583 replies to this topic

[erathic]

I've never played COD either, seiing the millions of copy it sells every year I don't think that it's the game itselft that is blamed, it's just the fact that it's a very "mainstream game" made to attract millions of trigger happy teenagers, at least that's what PC gamers thinks maybe (and BF players lol).

[KaszaWspraju]

BF ends on Battlefield 2 and 2142.

[Exeon]

They have been using stuff from other games for quite a while now, its nothing new.  They also took the ability to 180 in the air quickly from other FPS's as well, they took the no fall damage internal from some random FPS that doesn't have fall damage that I cant think of, they took the idea for the reconstructor from Tribes, they took the power surger idea from mario, they took the idea of armor fusor from some other game that gives you health on kills. Seriously, there is very little comparison between hawken and CoD besides the fact that they added an internal that performs the same action as something in that game, WOAH SO SIMILAR! not really.

Edited by Exeon, August 28 2013 - 11:05 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Exeon, on August 28 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

They have been using stuff from other games for quite a while now, its nothing new.  They also took the ability to 180 in the air quickly from other FPS's as well, they took the no fall damage internal from some random FPS that doesn't have fall damage that I cant think of, they used the reconstructor from Tribes, they took the power surger idea from mario, they took the idea of armor fusor from some other game that gives you health on kills. Seriously, there is very little comparison between hawken and CoD besides the fact that they added an internal that performs the same action as something in that game, WOAH SO SIMILAR! not really.

That only true if you narrow your focus down to those small, precise details about specific mechanics. At that point, you might as well also cite the fact you pilot a mech instead of a soldier as one more reason Hawken can't be compared to CoD.

Expand your focus a bit.
I'm talking about the direction 1.0 takes to cater towards casual players. That's why I'm saying it's going to get compared to CoD a lot. Because the game is being dumbed down to appeal to a more casual, mainstream audience so drastically.

[ChemicalX]

I have hope for this patch! I have a feeling that most of you look at the changes being placed and are thinking about all the possable bad that can come of it. Who knows! it might actually make game play more competitive! Give it a few months and lets some people work out builds and strats. What makes a game competitive is the fan base! So lets make it competitive!

All im trying to say is it sounds as if you guys are saying its not going to be competitive because its simple.....which in my opinion is wrong.

EDIT: Also remember that this is a SMALL COMPANY!!! they are doing a fuzzy bunny fantastic job if you ask me for how big there crew is!

Edited by ChemicalX, August 28 2013 - 11:19 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

ChemicalX, on August 28 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

All im trying to say is it sounds as if you guys are saying its not going to be competitive because its simple.....which in my opinion is wrong.

Except it's not being made any more simple than it was before.
If anything, it's been made more complex.

Nobody in their right mind would argue "simple = less competitive". The top competitive shooters are the ones that are the most simple. Just look at Quake or Unreal. However, making a game "easy" by lowering the skill floor and ceiling_ That'll definitely have an impact on competitive prospects.

And for the record, fans alone do not make a game competitively viable. Solid mechanics are needed. Ones that allow for large amounts of personal skill growth and don't cater to the lowest common denominator. If you didn't need those, then CoD or Halo wouldn't be such complete jokes as eSports. Even TF2 suffers, despite the extensive ban lists and the mechanics being specifically altered for competitive play. Each of those are games built for casuals, and the one that alters the game to be more competitive still struggles.

[Krellus]

if the game needs to go a little more casual to attract a decent playerbase, then i applaud such changes. no point making a game that wont survive. and i want hawken to thrive baby yeah!

[Gunmoku]

AsianJoyKiller, on August 28 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

And for the record, fans alone do not make a game competitively viable. Solid mechanics are needed. Ones that allow for large amounts of personal skill growth and don't cater to the lowest common denominator. If you didn't need those, then CoD or Halo wouldn't be such complete jokes as eSports. Even TF2 suffers, despite the extensive ban lists and the mechanics being specifically altered for competitive play. Each of those are games built for casuals, and the one that alters the game to be more competitive still struggles.

I can kind of see how CoD is not a good competitive shooter, what with terrible balance problems, but Halo_  Even though Halo 4 or Reach doesn't feel as tightly tuned as say Halo CE or Halo 3 did, they're still holding official competitions for Halo 4 definitely (Microsoft themselves are right now doing the Global Championship eliminations right now).  But I suppose it comes down to taste, but I think Halo 4 still is a very viable competitive shooter.

Hawken, if they play their cards right, will be just as viable in the competition circuit should organizations like ESL or MLG decide to adopt them into their game rotations.  E-sports really needs better variety these days, as watching DOTA 2, League of Legends, and Starcraft all the damn time is getting a bit stale.  I'd love to see a large-scale Hawken tourney once the "1.0" update hits.

[Sylhiri]

Gunmoku, on August 28 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

I'd love to see a large-scale Hawken tourney once the "1.0" update hits.

Would only happen if 1.0 fixes the glaring issues that we have right now, which has been preventing another large-scale tourney since OB hit.

[ChemicalX]

AsianJoyKiller, on August 28 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

ChemicalX, on August 28 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

All im trying to say is it sounds as if you guys are saying its not going to be competitive because its simple.....which in my opinion is wrong.

Except it's not being made any more simple than it was before.
If anything, it's been made more complex.

Which is why im confused that some posts say this patch will make it less competitive!_

[N0stalgia]

I find that you shouldn't necessarily listen to the nay-sayers, shoveling their opinions out as facts. Lets do a retrospective.

I was and avid UT/2k3/2k4 player and I remember that when those games launched, they needed quite a bit of tweaking and several mods to make them competitive. Bear in mind, those games were created by a major studio over long periods of time and they have quite simple game mechanics when compared to Hawken. Everybody moved the same speed, everybody started with the same life, and every weapon was available provided you could get to it. The meta game was equally as simple. Time the items and time the shields so you could grab them before your opponent can so you have the upper hand. The nuance was in which weapon was optimal to use at which time.

With Hawken, there's just so much more to it. All the mechs are different and have different playstyles. Some are better at certain things than others. Then there is how you outfit your mech. Items and internals have their own timers similar to UT's shields and ammo. Your weapons are more restricted so you have to position yourself appropriately for what you have equipped. You need to understand counter stratgies for mechs you are facing and try to put yourself in situations that make your weapons and build more effective than theirs. You need to keep a close eye on armor, fuel, your radar, and heat guages at all times. You need to understand dodge timing, use of cover, etc. I could go on, but you get the idea. Hawken is becomming a more complex and nuanced game than UT. As for its viability as a competitive game, I'm confident it will evolve into one with future balance patches and adjustments.

And to those with the attidude, "oh, its over... competitive play is dead." or, "oh, this game is for casuals that like CoD...."... I don't even know what to say. Go play in a noobie server and see how easy it is to obliterate. Then try taking on Immortal009 in 1v1 and you'll see how competitive this game can get.

[Omega22]

No New Items _

No New Loadouts _

No new Weapons _

What sets the mechs apart is player skill and low ping

They should make customizing more unique that reflelts the players hard work put into building the mech up from scatch , Service awards, long play hours, should grant unique items to upgrade prameters of the Mech.

I want a Big Daddy Mech ...lol

How about to change the onboard AI to a better one that can give valuable information on mech and enemy mech...

Mech should be able to carry more internals....

Guns should be able to level up as well ... not to level 3... Level 10

[AsianJoyKiller]

Gunmoku, on August 28 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

I can kind of see how CoD is not a good competitive shooter, what with terrible balance problems, but Halo_  Even though Halo 4 or Reach doesn't feel as tightly tuned as say Halo CE or Halo 3 did, they're still holding official competitions for Halo 4 definitely (Microsoft themselves are right now doing the Global Championship eliminations right now).  But I suppose it comes down to taste, but I think Halo 4 still is a very viable competitive shooter.

Hawken, if they play their cards right, will be just as viable in the competition circuit should organizations like ESL or MLG decide to adopt them into their game rotations.  E-sports really needs better variety these days, as watching DOTA 2, League of Legends, and Starcraft all the damn time is getting a bit stale.  I'd love to see a large-scale Hawken tourney once the "1.0" update hits.

There still may be tournaments going, but as I said before, they're regarded as jokes. Heck, the players from the MLG combine event have complained about it being a waste of time. People involved with their evens often complain about how unprofessional MLG was in comparison to other organizations they've worked with.

As far as HWK playing their cards right, they've laid off both Hugs and Jody. The two people who were supposed to be in charge of fostering Hawken's competitive scene. And they haven't been replaced.
There goes the eSports connections and experience.
When a company lays off the people in charge of the competitive experience because they're viewed as "unnecessary", it speaks volumes about how serious they are about developing a competitive game.

[GodsHolyMember]

Kurush, on August 26 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

Shows and explains pretty much everything new.

Ok, I pored through the video as the guy hastily swiped over the internals and read many of their descriptions.

Passive Internals

• Air Compressor = Dodge left/right in midair
  
• Air 180 = About-face in midair
  
• Deflectors = take x% less damage while boosting/dodging
  
• Repair Kit = 40% more HP replenished from health orbs
  
• Evasive Device = x% faster walk/boost/dodge speed after health is<50%, 1.5*x% when health is<25%
  
• Kinda Evasive Device = n% faster movement speed after taking damage
  
• Item Generator = item-cooldown 10% faster
  
• Detonation Device = FOR ALL THAT IS SACRED...DID THIS REALLY NEED TO BE ADDED_! deal 130 damage to every enemy within 17 meters of your demise...this is going to be on every newb's ride for sure.
  
• Fuel Converter = 2% of damage converted into fuel
  
• Replenisher = A.K.A. the Alpha-strike refill device...all cooldowns reduced by 6seconds for every kill

Deployable Items

• Lvl 1-3 Turrets = Better rank equals more armor/damage/range
  
• Lvl 1-3 HE/Detonators = More damage based on rank
  
• Radar/Jammer 1-3 = Better range, faster refill
  
• Barrier 1-3 = More health, bigger size
  
• Hologram 1-3 = Each rank allows more holograms to be deployed simultaneously (I can see a bunch of SS creating a hall-of-mirrors to really confuse things and spam this)

Oh god!  Seriously, they added a self-destruct...REALLY_  Oh, and armor replenishes 25hp/sec when not in combat for 10 seconds_  The best thing of all, you can place BOTH on your mech at the same time!  Some people were worried Hawken was becoming TF2...NO...It's becomming CoD!

I've got a bad feeling about this.

Edited by GodsHolyMember, August 28 2013 - 02:52 PM.

[Gunmoku]

AsianJoyKiller, on August 28 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

As far as HWK playing their cards right, they've laid off both Hugs and Jody. The two people who were supposed to be in charge of fostering Hawken's competitive scene. And they haven't been replaced.
There goes the eSports connections and experience.
When a company lays off the people in charge of the competitive experience because they're viewed as "unnecessary", it speaks volumes about how serious they are about developing a competitive game.

That's true that both Hugs and Jody were let go because they were being viewed as wasted space (when they clearly were not), but I think the majority of the problem possibly boiled down to perhaps Adhesive wanted to take 2 steps back and concentrate on getting the base game down first, THEN bringing in the E-sports people to assist with fine-tuning and getting competition set up.  I know some games like Firefall or Blacklight Retribution have more community-driven PvP tournaments (Go4Firefall and the Blacklight Community League) and have set up nicely-organized ladders and rule sets for their games.  Heck, even as a response to further demands for competition in Blacklight, Zombie Studios gave the people custom server rentals and the ability to set mutators and rules as they see fit.

If Adhesive would take a note from Zombie's playbook, they would easily learn from that experience and know that some people in this community have a good passion for a fair and fun competitive scene.

GodsHolyMember, on August 28 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

• Detonation Device = FOR ALL THAT IS SACRED...DID THIS REALLY NEED TO BE ADDED_! deal 130 damage to every enemy within 17 meters of your demise...this is going to be on every newb's ride for sure.

Oh god!  Seriously, they added a self-destruct...REALLY_  Oh, and armor replenishes 25hp/sec when not in combat for 10 seconds_  The best thing of all, you can place BOTH on your mech at the same time!  Some people were worried Hawken was becoming TF2...NO...It's becomming CoD!

I've got a bad feeling about this.

MechWarrior had a detonation mechanic as well and if some players did it smartly, they'd charge in heavily damaged and let the reactor explosion take care of the wounded opponent.  This is obviously no different, but I think it's mostly a case of "Looks terrible on paper, does better in practice" because we're seeing numbers and not the mechanic in motion.

As for the regeneration internal_  I don't think it's a huge problem, it just increases TTK a little bit should someone decide to take cover.  Of course the major problem is on a competitive level, you either need to require it for everyone or ban this item entirely because of the way it works.  But I could be wrong and it's just something that looks scary on paper, because numbers, and in practice it's actually a marginal difference in combat.

And stop comparing this to COD.  Every time someone mentions COD in a discussion about this game, Hughes eats a puppy.  Think of the freakin' puppies!

Edited by Gunmoku, August 28 2013 - 02:59 PM.

[Sylhiri]

Gunmoku, on August 28 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

Every time someone mentions COD in a discussion about this game, Hughes eats a puppy.

Knew it :0

[GodsHolyMember]

Gunmoku, on August 28 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

GodsHolyMember, on August 28 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

• Detonation Device = FOR ALL THAT IS SACRED...DID THIS REALLY NEED TO BE ADDED_! deal 130 damage to every enemy within 17 meters of your demise...this is going to be on every newb's ride for sure.

Oh god!  Seriously, they added a self-destruct...REALLY_  Oh, and armor replenishes 25hp/sec when not in combat for 10 seconds_  The best thing of all, you can place BOTH on your mech at the same time!  Some people were worried Hawken was becoming TF2...NO...It's becomming CoD!

I've got a bad feeling about this.

MechWarrior had a detonation mechanic as well and if some players did it smartly, they'd charge in heavily damaged and let the reactor explosion take care of the wounded opponent.  This is obviously no different, but I think it's mostly a case of "Looks terrible on paper, does better in practice" because we're seeing numbers and not the mechanic in motion.

As for the regeneration internal_  I don't think it's a huge problem, it just increases TTK a little bit should someone decide to take cover.  Of course the major problem is on a competitive level, you either need to require it for everyone or ban this item entirely because of the way it works.  But I could be wrong and it's just something that looks scary on paper, because numbers, and in practice it's actually a marginal difference in combat.

And stop comparing this to COD.  Every time someone mentions COD in a discussion about this game, Hughes eats a puppy.  Think of the freakin' puppies!

What about the repair-kit and the replenisher_  40% more health from repair orbs and the ability to refill your Alpha-strike 6-seconds sooner after every successive kill, 3 seconds for each assist_  It's basically a way for someone to easily killstreak their way through the game and of course the advanced repair kit will mean that a player can camp on a repair orb and get 40% more health out of it, it'll be equivalent to turning each repair orb into a mini-technician...particularly for turret-modes that heal over time.

The deflectors also look newbish too.  take less damage while boosting/dodging.  So basically, A-Classes will now have a higher TTK just because they're dodging all the time anyway

...anyway, I'm going to try not to be too judgmental until I sit down to play the new patch...but I've got a very bad feeling about the direction that this is going.

Edited by GodsHolyMember, August 28 2013 - 03:10 PM.

[AsoC]

Detonation Device + Detonators + Raider.. mhh.. I see my special purpose suicide mech dream, blasting into enemy mobs hiding behind the AA, finally coming real..

[Duralumi]

Ya know, I think the auto-heal internal has the potential to be okay IF it doesn't work while you're boosting and also doesn't stack with your manual heal.

ChemicalX, on August 28 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

Which is why im confused that some posts say this patch will make it less competitive!_

Pubs will be less competitive because this patch introduces more vertical progression. Even though people are matched with those closest to their own in pilot rank, you'll eventually end up using a Level 2 mech against a full game of Level 25's.

Scrims/Privates will stay the same as ever.

Edited by Duralumi, August 28 2013 - 03:28 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Gunmoku, on August 28 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

That's true that both Hugs and Jody were let go because they were being viewed as wasted space (when they clearly were not), but I think the majority of the problem possibly boiled down to perhaps Adhesive wanted to take 2 steps back and concentrate on getting the base game down first, THEN bringing in the E-sports people to assist with fine-tuning and getting competition set up.  I know some games like Firefall or Blacklight Retribution have more community-driven PvP tournaments (Go4Firefall and the Blacklight Community League) and have set up nicely-organized ladders and rule sets for their games.  Heck, even as a response to further demands for competition in Blacklight, Zombie Studios gave the people custom server rentals and the ability to set mutators and rules as they see fit.

I have absolutely no problem with the idea of working on the base game, but they're also dumbing it down too.
Hawken is already a fairly low-skill game once you get used to the movement and heat systems.

And it's obvious they're dumbing it down. Just look at the new internals. passive out of combat healing, suicide perks, internals that make running away easier, and if you pay close attention to the video, you can even see that they slowed movement down again.

Quote

If Adhesive would take a note from Zombie's playbook, they would easily learn from that experience and know that some people in this community have a good passion for a fair and fun competitive scene.

I've been telling Adhesive for months now that they need only to look at what Red5 has done, because they keep following Red5s path of mistakes almost exactly.

They appear to be reluctant to take a note from anyones book, even if they could avoid problems. I've seen some of the devs go so far as to refute objective truths just because it didn't mesh with what they had chosen to do with Hawken.