228 replies to this topic

[HideyoshiYaoi]

They should just take away self repair for the tech. Problem solved.

[AsianJoyKiller]

HideyoshiYaoi, on August 27 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

They should just take away self repair for the tech. Problem solved.

Problem not solved, because it doesn't address the core issue of constant healing. It's merely a band-aid fix.

[HideyoshiYaoi]

AsianJoyKiller, on August 27 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

HideyoshiYaoi, on August 27 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

They should just take away self repair for the tech. Problem solved.

Problem not solved, because it doesn't address the core issue of constant healing. It's merely a band-aid fix.

Tech takes three hundred damage and stays there to keep healing is gonna die really fast, compared to now, when they just activate green beam and heal back up

[BucketOfSkin]

How about as the technician takes damage, its ability to heal effectively diminishes. It itself has a debuff optional weapon...

The Mech Mechanics video states the green beam is a panic button. Just make it a longer cool down so that the tech retreats more often.

[Sylhiri]

BucketOfSkin, on August 27 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

How about as the technician takes damage, its ability to heal effectively diminishes. It itself has a debuff optional weapon...

The Mech Mechanics video states the green beam is a panic button. Just make it a longer cool down so that the tech retreats more often.

It's still just as overly effective, just making it slightly harder doesn't do much in the long run.

Like doubling the CD on the detonator, it still does crazy alpha strike damage. It doesn't fix the damage, just makes it not happen as much.

Edited by Sylhiri, August 27 2013 - 10:30 AM.

[BucketOfSkin]

Sylhiri, on August 27 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

BucketOfSkin, on August 27 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

How about as the technician takes damage, its ability to heal effectively diminishes. It itself has a debuff optional weapon...

The Mech Mechanics video states the green beam is a panic button. Just make it a longer cool down so that the tech retreats more often.

It's still just as overly effective, just making it slightly harder doesn't do much in the long run.

Like doubling the CD on the detonator, it still does crazy alpha strike damage. It doesn't fix the damage, just makes it not happen as much.

It does a lot in the long run, think about it a bit more. If the Tech starts taking heavy damage and its ability to heal diminishes with that damage, the pilot has two choices: Pop the green beam to survive and top up who is in front of them or retreat to heal.

Now this leads to consequences both ways: Popping the green beam (while knowing it has the longer cool down, most likely one use per life cycle) means that you can't continue a rolling ball of death after a major battle. The mech in front of the tech may be topped up or at least partly alive but the tech will have reduced ability and low health allowing the other team to take on the duo and have a better chance at taking them both down. The choice if the Tech runs away to heal leaves the team without it's support, but the Tech refreshes its ability to heal properly at full health and saved the green beam for when fuzzy bunny goes down, its still removes the Tech from battle for a short while. This to me slows down the crazy frantic assists that a Tech can gather. Just need to break up the heal train.

[Sylhiri]

BucketOfSkin, on August 27 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

It does a lot in the long run, think about it a bit more. If the Tech starts taking heavy damage and its ability to heal diminishes with that damage, the pilot has two choices: Pop the green beam to survive and top up who is in front of them or retreat to heal.

That still doesn't solve the ability to heal around corners and in/out of shields, continuous healing and it definitely doesn't solve the tech meta problems and the impact it has on C-class options and certain weapons. The effectiveness is still there, you just made it's job slightly harder.

[DFTR]

Does Hawken need a healer/cleric role_  
What was the game like before the Tech in terms of kills/deaths_

I find some of the higher level intermediate games can become tedious with 14-10 scores because everyone is camped out and not straying from their techs and dropping shields.  I have more fun when there's atleast 30 kills in the game.  It's like football and baseball, offense sells (defense wins).  

I'm not saying that the Tech should be removed, but I think the Tech should be one of the harder classes to play and to play well.

[AsianJoyKiller]

DFTR, on August 27 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

Does Hawken need a healer/cleric role_

Not at all.

Quote

What was the game like before the Tech in terms of kills/deaths_

Nothing that seemed unusual. It worked out pretty much the way that any shooter would work.

Quote

I find some of the higher level intermediate games can become tedious with 14-10 scores because everyone is camped out and not straying from their techs and dropping shields.  I have more fun when there's atleast 30 kills in the game.  It's like football and baseball, offense sells (defense wins).

This was never a problem before.
Battles of attrition meant that deathballs eventually broke apart or team camping positions were broken much faster, and with much more frequency.

Quote

I'm not saying that the Tech should be removed, but I think the Tech should be one of the harder classes to play and to play well.

At the very least, it needs to be at least as hard as any other class.

[GodsHolyMember]

Possible ways to balance the Technician

• Projectile-based health orbs (think of it like a healing Redox).  Orbs must be lobbed, must make direct-contact to heal (or AoE-heal to a much lesser extent).  Like landing hits with the GL, this will require some decent skill, and more importantly, the shots can miss or even be intercepted by the enemy.  As a bonus to the Tech, the repair-mortar should operate like a reverse HEAT-cannon.  Charge the gun more to release a slower-flying, steeper arching massive repair blob, or tap it to launch a fast-flying, shallow arching mini-repair orb...the former would heal a large amount (but generate more heat) the latter would heal very little (but be easier to aim and multi-task due to shallower arc and higher velocity)
  
  
• Healing Beam causes damage-feedback and doesn't self-heal.  If a Technician is healing a tank while the tank is taking damage, the damage transfers into the Technician on a 1:1 basis.  Technicians can act as a damage-proxy, still allowing the medic-tank mechanic, but with a limited stamina, as a Tech will rapidly lose heath and be forced to retreat or shut-down intermittently to regain HP themsleves (medic-trains would have the damage transfer down to the last tech in the chain).  Additionally, healing beams can be stacked on a tank, but the damage-feedback should still be 1:1 with each Tech, meaning that even though the enemy is only inflicting X damage on the tank, the n number of Techs don't get to spread the feedback X/n, instead the damage will be outlayed equally among all the Techs.
  
  
• Technician loses auto-aim heal beyond a narrow reticule and has no auto-aim for vampire-beam.  Instead of a "green-beam" ability, the Technician is given the Blitz ability to allow it to boost and operate its weapons.

In general, the Technician is a low-skill/high-reward mech.  A dreadful combination to begin with, and unlike the blatantly ripped-off TF2 mechanic, there's no counter-balance of a Spy's backstab or a Sniper's headshot.

I disagree with weakening the Technician's ability to heal, that is the mech's core function for the team.  What needs to be done is to add extra challenge and nuances to the function so that it is neither as easy to use nor is it as flexible and near-equally effective in all scenarios.

Edited by GodsHolyMember, August 27 2013 - 07:06 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

GodsHolyMember, on August 27 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

I disagree with weakening the Technician's ability to heal, that is the mech's core function for the team.

This is an important point that I want to emphasize.

Just straight up nerfing the Tech's healing is problematic because it just makes it less effective at what it's supposed to do, which ruins its viability. In other words, it balances the Tech by making the Tech bad. This is, of course, undesirable because it becomes a useless mech. Useless mechs tend to be not fun to play.

This is why I push the idea of redesigning the Tech so hard. Because it's really the only way to eliminate the bull**** mechanics of the Tech and constant healing, without rendering it useless.

[onehourleft]

GodsHolyMember, on August 27 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

Possible ways to balance the Technician

• Projectile-based health orbs (think of it like a healing Redox).  Orbs must be lobbed, must make direct-contact to heal (or AoE-heal to a much lesser extent).  Like landing hits with the GL, this will require some decent skill, and more importantly, the shots can miss or even be intercepted by the enemy.  As a bonus to the Tech, the repair-mortar should operate like a reverse HEAT-cannon.  Charge the gun more to release a slower-flying, steeper arching massive repair blob, or tap it to launch a fast-flying, shallow arching mini-repair orb...the former would heal a large amount (but generate more heat) the latter would heal very little (but be easier to aim and multi-task due to shallower arc and higher velocity)
  
  
• Healing Beam causes damage-feedback and doesn't self-heal.  If a Technician is healing a tank while the tank is taking damage, the damage transfers into the Technician on a 1:1 basis.  Technicians can act as a damage-proxy, still allowing the medic-tank mechanic, but with a limited stamina, as a Tech will rapidly lose heath and be forced to retreat or shut-down intermittently to regain HP themsleves (medic-trains would have the damage transfer down to the last tech in the chain).  Additionally, healing beams can be stacked on a tank, but the damage-feedback should still be 1:1 with each Tech, meaning that even though the enemy is only inflicting X damage on the tank, the n number of Techs don't get to spread the feedback X/n, instead the damage will be outlayed equally among all the Techs.
  
  
• Technician loses auto-aim heal beyond a narrow reticule and has no auto-aim for vampire-beam.  Instead of a "green-beam" ability, the Technician is given the Blitz ability to allow it to boost and operate its weapons.

Edited by onehourleft, August 28 2013 - 08:04 AM.

[BucketOfSkin]

Sylhiri, on August 27 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

BucketOfSkin, on August 27 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

It does a lot in the long run, think about it a bit more. If the Tech starts taking heavy damage and its ability to heal diminishes with that damage, the pilot has two choices: Pop the green beam to survive and top up who is in front of them or retreat to heal.

That still doesn't solve the ability to heal around corners and in/out of shields, continuous healing and it definitely doesn't solve the tech meta problems and the impact it has on C-class options and certain weapons. The effectiveness is still there, you just made it's job slightly harder.

Ok the heal around corners is a good point but the continuous healing on a c class is the meta. The effectiveness is there but for a limited time which changes it. Slightly harder_ How often do you run a Tech!_! This would cause you to rethink the 'heal train'. If continuous heals are the problem just up heat generation. That would also severely limit assists on the Tech too and reduce crying that a tin can took MVP.

AsianJoyKiller, on August 27 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

GodsHolyMember, on August 27 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

I disagree with weakening the Technician's ability to heal, that is the mech's core function for the team.

This is an important point that I want to emphasize.

Just straight up nerfing the Tech's healing is problematic because it just makes it less effective at what it's supposed to do, which ruins its viability. In other words, it balances the Tech by making the Tech bad. This is, of course, undesirable because it becomes a useless mech. Useless mechs tend to be not fun to play.

This is why I push the idea of redesigning the Tech so hard. Because it's really the only way to eliminate the bull**** mechanics of the Tech and constant healing, without rendering it useless.

But you just said above that Hawken does not need a healer. Even if the tech gets a complete redesign it can never take away that this mechs presence allows a teammate greater advantage over another mech. Most of these complaints come from team play and not high tier at that. I suggest to any pilots that don't want to see Techs just to play Deathmatch, not many hang out in there because the mech BLOWS unless its constantly healing something.

[Xer06siX]

AsianJoyKiller, on August 26 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Huanglong, on August 26 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

Quote

Your aiming requirements are much more lax

Like the Bruiser and Rocketeer and mechs with burst weapons

I've always complained about Hellfires and their locking mechanics, I won't deny that point.
But the heal beam is also orders of magnitude more reliable and consistent than Hellfires are, plus it's range of stickyness is much greater and lenient than Hellfires.

And halt.......Untrue about the range of the "stickyness". It has a significantly shorter range then HF, as far as its application is concerned. Cover can be used to defend against HF and Beam locks, so its really pointless to argue about it...you may as well examine your own skill as a Mech pilot and correct your shortcomings.

HF = Long range suppression. Helix = close range support. You have to get in close to actually use the torch for dmg, and by that time you have probably taken several hi dmg HF (instant dmg, not DoT lock like the torch) shots to the face and are less than half health.

Your comparing apples and oranges and hoping one of you will win the argument...If were gonna talk about nerfing something, maybe we should talk about increasing missile spread on the Hellfires.

[Bowthis]

Hello to all,

it is quite a situation for the most players to get rid of the tech – mech ...
but most likely, as they found it g to bring him back,
it would be nice to fair those games when a technician
is having more live so it is a enemy to play with.

There are other mech's that would be ready for a fair change,
but then again, lucky player, we all different and one knows better then others how to use
a mech the best, except those who have somehow curious advantage, you all know what and who we talking about.

[Un3thical]

Sixxness, on August 26 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

I would expect the majority of you guys moaning about the Tech, have never attempted using it.

For starters:

1. Its the weakest Mech in game. and some of you are wanting to make it weaker! (probably 400 health or less) would be fine_
2. It can't run to save its own life, nevermind others! This should actually be increased.
3. The health beams are usually to short and don't reach or keep up with teammates that run away too fast. the red beam does little damage; overheating far to quickly while using the guns at the same time.

It has the lowest dps in the game, doesnt mean its the weakest, and it has the same hp as every other A class mech, it heals itself while using its red beam so that is like regeneration for its health.
It can 'run' just as fast as any other A class mech.
The beam has a low range because if it could reach any further it would be stupid because its auto-aim, it does litle damage because its a role is to HEAL not deal damage and its heating is fine.

[Grogovich]

Cloudstorm, on August 25 2013 - 04:13 AM, said:

Un3thical, on August 25 2013 - 03:15 AM, said:

In the next patch im hoping they nerf the tech so its never seen again, but if they dont maybe make the tech can take more damage while its using its special ability so its more risky using it in the middle of battle_ or maybe take more damage while its healing_

Fingers crossed it gets nerfed to hell anyway.

AGREE tech should be very vulnerable when using special heal plus heat build up should be quicker. Really sick and tired of c class with tech stuck up rear virtually un killable when alone.

Firstly, I wish to apologise to Unethical, Tropt, CloudStorm, JyuVioleGrace, and the other Oceania players, as I believe the combination of myself (Brawler) and DarkMist (Tech) is what has been causing the recent pain

When both the Tech and C class are skilled players, it is a potent mix! As long as the C class can protect the tech, and the tech ducks for cover, both can live for a very long time.

In the matches that I played against DarkMist, I found that if you target him early (instead of the healed partner) you can more often than not eliminate them.

In saying all this though I am for a redesign of the Tech. In its current form I dont consider it too much of a pain (they become a focus point of the battle), but things to make the "Should I or Should I not heal" question difficult / has consequences, and making the healing more skillful, I think it would be great.

The ideas by GodsHolyMember are great. I would probably add ideas for the special ability to instead of the green beam, follow the pattern of the projectile and be a large "blob" that when thrown, where it lands heals everyone in a large range by 300hp_ (amount debatable) This way one specific target can still be focused down, while the tech still helps for the overall battle.

Making the Tech projectile based might be the best idea.

[JyuVioleGrace]

Yeah, definitely, targeting Darkmist (or whoever is tech) first, instead of the healed mech is much, much more effective than trying to out-dps the healing and taking shots yourself. In my own experience, Darkmist usually gets away, but the other guy relying on his heal usually dies, then you can try to hunt Darkmist down.

Of course, if this is difficult due to terrain or whatever, then you should disengage. Sometimes you can lure them out of their cover, then you can nail them with your team mates.