215 replies to this topic

[the_Sprawl]

RIght now the game feels like its in some kind of limbo state, not knowing its place, its not as fun as it was when I first got into it 12.12.12. And back then the AR and TOW was really good. Now its all burst, with the Detonator leading the charge.

The Vulcan has never been good in my time of playing. Fun yes, good no. It can't compete with the burst alternatives for cqc. And people want to nerf the Hellfires even more. Should probaly just dismantle the Bruiser then and recycle its parts. Problem is Hellfires are on both Rocketeer and Bruiser. Alot of weapons are on different classes. Imho, that will make it impossible to properly balance them all. Take one head off, another pops out.

And as an example, I really don't see why the SMC is in the game. It should be removed, and focus shifted to the AR and the Vulcan instead. Right now either weapons can't ble properly balanced because buffing one will nerf another of the three. They keep introducing new weapons and don't know how to balance them afterwards. Keep it simple is balance 1-2-3. An that Vulcan spinup time is just nonsense. Just enough time to see a scout deliver a tow and a flak before they bounce back. It should have a significantly higher dps to counteract the fact it has a spinup time. Not 20 less dps than the mini-flak AND spin-up time.

ANd ofcourse. The EOC/Raider and Slug/SS. Everyone plays them now so trying to talk them into not being opd is getting harder and harder.

Increase TTK; more utilities, less burst, more mobility. And make the sustained-fire weapons more viable.

If this game turns into an even bigger burst/pekaboo fest than it is now by introducing a healing mech to counteract poor balance of old and new weapons...idk. Perhaps time to move on.

And how, exactly, are we going to deal with a Brawler in turret mode with a Healing mech behind_ Oh, but of course, a weapon with even higher burst damage.  

Unless they actually get creative and make the healing mech blow up like a tactical nuke when destroyed....

[xXHadronCutterXx]

IllustriousFox, on March 27 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

I don't really see these "Alpha Strikes" as being a real issue.  They seem like nothing more than exploiting an enemies incompetence.  75% of the game modes in Hawken require some level of teamwork and team dynamics.  Couple this with having a basic understanding of map awareness, and no opponent should be consistently pulling off these spikes.

The only issue with these alpha strikes stems from the varying skill levels that puts less-skilled players in an environment where they are dominated and aren't able to develop the necessary skills to thrive in this game.  Even then this isn't in issue with Alpha Strikes but more of an issue with matchmaking in general.  In my opinion, arguing about alpha strikes is essentially admitting to lack of team cohesion and map awareness(as well as the refusal to develop said attributes) and will only result in negative changes

I don't really agree with you, the problem is the unfair advantage it has over every other mech in the game. Why should you bother playing a tactical Grenadier and get lower XP when you can pilot a Raider and get mad XP for just rambo rushing people_

[IllustriousFox]

xXHadroncutterXx, on March 27 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

I don't really agree with you, the problem is the unfair advantage it has over every other mech in the game. Why should you bother playing a tactical Grenadier and get lower XP when you can pilot a Raider and get mad XP for just rambo rushing people_

Your example only supports what I previously mentioned.  A Raider playing very aggressive would dominate players in a lower bracket.  If that same player were to attempt that against a team of equally/greater skilled players they would not be as successful.

I understand this game has different roles across different mechs and as a result we see varying playstyles, but an individual's ability to dominate a team is solely reliant on the enemy teams lack of awareness and teamwork.  An experienced player may be able to solo three newcomers, but that same player wouldn't have the same results against three opponents in the same skill range.

And If we're talking about Deathmatch all of the opponents can be viewed as being on the same team, since they all pose a threat to you as a player.

Edited by IllustriousFox, March 27 2013 - 02:17 PM.

[ShadowWarg]

You can't eliminate Alpha strikes, its virtually impossible. What can be done is keeping them in check by changing the damage output of all the weapons and increase the TTK. I personally never saw Alpha strikes as a problem (excluding the SS's PowerShot). That being said, I'm not a rookie so I don't know how it effect newcomers.

[ReachH]

c0mad0r, on March 27 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

Without getting into any long winded weapon vs weapon arguments I am simply going to say that since Alpha1 the time to kill an opponent has gone down significantly enough to at least make it noticeable.

Simply stated:
- At least 75% of people's kills come from either ones secondary and/or their internal offensive weapon (HE, Detonator or Turrets).
- Time-between-deaths is shorter than it was from CBT's (Closed Beta) than it was from APT's (Alpha Play).

To summarize, the game is getting boring for multiple reasons... Whether it be the lack of map options, the lack of new players, the lowered skill threshold or something else; The game needs help to keep people interested.

Unless you're using EOC, Slug or HEAT. You know... the three useful primaries.

Also I agree with the TTKs, longer TTKs make better players clearly better, rather than just statistically better.

[KaszaWspraju]

Goyo, on March 26 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

...
Longer time to kill battles puts everyone on a more equal footing and makes people die because of their own mistakes.  That is the sort of game I hope Hawken returns to.

I support this totally.

[NBShoot_me]

As far as the SS goes, they need to add some consequences when it comes to sniping while being able to put out large amounts of damage in 2 to 3 shots (both primary and alt weapon being fired).


I'd rather see something similar to the turret mode ability of the big mechs, but, more of a "deploy" option.  Similar results, but in the case of the SS, have stabilizer legs deploy behind it making it immobile (prevent having the recoil from flipping the mech, increased accuracy, increased weapon damage to something around current levels, maybe not power shot levels, but would be nice if it would be close, along with a 180 degree turning range).  When not deployed, reduced damage, reduced accuracy, same reload speed (not sure what technical reason could be named for a slower reload speed, maybe faster though (lower power output required).

When it comes to the C-class mechs, I really wish that the devs would give the turret mode more of a reason to exist beyond some passive perk and a small decrease in damage if that exists, never cared to check.  Maybe something along the way of being immobile, but have some unique high damage output weapon (long reload_).  As it is, it looks silly watching brawlers float about in turret mode behind energy shields (isn't this this game with the devs that don't like energy weapons_  But we have energy shields/Quake3 style jump platforms/healing balls_)


That, and I wish they’d drop the lame ragdoll death effect where the mechs die like video game physics just got introduced to the gaming world.  THEY NEED TO TOPPLE!! LOCK UP AND FALL OVER SMOKING, SPARKING, FUEL CELLS RUPTURING.. ANd, hmm.. caps lock aLERT!

Edited by NBShoot_me, March 27 2013 - 05:09 PM.

[Azrael39]

I totally disagree with the OP.  Two patches ago no one played Rocketeer, Sharpshooter or used the EOC.  This game was dominated by the Scout with it's powerful shotgun, and TOW.  Worse was the lvl 25's with HEAT and TOW.

The Dev's and all of us longtime players realized this and begged them for months to change things.

So the Dev's did.  They changed the Sharpshooter and soon people began to have fun playing the SS and we saw more of them.

The next patch they changed Hellfires, and people started having fun with their Rocketeers.  This patch they also changed EOC and made it viable.  People began playing with EOC.

Last patch they changed the EOC so the mines finally work.

Now players have many options as to how they want to play Hawken.  The HEAT Scout no longer dominates this game as it used to.  The Dev's did a great job balancing weapons.  The Detonator is a powerful tool, make sure you dodge Detonator's if they are hitting you it's your fault.  Unless you are repairing, Detonator's are vicious when used on someone repairing, lol.

[Goyo]

WARNING!  Lots of replies..

burns1124, on March 27 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

Can't say I agree with most of OP's many points.

EOC can't be used in a direct fire situation (aka shooting the person trying to kill you) is ridiculous.  While I do think that the damage from a complete salvo of full charged pucks hitting a target needs to be toned down SLIGHTLY your idea posted above is, well, inelegant.  Rewarding window lickers that can't aim and instead just spam the walls/floors of an area with mines (that don't last much more than 10 seconds_ Correct me if I am wrong but pucks do not stay deployed forever, they will time out and explode on their own) is rather silly.  Tactical placement of stationary mines should be an option, not a requirement.

Raiders:  If you can't beat one, let alone most of the raiders that play, you are engaging in a poor location, and are most likely not working well with your team.  There are very few people crafty enough to make full use of the EOC/MIRV/Det alpha and hit with full damage, and it carries a signifigant risk/reward.  (It's not hard to dodge this alpha, unless you are caught completely by surprise, and that's the killed pilot's fault, NOT ADH.)  I do believe that the Detonator was originally designed with solely the Reaper in mind, and to an extreme less extent, the SS.  If the Det could maintain it's current form only for the Reaper, I'd support it being rebalanced.  

It's not going to work that way tho, it will be nerfed into the ground, and it will be a wasted 3800+ hp, and everyone will go back to using turrets.  This is also why I just keep using turrets.

Nerfing Hitscan is the silliest thing I've heard.  I'm not even going to justify this with an alternative suggestion.

I'd support some of the things Waftycrank has proposed.  The dance needs to return, speed should be increased (scaled to suit weight class), Armor increased (same), some lower damage (I think your numbers are a bit too low, and would lead to utter C CLass dominance), as well as the mechs special abilities being much less effective (Except Brusiers imo, I swear that still doesn't do jack or fuzzy bunny).

I think a lot of people need to take a deep breath, realize this game is still in BETA and that things are going to change wildly.  Making sound, calm suggestions backed by logic, and factual evidence, instead of threads saying things like "HWK isn't fun anymore" because you jumped into a higher rating game and got face rolled by someone/team.

Obviously a raider/SS/Infil team trolled you, no offense Goyo, but you sound like you are a dedicated C Class user, who has been on the receiving end of some tough games, because they all say the same thing.

Personally I think the game is still really fun when you play with the right people.

Yes, maybe my proposed solutions are not the right answer.  No worries.  This is a discussion.  I am voicing my opinion that the time to kill across the board in Hawken is way too short for the game I enjoyed playing up until this version of hawken.

FussyBadger, on March 27 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

The A Class repair complaint is strange. Do you want proportionate repair rates (ie, 10% of max per second) so that two mechs, regardless of class, will go from 20% of health to 100% health in the same amount of time_ Or do you just want slower repair rates overall_

Somehow there should be a way to balance the fact that A class repair in a fraction of the time of other classes.  A class already has the advantage of running and walking to battle faster than other classes.  C class has sooo much downtime.  It is a huge disadvantage and more to the point... not fun.

Analysis, on March 27 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

Please consider some of the implications before trying to destroy a weapon.

The EOC suggestions were late night spur of the moment ideas.  Not the right solution.  However the moral of this thread was not really about the EOC.  Time to kill across the board has become too short so that I do not enjoy Hawken as much as I did in previous version of this game.  The specifics are just brainstorming ideas on how to address the current issue I have with the quick time to kill in Hawken.

c0mad0r, on March 27 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

Without getting into any long winded weapon vs weapon arguments I am simply going to say that since Alpha1 the time to kill an opponent has gone down significantly enough to at least make it noticeable.

Simply stated:
- At least 75% of people's kills come from either ones secondary and/or their internal offensive weapon (HE, Detonator or Turrets).
- Time-between-deaths is shorter than it was from CBT's (Closed Beta) than it was from APT's (Alpha Play).

To summarize, the game is getting boring for multiple reasons... Whether it be the lack of map options, the lack of new players, the lowered skill threshold or something else; The game needs help to keep people interested.

Thank you for that information.  I started 12.12(13).12  I agree with what you have said.

IllustriousFox, on March 27 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

I don't really see these "Alpha Strikes" as being a real issue.  They seem like nothing more than exploiting an enemies incompetence.  75% of the game modes in Hawken require some level of teamwork and team dynamics.  Couple this with having a basic understanding of map awareness, and no opponent should be consistently pulling off these spikes.

The only issue with these alpha strikes stems from the varying skill levels that puts less-skilled players in an environment where they are dominated and aren't able to develop the necessary skills to thrive in this game.  Even then this isn't in issue with Alpha Strikes but more of an issue with matchmaking in general.  In my opinion, arguing about alpha strikes is essentially admitting to lack of team cohesion and map awareness(as well as the refusal to develop said attributes) and will only result in negative changes

The "alpha Strike" talk is entering the conversation merely as illustration of the direction Hawken is moving with quicker to kill times and less Mech resiliency.  I prefer longer time to kill in shooters and there are very few of those available out on the market.  This thread started because I am not enjoying this current version of Hawken as much as I have enjoyed previous versions.  Suggestions for balace have been offered and obviously some are better than others.

the_Sprawl, on March 27 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

RIght now the game feels like its in some kind of limbo state, not knowing its place, its not as fun as it was when I first got into it 12.12.12. And back then the AR and TOW was really good. Now its all burst, with the Detonator leading the charge.

The Vulcan has never been good in my time of playing. Fun yes, good no. It can't compete with the burst alternatives for cqc. And people want to nerf the Hellfires even more. Should probaly just dismantle the Bruiser then and recycle its parts. Problem is Hellfires are on both Rocketeer and Bruiser. Alot of weapons are on different classes. Imho, that will make it impossible to properly balance them all. Take one head off, another pops out.

And as an example, I really don't see why the SMC is in the game. It should be removed, and focus shifted to the AR and the Vulcan instead. Right now either weapons can't ble properly balanced because buffing one will nerf another of the three. They keep introducing new weapons and don't know how to balance them afterwards. Keep it simple is balance 1-2-3. An that Vulcan spinup time is just nonsense. Just enough time to see a scout deliver a tow and a flak before they bounce back. It should have a significantly higher dps to counteract the fact it has a spinup time. Not 20 less dps than the mini-flak AND spin-up time.

ANd ofcourse. The EOC/Raider and Slug/SS. Everyone plays them now so trying to talk them into not being opd is getting harder and harder.

Increase TTK; more utilities, less burst, more mobility. And make the sustained-fire weapons more viable.

If this game turns into an even bigger burst/pekaboo fest than it is now by introducing a healing mech to counteract poor balance of old and new weapons...idk. Perhaps time to move on.

And how, exactly, are we going to deal with a Brawler in turret mode with a Healing mech behind_ Oh, but of course, a weapon with even higher burst damage.  

Unless they actually get creative and make the healing mech blow up like a tactical nuke when destroyed....

My sentiments exactly!  

Azrael39, on March 27 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

I totally disagree with the OP.  Two patches ago no one played Rocketeer, Sharpshooter or used the EOC.  This game was dominated by the Scout with it's powerful shotgun, and TOW.  Worse was the lvl 25's with HEAT and TOW.

The Dev's and all of us longtime players realized this and begged them for months to change things.

So the Dev's did.  They changed the Sharpshooter and soon people began to have fun playing the SS and we saw more of them.

The next patch they changed Hellfires, and people started having fun with their Rocketeers.  This patch they also changed EOC and made it viable.  People began playing with EOC.

Last patch they changed the EOC so the mines finally work.

Now players have many options as to how they want to play Hawken.  The HEAT Scout no longer dominates this game as it used to.  The Dev's did a great job balancing weapons.  The Detonator is a powerful tool, make sure you dodge Detonator's if they are hitting you it's your fault.  Unless you are repairing, Detonator's are vicious when used on someone repairing, lol.

I agree!  I love the changes and fixes to the lesser used weapons but the result is that combat time now has instantanous deaths and that is too similar to every other  first person shooter out there for my liking.  Big Mech robots should survive a little longer than a soft human. Now we just need to tone the damage down across the board or increase mech armor across the board.  Or find a way to artificially increase the time to kill anything in Hawken because for me it is more fun to actualy be in combat instead of repairing or running back from base.

[Timber_Wolf]

+1 to OP.

I haven't bothered to read the whole thread, but, here's my two bits.
TTK has gotten shorter and shorter as the game has gone on, and I don't really understand why.  Fights in alpha seemed to take a while, although it probably has a lot to do with us getting better at the game, but items like the detonator have definitely increased it dramatically.  I have no problems with hellfire damage, but I just don't like them anymore.  The way they fire just seems too tight, and not like the weapons I loved in alpha.  But that's not what this thread is about, so I digress.

I don't mind hitscan weapons, as I feel they have a place, however, and I don't think ALL raider weapons are busted.  The bolt and re-flak feel alright, but it's hard to tell with how silly the EOC is.  The MIRV is definitely OP and the GL function doesn't see enough use.  The idea of increasing the GL damage slightly, while heavily hitting the MIRV damage has already been proposed multiple times and I support that.

Detonator is blatantly busted, and makes the HE nade's existence pointless.

C class repair rates are pretty sad, but I don't really mind it as they, typically, have a harder-hitting weapon combination to make up for it.  Unfortunately, that's gone out the window with the bursty B's, specifically the raider and sharpshooter.  

TTK speed is, by far, the biggest thing killing the game for me as well, when I can actually get into a match within my skill bracket.  Making underused weapons more enjoyable is great, and I fully support it, and patches will probably always cause some 'flavor of the month' syndrome in any game, but the movement towards burst and lower TTK, especially with the introduction of the new healer mech which will also increase the NEED for burst, might just totally kill the game for me.

[curlupanddie]

While I understand the frustration of healing slow as a c class, if you increase it to some kind of proportionate rate, c classes will be able to sit and heal faster than solo mechs could kill, basically making it unkillable 1v1.

[Analysis]

If we are just going to focus on TTK I'm against slower times for the following reason. Getting high multi-kills is already a difficult task do to overheating. If the kill times are increased then multi-kills beyond doubles will be almost nonexistent. I need my Super Kill back.

[Timber_Wolf]

Analysis, on March 27 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

If we are just going to focus on TTK I'm against slower times for the following reason. Getting high multi-kills is already a difficult task do to overheating. If the kill times are increased then multi-kills beyond doubles will be almost nonexistent. I need my Super Kill back.

If this is a serious post, this is the worst reason I think I could possibly hear for wanting low TTK.
Just saiyan.

Edited by Timber_Wolf, March 27 2013 - 08:24 PM.

[Sethendal]

Sadly, while I love Hawken for many reasons, I agree with the OP.

For me, a relatively new Hawken player, the curve seems awful unrewarding as I near 1700 as matches have become less and less fun and more frustrating for me as my chance to learn from my losses becomes harder with instagib-like deaths and my ability to at least run with friends is nearly impossible due to a rather poor joining/matchmaking service.

Again, I love the game in a lot of ways (art, community, etc) but I've been struggling to find the enjoyment as of late as after about a month in, I'm trying to learn the ropes without feeling like I'm spending my leisure time resisting the urge to smash my keyboard every time some experienced pilot 1-2 punches my paper mech into oblivion

[MojoNixon]

Good discussion, although I think its all a little bit in vain.  Your not going to eliminate quick deaths from this game ever, especially in the main team game modes.  If a team is working correctly your focusing fire and taking down each mech methodically. One on ones occur mainly when respawned players are rejoining the herd or an overzealous player gets baited away from the group.  Anything less than instantly taking a mech out is sub optimal, that's simply the way it is.

Its really hard to nail down what will make someone enjoy a game, or exactly at what point someone stops liking it.  Unfortunately many of these posts try to heap inordinate amount of blame on burst weapons when usually its the fact that this player is now entering a phase of more competitive play in which they die and lose games more often.  Your not going to make people feel better about this, it is for them to deal with loss and change their strategies that worked when the population was newer.  Manage your frustration and I assure you your gameplay will improve.

While burst damage has been given a boost recently (refer to Beeman or AJKs tiring statistical sagas) it should by no means be analyzed in a vacuum.  Factoring wild cards like the detonator into the equation is silly because it only applies to the first battle you use it in, glossing over the reality that these things are on timers (personally I'd go back to the 1 use per life way it was).

I applaud some of the newer forum users standing up to our vocal veteran base- it can be all gloom and doom from a few of their mouths but there are plenty that have confidence with the developers implementations.  Remember all the crying over the emp_  Watch those tears evaporate as these very players start using the emp to counter technician chains, leading to a decrease in detonator usage.

[KyRoS]

I've slowed down quite a bit as well. Partly because I'm playing other stuff, but also it's related to the mechanics of the game. I still love the game, but it seems most games has at least one guy who just decimates everyone. It's usually a scout, infiltrator or raider, who come in, burst me down with one volley, then scuttle away. Is it because they are joining on friends_ My rating is like 1780, but some of these guys must be way up over 2k that are in these games.

[AUTOAL]

4.5 maps for 4 mounths have no fun at all

[Amisto]

Ok, this game is not getting boring, maybe you are getting bored of it, here is a tip, take a break. Now onto the argument's.  SS is gettign toned down next patch, they specifically are targeting it's burst potential, issue solved.  Moving on.  

Raider is not op, it is slow compared to an A class, yeah it has an ability to make it fast, but if you are in say an infiltrator, you can also use your ability to surprise attack, or disenagage, or a scout you are more maneuverable and you have more fuel endurance... Ideally i would say Raider is best vs Medium and Heavy mechs, esp if it is running an EOC.

I would even say that infill (EOC or HEAT) and Heat Scout are stronger than Raiders.

Eoc - This weapon is at a pretty good spot honestly.  It is great vs Heavies  it is weak vs Light Class mech's, unless you are really smart with it, IE, you shoot the floor where you want to deny the enemy, or where you think the enemy will go, then he runs over your mines, this is the best way to use EOC vs Light classes.  Great Area Deny weapon.

Nothing compares to the HEAT though, this weapon is in my opinion the best weapon in the game, the combination of  range, indirect damage/splash, and low heat usage allows this weapon in the hands of a good player to get the most effective kill death ratio in most situations, IE it is the most versatile weapon.  Their are of course more specific scenario's where you might want a different weapon, but for the most part, this weapon can do well on any map.  

Hellfires, I feel they are pretty strong, on maps like Bazaar, it simply owns.  I would not mind a slight reduction in it's damage.  A couple of rocketeer's can do some pretty serious damage.

Again, if you are bored, take a break.

Edited by Amisto, March 28 2013 - 10:31 AM.

[BlackCephie]

All damage should be decreased proportionately across the board.

[Sylhiri]

BlackCephie, on March 28 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

All damage should be decreased proportionately across the board.

Then I can heal faster then someone shooting me with the SMC, sweettttt....