215 replies to this topic

[Sylhiri]

TheVulong, on March 27 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

But that would have solved the alphas problem.. Partly.

Heat Cannon primary with EOC secondary. Your a madman! >:0

[Beemann]

sanstodo, on March 27 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

You're holding the point for how long before overheating_  And obviously giving away your position for any grenadier or non-direct fire class to kill your heat crippled butt.  Sounds like a losing proposition to me.  I can't think of a single situation in which this is the optimal strategy outside of the very end of games where holding a point for a few seconds matter more than dying and losing two to three times as much time respawning and traveling.

Why is the burst an issue on EOC rather than any of the other burst weapons_  I'm honestly fine with the burst damage because if I'm getting alpha striked, I'm either repairing at an inopportune time and deserve to die, made a movement mistake and opened myself up, or got flanked and am screwed regardless.

Again, I play EOC infiltrator pretty much exclusively at this point and routinely get into fights with other EOC users.  If they're able to hit me with 150 or over dmg, it doesn't matter if they're aiming at my feet or at center mass, they're on line and will hit me.  And that's my fault for fuzzy bunny up, or a great shot by them.

So according to you, mines are hard to hit, don't provide sufficient area denial, and dont do enough damage
.... and you're defending them because...._

And burst is a problem on the EOC because it does 210 damage. There are certainly other damage outliers, but that doesn't make the EOC any less a problem. High burst itself is an issue because it drastically lowers TTK, which leads to shorter fights and more boring matches. There's simply no counterplay

Edited by Beemann, March 27 2013 - 11:19 AM.

[TheVulong]

Quote

Heat Cannon primary with EOC secondary. Your a madman! >:0

Lol, nope. EOC + AR/Hawkins-RPR/SMC/Mini-Flak/Slug maybe.. By the way i think Heat should be Secondary as well.

[c0mad0r]

Without getting into any long winded weapon vs weapon arguments I am simply going to say that since Alpha1 the time to kill an opponent has gone down significantly enough to at least make it noticeable.

Simply stated:
- At least 75% of people's kills come from either ones secondary and/or their internal offensive weapon (HE, Detonator or Turrets).
- Time-between-deaths is shorter than it was from CBT's (Closed Beta) than it was from APT's (Alpha Play).

To summarize, the game is getting boring for multiple reasons... Whether it be the lack of map options, the lack of new players, the lowered skill threshold or something else; The game needs help to keep people interested.

[sanstodo]

Beemann, on March 27 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

sanstodo, on March 27 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

You're holding the point for how long before overheating_  And obviously giving away your position for any grenadier or non-direct fire class to kill your heat crippled butt.  Sounds like a losing proposition to me.  I can't think of a single situation in which this is the optimal strategy outside of the very end of games where holding a point for a few seconds matter more than dying and losing two to three times as much time respawning and traveling.

Why is the burst an issue on EOC rather than any of the other burst weapons_  I'm honestly fine with the burst damage because if I'm getting alpha striked, I'm either repairing at an inopportune time and deserve to die, made a movement mistake and opened myself up, or got flanked and am screwed regardless.

Again, I play EOC infiltrator pretty much exclusively at this point and routinely get into fights with other EOC users.  If they're able to hit me with 150 or over dmg, it doesn't matter if they're aiming at my feet or at center mass, they're on line and will hit me.  And that's my fault for fuzzy bunny up, or a great shot by them.

So according to you, mines are hard to hit, don't provide sufficient area denial, and dont do enough damage
.... and you're defending them because...._

And burst is a problem on the EOC because it does 210 damage. There are certainly other damage outliers, but that doesn't make the EOC any less a problem. High burst itself is an issue because it drastically lowers TTK, which leads to shorter fights and more boring matches. There's simply no counterplay

Nice strawman you got there, having fun punching it_

Here's my actual argument: The EOC is hard to hit directly for the full damage, so it makes sense for the payoff to be good.  How good is up to debate (I'd be ok with a slight damage nerf) but the melodramatic hand-wringing over theoretically good but practically bad applications like rampant mine laying are bad arguments.  Notice that this is nothing close to the position you're ascribing to me, but hey, this is the internet, so whatever.

From my experience, the area of denial tactics you're describing are counterable and lead to vulnerabilities to those who use them.  So while they may be problematic in the short run, in the long run, player strategies will adapt and expose them.

I see your point on burst and agree that some burst should be toned down.  I think nerfing the detonator a bit, the SS powershot significantly, and the EOC a bit is fine and would prevent instagibs.  However, I think the situation isn't quite as dire as many make it out to be; relatively minor tweaks could solve these problems while still rewarding players for exploiting openings and punishing players for creating them.  Furthermore, lowering burst will make C classes better, buff the upcoming healer, etc.  If anything, I would urge the devs to proceed more cautiously with changes in the future to avoid creating two new problems for every old one solved.

[Beemann]

Except your initial position involved attacking my position on the mines. Additionally, the EOC isn't as hard to hit as you're implying it is, and you can always... you know... make it easier to use instead of heaping more damage on it and breaking the game
So I'm not sure how it's straw-manning when your initial position was one of defending mines, and you've now tried to shift the goalposts to the EOC in general while implying that the mines are bad in every conceivable sense  (which you havent really proved aside from saying it's really impractical/hard/counterable)

Additionally you have yet to actually adequately explain how you plan on getting around what is basically an initial burst of at least 300 in a teamfight over a particular area. I suspect this is because it isn't actually possible. The fact that the gun can then do 210 damage on top of that, regardless of the skill needed to pull off other shots (because hitting a target with projectiles in an enclosed space is pretty simple and straightforward) is absurd

As for your points about healers and the C mech
The Healer is borked either way, and C mechs are underpowered at the moment. I don't see how actually making fights interesting instead of one and done affairs (because they basically are when you've got so many combos that drop A mechs to under 100 health in a second or less) will make the game worse

[sanstodo]

Beemann, on March 27 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

Except your initial position involved attacking my position on the mines. Additionally, the EOC isn't as hard to hit as you're implying it is, and you can always... you know... make it easier to use instead of heaping more damage on it and breaking the game
So I'm not sure how it's straw-manning when your initial position was one of defending mines, and you've now tried to shift the goalposts to the EOC in general while implying that the mines are bad in every conceivable sense  (which you havent really proved aside from saying it's really impractical/hard/counterable)

Additionally you have yet to actually adequately explain how you plan on getting around what is basically an initial burst of at least 300 in a teamfight over a particular area. I suspect this is because it isn't actually possible. The fact that the gun can then do 210 damage on top of that, regardless of the skill needed to pull off other shots (because hitting a target with projectiles in an enclosed space is pretty simple and straightforward) is absurd

As for your points about healers and the C mech
The Healer is borked either way, and C mechs are underpowered at the moment. I don't see how actually making fights interesting instead of one and done affairs (because they basically are when you've got so many combos that drop A mechs to under 100 health in a second or less) will make the game worse

I think your position on mines is ridiculous based on personal experience playing with the EOC at great length.  Laying mines and hoping is simply not a good strategy in most situations.  I am sure you can come up with a few but in the vast majority of combat situations, it's simply sub-optimal.  Anyway, this is meaningless to me and I never have defended mines.  If you can quote where I think mines should be buffed, or utilized more, or are underpowered, feel free to find it.  You could eliminate the mine function from the EOC and it wouldn't affect my EOC play at all.

Where did I ever argue that the EOC should have a damage buff_  Again, reading comprehension: I've argued that it should actually have a slight damage nerf, if anything.  That's what strawman means.  You're assigning me positions that I have never taken, and in my argument class, you would fail this quiz.

Oh, and thanks for ignoring my agreement that burst damage could take a nerf but that the devs simply should tread carefully to avoid creating new problems in the place of old ones.  I'm trying to argue in good faith but you have to engage with my actual stances rather than the ones you want me to hold for your ease of argumentation.

Edited by sanstodo, March 27 2013 - 11:54 AM.

[Beemann]

I wasnt aware that defending something specifically meant asking for a buff, nor did I realize that attacking someone's position on mines meant that you secretly agreed with them, or that shifting the goalposts makes arguing against these initial positions strawmanning
Silly me, right_

Additionally, the hilarious part of this is that you're assigning arguments to me that I never made. I never at any point said that you were asking that they be buffed, merely that you were defending their current status as damage outliers

The EOC doesn't need a "bit" of a nerf. It needs to stop doing more damage than secondaries. That's where the disagreement comes in. Unless your "bit" includes making the weapon easier to use and dropping its damage by a decent amount, you're still advocating the same problem based on your personal inability to utilize minelaying on the EOC.... a capability that several other people in these threads have claimed to have used, and have absolutely pulled off in various matches

[sanstodo]

Beemann, on March 27 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

I wasnt aware that defending something specifically meant asking for a buff, nor did I realize that attacking someone's position on mines meant that you secretly agreed with them, or that shifting the goalposts makes arguing against these initial positions strawmanning
Silly me, right_

Additionally, the hilarious part of this is that you're assigning arguments to me that I never made. I never at any point said that you were asking that they be buffed, merely that you were defending their current status as damage outliers

The EOC doesn't need a "bit" of a nerf. It needs to stop doing more damage than secondaries. That's where the disagreement comes in. Unless your "bit" includes making the weapon easier to use and dropping its damage by a decent amount, you're still advocating the same problem based on your personal inability to utilize minelaying on the EOC.... a capability that several other people in these threads have claimed to have used, and have absolutely pulled off in various matches

Again, I honestly don't care at all about mine damage.  I'm not defending the current damage output from mines or not; I'm simply saying that it's not a viable strategy for most situations.  Sure, I am sure there are players who have used it occasionally in matches but it's not really the crux of the issue from what I can tell.  The burst damage is.  My position is that the crying about mine damage misses the point and is mostly just bitching for the sake of bitching.

Why do you want the weapon to be easier to use_  Shouldn't there be weapons with higher skill ceilings_  Otherwise, everyone would just use the easiest available weapon since there would be no rewards for mastering difficult weapons (such as the dozens of hours I put into the EOC).  Again, I'm fine with gradually dropping EOC damage (and burst damage in general) but the whiplash balancing techniques so far have created as many problems as they have fixed.  The problem with minelaying isn't unique to me; my opinion is as much from experience playing against EOC users as using it myself.

[Command0Dude]

I wish there was a way to slap people who even mention the words "Alpha Strike."

Sit down for a minute and ask yourself, when does an alpha strike occur_

It occurs when somebody is standing absolutely still, or is repairing. As in, Alpha strikes are rare and not the norm.

I have seen real alpha strikes before. I've played Mech Assault. When an Assault Class mech is given enough powerups, it can insta-gib ANY non-Assault Class mech, at any time. That is an Alpha strike.

And complaining about people dying too fast_ Huge overexaggeration. In a 1v1, it's almost to the point where I often find myself on the verge of overheating in the majority of combats I enter, even with CR-T Recruit. What you're really complaining about is teamwork and focus fire.

[curlupanddie]

sanstodo, on March 27 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

Beemann, on March 27 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

I wasnt aware that defending something specifically meant asking for a buff, nor did I realize that attacking someone's position on mines meant that you secretly agreed with them, or that shifting the goalposts makes arguing against these initial positions strawmanning
Silly me, right_

Additionally, the hilarious part of this is that you're assigning arguments to me that I never made. I never at any point said that you were asking that they be buffed, merely that you were defending their current status as damage outliers

The EOC doesn't need a "bit" of a nerf. It needs to stop doing more damage than secondaries. That's where the disagreement comes in. Unless your "bit" includes making the weapon easier to use and dropping its damage by a decent amount, you're still advocating the same problem based on your personal inability to utilize minelaying on the EOC.... a capability that several other people in these threads have claimed to have used, and have absolutely pulled off in various matches

Again, I honestly don't care at all about mine damage.  I'm not defending the current damage output from mines or not; I'm simply saying that it's not a viable strategy for most situations.  Sure, I am sure there are players who have used it occasionally in matches but it's not really the crux of the issue from what I can tell.  The burst damage is.  My position is that the crying about mine damage misses the point and is mostly just bitching for the sake of bitching.

Why do you want the weapon to be easier to use_  Shouldn't there be weapons with higher skill ceilings_  Otherwise, everyone would just use the easiest available weapon since there would be no rewards for mastering difficult weapons (such as the dozens of hours I put into the EOC).  Again, I'm fine with gradually dropping EOC damage (and burst damage in general) but the whiplash balancing techniques so far have created as many problems as they have fixed.  The problem with minelaying isn't unique to me; my opinion is as much from experience playing against EOC users as using it myself.

Uggh, you just talk in circles while Beeman tries to get his point across.

Mine laying is viable and a powerful utility that no other primary has, combined with crazy burst damage, this makes two strong cases as to why the EOC needs a nerf. Nobody is talking about lowering the skill ceiling on it, only that it's not that hard to deal damage with for the damage you get out of it (i.e.  right now, the ceiling is disproportionate to the reward)

Also, I never saw a comment from Beeman saying he wanted it to be easier to use, or any other assessment you've tried to throw back at him. I'm not even sure where reading comprehension enters into it.

TL;DR EOC is broken, you don't know how to use it outside of burst damage, and you're basically trolling beeman with your arguments.

[ShadowWarg]

Right now "Alpha Strike" is the buzz phrase people are using to justify that burst damage is to high. That's all.

Personally I kind of wish this conversation would go beyond talking about the EOC. I mean there is already a thread dedicated to the weapon on the front page.

Edited by ShadowWarg, March 27 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[curlupanddie]

Command0Dude, on March 27 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

I wish there was a way to slap people who even mention the words "Alpha Strike."

Sit down for a minute and ask yourself, when does an alpha strike occur_

It occurs when somebody is standing absolutely still, or is repairing. As in, Alpha strikes are rare and not the norm.

I have seen real alpha strikes before. I've played Mech Assault. When an Assault Class mech is given enough powerups, it can insta-gib ANY non-Assault Class mech, at any time. That is an Alpha strike.

And complaining about people dying too fast_ Huge overexaggeration. In a 1v1, it's almost to the point where I often find myself on the verge of overheating in the majority of combats I enter, even with CR-T Recruit. What you're really complaining about is teamwork and focus fire.

Alpha strike may not be the "right" term, but referencing another broken game doesn't really justify it. The core concept is A classes and B classes will be reduced to rubble or 5% life in a fraction of a second in this game right now by three major offenders, where reaction time is all but a formality from there.

[Sylhiri]

http://en.wikipedia....strike_(gaming)

[hendman]

Relkin, on March 27 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

Sylhiri, on March 27 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

ShadowWarg, on March 27 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

As a side note I feel this thread came up a little to late, seeing as how the next patch is scheduled for the first week of next month. O well there is always the May patch.

Ah they knew about it for some time (sharpshooter), even just after the Raider patch. I wouldn't be surprised the reason why the balancing patch didn't come out if they want to add more to it but that's just a guess.

Well next patch is also implementing fully destructible terrain and if its anything like what it is in the video they released then I fully understand why they haven't balanced yet - destructible terrain will change tactics and make some older tactics rather useless or at least non viable (for long).

The next patch will not contain any destructible environments, although there will be a new map in it. The video you saw was for demonstration purposes only, and so was the map used in it.

[StutterStep]

curlupanddie, on March 27 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

Uggh, you just talk in circles while Beeman tries to get his point across.

Mine laying is viable and a powerful utility that no other primary has, combined with crazy burst damage, this makes two strong cases as to why the EOC needs a nerf. Nobody is talking about lowering the skill ceiling on it, only that it's not that hard to deal damage with for the damage you get out of it (i.e.  right now, the ceiling is disproportionate to the reward)

Also, I never saw a comment from Beeman saying he wanted it to be easier to use, or any other assessment you've tried to throw back at him. I'm not even sure where reading comprehension enters into it.

TL;DR EOC is broken, you don't know how to use it outside of burst damage, and you're basically trolling beeman with your arguments.

I was getting ready to ask how the hell he thought he'd ever beat a good defensive EOC user with that, "I only direct hit" nonsense.  I was also wondering why he cares so little about the mine damage, since all but about 30 damage from the EOC is mine damage...

[IllustriousFox]

The damage on the EOC isn't the problem, it actually has less DPS than most weapons.  The issue is with the strength of the mines and the fact that the skill-reward ratio for laying down mines its greater than hitting your target.

Edited by IllustriousFox, March 27 2013 - 01:16 PM.

[xXHadronCutterXx]

ShadowWarg, on March 27 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

Right now "Alpha Strike" is the buzz phrase people are using to justify that burst damage is to high. That's all.

Personally I kind of wish this conversation would go beyond talking about the EOC. I mean there is already a thread dedicated to the weapon on the front page.

It's not just about one weapon doing so much damage, it's the insane combinations of high damage weapons. Imagine a Sharpie sneaking up to you. The SSPSD (Slug Sabot PowerShot Detonator) combo is an insta kill in like 5 seconds. The EMD (EOC MIRV Detonator) combo comes in second which also is an insta kill in ~5 seconds. It only goes even lower with internals and optimizations. That is fuzzy bunny ridiculous. There are only two ways to counter this: Having teammates come to your aid before you die or being able to pull these combos of yourself. That's it. I hardly see how anything can justify this. It's ruining the game. Do you really think someone new will want to play this game when they get killed in less than 5 seconds while it takes them around, let's say, 20 seconds to kill someone_ Of course not, in most cases.

This problem is far worse then some people think. It drives away new players, it takes average skill to pull these off, it doesn't serve any tactical role other than "Get in yo' face, pummel you to your death in a couple of moments, get downed by a teammate, respawn and ready to insta kill again. Rince and repeat", it makes people use only these mechs because they can't counter them with any other mech and as it may seem, the devs are actually building the game around this broken mechanic by giving you a buddy to constantly heal you.

Don't get me wrong, I'll continue to play and try to enjoy this game because it's grown on me, but the devs are just doing a counterfavor to themselves, the new players and the entire community if they don't adress this problem in a proper way. That's why we're here to give feedback and help the devs do the best job they possibly can.

[Flifang]

Just a question,
has anyone tried a grenadier in turret mode using a detonator_
The H.E. charge does nice damage in turret if i remember correctly.
But then again, i only got to lvl2 last time it was test-drivable_

[IllustriousFox]

I don't really see these "Alpha Strikes" as being a real issue.  They seem like nothing more than exploiting an enemies incompetence.  75% of the game modes in Hawken require some level of teamwork and team dynamics.  Couple this with having a basic understanding of map awareness, and no opponent should be consistently pulling off these spikes.

The only issue with these alpha strikes stems from the varying skill levels that puts less-skilled players in an environment where they are dominated and aren't able to develop the necessary skills to thrive in this game.  Even then this isn't in issue with Alpha Strikes but more of an issue with matchmaking in general.  In my opinion, arguing about alpha strikes is essentially admitting to lack of team cohesion and map awareness(as well as the refusal to develop said attributes) and will only result in negative changes

Edited by IllustriousFox, March 27 2013 - 01:58 PM.