136 replies to this topic

[Gruncor]

The relationship between the DPS weapons damage sustained and burst is correct, but it seems wrong not because of the weapons themselves, but by the number of dodges which can be practically used often then. The dodge this game was designed to prevent damage burst, however, in the current stage of the game it is actually benefiting the mechs that have burst damage, weapon damage as fast and high can be fired with less risk by combining two dodges . Dodge in Hawken reminds me of what happened with the artillery in World of Tanks (it was designed to solve a problem of camping and just getting worse, but even the WG acknowledged his mistake and now in 8.6 there will be a nerf really good at arty to make it less threatening and more tactical).
My suggestion is to improve the balance appears to Hawken adding a cooldown greater for the Dodge, but of course compensating mechs A and B through a good gain Armor (HP). A nerf to dodge even become more viable C-Mechs, including making it more useful special abilities.

[Goyo]

What about combining thruster/fuel/heat into one stat in which this single stat C's have more of than B's and A's have the least of,

Might be a solid way to give C class some love and make A's less dominant.

Edit: Would get rid of a lot of this running and gunning that isn't really feasible in big battle robots.  You either move fast or you are shooting a lot.  Not both.  The counter argument to this change is that it would further make team play OP.  Is that a bad thing_

Edited by Goyo, May 28 2013 - 03:28 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Oh God.
Please let's not suggest another nerf to the dodge. It already got nerfed hard on Open Beta launch...

And the last thing this game needs is for it to get slower, which in turn makes it easier and it's already stupidly easy for high-skill players.

Also, the WEAPONS are the problem, why not balance the WEAPONS instead of messing around with the MOVEMENT system_
The relationship between burst and DPS is actually not at all well balanced or correct. One of the major reasons is that DPS weapons are rivaled by burst weapons in DPS. That's right. Burst weapons are just at good at DPS weapons at DPSing. This is a problem because that means they're just plain better than DPS weapons. It means they can do the same amount of damage, in the same amount of time, but with less exposure.

In order to balance the relationship between burst and sustained weaponry, sustained weaponry must be doing more DPS than burst weaponry. If it does, then sustained weaponry has the advantage at being a quicker killer if you can connect a majority of your shots and keep your target in your sights. It allows both types of weapons to be equally viable, but in different circumstances.

[Goyo]

My suggestion kinda side skirts his proposed suggestion and it triggered a different Idea.

I agree with you AJK,  But, in addition to the whole mobility/burst/sustained DPS stuff, I also see class imbalance stuff as well.

[Nept]

I often miss the days where games like UT and Quake were made, touched up here and there with the occasional patch, and then players DEALT WITH IT.

[Leonhardt]

Nept, on May 28 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

I often miss the days where games like UT and Quake were made, touched up here and there with the occasional patch, and then players DEALT WITH IT.

I think you mean the good ol' days when games were a wonder of computer programming and players were not whinny little girls.

[slowrider]

Quote

My suggestion is to improve the balance appears to Hawken adding a cooldown greater for the Dodge

Please no!Dodge cooldown is fine and very useful for smaller mechs.Makes close range skirmish against bigger and stronger mechs more intense It all boils down to know when to run,and throw in supportive defenses.Like they say"It's the pilot not the mech."or dodge

Edited by slowrider, May 28 2013 - 04:01 PM.

[Gruncor]

slowrider, on May 28 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

Quote

[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]My suggestion is to improve the balance appears to Hawken adding a cooldown greater for the Dodge[/font]

Please no!Dodge cooldown is fine and very useful for smaller mechs.Makes close range skirmish against bigger and stronger mechs more intense It all boils down to know when to run,and throw in supportive defenses.Like they say"It's the pilot not the mech."or dodge

Yes, I love using my dodge with my Reaper, but I know when something is wrong when I can kill a Mech-C with full HP and I still go out with 250. I long to kill (low damage per shot), but I can.

Edited by Gruncor, May 28 2013 - 04:44 PM.

[Gruncor]

AsianJoyKiller, on May 28 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

Oh God.
Please let's not suggest another nerf to the dodge. It already got nerfed hard on Open Beta launch...

And the last thing this game needs is for it to get slower, which in turn makes it easier and it's already stupidly easy for high-skill players.

Also, the WEAPONS are the problem, why not balance the WEAPONS instead of messing around with the MOVEMENT system_
The relationship between burst and DPS is actually not at all well balanced or correct. One of the major reasons is that DPS weapons are rivaled by burst weapons in DPS. That's right. Burst weapons are just at good at DPS weapons at DPSing. This is a problem because that means they're just plain better than DPS weapons. It means they can do the same amount of damage, in the same amount of time, but with less exposure.

In order to balance the relationship between burst and sustained weaponry, sustained weaponry must be doing more DPS than burst weaponry. If it does, then sustained weaponry has the advantage at being a quicker killer if you can connect a majority of your shots and keep your target in your sights. It allows both types of weapons to be equally viable, but in different circumstances.

And it will solve the problem of C-Mechs when_ I'm talking about a balancing not only weapons, but also the feasibility of classes and skills. Also the dodge can save you from a single burst damage, but weapons DPS are more constant and can be fired immediately after the target used the dodge. It's all relative.

Edited by Gruncor, May 28 2013 - 05:10 PM.

[Beemann]

Nept, on May 28 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

I often miss the days where games like UT and Quake were made, touched up here and there with the occasional patch, and then players DEALT WITH IT.

To be fair, QLive made a few changes to Quake`s weapon balance, and balancing something like 6-8 weapons is much easier than balancing 20+
Speaking of which, isn`t it a bit sad that few games have come close to the skill ceiling Quake can provide with a movement bug and 6 weapons_

Gruncor, on May 28 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

And it will solve the problem of C-Mechs when_ I'm talking about a balancing not only weapons, but also the feasibility of classes and skills. Also the dodge can save you from a single burst damage, but weapons DPS are more constant and can be fired immediately after the target used the dodge. It's all relative.

C mechs need to be faster and the mech types (A B and C) need more health overall. Additionally, burst weapons should be timed appropriately. If you can't hit your opponent with an explosive weapon, it's not the fault of the weapon. There's dodge cooldown already to assist you, and boosting forward to mitigate lack of movement during the cooldown shouldn't affect you if you line up your shots correctly.... plus it uses a lot of fuel

[AsianJoyKiller]

Gruncor, on May 28 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on May 28 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

Oh God.
Please let's not suggest another nerf to the dodge. It already got nerfed hard on Open Beta launch...

And the last thing this game needs is for it to get slower, which in turn makes it easier and it's already stupidly easy for high-skill players.

Also, the WEAPONS are the problem, why not balance the WEAPONS instead of messing around with the MOVEMENT system_
The relationship between burst and DPS is actually not at all well balanced or correct. One of the major reasons is that DPS weapons are rivaled by burst weapons in DPS. That's right. Burst weapons are just at good at DPS weapons at DPSing. This is a problem because that means they're just plain better than DPS weapons. It means they can do the same amount of damage, in the same amount of time, but with less exposure.

In order to balance the relationship between burst and sustained weaponry, sustained weaponry must be doing more DPS than burst weaponry. If it does, then sustained weaponry has the advantage at being a quicker killer if you can connect a majority of your shots and keep your target in your sights. It allows both types of weapons to be equally viable, but in different circumstances.

And it will solve the problem of C-Mechs when_ I'm talking about a balancing not only weapons, but also the feasibility of classes and skills. Also the dodge can save you from a single burst damage, but weapons DPS are more constant and can be shoot immediately after the target used the dodge. It's all relative.

I didn't say that it solves the problem of C-Class mechs.
But if we're going in that direction, your suggestion doesn't help C-Classes at all, and in fact puts them at even more of a disadvantage  In addition, reducing the frequency at which we can dash will actually put more importance on burst damage because it places greater importance on using dashes in an only-defensive manner. This means more time spent in cover while dashing is on cooldown.

Additionally your suggestion does nothing to address the fact that burst weaponry is just as good in a DPS battle as a DPS weapon is, so you'll still have the problem of burst weaponry being the superior choice due to greater utility.

And for the record, you're argument that about DPS being better against dodging is flawed. If you watch high-skill players, they often will wait for their opponent to dodge before unleashing an attack, or they can react fast enough to fire where the person is dashing to. If you're good, you can even make burst weaponry work against a person mid-dodge. And frankly, the suddenness of dashing can also be enough to throw off the tracking of a sustained weapon, making the attacker lose a significant portion of their DPS, equal to or greater than the damage that of a burst weapon. Dashing can be nearly as effective (or ineffective) for sustained weaponry as burst weaponry.

Anyway, if you want C-Classes to be relevant and on par with the other weight classes, nerfing the dash is not what is going to help. The greatest flaws of a C-Classes is the lack of an appreciable health advantage (Being able to take 1 extra TOW compared to a B Class is not a great advantage in comparison to it's relatively meager mobility combined with a giant hitbox) to counterbalance it's relatively abysmal movement speeds and a complete lack of viable abilities.

[Gruncor]

AsianJoyKiller, on May 28 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

Gruncor, on May 28 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on May 28 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

Oh God.
Please let's not suggest another nerf to the dodge. It already got nerfed hard on Open Beta launch...

And the last thing this game needs is for it to get slower, which in turn makes it easier and it's already stupidly easy for high-skill players.

Also, the WEAPONS are the problem, why not balance the WEAPONS instead of messing around with the MOVEMENT system_
The relationship between burst and DPS is actually not at all well balanced or correct. One of the major reasons is that DPS weapons are rivaled by burst weapons in DPS. That's right. Burst weapons are just at good at DPS weapons at DPSing. This is a problem because that means they're just plain better than DPS weapons. It means they can do the same amount of damage, in the same amount of time, but with less exposure.

In order to balance the relationship between burst and sustained weaponry, sustained weaponry must be doing more DPS than burst weaponry. If it does, then sustained weaponry has the advantage at being a quicker killer if you can connect a majority of your shots and keep your target in your sights. It allows both types of weapons to be equally viable, but in different circumstances.

And it will solve the problem of C-Mechs when_ I'm talking about a balancing not only weapons, but also the feasibility of classes and skills. Also the dodge can save you from a single burst damage, but weapons DPS are more constant and can be shoot immediately after the target used the dodge. It's all relative.

I didn't say that it solves the problem of C-Class mechs.
But if we're going in that direction, your suggestion doesn't help C-Classes at all, and in fact puts them at even more of a disadvantage  In addition, reducing the frequency at which we can dash will actually put more importance on burst damage because it places greater importance on using dashes in an only-defensive manner. This means more time spent in cover while dashing is on cooldown.

Additionally your suggestion does nothing to address the fact that burst weaponry is just as good in a DPS battle as a DPS weapon is, so you'll still have the problem of burst weaponry being the superior choice due to greater utility.

And for the record, you're argument that about DPS being better against dodging is flawed. If you watch high-skill players, they often will wait for their opponent to dodge before unleashing an attack, or they can react fast enough to fire where the person is dashing to. If you're good, you can even make burst weaponry work against a person mid-dodge. And frankly, the suddenness of dashing can also be enough to throw off the tracking of a sustained weapon, making the attacker lose a significant portion of their DPS, equal to or greater than the damage that of a burst weapon. Dashing can be nearly as effective (or ineffective) for sustained weaponry as burst weaponry.

Anyway, if you want C-Classes to be relevant and on par with the other weight classes, nerfing the dash is not what is going to help. The greatest flaws of a C-Classes is the lack of an appreciable health advantage (Being able to take 1 extra TOW compared to a B Class is not a great advantage in comparison to it's relatively meager mobility combined with a giant hitbox) to counterbalance it's relatively abysmal movement speeds and a complete lack of viable abilities.

Dodge is to be used at the time the weapon is fired burst just to avoid damage from it, but the actual gameplay the player can use the dodge before, at the time, and even after the attack indiscriminately and almost straight (not I see the strategy and tactics) and it is hurting the enemy weapons DPS because of the damage can be lost if many shots are missed because of dodges followed. Who has burst weapon in the current system has an advantage because you can shoot and hit your target and then using dodges followed to soften the enemy DPS while your weapon does not load for another shot. It is easy to see that, but as you are already playing a long time may have become accustomed to this atrocity of dodge. Actually who is being helped in the end is who has the largest recharge shooting guns

Edited by Gruncor, May 28 2013 - 05:39 PM.

[TheBouse]

Why on earth would you want to nerf the dodges_
Dodges are meant to offset the giant hitbboxes that mechs have, because even the A-Class, for all its maneuverability, is easy to hit. I typically play with a Rocketeer, and if the dodge was nerfed, it would be WAY too easy for me to hit with my Hellfire missiles. Dodging and "kiting" are essential parts of Hawken, and for C-Class mechs like me, if you were to nerf the dash, we would literally be even more slow than we already are.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Gruncor, on May 28 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

Dodge is to be used at the time the weapon is fired burst just to avoid damage from it, but the actual gameplay the player can use the dodge before, at the time, and even after the attack indiscriminately and almost straight (not I see the strategy and tactics) and it is hurting the enemy weapons DPS because of the damage can be lost if many shots are missed because of dodges followed. Who has burst weapon in the current system has an advantage because you can shoot and hit your target and then using dodges followed to soften the enemy DPS while your weapon does not load for another shot. It is easy to see that, but as you are already playing a long time may have become accustomed to this atrocity of dodge. Actually who is being helped in the end is who has the largest recharge shooting guns

I can see the gears turning in your head, and I can see that you're not properly factoring cover into the equation.

You need to do that. I can see where you're coming from, and why you may thing that nerfing dodge frequency could help, but when you factor tactics like pillar humping into it, it drastically changes how you have to look at the situation and how you have to account for cover and it's role in TTK or Sustained vs Burst.

[Goyo]

AsianJoyKiller, on May 28 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

Gruncor, on May 28 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

Dodge is to be used at the time the weapon is fired burst just to avoid damage from it, but the actual gameplay the player can use the dodge before, at the time, and even after the attack indiscriminately and almost straight (not I see the strategy and tactics) and it is hurting the enemy weapons DPS because of the damage can be lost if many shots are missed because of dodges followed. Who has burst weapon in the current system has an advantage because you can shoot and hit your target and then using dodges followed to soften the enemy DPS while your weapon does not load for another shot. It is easy to see that, but as you are already playing a long time may have become accustomed to this atrocity of dodge. Actually who is being helped in the end is who has the largest recharge shooting guns

I can see the gears turning in your head, and I can see that you're not properly factoring cover into the equation.

You need to do that. I can see where you're coming from, and why you may thing that nerfing dodge frequency could help, but when you factor tactics like pillar humping into it, it drastically changes how you have to look at the situation and how you have to account for cover and it's role in TTK or Sustained vs Burst.

If pillar humping strategies of firing and dodging were part of the same mech mechanic pool then players would have to more wisely decide between dodging, firing, or boosting.

Make heat and fuel one and the same. More simple.  

I do like a good prolonged fight but I think Hawken needs to be more proactive to make the game reward or punish mistakes. Instead of walking into hitscan garbage from reapers and SS let us decide the fights by a choice of mobility or gunfire.

Edited by Goyo, May 28 2013 - 07:23 PM.

[RedVan]

BACK TO MWO WITH YOU!  HEATHEN!

[Goyo]

RedVan, on May 28 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

BACK TO MWO WITH YOU!  HEATHEN!

Never played the game. Shrug.

Edit: I fully enjoy the Feel that Hawken has as a descendant of Exteel or Virtual On.  I do not want Hawken to become a SIM nor do I want to play a SIM.  The stuff I type is merely food for thought as to better balance Hawken,

Edited by Goyo, May 28 2013 - 07:30 PM.

[RedVan]

Goyo, on May 28 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

RedVan, on May 28 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

BACK TO MWO WITH YOU!  HEATHEN!

Never played the game. Shrug.

Edit: I fully enjoy the Feel that Hawken has as a descendant of Exteel or Virtual On.  I do not want Hawken to become a SIM nor do I want to play a SIM.  The stuff I type is merely food for thought as to better balance Hawken,

Not you, the OP ;p

[Gruncor]

Reasoning: the player who has DPS weapon could dodge and avoid COMPLETELY THE DAMAGE of any gun burst, but the player has burst weapon can totally lose damage because of dodges and could no longer reduce the damage of enemy DPS weapons by use of dodges followed. The cover ratio is useful for both varying according to the distance from damage. In fact the purpose of this change is not to make the game slower in itself, but making players choose the really right time to use the dodge. I play reaper as my main and I know how good it is extremely fast, but admit that this game is not prioritizing the strategy in relation to dodge.

Edited by Gruncor, May 29 2013 - 02:42 AM.

[dEd101]

Dodging doesn't need a nerf. c mechs need a decent ability, a slight speed buff and some more armour (or combination thereof).

burst vs sustained could use a tweak. 5% buff to sustained and 5% nerf to burst damage across the board and balance from there.