583 replies to this topic

[GodsHolyMember]

AsianJoyKiller, on August 28 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Gunmoku, on August 28 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

That's true that both Hugs and Jody were let go because they were being viewed as wasted space (when they clearly were not), but I think the majority of the problem possibly boiled down to perhaps Adhesive wanted to take 2 steps back and concentrate on getting the base game down first, THEN bringing in the E-sports people to assist with fine-tuning and getting competition set up.  I know some games like Firefall or Blacklight Retribution have more community-driven PvP tournaments (Go4Firefall and the Blacklight Community League) and have set up nicely-organized ladders and rule sets for their games.  Heck, even as a response to further demands for competition in Blacklight, Zombie Studios gave the people custom server rentals and the ability to set mutators and rules as they see fit.

I have absolutely no problem with the idea of working on the base game, but they're also dumbing it down too.
Hawken is already a fairly low-skill game once you get used to the movement and heat systems.

And it's obvious they're dumbing it down. Just look at the new internals. passive out of combat healing, suicide perks, internals that make running away easier, and if you pay close attention to the video, you can even see that they slowed movement down again.

Quote

If Adhesive would take a note from Zombie's playbook, they would easily learn from that experience and know that some people in this community have a good passion for a fair and fun competitive scene.

I've been telling Adhesive for months now that they need only to look at what Red5 has done, because they keep following Red5s path of mistakes almost exactly.

They appear to be reluctant to take a note from anyones book, even if they could avoid problems. I've seen some of the devs go so far as to refute objective truths just because it didn't mesh with what they had chosen to do with Hawken.

I'm really not hopeful for what's to come in this next patch...sigh...

...but this is HWK's artwork, if they want to ruin it, that's their prerogative, no matter how disappointing and avoidable it might be.  Perhaps in another few years, you and I will be discussing another game on another forum somewhere and use Hawken as an example of what not to do and the disappointment of being so close to making something truly phenominal, only to discard challenge and depth for cheap thrills to casual players that come and go like locusts over a bumper-crop.

[ChemicalX]

AsianJoyKiller, on August 28 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

ChemicalX, on August 28 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

All im trying to say is it sounds as if you guys are saying its not going to be competitive because its simple.....which in my opinion is wrong.

Except it's not being made any more simple than it was before.
If anything, it's been made more complex.

AsianJoyKiller, on August 28 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

And it's obvious they're dumbing it down. Just look at the new internals. passive out of combat healing, suicide perks, internals that make running away easier, and if you pay close attention to the video, you can even see that they slowed movement down again.

What_ First you said it was more complex.....then you said there dumbing it down.

Edited by ChemicalX, August 28 2013 - 03:49 PM.

[Architect]

I rarely post on here, but I keep up with as much info as possible. However, up on following this thread one thing that blows my mind is negative perception that CoD gets from people on here as if it is such a horrible game.

That game started of small and grew into a giant that everyone started to hate for reasons they love it when they first got introduced to it. Everyone expects some sort of revolution each time a new CoD is released and when they do add things to the game or switch stuff around quarter of the community goes ape sh*t, but that is the beauty of CoD as it has a place for everyone in the game; it might not be perfect for everyone or everyone's particular play style, but they are satisfied with it since they keep playing the game and that should be HAWKEN's first and foremost priority.

Once the game has a solid player base that varies in different play styles and experiences only then can the game start to grow. The input from the ALPHA and BETA is miniscule compared to the people, which will play once the game is out of open BETA and a lot of those players who have been testing the game are trying to push their own ideas of what this game should be like, when in fact the game needs to grow first and then let the people decided what they want the game to grow into, be it a more competitive edge to the game or a more casual approach. Right now the game might be heading in a causal approach as it needs to attract players first.

Another thing I don't understand is the cry for a competitive approach to this game. The game isn't even out of BETA yet people want to build it in some sort of eSport giant, which is competently unrealistic as it has never been done before.

All the best competitive games that we know in the eSport scene, which include games such as CS, Halo, Quake, CoD, SC, LoL, and DOTA weren't build for eSports it was a afterthought once people asked for it and they slowly grew into eSports, but their main objective always stayed the same, which was to get as many people as they can to play their awesome game. What illogical studio would intentionally build a game that centers around some 200+ people that want to play competitively and leave out thousands up on thousands of potential players, because they want to compete in each freaking game.

[DarkSpock]

You get to tell the devs what to do and what not to do now_ Well unless you have invested $10 million in them, you have little to say to affect the dev's decision and direction, no matter how professional you sound in this gaming business.

[ThirdEyE]

ChemicalX, on August 28 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on August 28 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

ChemicalX, on August 28 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

All im trying to say is it sounds as if you guys are saying its not going to be competitive because its simple.....which in my opinion is wrong.

Except it's not being made any more simple than it was before.
If anything, it's been made more complex.

AsianJoyKiller, on August 28 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

And it's obvious they're dumbing it down. Just look at the new internals. passive out of combat healing, suicide perks, internals that make running away easier, and if you pay close attention to the video, you can even see that they slowed movement down again.

What_ First you said it was more complex.....then you said there dumbing it down.

You forgot the initial "dumbing down" quote.  Flip flop flip_

AsianJoyKiller, on August 28 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

Because the game is being dumbed down to appeal to a more casual, mainstream audience so drastically.

[Duralumi]

Architect, on August 28 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

The game isn't even out of BETA yet people want to build it in some sort of eSport giant, which is competently unrealistic as it has never been done before.

I notice this has been an increasing trend lately ever since MOBAs gained popularity. Many people seem to keep trying to make something the "next big eSport" the moment it becomes accessible to the public. Rather than letting it develop natrually.
Firefall is an example of this. They just kept screaming ESPORTS ESPORTS ESPORTS while making a hybrid PvE/PvP game and now it's just an undesirable mess.

The only game I think that has successfully done this is DOTA 2. Which had a bunch of huge tournaments while it was still in "closed beta" (and I use that term lightly). But there were a number of factors outside of the quality/balance of the game which made it possible, and what is probably the biggest one is that it was made by Valve, an already established and popular company. Meteor Entertainment is only a fraction the size of Valve, so it needs other means to gain popularity (one of which would be a steam release with the upcoming patch, but whatever)
If we really want the game to develop competitively, we first have to obtain a playerbase.

Edited by Duralumi, August 28 2013 - 04:05 PM.

[Goyo]

Yeah, a game has to be built from the ground up to be fair and competitive.  Hawken is built to kill stuff with big Fkn mechs.  It will never be a good esport alternative.  just enjoy it for what it is.

[ShadowWarg]

ChemicalX, on August 28 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on August 28 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

ChemicalX, on August 28 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

All im trying to say is it sounds as if you guys are saying its not going to be competitive because its simple.....which in my opinion is wrong.

Except it's not being made any more simple than it was before.
If anything, it's been made more complex.

Which is why im confused that some posts say this patch will make it less competitive!_

AJK is right (I cant believe I just said that ) Hawken is being made more complex than it was before.

Complex /= Competitive. Hawken was simple starting out but more competitive than it is now. AJK isn't saying that dumbing the game is making the systems less complex, he means dumbing down by adding things and other variables that makes the game easier than it needs to be. A few examples of this are a number of the new internals that GHM listed, and earlier examples are some of the functions on the Tech. They are simple addition with the purpose of making the game "easier" for lower level players without considering how they may effect the higher level gameplay, or how higher level players will take advantage (not in a good way) of these training wheal mechanic.

Edited by ShadowWarg, August 28 2013 - 04:07 PM.

[Sylhiri]

Goyo, on August 28 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

just enjoy it for what it is.

And what is it_

[Goyo]

Sylhiri, on August 28 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

Goyo, on August 28 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

just enjoy it for what it is.

And what is it_

66666

Goyo, on August 28 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

... Hawken is built to kill stuff with big Fkn mechs. ...  just enjoy it for what it is.

[AsianJoyKiller]

ChemicalX, on August 28 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

What_ First you said it was more complex.....then you said there dumbing it down.

They are not mutually exclusive concepts.

You can make something easier ("dumbing it down") in using more complex mechanics. Remember "easy" != "simple".
For the record, in this case "simple" is meant in the context of purity, rather than "requiring less skill".

Architect, on August 28 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

I rarely post on here, but I keep up with as much info as possible. However, up on following this thread one thing that blows my mind is negative perception that CoD gets from people on here as if it is such a horrible game.

I should be clear about my criticisms of CoD.
CoD is a great game... for a certain audience based on certain mechanics.

My problem with Hawken trying to do that same sort of thing_
Because it betrays what they've said they wanted from Hawken in the past, and what many of the older players were looking to get out of Hawken.

Quote

Another thing I don't understand is the cry for a competitive approach to this game. The game isn't even out of BETA yet people want to build it in some sort of eSport giant, which is competently unrealistic as it has never been done before.

All the best competitive games that we know in the eSport scene, which include games such as CS, Halo, Quake, CoD, SC, LoL, and DOTA weren't build for eSports it was a afterthought once people asked for it and they slowly grew into eSports, but their main objective always stayed the same, which was to get as many people as they can to play their awesome game. What illogical studio would intentionally build a game that centers around some 200+ people that want to play competitively and leave out thousands up on thousands of potential players, because they want to compete in each freaking game.

It's not about building an eSports game.
It's about building a game that has the potential to become a great eSport. That means promoting mechanics that aren't incredibly dumbed to be casual friendly and allow for lots of personal growth.

The major problem I have with dumbing down the game is this:
It's not necessary.
You can have a game be accessible to casual players without dumbing everything down.
And although it's less attractive from a business point of view, it's not necessary to try and make a game that pleases everyone. Niche games have their place, and can be relatively successful, without making huge sacrifices by trying to be a game that pleases everyone (which is an impossible task anyway).

Duralumi, on August 28 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

I notice this has been an increasing trend lately ever since MOBAs gained popularity. Many people seem to keep trying to make something the "next big eSport" the moment it becomes accessible to the public. Rather than letting it develop natrually.
Firefall is an example of this. They just kept screaming ESPORTS ESPORTS ESPORTS while making a hybrid PvE/PvP game and now it's just an undesirable mess.

I'd actually argue that Firefall is in the best place it has ever been.

The PvE is fairly fun and varied (though lacking in content), and the PvP (especially Jetball) is in a fairly good place too, now that all traces of vertical progression don't affect it.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, August 28 2013 - 04:16 PM.

[GodsHolyMember]

DarkSpock, on August 28 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

You get to tell the devs what to do and what not to do now_ Well unless you have invested $10 million in them, you have little to say to affect the dev's decision and direction, no matter how professional you sound in this gaming business.

They're trying to make a game that is going to make them money.  They are now taking the approach of trying to appeal to casual players...these two things are not necessarily the same.

Casual gamers come and go...this game is F2P...I don't see too many casual gamers willing to pour money into F2P games...they have nothing invested to begin with.  Micro-transactions are more successful on games that are not F2P than the other way around and casual gamers are more lucrative to companies that convince them to purchase a copy of the title.

Hawken's reliance on micro-transactions are better suited for serious players.  But if the game is going to be oriented towards casual gamers to the detriment of serious gamers, then they are alienating their revenue-driver in favor of a cost-driver (gamers that don't pay anything to play, but create a demand for more servers).

Hawken is aiming to become another successful game on the Google Play store...very popular, 5-star rated, company is gone in 2 years after the costs continue to climb against non-existent revenues.

To the HWK-team
If Hawken falls apart at the seams, please release the source code and an SDK so that the modding community can pick up the pieces

[aToastfan]

One thing I've noticed about this patch, adding lots of game changing internals like mentioned also requires lots of balancing. (Apologies if this has already been discussed.)

How balanced is all this stuff they're adding going to be_ Could we see a case of "only use this stuff because it's the best_" Or will it be a matter of every choice changing playstyle but not necessarily overall power.  

Either way, I'm just some casual player who cares more about fun than competing. I'm sure a competitive scene will develop regardless of how good the game design is for it.

As an example, Guild Wars 2 wanted to try and get their PvP as an eSport, but after release they were soo busy focusing on PvE content the PvP development fell by the wayside until about a year later. Most of the people who wanted to play the game purely to compete had left by this point, off to find something else to prove their electronic prowess in. If there's a community there'll be competition, it really doesn't matter how many hardcore players there are who want to be involved.

In HAWKEN this parallel probably won't hold as far (a whole year), because HAWKEN is based around PvP, but I can still understand them wanting to make their game accessible to a broader range of players beyond the guys who want to be hardcore competitive.

One thing that worried me from that video, when he's talking about the internals, he mentions adding more internals as the game goes on. This seems like bad idea if they do want to have a balanced playing field for competitive gamers, between adding more mechs and adding more of these new internals/items they're going to have a headache of a time balancing. Competitive play really needs a set number of tools and enhancements (mechs and their modifications) that doesn't keep growing. While it's in beta sure, but with a full release they'll want a set number of modifications that themselves are subject to ongoing balancing, any additions to that will throw off the whole lot. New mechs are a bit easier to balance because they effect fewer mechanics, although now that each mech has 4 unique turning branches, that too will make balancing harder.

It's like we've seen with each new mech they've added. Often upon release they've been significantly stronger because of the new niche they fill, to be quickly rebalanced based on their relative performance. With the new internals and items, the potentials for this kind of happening has been multiplied. Any additions will probably follow a similar pattern.

[Sylhiri]

Goyo, on August 28 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

66666

Goyo, on August 28 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

... Hawken is built to kill stuff with big Fkn mechs. ...  just enjoy it for what it is.

So...casual FPS_

[AsianJoyKiller]

aToastfan, on August 28 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

How balanced is all this stuff they're adding going to be_ Could we see a case of "only use this stuff because it's the best_" Or will it be a matter of every choice changing playstyle but not necessarily overall power.  

As far as internals and items go, it's going to be very similar to how it is now. There's a few good ones that you'll need to use if you want to be your most effective. I'm still not sure if Tuning will fall prey to that too, but Tuning already pushes you towards fulfilling a certain role anyways, so technically not really a problem there.

However, casual players, people who just want to have fun, have plenty of options. Like as has been discussed elsewhere, the air dodging is likely to be less useful than the passive heal or the heal-on-kill internals, but it should be a blast to use. If you're not worried about playing optimally, I don't see 1.0 being restrictive.

[aToastfan]

Some of the item effects they're adding are reminiscent of MOBA items/effects; life-steal and passive regeneration.

Regardless I'm happy to wait and see how it pans out. If it's fun I don't mind, but I'm still interested in and would like to see a strong competitive scene develop. I enjoy being competitive, even if I don't always compete.

Edited by aToastfan, August 28 2013 - 04:33 PM.

[Architect]

AsianJoyKiller, on August 28 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

Architect, on August 28 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

I rarely post on here, but I keep up with as much info as possible. However, up on following this thread one thing that blows my mind is negative perception that CoD gets from people on here as if it is such a horrible game.

I should be clear about my criticisms of CoD.
CoD is a great game... for a certain audience based on certain mechanics.

My problem with Hawken trying to do that same sort of thing_
Because it betrays what they've said they wanted from Hawken in the past, and what many of the older players were looking to get out of Hawken.

Quote

Another thing I don't understand is the cry for a competitive approach to this game. The game isn't even out of BETA yet people want to build it in some sort of eSport giant, which is competently unrealistic as it has never been done before.

All the best competitive games that we know in the eSport scene, which include games such as CS, Halo, Quake, CoD, SC, LoL, and DOTA weren't build for eSports it was a afterthought once people asked for it and they slowly grew into eSports, but their main objective always stayed the same, which was to get as many people as they can to play their awesome game. What illogical studio would intentionally build a game that centers around some 200+ people that want to play competitively and leave out thousands up on thousands of potential players, because they want to compete in each freaking game.

It's not about building an eSports game.
It's about building a game that has the potential to become a great eSport. That means promoting mechanics that aren't incredibly dumbed to be casual friendly and allow for lots of personal growth.

The major problem I have with dumbing down the game is this:
It's not necessary.
You can have a game be accessible to casual players without dumbing everything down.
And although it's less attractive from a business point of view, it's not necessary to try and make a game that pleases everyone. Niche games have their place, and can be relatively successful, without making huge sacrifices by trying to be a game that pleases everyone (which is an impossible task anyway).

I don't think people can really question CoD and its mechanics when it is the worlds most popular game. The people that don't like CoD find themselves in a very small minority actually and not the other way around when looking at FPS gamers in general.

Betraying a vision that was flawed to begin with to please a minority is the mistake they shouldn't have committed in the first place. There isn't a studio in the world that hasn't made mistakes and tried to correct them. Only in today's age with games being developed with its fans involved in ALPHA and BETA tests are these visions being fixed/changed/ and or tweaked while the game is still in development and for everyone to see and criticize.

The game potentially becoming an eSport is exactly only a potential route, so I don't see why it should be pushed any more or less onto the game and things being kept out, because it somehow takes away from the eSport appeal. The game is already a FPS a unique FPS that has the pace and excitement that is required for a competitive eSport game. Excluding certain parts of a game to maintain that eSport feel is just plainly wrong as it become more a selfish view of the game. It is much easier to take away parts from a casual game for competitiveness then adding additional casual parts to a competitive game.

In regards to having niche games that do well for themselves is completely fine, but when you have a formula to potentially, become the next big thing on PC you have to take that chance and aim for as high as you can as I said it always much easier to scale down then grow.

Edited by Architect, August 28 2013 - 04:54 PM.

[GodsHolyMember]

I enjoy both casual games and games with lots of depth and nuance, particularly competitive multiplayer games, provided that they are balanced and well thought out.

However, I don't plan to invest a whole lot of time or money into casual games because I put them down for good in a lot shorter of a time than deeper games.

I enjoyed BLOPS and MW3.  There are lots of fun aspects to that game-formula, it's very forgiving in a number of ways, but still requires some degree of talent with regards to raw reflexes.  I played probably about 50hrs worth of multiplayer in each title, made it to prestige a few times and then put the game down for good and haven't bothered to play BLOPS2 or CoD:Ghosts...it's the same game as the priors...I'm done...probably for good.

I enjoy the Battlefield series.  I've put A LOT more hours into BF than I have CoD and I enjoy ArmA2 and will likely get ArmA3...those games have a lot more depth and a lot more reward for actually learning complex tactics, teamplay, and the combat formula is far more varied and nuanced.

Hawken has A LOT of potential, but I see the game going in a direction that I have little desire to venture down...Mecha-Tribes or perhaps an incarnation of the canned sequel to XBox's Mech Assault 2

...at least I didn't put any money into this yet...I think the HWK saved me a couple of bucks...I'd be ticked if I had already spent $50+ on my mechs only to find that the game that I originally enjoyed playing is slowly being altered into something I have little desire to play.

Edited by GodsHolyMember, August 28 2013 - 04:59 PM.

[Gunmoku]

AsianJoyKiller, on August 28 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

The major problem I have with dumbing down the game is this:
It's not necessary.
You can have a game be accessible to casual players without dumbing everything down.
And although it's less attractive from a business point of view, it's not necessary to try and make a game that pleases everyone. Niche games have their place, and can be relatively successful, without making huge sacrifices by trying to be a game that pleases everyone (which is an impossible task anyway).

Duralumi, on August 28 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

I notice this has been an increasing trend lately ever since MOBAs gained popularity. Many people seem to keep trying to make something the "next big eSport" the moment it becomes accessible to the public. Rather than letting it develop natrually.
Firefall is an example of this. They just kept screaming ESPORTS ESPORTS ESPORTS while making a hybrid PvE/PvP game and now it's just an undesirable mess.

I'd actually argue that Firefall is in the best place it has ever been.

The PvE is fairly fun and varied (though lacking in content), and the PvP (especially Jetball) is in a fairly good place too, now that all traces of vertical progression don't affect it.

But at the same time, when you develop a game with the potential to become an E-Sport, would simplicity be at the forefront of your overarching design choices rather than a super-deep customization system that's the equivalent of a Master's Thesis in combinations_  I'd think the better thing to do is streamline everything to a point where it's easy to adjust everything, but still leave enough meat on the bone for lots of theorycrafting to go on in a forum (i.e Right here).

That's really the biggest problem involving Hawken is that it's hard to find that perfect balance between complexity and simplicity without trimming too much fat and we get "Call of Doody Syndrome" where we end up too generic without having that "it factor" that makes the game something different.

That's why I like Firefall so much, they're striking this excellent balance between complexity with a simple approach while the PvP experience is rock-freaking solid.  It's just that I think that Red5 made a slight mistake by cracking the Beta this wide-open this quick without fully realizing their vision until recently (the Omnicon Patch is the closest to their original pitch of Firefall as of right now).  Hawken is much more hard to criticize on that front because it's much more PvP oriented while Firefall is more a "Jack of All Trades" in the MMO-game market.

[Beefsweat]

AsianJoyKiller, on August 28 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

phed, on August 28 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

i've never played cod multiplayer and have no idea why cod is brought up in nearly every discusion and debated endlessly.

i think cod is why the forum search can't do less than 4 characters.

You should get used to it.
When 1.0 goes live, it's a comparison that will only be made more and more.

it's not really an accurate or a good comparison, but if you say so ¯༼ຈل͜ຈ༽/¯