay for them

And Cupcake as P2W_ LMFAO. Mine simply sits pretty in the garage and rarely sees the battlefield. Okay..I rest my case. This proves how insanely determined the lot of you are to label Hawken as P2W. Later