215 replies to this topic

[Goyo]

The quick kill time due to weapon imbalance, hitscan, and detonator shennanigans makes Hawken no fun.

This is not a rainbow six or realistic combat americas army game with quick kill times.  We are in mechs for christ sake.  The ability to alpha strike to kill mechs in one volley is ludicrous.  The longer kill time FPS I once loved is gone in this current iteration.

I do not enjoy Hawken combat.  Hopefully next changes are more enjoyable.

Issues that need balancing in order of brokenness:  All Hitscan, Detonator, EOC, all Raider weapons, the fact that A mechs repair and are back in battle in a fraction of the time as any other class(they can repair faster and get back to battle faster after death), and all sustained weapons are sub-par compared to burst damage weapons.

Edit:  Very talented and skilled players have the ability to one volley A and B class mechs.  I do not mean to diminish anything these very talented and skilled players can do.  I just want to point out that in a mech game one volley kills should not exist.  Longer time to kill battles puts everyone on a more equal footing and makes people die because of their own mistakes.  That is the sort of game I hope Hawken returns to.

Edited by Goyo, March 26 2013 - 09:20 PM.

[Skrill]

I agree with everything said here damage need to be reduced across the board in its current iteration

[hendman]

You are certainly right that it doesn't feel like your in pile of armor, it evaporates rather quickly sometimes

[NBShoot_me]

These things have armor!_  I thought they were made out of recycled aluminum cans, tissue paper boxes, old TV sets and bailing wire!


But yeah, not the most resilient mechs on the battlefield.  A firefly could wipe all these suckers off the map.. even though that's another game, and relatively a little bit bigger mech... and with big laser weapons, more powerful missiles, and... shutting up now.

[Analysis]

Goyo, on March 26 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

The quick kill time due to weapon imbalance, hitscan, and detonator shennanigans makes Hawken no fun.

This is not a rainbow six or realistic combat americas army game with quick kill times.  We are in mechs for christ sake.  The ability to alpha strike to kill mechs in one volley is ludicrous.  The longer kill time FPS I once loved is gone in this current iteration.

I do not enjoy Hawken combat.  Hopefully next changes are more enjoyable.

Issues that need balancing in order of brokenness:  All Hitscan, Detonator, EOC, all Raider weapons, the fact that A mechs repair and are back in battle in a fraction of the time as any other class, and all sustained weapons are sub-par compared to burst damage weapons.

Kills times are not that quick. The alpha attacks your talking about occur about once a minute. The only weapon that I believe needs to be nerfed is the hellfire missiles. The ease of use and the almost guarantee hit regardless of range is to much. Lower the speed of the missiles or homing to make it a bit more balanced. The hellfires only weakness is if you dodge immediately behind a wall. Hellfires have absurd homing at all ranges.

[Guiotine]

I wasnt aware the reflak and T32-BOLT were broken.

[Goyo]

Analysis, on March 26 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

Goyo, on March 26 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

The quick kill time due to weapon imbalance, hitscan, and detonator shennanigans makes Hawken no fun.

This is not a rainbow six or realistic combat americas army game with quick kill times.  We are in mechs for christ sake.  The ability to alpha strike to kill mechs in one volley is ludicrous.  The longer kill time FPS I once loved is gone in this current iteration.

I do not enjoy Hawken combat.  Hopefully next changes are more enjoyable.

Issues that need balancing in order of brokenness:  All Hitscan, Detonator, EOC, all Raider weapons, the fact that A mechs repair and are back in battle in a fraction of the time as any other class, and all sustained weapons are sub-par compared to burst damage weapons.

Kills times are not that quick. The alpha attacks your talking about occur about once a minute. The only weapon that I believe needs to be nerfed is the hellfire missiles. The ease of use and the almost guarantee hit regardless of range is to much. Lower the speed of the missiles or homing to make it a bit more balanced. The hellfires only weakness is if you dodge immediately behind a wall. Hellfires have absurd homing at all ranges.

Surely you must be exaggerating.   Do you believe hell-fire is stronger than EOC, all Raider weapons, and slug and sabot_  If so, I truly believe you have not used or played against them.

Even tourney players are convinced that hellfires are too inconsistent to be considered competitive weapons.

Edited by Goyo, March 26 2013 - 08:30 PM.

[Goyo]

Guiotine, on March 26 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

I wasnt aware the reflak and T32-BOLT were broken.

The in your face damage of those weapons to me is broken.   A Raider with detonator can alpha strike for over 700 damage... Enough to kill all A's and B's in one volley.

[Moralidad]

I also think that hellfires aren't that bad, as you get punished for being too slow on reacting or out of cover. They do need a bit less tracking though as they really have some nasty curving sometimes. But I really think that hitscan weapons need to be controlled, especially the really high damage ones.

That way you'll make the snipers have to get into a more reasonable range to fight, I've had snipers kill me all the way from their base when I'm in battle at the AA, I know a shot is tough from that distance but it's unreasonable to have a person shooting from that distance and finishing you off, it gives most players no kind of response and no kind of warning.

Fixing the hitboxes on mechs would also be in order, I've had guys hit me from under cover just because I had a massive C-class sized hitbox.

[Analysis]

Goyo, on March 26 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

Analysis, on March 26 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

Goyo, on March 26 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

The quick kill time due to weapon imbalance, hitscan, and detonator shennanigans makes Hawken no fun.

This is not a rainbow six or realistic combat americas army game with quick kill times.  We are in mechs for christ sake.  The ability to alpha strike to kill mechs in one volley is ludicrous.  The longer kill time FPS I once loved is gone in this current iteration.

I do not enjoy Hawken combat.  Hopefully next changes are more enjoyable.

Issues that need balancing in order of brokenness:  All Hitscan, Detonator, EOC, all Raider weapons, the fact that A mechs repair and are back in battle in a fraction of the time as any other class, and all sustained weapons are sub-par compared to burst damage weapons.

Kills times are not that quick. The alpha attacks your talking about occur about once a minute. The only weapon that I believe needs to be nerfed is the hellfire missiles. The ease of use and the almost guarantee hit regardless of range is to much. Lower the speed of the missiles or homing to make it a bit more balanced. The hellfires only weakness is if you dodge immediately behind a wall. Hellfires have absurd homing at all ranges.

Surely you must be exaggerating.   Do you believe hell-fire is stronger than EOC, all Raider weapons, and slug and sabot_  If so, I truly believe you have not used or played against them.

Even tourney players are convinced that hellfires are too inconsistent to be considered competitive weapons.

I'm not sure what level of players you encounter, but I'm not a terrible player. I mostly play missile assault and team death match and hellfires are the bane of my existence. I can handle EOC, the Raider, and the sharpshooter just fine. I've seen hellfires do damage when against any other damage I would of dodge completely unharmed. Once the missile lock is complete you literally can't dodge the missiles. The only strategy is to hide and wait for the missile to hit the cover.

Although I haven't been in any tournaments it doesn't mean I haven't played against some tournament players. My current MMR is 2170.

[Goyo]

Analysis, on March 26 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

Goyo, on March 26 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

Analysis, on March 26 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

Goyo, on March 26 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

The quick kill time due to weapon imbalance, hitscan, and detonator shennanigans makes Hawken no fun.

This is not a rainbow six or realistic combat americas army game with quick kill times.  We are in mechs for christ sake.  The ability to alpha strike to kill mechs in one volley is ludicrous.  The longer kill time FPS I once loved is gone in this current iteration.

I do not enjoy Hawken combat.  Hopefully next changes are more enjoyable.

Issues that need balancing in order of brokenness:  All Hitscan, Detonator, EOC, all Raider weapons, the fact that A mechs repair and are back in battle in a fraction of the time as any other class, and all sustained weapons are sub-par compared to burst damage weapons.

Kills times are not that quick. The alpha attacks your talking about occur about once a minute. The only weapon that I believe needs to be nerfed is the hellfire missiles. The ease of use and the almost guarantee hit regardless of range is to much. Lower the speed of the missiles or homing to make it a bit more balanced. The hellfires only weakness is if you dodge immediately behind a wall. Hellfires have absurd homing at all ranges.

Surely you must be exaggerating.   Do you believe hell-fire is stronger than EOC, all Raider weapons, and slug and sabot_  If so, I truly believe you have not used or played against them.

Even tourney players are convinced that hellfires are too inconsistent to be considered competitive weapons.

I'm not sure what level of players you encounter, but I'm not a terrible player. I mostly play missile assault and team death match and hellfires are the bane of my existence. I can handle EOC, the Raider, and the sharpshooter just fine. I've seen hellfires do damage when against any other damage I would of dodge completely unharmed. Once the missile lock is complete you literally can't dodge the missiles. The only strategy is to hide and wait for the missile to hit the cover.

Although I haven't been in any tournaments it doesn't mean I haven't played against some tournament players. My current MMR is 2170.

I am sure you are a good player.  

Hellfires can indeed be dodged.  More easily at close range since the speed at which hellfires travel means a dodge at close range has a greater vector of difference. "Shotgunning" hellfires is actually often more effective at close range than lockon.

We each are entitled to our opinion and I respect yours.  I believe the only tweaks hellfires need are a turning radius tweak to eliminate the C curve shots hellfires are currently able to do to hit people that are clearly behind cover after a lockon and a larger hellfire spread which wil in effect reduce its damage capacity but increase its hit chance.

I still fell that this current iteration of hawken has kill times that are too quick for a Mech shooter and much quicker than when I first fell in love with this game.

Edited by Goyo, March 26 2013 - 08:54 PM.

[Aims]

Can't really argue with that, OP.

[ShadowWarg]

I would have to agree with the OP's points as well. I know some of us talked before about giving all the weapons a damage nerf or giving all the mechs an armor buff in order to increase the TTK and lengthen matches. Wish I could remember the name of that thread.

Edited by ShadowWarg, March 27 2013 - 08:57 AM.

[Dracoslayer16]

I agree with the OP, TTK is way too short now and while I still enjoy Hawken extensively I miss the days when long duels were common place and getting the jump on someone only gave you an advantage, not guarantee a victory.  Also I miss sustained weapons being viable, I never thought I'd say this but I wouldn't even mind having the OP Vulcan back just to mix things up a bit.

[Omega22]

So fast and it was only a fraction of a second, did he had armor plating equipped or was it scraps of paper meant to believe that it was armor, leave out reinforced armor.
It’s true , I agree with all that has been pointed out in this post,  the armor  is a Joke, even the added internal armor equipped , in a fraction its gone.
Hull plating should be increased, at least mechs can last longer on the map.
In the meantime , we all got to ask ourselves the big question… whatever were the developers thinking off when they designed the armor ( let’s build weak armor  so mech can die quick)
Truly it defeats the true purpose of having armor

ARMOR IN HAWKEN IS A JOKE

Edited by Omega22, March 26 2013 - 09:11 PM.

[Dracoslayer16]

Omega22, on March 26 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

So fast and it was only a fraction of a second, did he had armor plating equipped or was it scraps of paper meant to believe that it was armor, leave out reinforced armor.
It’s true , I agree with all that has been pointed out in this post,  the armor  is a Joke, even the added internal armor equipped , in a fraction its gone.
Hull plating should be increased, at least mechs can last longer on the map.
In the meantime , we all got to ask ourselves the big question… whatever were the developers thinking off when they designed the armor ( let’s build weak armor  so mech can die quick)
Truly it defeats the true purpose of having armor

ARMOR IN HAWKEN IS A JOKE

Actually the armor is fine it's everything else that got buffed.  Burst weapons were buffed to be made more viable and now that everyone is good at using them coupled with the poor addition of the OP detonator, people die much faster now.

[Guiotine]

Goyo, on March 26 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

Guiotine, on March 26 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

I wasnt aware the reflak and T32-BOLT were broken.

The in your face damage of those weapons to me is broken.   A Raider with detonator can alpha strike for over 700 damage... Enough to kill all A's and B's in one volley.

First off, I am not saying I disagree with any other points, save this. Strongest single hit of either of those weapons is a charged BOLT, which does 120. Det does 175, and MIRV does 240. That's 535. Enough to instagib and A-class, yes, but nowhere near enough for a B. Using the EOC + MIRV + DET, Raider hits for 625, only 50 HP away from instagibbing a B-class, but still quite short of "over 700". Not even the SS can do over 700 damage. No mech in the game currently can. I agree EOC needs some toning down, but that is not my point. Focusing only on the Raider and setting aside too much burst in the game, what is wrong with a mech specifically designed for burst damage having burst weapons_ Now, the Raider was probably introduced at a bad time, because there was enough burst already, and not enough viable sustained fire weapons, but its here. The reflak and T32-BOLT are not broken, they are not even that powerful on their own, unlike the EOC. They certainly need some tweaking, but they are far from broken.

[LU0P10]

It's a phase...

Would it be just a scheme to allure newbies into the game by intoxication illusion of power while driving their Unfamiliar Fred initiative...

[Goyo]

Guiotine, on March 26 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

Goyo, on March 26 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

Guiotine, on March 26 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

I wasnt aware the reflak and T32-BOLT were broken.

The in your face damage of those weapons to me is broken.   A Raider with detonator can alpha strike for over 700 damage... Enough to kill all A's and B's in one volley.

First off, I am not saying I disagree with any other points, save this. Strongest single hit of either of those weapons is a charged BOLT, which does 120. Det does 175, and MIRV does 240. That's 535. Enough to instagib and A-class, yes, but nowhere near enough for a B. Using the EOC + MIRV + DET, Raider hits for 625, only 50 HP away from instagibbing a B-class, but still quite short of "over 700". Not even the SS can do over 700 damage. No mech in the game currently can. I agree EOC needs some toning down, but that is not my point. Focusing only on the Raider and setting aside too much burst in the game, what is wrong with a mech specifically designed for burst damage having burst weapons_ Now, the Raider was probably introduced at a bad time, because there was enough burst already, and not enough viable sustained fire weapons, but its here. The reflak and T32-BOLT are not broken, they are not even that powerful on their own, unlike the EOC. They certainly need some tweaking, but they are far from broken.

Thank you for the numbers.  Yes when I said over 700 I was thinking EOC, MIRV, Det.  If your numbers are correct then I should have said over 600 or approaching 700.  My mistake.

As far as the reflak and the T32-Bolt.  I still feel they are too strong provided you are up close and personal.  I do believe the raider has a special that allows a pilot to get up close and personal with any mech in the game. From halfway across any map.

The raider special and weapons I put in the same category as the sharpshooter. The sum of all the parts equals more than it should.

How can you justify some heavies having useless turret mode F specials, Some A class having redundant F key specials and then some mechs having godly combinations tha tjust result in complete power situations_

If I was a hawken dev I could not justify many of the decisions that have been made.  So that leaves me to wonder what they are thinking and what direction they are going_

[Moralidad]

I agree with Goyo. Things are getting thrown in faster than they are getting balanced for, and with the earlier math estimation, ending up with 50 life left after an alpha strike from behind doesn't leave much reaction time. Without mentioning that comes from having full life, how about if you have over 75% or even 90% of your armor and get knocked out like that_

C-class mechs have a bit of a fighting chance considering that they end up with 250 or so life right at the start of a battle, that gives some chance to get to cover, maybe retreat, but get an rev-gl, gl and detonator alpha strike with a grenadier and you'd need two of those to take out a a-class mech, all three weapons have slow travelling time and have a high miss chance. And I understand the use as a support mech and not going up to the front lines but a SS is also a support mech and it devastates up close if it's well handled

The balancing is a bit wrong and you work with what you have, at the end you've got a game with a bit of handicaps that need to get fixed on the long run, it just feels wrong to have a small, tiny, mobile mech like a scout or a reaper come up to a grenadier which is a mech that only dishes out explosions and really give out some pain if not straight up death if you can't handle piloting one.