215 replies to this topic

[Charcoal]

Actually, EOC being mine only could be hilarious.

A mech gets hit with 12 mines and then runs behind his buddies to heal and then they go off all at once while still stuck to him.

[Sylhiri]

Charcoal, on March 27 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

A mech gets hit with 12 mines and then runs behind his buddies to heal and then they go off all at once while still stuck to him.

They explode on contact....

Goyo, on March 27 2013 - 02:07 AM, said:

Leave the EOC mine ability speed and dmg as it is.  Negate the direct damage ability the EOC currently has.  In fact loose all direct damage of the EOC and make it simply a mine layer with  one means of damage.  Mines!

Going from instantly killing an A class with an Alpha strike to instantly killing an A class with an Alpha strike. I never knew a 30 damage nerf could do so much...

Edited by Sylhiri, March 27 2013 - 09:52 AM.

[N0stalgia]

Increase armor for all mechs, pease.

[FussyBadger]

The A Class repair complaint is strange. Do you want proportionate repair rates (ie, 10% of max per second) so that two mechs, regardless of class, will go from 20% of health to 100% health in the same amount of time_ Or do you just want slower repair rates overall_

[Beemann]

Goyo, on March 27 2013 - 02:07 AM, said:

Leave the EOC mine ability speed and dmg as it is.  Negate the direct damage ability the EOC currently has.  In fact loose all direct damage of the EOC and make it simply a mine layer with  one means of damage.  Mines!

Mines are low skill, and the direct hit damage on the EOC is about 30

Mimetic, on March 27 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

On the other side of the coin, a lot of people complain how overpowered the Slug/Sabot combo is, and as a sharpshooter player, I call bull.
First, our targets are pretty far away, so any movement they make pulls them out of our crosshairs very easily. This makes it difficult to hit things unless they are walking right at you (Which is why we camp corridors) or standing still. As a player going up against a sharpshooter YOU SHOULD HAVE THE SENSE NOT TO DO THESE TWO THINGS.

If you cant hit targets with the sharpshooter, you should not be doing well with he sharpshooter. The game should not be balanced around you missing shots on a regular basis

Mimetic, on March 27 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

Second, it actually takes a significant amount of shots to kill another mech with the slug/sabot combo, typically 3 or 4 for an A mech, 5 or 6 for a B and a ton for a C. The fire rate on the slug rifle is somewhere around once per second, and much longer for the sabot. That means you if you had full health, you have AT LEAST 3 seconds to move! Why aren't you moving_! A simple dodge would take you completely out of our line of sight.
Third, we are almost completely useless in close combat. If you run up on a sharpshooter, unless you are already significantly low on life, he's dead. The angle of both our weapons makes it very, very difficult to hit something in near us.

It takes about 3 slug shots beyond the initial burst. These shots, however, happen at any range and are MUCH easier to hit than direct hitting a TOW or GL shot
Sharpshooters are nowhere near useless in CQC. Your alpha strike still does at least 250 damage without including an item. With that and a detonator you do about 430. When you bring power shot into the equation it just becomes stupidly easy to take down targets in CQC

Mimetic, on March 27 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

So, if you've never played a sharpshooter, then you don't know what you're talking about. Play one. You'll find out that you need to plan where you'll be standing. You have to find people playing in a dumb manner (standing still) or be a good shot to hit moving players. You have to constantly zoom in and out to check radar (can't see it zoomed in) to make sure someone isn't going to run up on you. You overheat a lot. You're slow as all hell. You start with a terrible utility item (hologram). Take away the decent damage from the weapons and sharpshooters are worthless.

I play SS every once in a while. It was my first mech back in the early tests
What I experienced post-powershot was a point and click adventure. Sharpshooter is fairly easymode given the low mobility and large hitboxes, and the only thing that really mitigates it is the poorly balanced maps you're forced to play on. Facility removes the CQC barriers and shifts the balance in the other direction, and it *really* shows

Mimetic, on March 27 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

I honestly think that sharpshooters doing so well is more about the opposing players just focusing on "SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT!" instead of thinking about where they are, who can see them, and communicating with their team. Use some actual tactics and team play (if you're in a team game) and sharpshooters are taken down pretty easily.

Actually, it's because with powershot their TTK on an A mech is a second
On an ability that lasts 3
In a game that is increasing dependence on A and B mechs, and continuing to neglect C mechs (that aren't the Grenadier)

[The_Silencer]

Beemann, on March 27 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Goyo, on March 27 2013 - 02:07 AM, said:

Leave the EOC mine ability speed and dmg as it is.  Negate the direct damage ability the EOC currently has.  In fact loose all direct damage of the EOC and make it simply a mine layer with  one means of damage.  Mines!

Mines are low skill, and the direct hit damage on the EOC is about 30

Mimetic, on March 27 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

On the other side of the coin, a lot of people complain how overpowered the Slug/Sabot combo is, and as a sharpshooter player, I call bull.
First, our targets are pretty far away, so any movement they make pulls them out of our crosshairs very easily. This makes it difficult to hit things unless they are walking right at you (Which is why we camp corridors) or standing still. As a player going up against a sharpshooter YOU SHOULD HAVE THE SENSE NOT TO DO THESE TWO THINGS.

If you cant hit targets with the sharpshooter, you should not be doing well with he sharpshooter. The game should not be balanced around you missing shots on a regular basis

Mimetic, on March 27 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

Second, it actually takes a significant amount of shots to kill another mech with the slug/sabot combo, typically 3 or 4 for an A mech, 5 or 6 for a B and a ton for a C. The fire rate on the slug rifle is somewhere around once per second, and much longer for the sabot. That means you if you had full health, you have AT LEAST 3 seconds to move! Why aren't you moving_! A simple dodge would take you completely out of our line of sight.
Third, we are almost completely useless in close combat. If you run up on a sharpshooter, unless you are already significantly low on life, he's dead. The angle of both our weapons makes it very, very difficult to hit something in near us.

It takes about 3 slug shots beyond the initial burst. These shots, however, happen at any range and are MUCH easier to hit than direct hitting a TOW or GL shot
Sharpshooters are nowhere near useless in CQC. Your alpha strike still does at least 250 damage without including an item. With that and a detonator you do about 430. When you bring power shot into the equation it just becomes stupidly easy to take down targets in CQC

Mimetic, on March 27 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

So, if you've never played a sharpshooter, then you don't know what you're talking about. Play one. You'll find out that you need to plan where you'll be standing. You have to find people playing in a dumb manner (standing still) or be a good shot to hit moving players. You have to constantly zoom in and out to check radar (can't see it zoomed in) to make sure someone isn't going to run up on you. You overheat a lot. You're slow as all hell. You start with a terrible utility item (hologram). Take away the decent damage from the weapons and sharpshooters are worthless.

I play SS every once in a while. It was my first mech back in the early tests
What I experienced post-powershot was a point and click adventure. Sharpshooter is fairly easymode given the low mobility and large hitboxes, and the only thing that really mitigates it is the poorly balanced maps you're forced to play on. Facility removes the CQC barriers and shifts the balance in the other direction, and it *really* shows

Mimetic, on March 27 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

I honestly think that sharpshooters doing so well is more about the opposing players just focusing on "SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT!" instead of thinking about where they are, who can see them, and communicating with their team. Use some actual tactics and team play (if you're in a team game) and sharpshooters are taken down pretty easily.

Actually, it's because with powershot their TTK on an A mech is a second
On an ability that lasts 3
In a game that is increasing dependence on A and B mechs, and continuing to neglect C mechs (that aren't the Grenadier)

Mostly agreeon that.

( Pity you said the word "stupidly". I was about to concede you a shinning and greenish Like... )

[sanstodo]

If you're walking over mines, shouldn't that be the low skill part of the equation_  I don't take much mine damage from EOC users since I, you know, pay attention to where I'm moving.  I hardly ever gets kills or reasonable damage from mines.  Almost all of my EOC damage against competent players comes from direct hits.

[Beemann]

sanstodo, on March 27 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

If you're walking over mines, shouldn't that be the low skill part of the equation_  I don't take much mine damage from EOC users since I, you know, pay attention to where I'm moving.  I hardly ever gets kills or reasonable damage from mines.  Almost all of my EOC damage against competent players comes from direct hits.

If you want to take a silo, and there's only a couple chokepoints to get in, which takes more skill; hitting your opponent, or shooting at the ground_
Plus you can just shoot at their feet. Lower accuracy requirement, still does 180 damage

Edited by Beemann, March 27 2013 - 10:30 AM.

[ShadowWarg]

Most agree the current EOC is a problem, (as to what the best solution is, most people are split on that) but the EOC isn't the only issue in this thread, we shouldn't be focusing purely on it.

As a side note I feel this thread came up a little to late, seeing as how the next patch is scheduled for the first week of next month. O well there is always the May patch.

[sanstodo]

Beemann, on March 27 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

sanstodo, on March 27 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

If you're walking over mines, shouldn't that be the low skill part of the equation_  I don't take much mine damage from EOC users since I, you know, pay attention to where I'm moving.  I hardly ever gets kills or reasonable damage from mines.  Almost all of my EOC damage against competent players comes from direct hits.

If you want to take a silo, and there's only a couple chokepoints to get in, which takes more skill; hitting your opponent, or shooting at the ground_
Plus you can just shoot at their feet. Lower accuracy requirement, still does 180 damage

If I'm firing at the ground and praying, I'm going to overheat right quick.  Then I'll die.  Aiming at the feet isn't a great strategy either since the pucks rise from recoil so many of them won't be at the feet (and this is worse while moving).  You'll never get the full 180 that way and likely will get far less while building up heat and waiting for a relatively lengthy reload.  I see people trying it against me all the time so I take the minor damage, time the dodge, then hit them with a full volley that far outpaces the relatively minor DPS you're describing.

[Sylhiri]

ShadowWarg, on March 27 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

As a side note I feel this thread came up a little to late, seeing as how the next patch is scheduled for the first week of next month. O well there is always the May patch.

Ah they knew about it for some time (sharpshooter), even just after the Raider patch. I wouldn't be surprised the reason why the balancing patch didn't come out if they want to add more to it but that's just a guess.

[Relkin]

Sylhiri, on March 27 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

ShadowWarg, on March 27 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

As a side note I feel this thread came up a little to late, seeing as how the next patch is scheduled for the first week of next month. O well there is always the May patch.

Ah they knew about it for some time (sharpshooter), even just after the Raider patch. I wouldn't be surprised the reason why the balancing patch didn't come out if they want to add more to it but that's just a guess.

Well next patch is also implementing fully destructible terrain and if its anything like what it is in the video they released then I fully understand why they haven't balanced yet - destructible terrain will change tactics and make some older tactics rather useless or at least non viable (for long).

[ShadowWarg]

Sylhiri, on March 27 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

ShadowWarg, on March 27 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

As a side note I feel this thread came up a little to late, seeing as how the next patch is scheduled for the first week of next month. O well there is always the May patch.

Ah they knew about it for some time (sharpshooter), even just after the Raider patch. I wouldn't be surprised the reason why the balancing patch didn't come out if they want to add more to it but that's just a guess.

Add stuff and balance later_ That doesn't sound like the best way to handle things.

I said it once and i'll say it again:

ShadowWarg, on March 18 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

Anyway the real question is: HOW MUCH MECH SIM DO YOU WANT IN YOUR FPS, AND HOW MUCH FPS DO YOU WANT IN YOUR MECH SIM. Hawken right now is like a reese's peanut butter cup, expect with just a little bit more chocolate than peanut butter. The perfect peanut butter cup has the perfect balance of both.

Right now Hawken has too much Chocolate and not enough peanut butter. Giving more weight to the mech's movement and increasing the TTK by buffing the armor or nerfing the global damage should help imo.

Relkin, on March 27 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

Well next patch is also implementing fully destructible terrain and if its anything like what it is in the video they released then I fully understand why they haven't balanced yet - destructible terrain will change tactics and make some older tactics rather useless or at least non viable (for long).

That is not this patch. its planned but not for this patch

Edited by ShadowWarg, March 27 2013 - 10:50 AM.

[TheVulong]

I'll say that again - make that f*ckin' EOC secondary!

[Keyser Soze]

Goyo, on March 26 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

The quick kill time due to weapon imbalance, hitscan, and detonator shennanigans makes Hawken no fun.

This is not a rainbow six or realistic combat americas army game with quick kill times.  We are in mechs for christ sake.  The ability to alpha strike to kill mechs in one volley is ludicrous.  The longer kill time FPS I once loved is gone in this current iteration.

I do not enjoy Hawken combat.  Hopefully next changes are more enjoyable.

Issues that need balancing in order of brokenness:  All Hitscan, Detonator, EOC, all Raider weapons, the fact that A mechs repair and are back in battle in a fraction of the time as any other class(they can repair faster and get back to battle faster after death), and all sustained weapons are sub-par compared to burst damage weapons.

Edit:  Very talented and skilled players have the ability to one volley A and B class mechs.  I do not mean to diminish anything these very talented and skilled players can do.  I just want to point out that in a mech game one volley kills should not exist.  Longer time to kill battles puts everyone on a more equal footing and makes people die because of their own mistakes.  That is the sort of game I hope Hawken returns to.

I hate to say it but this one is right about most everything he said....These changes would only help the game become more competitive all the way around. (Mainly some weapon balancing which I know is sure to come but also an increase of mech armor across the board)

Edited by Keyser Soze, March 27 2013 - 11:04 AM.

[Sylhiri]

ShadowWarg, on March 27 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

Add stuff and balance later_ That doesn't sound like the best way to handle things.

It's a complete guess. I think they want to try to address the issues from the Raider patch in the next patch, I only guess this because we haven't had a balance patch yet so I think they are putting balancing stuff on the "1 Mech A Month" patch.

TheVulong, on March 27 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

I'll say that again - make that f*ckin' EOC secondary!

It functions better as a primary. If you say that because of the damage then that is just lazy balancing.

[Beemann]

sanstodo, on March 27 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

If I'm firing at the ground and praying, I'm going to overheat right quick.  Then I'll die.  Aiming at the feet isn't a great strategy either since the pucks rise from recoil so many of them won't be at the feet (and this is worse while moving).  You'll never get the full 180 that way and likely will get far less while building up heat and waiting for a relatively lengthy reload.  I see people trying it against me all the time so I take the minor damage, time the dodge, then hit them with a full volley that far outpaces the relatively minor DPS you're describing.

You're not firing at the ground and praying, you're holding a point
Additionally, you absolutely CAN do that 180 (and even if you dont, anything 150 or older and your primary will take them to 200 or lower) and account for differences in movement... not that there isn't a huge window after any dodge
The full volley you're describing is only 30 more damage, and the DPS isn't the issue, the burst is

[TheVulong]

Quote

It functions better as a primary. If you say that because of the damage then that is just lazy balancing.

But that would have solved the alphas problem.. Partly.

[sanstodo]

Beemann, on March 27 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

sanstodo, on March 27 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

If I'm firing at the ground and praying, I'm going to overheat right quick.  Then I'll die.  Aiming at the feet isn't a great strategy either since the pucks rise from recoil so many of them won't be at the feet (and this is worse while moving).  You'll never get the full 180 that way and likely will get far less while building up heat and waiting for a relatively lengthy reload.  I see people trying it against me all the time so I take the minor damage, time the dodge, then hit them with a full volley that far outpaces the relatively minor DPS you're describing.

You're not firing at the ground and praying, you're holding a point
Additionally, you absolutely CAN do that 180 (and even if you dont, anything 150 or older and your primary will take them to 200 or lower) and account for differences in movement... not that there isn't a huge window after any dodge
The full volley you're describing is only 30 more damage, and the DPS isn't the issue, the burst is

You're holding the point for how long before overheating_  And obviously giving away your position for any grenadier or non-direct fire class to kill your heat crippled butt.  Sounds like a losing proposition to me.  I can't think of a single situation in which this is the optimal strategy outside of the very end of games where holding a point for a few seconds matter more than dying and losing two to three times as much time respawning and traveling.

Why is the burst an issue on EOC rather than any of the other burst weapons_  I'm honestly fine with the burst damage because if I'm getting alpha striked, I'm either repairing at an inopportune time and deserve to die, made a movement mistake and opened myself up, or got flanked and am screwed regardless.

Again, I play EOC infiltrator pretty much exclusively at this point and routinely get into fights with other EOC users.  If they're able to hit me with 150 or over dmg, it doesn't matter if they're aiming at my feet or at center mass, they're on line and will hit me.  And that's my fault for fuzzy bunny up, or a great shot by them.

[Analysis]

Goyo, on March 27 2013 - 02:07 AM, said:

TheVulong, on March 27 2013 - 01:53 AM, said:

Barsu4ara, on March 27 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

TheVulong, on March 27 2013 - 01:29 AM, said:

Get rid of EOC, Detonator, Powershot - problem solved.

I'll expound on that...

Turn all hitscan into projectiles with major Muze flashes.  Give them snipers no hidden fire and make them lead targets.

Leave the EOC mine ability speed and dmg as it is.  Negate the direct damage ability the EOC currently has.  In fact loose all direct damage of the EOC and make it simply a mine layer with  one means of damage.  Mines!

I love the game play element of the EOC.  Being able to corral a player by laying mines on both sides is fun. The ammount of damage done is extreme.  There must be some happy medium between current mine laying ability which I hope chooos to define th EOC by that. Instead of the MONSTER direct damage that the current EOC does.

What if you turen the EOC into a mine layer and the cirect hits punted_

Do current real life mine layers scorebonus points for direct hits on deployment_

No.

Because thier job is to deploy mines in a certain location.

My wish is that EOC looses 75 percent of its direct damage ability.. because you people choose to have that fker shoot at hitscan drop off with slightly less delay than hitscan (for fkn mines).

Balance issues my friends....

Unless I get instagibbed by a sniper I usually have an idea of where they are attacking. The key is map awareness. If you have a general understanding of terrain, paths, and observable player patterns the mech is not quite as scary. Can the mech be frustrating_ Certainly, but with a little tactical thinking you can often out smart other pilots. Your suggestion to eliminate the EOC direct damage would utterly kill the weapon. I can usually easily counter EOC mines if I'm aware of them. The current meta around the EOC is to lay mines. Do you know what counters EOC mines_ Vertical thrusters. Often when I face EOC infiltrators they are so fixed on laying mines they don't even bother to try direct damage. It is true that vertical flight can make you more exposed, but you will take no damage from mines then. So if you are not taking damage from the EOC you have effectly reduced the damage potential of a mech by about half. Please consider some of the implications before trying to destroy a weapon.