136 replies to this topic

[Gruncor]

dEd101, on May 29 2013 - 02:48 AM, said:

Dodging doesn't need a nerf. c mechs need a decent ability, a slight speed buff and some more armour (or combination thereof).

burst vs sustained could use a tweak. 5% buff to sustained and 5% nerf to burst damage across the board and balance from there.

(Irony) Yes we make C-Mechs almost as fast as A and B and give them more armor and skills that allow use shields and dodge at the same time (and still modify the damage of all weapons). Best changing only one aspect of the game that several at the same time. The change in the dodge is more easy because it alone modifies several elements in the game at the same time, including weapons, classes and abilities.

Edited by Gruncor, May 29 2013 - 03:00 AM.

[dEd101]

Gruncor, on May 29 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

dEd101, on May 29 2013 - 02:48 AM, said:

Dodging doesn't need a nerf. c mechs need a decent ability, a slight speed buff and some more armour (or combination thereof).

burst vs sustained could use a tweak. 5% buff to sustained and 5% nerf to burst damage across the board and balance from there.

(Irony) Yes we make C-Mechs almost as fast as A and B and give them more armor and skills that allow use shields and dodge at the same time (and still modify the damage of all weapons). Best changing only one aspect of the game that several at the same time. The change in the dodge is more easy because it alone modifies several elements in the game at the same time, including weapons, classes and abilities.

Slight. Small in size, degree, or amount.

Changes I have noted for c mechs have a general consensus in the forums.

Now you propose changing one of the few things that the vast majority of players are happy with. I instead proposed changes that the majority of players agree with and added an alternative idea to balance out the basic discrepencies between the weapons. Those two paragraphs can be treated as two separate ideas.

If you have not noticed just about everyone who has posted in your thread is against the idea of fiddling with the dodge mechanic or timings because itnwould lower the skill ceiling of the game.

[Gruncor]

First we already had a dodge nerf it, then the mechanics was not designed perfectly and has already undergone changes. Players accepted with time and therefore the trend is resistance in current forum. The actual mechanical advantage dodge provides rather high for the mechs-A / B, so that most high level players prefer to have a good dodge instead of armor. The loss of dodge makes C-Mechs players avoid the use of your tower. Mechs with burst damage but are the most benefited by the use of dodge to avoid damage during the slow reloading weapon. Everything is connected on only one element of the game. It has nothing to do with balancing individual mechs, weapons or classes, this is something general.

Edited by Gruncor, May 29 2013 - 07:32 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Gruncor, on May 29 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

First we already had a dodge nerf it, then the mechanics was not designed perfectly and has already undergone changes. Players accepted with time and therefore the trend is resistance in current forum.

Except it has not been accepted with time. Only some people have accepted the changes, others still oppose it. The greatest fallacy with your claim lies in the fact that a majority of the players have had nothing to accept because they only started playing after Open Beta launched, so the current movement system is the only movement system they know.
There are many of us who support rolling back the movement changes or increasing mobility, especially among the higher skilled players.

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The actual mechanical advantage dodge provides rather high for the mechs-A / B, so that most high level players prefer to have a good dodge instead of armor.

So instead of nerfing movement, why don't we make armor a viable alternative to mobility_
Nerfing the rate at which you can dodge won't change that C-Classes' armor advantage is still a terrible tradeoff for greater overall mobility, speedy repair times, and other factors.

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The loss of dodge makes C-Mechs players avoid the use of your tower.

This literally makes no sense. What do you mean by "Tower"_

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Mechs with burst damage but are the most benefited by the use of dodge to avoid damage during the slow reloading weapon. Everything is connected on only one element of the game. It has nothing to do with balancing individual mechs, weapons or classes, this is something general.

I'm sorry to tell you, but it's not that simple. Dodging is not the be-all-end-all of Hawken, and you cannot simply fix all the problems you've listed by tweaking it.

[Alastor_Crow]

Oh...Sweet Infiltrator's trousers!!!

Dodging is ONE (yes, there's more) of the main things that separates novices from experienced players. It's not just using the dodging mechanic to randomly dodge left-right-left while trying to aim. It's using the dodge/dash to gain an advantage in position and trying to disorient their tracking. Some people (most high tier players) also use wisely by watching their opponents mech torso -- if they move to the left and aim at you, you dodge to the right.

There's a lot of ways to win against your enemies. Using cover when your secondary/burst is reloading, taking quick pop-shots over bunkers by jumping, kiting opponents through a bunker/pillar, etc. Also, burst and sustained dmg (auto) weapons have their own uses and cover different playstyle. Each has their own advantages and disadvantages. And did you seriously complain about missing burst weapon shots_! You want this to turn into a straight DPS battle rather than a mixture of movement, orientation, positioning, timing, aiming, strategy, environment resourcefulness, and situation alertness_

Sorry but this is not MWO.

Edited by Alastor_Crow, May 29 2013 - 08:32 AM.

[7r1p]

Balancing a game to the point where tactical variety starts to become more uniformed is not a pleasing result.  You're pitting burst dps tactics against sustained dps tactics in a 1v1 scenerio.  I am more than positive that this is NOT what were looking for in a "team" oriented game. We want an overall dynamic game, with people filling different roles and applying different tactics.  If you take away the variety, then you'll lose audience because of the stagnant gameplay.

Edited by 7r1p, May 29 2013 - 08:37 AM.

[FakeName]

i just build my inflitrator 100% burst/glass cannon so my dodge movement is my core 'skill'.

The dodge is quite fine and the dps mechs are also fine, otherwise noone would play them. I see burst and dps mechs all over Hawken and noone ever was talking about dodging nerfs.

I see it like this: burst and dps mechs are terrain dependent. Dps mechs needs a clear area while burst mechs need areas with soemthing to hide. Also you can move your enemy tactical in a good position for example pushing him/her in a corner so your dps is very usefull, burst would in this case be very poor.

It's not a question of dodge cooldowns, it's a question of experience, skill and your willing to give this game a chance and time

Hopefully you will get a feeling what would happen if the dodge cooldown would be increased .

[dEd101]

Your solution would reduce the game to a bunch of mechs standing around and shooting each other. Dodging is one of the main mechanics that requires skill in the game. Nerf it and you reduce the skill needed to play the game.

[FakeName]

dEd101, on May 29 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Your solution would reduce the game to a bunch of mechs standing around and shooting each other. Dodging is one of the main mechanics that requires skill in the game. Nerf it and you reduce the skill needed to play the game.

exactly

[AsianJoyKiller]

FakeName, on May 29 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

The dodge is quite fine and the dps mechs are also fine, otherwise noone would play them. I see burst and dps mechs all over Hawken and noone ever was talking about dodging nerfs.

I see it like this: burst and dps mechs are terrain dependent. Dps mechs needs a clear area while burst mechs need areas with soemthing to hide. Also you can move your enemy tactical in a good position for example pushing him/her in a corner so your dps is very usefull, burst would in this case be very poor.

It's not a question of dodge cooldowns, it's a question of experience, skill and your willing to give this game a chance and time

Sustained damage, DPS mechs as you called it, is not fine. The relative balance between burst and sustained damage is way off.

The fallacy of your first argument is that you imply that popularity is synonymous with balance and power. This is false. While people have a tendency to play using the most powerful elements, it is not the only thing that makes things popular. There are things like aesthetic appeal (the "cool" factor), ease of use or ease of accessibility that cannot be ignored.

One of the major factors in the popularity of sustained damage mechs is the fact that everybody starts with one. No matter who you are, everyone has a CR-T mech available to them. It's a friendly, easy to use mech, that is fairly effective no matter what skill level you play at.

Then there's the fact that sustained damage is easier to use than burst damage. It's much more forgiving, allowing you to miss shots here and there without an appreciable drop in damage. And because you're spewing out a large volume of bullets, they don't require the same precision that many of the more powerful burst weapons do. In addition to that, most of the sustained weapons feature spread, which further lowers the need for precision accuracy. Simply put, sustained weapons are friendly for less skilled players.

As for the cool factor, weapons like the Vulcan are popular just because of what type of weapon they are. Statistically, there's absolutely no reason to use a Vulcan over several other options, because it requires a higher amount of skill and has less utility while being statistically mediocre, but because it's effectively a minigun, people still love it.

Fact is, most sustained weapons' DPS is rivaled by burst weapons' DPS. That means that for those with the skill to regularly land hits with burst weaponry, burst is clearly the superior choice. You can output the same amount of damage in the same amount of time, but you can do that while putting yourself at less risk.

As for the matter of terrain, that does play into it, but keep in mind, Hawken is generally played in close quarters areas that are fairly cover heavy. Sustained weapons can do well in open areas, but most maps feature plenty of cover, and most objective points feature cover that is the perfect playground for burst weaponry. Basically, the maps favor burst weapons in comparison to sustained.

[Gruncor]

This game is now in open beta to how many months_ How many players are online on all servers_ 500-600_ These are good numbers_ The game is a dangerous path and staff think it's going well.

[LONEDEADWOLF]

I see one major inbalance and its the fact that to many mechs have the same, If not more firepower then the heavy support groups that should have them in the first place. Smaller mechs should have to pay for that power. Crack bunny with heat.Tiny mechs(REAPER) with zoom. Long range  C class(ROCKETEER) with out the zoom_   A and B have run a muck  with no price tag on there firepower no faster over heat and no slowing them down_ C class has been paying heavy prices for the armor that vanishes into thin air fast. Lets see( slow dodge-slow boost-slow regen of fuel-and slowest walking mechs). Now why arent the other classes paying to carry heavy firepower_ No faster over heat. They are not slowed down either. What has A and B class  paid. Dont say armor cause thats why they are faster. Some days it feels like im shooting BBs at a tank.The only mech thats playable in C class is BRAWLER. I would love to see them make the other classes pay for the weapons they carry. You are some what correct. Some people dodge so fast it doesnt seem real. Hey but the Devs have a plan. I just hope next patch they do get some kind of balances corrected.

[FakeName]

@ AsianJoxKiller:
Yes you are right about the popularity and yes everyone starts with the beginner mech wich has sustained damage so_

If I understood you right sustained damaged is then for less skilled palyers and burst for theskilled palyers isn't it_ So why shouldn't burst damage be more rewarding and be simply better than sustained damage_ Skill should still be more rewarding than just the easy to play weapons and so on.

@LONEDEADWOLF
They do pay for their firepower for example the Zerker, easier to play but has a lot of heat trouble, however, it's sustained damage. Burst damage simply doesn't heat because it's not spammed on the battlefield.
The heating also heats quite much (as the name says) and don't forget the normal cannons like AR or the submachine gun, they heat alot.
The EOC Repeater doesn't heat so much at all but if the fight lasts long you will get also heat problems with the EOC.

"What has A or B class paid_"

1. Low armor
2. the more firepower you have, the less movement and armor you have on an A/B class
3. The zerker for example can be played on defence but has less damage wich can be increased again for a short time by his ability, however, still either balanced or squishy

"The only mech C class mech wich is playable is the BRAWLER"

Wrong. I started to play the Grenadeer and I'm quite good with it, also I tried out the Rocketeer wich can be also very fun. The C classes are just no 1vs1 mechs. Most effective in Teamfights like you find in Siege or TDM.

@Gruncor

Are you really so impatient_ The Beta phase of a game could take over a year. Try to programm a game and you will fail even in the beginning: finding Ideas for a new game. It's a huge task to create a popular game without performence issues and fun for the most players. And this needs alot of time. Otherwise you will end up in a classic Indie mini game wich can be found for example in Armorgames ...

Edited by FakeName, May 29 2013 - 11:33 AM.

[Gruncor]

Being realistic ... When I saw the announcement of Hawken in my nvidia driver did not think twice about playing, but when I started I saw that there were few players playing despite it being f2p and have some publicity. Hence, I wondered why a game of this magnitude is with so little public even after the open beta launched in several months_ This game is pleasing only a small portion of players he saw ... No use trying to hide reality. Now change the gameplay or the game and the business will continue to get worse if not the same as it is now. You need to take strong attitudes and not simply give more of the same.

Edited by Gruncor, May 29 2013 - 11:43 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

FakeName, on May 29 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

If I understood you right sustained damaged is then for less skilled palyers and burst for theskilled palyers isn't it_ So why shouldn't burst damage be more rewarding and be simply better than sustained damage_ Skill should still be more rewarding than just the easy to play weapons and so on.

First off, in general. This does not hold true in every case.

Besides that, I was only talking about skill in regards to aiming. While they require less skill in the department of accuracy and timing, they require more advanced skills in positioning and movement. But even if you move and position with the best, using sustained weaponry still doesn't net you any greater benefits.
That said, tracking accurately, especially with a movement system that allows for rapid changes like Hawken's, isn't a trivial skill. Even more so when you consider the fact that we have a turn rate cap. Judging by watching gameplay videos, most average players aren't able to track a dashing target.

Not to mention, all sustained weaponry doesn't have to require less skill to use. Consider the Vulcan. It requires timing and a good sense of where it's optimal range is at. It's more difficult to use than the Slug or the Flak, yet the results it yields are far inferior.

Then consider depth and variety. Having sustained weaponry be on equal standing allows for more and greater strategies and tactics, allowing for greater depth and variety, and allows people to tailor their experience to further fit their playstyle. Why should players all be pigeon-holed into using burst only weapons and playing peek-a-boo when they reach the higher tiers of play if they want to be effective_

Gruncor, on May 29 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Being realistic ... When I saw the announcement of Hawken in my nvidia driver did not think twice about playing, but when I started I saw that there were few players playing despite it being f2p and have some publicity. Hence, I wondered why a game of this magnitude is with so little public even after the open beta launched in several months_ This game is pleasing only a small portion of players he saw ... No use trying to hide reality. Now change the gameplay or the game and the business will continue to get worse if not the same as it is now. You need to take strong attitudes and not simply give more of the same.

You've done absolutely nothing to prove your ideas would make the game more popular.
You've merely asserted it, without backing this claim up, which is ridiculous when all evidence is in fact pointing to the conclusion that implementing such a change would be harmful to the population.

[Gruncor]

AsianJoyKiller, on May 29 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

FakeName, on May 29 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

If I understood you right sustained damaged is then for less skilled palyers and burst for theskilled palyers isn't it_ So why shouldn't burst damage be more rewarding and be simply better than sustained damage_ Skill should still be more rewarding than just the easy to play weapons and so on.

First off, in general. This does not hold true in every case.

Besides that, I was only talking about skill in regards to aiming. While they require less skill in the department of accuracy and timing, they require more advanced skills in positioning and movement. But even if you move and position with the best, using sustained weaponry still doesn't net you any greater benefits.
That said, tracking accurately, especially with a movement system that allows for rapid changes like Hawken's, isn't a trivial skill. Even more so when you consider the fact that we have a turn rate cap. Judging by watching gameplay videos, most average players aren't able to track a dashing target.

Not to mention, all sustained weaponry doesn't have to require less skill to use. Consider the Vulcan. It requires timing and a good sense of where it's optimal range is at. It's more difficult to use than the Slug or the Flak, yet the results it yields are far inferior.

Then consider depth and variety. Having sustained weaponry be on equal standing allows for more and greater strategies and tactics, allowing for greater depth and variety, and allows people to tailor their experience to further fit their playstyle. Why should players all be pigeon-holed into using burst only weapons and playing peek-a-boo when they reach the higher tiers of play if they want to be effective_

Gruncor, on May 29 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Being realistic ... When I saw the announcement of Hawken in my nvidia driver did not think twice about playing, but when I started I saw that there were few players playing despite it being f2p and have some publicity. Hence, I wondered why a game of this magnitude is with so little public even after the open beta launched in several months_ This game is pleasing only a small portion of players he saw ... No use trying to hide reality. Now change the gameplay or the game and the business will continue to get worse if not the same as it is now. You need to take strong attitudes and not simply give more of the same.

You've done absolutely nothing to prove your ideas would make the game more popular.
You've merely asserted it, without backing this claim up, which is ridiculous when all evidence is in fact pointing to the conclusion that implementing such a change would be harmful to the population.

If a game is elitist and away many potential players, it does not need to be changed_ What is the reason for the game being rejected_ The system of dodge ... There is another thing. Many people do not feel at ease and very few will have the patience to get used to the combat system Hawken based on ultra-fast maneuvers further in first person camera. That is the harsh reality of F2P: or like the first time or is replaced immediately. Hawken had support from Nvidia and yet still did not take off despite being almost 6 months in open beta. I understand that game is still in Beta, but the growth of the public at this stage should be quite high and I do not see it Hawken. Today I looked all servers and the majority of the rooms are empty or incomplete stocking.

Edited by Gruncor, May 29 2013 - 12:17 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Gruncor, on May 29 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

If a game is elitist and away many potential players, it does not need to be changed_ What is the reason for the game being rejected_

Can you prove that Hawken is "elitist" and that many potential players are being driven away due to said elitism_

What are the statistics on the amount of players that are being driven away_

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The system dodge ... There is another thing. Many people do not feel at ease and very few will have the patience to get used to the combat system Hawken based on ultra-fast maneuvers further in first person camera.

What are you basing this on_
You keep making claims, but you don't back them with any proof. Just because you say something, that doesn't mean it's true.

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That is the harsh reality of F2P: or like the first time or is replaced immediately. Hawken had support from Nvidia and yet still did not take off despite being almost 6 months in open beta. I understand that game is still in Beta, but the growth of the public at this stage should be quite high and I do not see it Hawken. Today I looked all servers and the majority of the rooms are empty or incomplete stocking.

Hawken has support from Nvidia, but you're ignoring the fact that outside of one promotion tied to a graphics card, they've done almost nothing in the way of actually advertising the game in a consistent and widespread manner.

[Gruncor]

When a player wins a bonus good at a new game it will not download it to see what you can do with your winnings and end up experiencing the game_ How many video cards do you think were sold in the period by Nvidia_ Some thousands and how many players are in Hawken now_ We're talking about a game in beta that has no official statistics, but we can have a basis through observation of his servers. It is not hard to look at the total population against the number of rooms that are few people or even empty. That at least shows a lack of public interest in the game

[dEd101]

Right I've had enough. Time to sum up this thread.

/Start
OP:
Nerf dodge.

Everybody else:
No.
/End

[RedVan]

He's right. Lets remove dodge. We can also make it 2d side scrolling turn based while we're at it.

And make them tanks rather than mechs, as that's more realistic.

Wait, someone already made that game...