200 replies to this topic

[AsianJoyKiller]

Leonhardt, on August 22 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

That was my first thought too, but if you think about the fact that there are no refunds and the MC were already used on something other than cosmetics they are essentially giving them the same flexibility as if they were refunding the item they payed for. If something that was bought for MC that could only be purchased with MC was refunded with HP then it really would be an issue, but here its really not.

Well, first off, it's not a refund. You're not getting your money back. HWK still has your cash. It's not like you could take your MC and go see a movie or buy a hamburger. It's still only good for use in Hawken.

To me it seems strange to be compensated in a currency other than what you used to purchase the item. It doesn't mesh with the many other experiences I've had with games when they've removed or signifcantly changed items that were purchased with the games' cash equivalent currency.

And the new system has changed so significantly, not just with the removal of internals but with how HP is spent, that I can't honestly say I feel like being compensated in HP and what that can buy feels like it's equal to what MC offers.

[Leonhardt]

AsianJoyKiller, on August 22 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

Well, first off, it's not a refund. You're not getting your money back. HWK still has your cash. It's not like you could take your MC and go see a movie or buy a hamburger. It's still only good for use in Hawken.

To me it seems strange to be compensated in a currency other than what you used to purchase the item. It doesn't mesh with the many other experiences I've had with games when they've removed or signifcantly changed items that were purchased with the games' cash equivalent currency.

And the new system has changed so significantly, not just with the removal of internals but with how HP is spent, that I can't honestly say I feel like being compensated in HP and what that can buy feels like it's equal to what MC offers.

Valid points all things considered. My only thought is they would prefer to keep all transaction calculations in HP for some reason. I'm not certain why, but my best guess is it makes the transition easier on their end.

I haven't spent any MC on anything except cosmetics so I can't say I'm all that upset. That being said if I had payed for something in MC and the thing I purchased is being replaced I would expect that I would be compensated with the currency I originally used. That does however mean that they have to go through all transactions and separate MC and HP ones during the migration.

Edited by Leonhardt, August 22 2013 - 08:16 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Leonhardt, on August 22 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on August 22 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

Well, first off, it's not a refund. You're not getting your money back. HWK still has your cash. It's not like you could take your MC and go see a movie or buy a hamburger. It's still only good for use in Hawken.

To me it seems strange to be compensated in a currency other than what you used to purchase the item. It doesn't mesh with the many other experiences I've had with games when they've removed or signifcantly changed items that were purchased with the games' cash equivalent currency.

And the new system has changed so significantly, not just with the removal of internals but with how HP is spent, that I can't honestly say I feel like being compensated in HP and what that can buy feels like it's equal to what MC offers.

Valid points all things considered. My only thought is they would prefer to keep all transaction calculations in HP for some reason. I'm not certain why, but my best guess is it makes the transition easier on their end.

I haven't spent any MC on anything except cosmetics so I can't say I'm all that upset. That being said if I had payed for something in MC and the thing I purchased is being replaced I would expect that I would be compensated with the currency I originally used. That does however mean that they have to go through all transactions and separate MC and HP ones during the migration.

Yeah.
I'm pretty sure I didn't buy any internals with MC, so it's not like I'd be losing anything either.
But the principle of it bothers me.

That's a good point you bring up about ease of processing. Though it does make me wonder if they have an automated process set up, which would make it relatively easy to separate the MC and HP purchases, or if it's just some unlucky bastards who are going to have to go through databases and crunch numbers for thousands of players.
Then again, as I think about it, it'd be damn near impossible to do it manually, so they must have some sort of system set up.

[Sylhiri]

AsianJoyKiller, on August 22 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

Then again, as I think about it, it'd be damn near impossible to do it manually, so they must have some sort of system set up.

Remember Alpha and Beta camos_ XD

[newkah]

Is the MMR system going away with this upcoming patch_

[Chancellor]

newkah, on August 22 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

Is the MMR system going away with this upcoming patch_

Hellll nooooo.

[hawkenus]

Q: Will my earned MC, HC and exp points in HAB be also consolidated and added to my migrated account_

Q: If I buy mech in HAB that I didn't have in HKN, will it be also added to my migartion account_

[hendman]

AsianJoyKiller, on August 22 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

hendman, on August 22 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on August 22 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

hendman, on August 22 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

I don't really see the problem people are trying to create here. You had stuff prior to the migration, and afterwards you will have the same stuff or you will be compensated with HC so you can buy it again. You will lose nothing, and only stand to gain from the unlocks you possible earned with your xp. Really, no problem at all.

Except HP is not equivalent to MC because you can't buy cosmetics or boosters with HP. So if you spent MC on internals, you're being refunded with a less valuable currency.

So you do lose something.

You already spend your MC, just because you don't get to spend it again doesn't mean you lost something. It is a migration, not a roll back, and afterwards you have the same items or you have the means to acquire them.

Again, you're ignoring that MC and HP don't have equivalent value because MC can do things that HP can't. By compensated in HP instead of a MC refund means you are losing the flexibility to use those MC for cosmetics and boosters.

Also, they are completely removing the internals and replacing them, so that means you will not have the same items, nor will you be able to acquire them. Are you sure you complete understand what this migration and the patch entails_ Because you're showing a fundamental lack of knowledge of what's happening.

You lose the flexibility because you already spend the MC on something else then camo's or other items that can be bought with MC only. The fact you don't like the decision you made to purchase something with MC that can be acquired by HC as well, does not mean that you must be given the right to undo that decision.

The point about the fact that the whole system will change is moot, since that applies to everyone, not just people who spend MC. It is one of the joys of participating in an Open Beta.

[hendman]

hawkenus, on August 23 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

Q: Will my earned MC, HC and exp points in HAB be also consolidated and added to my migrated account_

Q: If I buy mech in HAB that I didn't have in HKN, will it be also added to my migartion account_

No on both questions. Your current HAB account is not related to your actual game account, apart from login credentials. Even after the migration everything you do in the HAB environment will not affect your actual game account, and vice versa.

[AsianJoyKiller]

hendman, on August 23 2013 - 02:12 AM, said:

You lose the flexibility because you already spend the MC on something else then camo's or other items that can be bought with MC only. The fact you don't like the decision you made to purchase something with MC that can be acquired by HC as well, does not mean that you must be given the right to undo that decision.

The point about the fact that the whole system will change is moot, since that applies to everyone, not just people who spend MC. It is one of the joys of participating in an Open Beta.

Imagine you go to the general store and purchase a specialized tool. At some point, there is a recall and you have to return that item. When you do the store gives you a refund in the form of store credit, because it was the only product of it's kind, and a replacement or exchange for an equivalent item can't be made. However, this store credit can only be used on other items in the tool section, not anything else the store carries.

And just because you assert that the system changing is a moot point does not make it so.

[h0B0]

hendman, on August 23 2013 - 02:12 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on August 22 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

hendman, on August 22 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on August 22 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

hendman, on August 22 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

I don't really see the problem people are trying to create here. You had stuff prior to the migration, and afterwards you will have the same stuff or you will be compensated with HC so you can buy it again. You will lose nothing, and only stand to gain from the unlocks you possible earned with your xp. Really, no problem at all.

Except HP is not equivalent to MC because you can't buy cosmetics or boosters with HP. So if you spent MC on internals, you're being refunded with a less valuable currency.

So you do lose something.

You already spend your MC, just because you don't get to spend it again doesn't mean you lost something. It is a migration, not a roll back, and afterwards you have the same items or you have the means to acquire them.

Again, you're ignoring that MC and HP don't have equivalent value because MC can do things that HP can't. By compensated in HP instead of a MC refund means you are losing the flexibility to use those MC for cosmetics and boosters.

Also, they are completely removing the internals and replacing them, so that means you will not have the same items, nor will you be able to acquire them. Are you sure you complete understand what this migration and the patch entails_ Because you're showing a fundamental lack of knowledge of what's happening.

You lose the flexibility because you already spend the MC on something else then camo's or other items that can be bought with MC only. Is forcing a loss of flexibility on my investment a good marketing device_ Does it incite the paying customer to spend more on the game when it could still change at any moment and they could once again lose flexibility and satisfaction in their investment_ The fact you don't like the decision you made to purchase something with MC that can be acquired by HC as well, does not mean that you must be given the right to undo that decision. We are not trying to undo choices we are unsatisfied with. We are forced to undo our investment and are compensated in a currency that does not match our initial investment.

The point about the fact that the whole system will change is moot, since that applies to everyone, not just people who spend MC. It is one of the joys of participating in an Open Beta. The patch changing the game is something that affects everyone. However customer satisfaction on a good they have invest money in obviously does not apply to every now does it_

Honestly, i wouldn't  be surprised if HWK doesn't have the resources to differentiate HC from MC investment. Look back at alpha and beta camos, I know a fewpeople who were given alpha camos and didn't even participate in it.

Does this make it "ok". Well its not like they are not giving us a credit.

Will it incite a customer to spend more on the game. I'd think twice about it. Wouldn't you_

Know what would be nice, if someone at HWK would be transparent about their thought process behind these "refunds". I personally have considerably more respect for someone who tells me upfront what his limitations are than someone who avoids telling me information on my investments.

[DaPheel]

Is there anything that can't be bought with H.C. in the new version_

I have not seen anything so far (I have not looked at holo taunts and other consumables though)

Also, on the subject of the nature of the refund:
- They may only have records of how much MC people have bought, not what they spent it on.

If that is the case and they refunded everybody their MC in full, what about people that had purchased MC and then used it on consumables, such as taunts_
They would be refunded for currency already spent. Therefore the only way to work it would be based on the items and mechs in your account.

At the moment it is just speculation though. It would be nice if they put a quick post giving us a simple explanation, such as:
"sorry peeps - we know what you bought, just not what you bought it with, so we're giving it all back in H.C."

[Dackstrus]

hendman, on August 23 2013 - 02:12 AM, said:

The point about the fact that the whole system will change is moot, since that applies to everyone, not just people who spend MC. It is one of the joys of participating in an Open Beta.

hendman, on August 23 2013 - 02:12 AM, said:

It is one of the joys of participating in an Open Beta.

Oh... Wow...

AJK and friends, I would like to submit this person to the "I should've known better" list.

Because it's totally the most fun thing in the game to be told my money purchases were wasted.


And even though i should know better then to bother trying to explain it to you... If this new system had been in place when i spent my MC, I wouldn't have. I would've bought other things instead.

Being as it's BETA, And we're helping them figure out how they should do things, You would think they would give you back your stuff if they decide to change an entire system in the game. Especially since this update seems like it's going to be a massive revamp, they should give people their stuff back.

Because if this is how they plan to move foreward, Theres never any point to putting MC in the game, you'll always just sit there and wonder if it's been wasted. I know i won't put more money in under those circumstances, And i'm sure many others feel the same.

But now i realize what kind of person i'm talking to... And that i should know better then argue against, it usually makes no difference, but hey, occasionally i try to restore a little faith in humanity...

[AsianJoyKiller]

DaPheel, on August 23 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Is there anything that can't be bought with H.C. in the new version_

I have not seen anything so far (I have not looked at holo taunts and other consumables though)

As always, cosmetics and boosters are a major source of income.
They're not just going to start making those things free (not to mention the concept of buying boosters with ingame currency is ridiculous).

[Baraqorn]

AsianJoyKiller, on August 23 2013 - 03:27 AM, said:

Imagine you go to the general store and purchase a specialized tool. At some point, there is a recall and you have to return that item. When you do the store gives you a refund in the form of store credit, because it was the only product of it's kind, and a replacement or exchange for an equivalent item can't be made. However, this store credit can only be used on other items in the tool section, not anything else the store carries.

And now imagine that there was a recall and you go back to the store and the manager tells you he doesn't have an exact match to the tool you bought, but you can use your credit to purchase any of the other comparable tools (perhaps even multiple different tools if there is enough credit). But no, you can't use your credit from returning the tool to instead purchase curtains or a fancy faucet because he won't get compensated from the manufacturer of the tools for that sale.

That's a better analogy of what's happening here.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Baraqorn, on August 23 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on August 23 2013 - 03:27 AM, said:

Imagine you go to the general store and purchase a specialized tool. At some point, there is a recall and you have to return that item. When you do the store gives you a refund in the form of store credit, because it was the only product of it's kind, and a replacement or exchange for an equivalent item can't be made. However, this store credit can only be used on other items in the tool section, not anything else the store carries.

And now imagine that there was a recall and you go back to the store and the manager tells you he doesn't have an exact match to the tool you bought, but you can use your credit to purchase any of the other comparable tools (perhaps even multiple different tools if there is enough credit). But no, you can't use your credit from returning the tool to instead purchase curtains or a fancy faucet because he won't get compensated from the manufacturer of the tools for that sale.

That's a better analogy of what's happening here.

Except that requires comparable tools to be available.
If you haven't played HAB it may be difficult to understand, but the new internals are very different. They aren't comparable.

Besides that, your comment about manufacturer compensation for the seller is entirely irrelevant.

[h0B0]

Baraqorn, on August 23 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

But no, you can't use your credit from returning the tool to instead purchase curtains or a fancy faucet because he won't get compensated from the manufacturer of the tools for that sale.

Except HWK won;t be losing any money. Oh yeah there will be a few customers that will purchase "curtains" and they will be please at the migration and these customers will tell their friends that the store offered them good service, and they will likely go back.

I'm honestly very tired of seeing businesses trying to maximize their profit at the expense of the cusomers. We could have many compatible parts, but in order to maxime profit, well change the size of the plug so you have to purchase our company. we'll build apliances that last only a few years so you have to purchase more apliances.

[Baraqorn]

h0B0, on August 23 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

Baraqorn, on August 23 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

But no, you can't use your credit from returning the tool to instead purchase curtains or a fancy faucet because he won't get compensated from the manufacturer of the tools for that sale.

Except HWK won;t be losing any money. Oh yeah there will be a few customers that will purchase "curtains" and they will be please at the migration and these customers will tell their friends that the store offered them good service, and they will likely go back.

I'm honestly very tired of seeing businesses trying to maximize their profit at the expense of the cusomers. We could have many compatible parts, but in order to maxime profit, well change the size of the plug so you have to purchase our company. we'll build apliances that last only a few years so you have to purchase more apliances.

And I'm tired of video game players complaining about every game company for <gasp> trying to make money from the game they've made.

Yes, some companies go too far. I don't see Meteor as one. They want people to purchase MC to buy cosmetics. Frankly, that is how they make money from the game. So giving people back MC that they had spent on Internals will mean some people will spend that MC on cosmetics instead of purchasing more MC to do that. They, then lose money. No player who spent MC on internals is losing ANYTHING except the ability to use the MC they once spent on functional equipment (and got the enjoyment of for however many months they had them) to turn around and use that MC on cosmetics. They can use the equivalent HC returned to them to purchase ANY other functional equipment they want - a one-for-one exchange - and get the enjoyment out of that equipment.

If you want cosmetics, purchase MC and help keep a company in business that has provided you hours of enjoyment (if not hundreds of hours).

This is not EA or Blizzard. This is a small, start-up studio publisher that has a product you all enjoy. Maybe it's time to stop bitching about all the free content they've provided and help them keep providing that content well into the future.

[Baraqorn]

AsianJoyKiller, on August 23 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

Baraqorn, on August 23 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on August 23 2013 - 03:27 AM, said:

Imagine you go to the general store and purchase a specialized tool. At some point, there is a recall and you have to return that item. When you do the store gives you a refund in the form of store credit, because it was the only product of it's kind, and a replacement or exchange for an equivalent item can't be made. However, this store credit can only be used on other items in the tool section, not anything else the store carries.

And now imagine that there was a recall and you go back to the store and the manager tells you he doesn't have an exact match to the tool you bought, but you can use your credit to purchase any of the other comparable tools (perhaps even multiple different tools if there is enough credit). But no, you can't use your credit from returning the tool to instead purchase curtains or a fancy faucet because he won't get compensated from the manufacturer of the tools for that sale.

That's a better analogy of what's happening here.

Except that requires comparable tools to be available.
If you haven't played HAB it may be difficult to understand, but the new internals are very different. They aren't comparable.

Besides that, your comment about manufacturer compensation for the seller is entirely irrelevant.

You spent that MC on functional equipment. You now want to spend it on cosmetics that you could not get without spending more cash to purchase more MC. Thus, Meteor is losing money from giving you something that is not equivalent to the item you purchased.

Look, relevance.

And I know the new Internals. Yes, they are not the same. Some are worse. Some are better. Most players bitched about the old Internals anyway because they didn't provide enough bang for the buck and the downsides were often worse than the upsides. I liked them. It was a fun metagame to find ways to ameliorate the drawbacks so you got only benefits. But I like the new system as well. There's some cool internals in there and a lot more choices.

[LONEDEADWOLF]

I dont want a credit on my CCok. I want back what i gave. If i gave you an apple dont give me an orange and say its the same. Clearly they are not. When you change the game you are the responsible party for the returns of the goods you took. As easy as they took my CC payments is how they should refund the MC i purchased used on the items no longer in the game. I dont want my money back on my CC but i do want the same freedom i had when i faithfully did my purchase. I spent good hard money in the game and i with others earned the right to get back said purchase.