228 replies to this topic

[AsianJoyKiller]

Huanglong, on August 26 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:

Have all you guys ever played a Tech, it isn't that easy.

It is very easy, especially in comparison to every other mech.
Your aiming requirements are much more lax, and you even have simplified heat mechanics.

There's also the fact that healing teammates is a lot less difficult than attacking enemies. Sure a teammate may dodge from time to time and make themselves the easiest to heal, but unlike an enemy, they aren't intentionally trying to avoid you and break LoS

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And make the healbeam a projectile weapon was suggested before and won't happen, because the tech is meant to heal others in battle so if you try to heal someone dodging, you gonna have a bad time.

This is completely untrue.
For that to be true, it would logically follow that all regular weapons would have to be auto-aim too, because otherwise "you would have a bad time".
And yet, people regularly make direct hits with HEAT cannons, EOCs, TOWs, grenades, Detonators, HEs, unlocked Hellfires, etc. etc.

If projectile weapon damage is possible to use, then so is projectile healing.

Also, keep in mind, there is no logical reason healing should be easier than damaging. There is nothing inherent about healing that means it's more acceptable to use low skill mechanics with it. There is no objective reason that in methods other than attacking targets should be any easier.

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Also the beam is sticky so you can fire on enemis to defend yourself or help your teammate, though, if you heal and shoot, the tech overheats really quickly even with heatsinks. It's a mech to encourage teamplay, I know many people seem to not like teamplay, but Hawken is somewhat build around that idea.

First off, shooting and healing at the same time merely puts the Tech's heat generation on par with everybody else. It's not at all difficult to deal with for anybody skilled in heat management.

Secondly, being a healer actually doesn't promote teamplay any more than being an attacker. Running around and healing people fosters no more teamwork than running around killing people. Shooting teammates instead of targets doesn't actually mean there's any more depth in the teamwork being used.

[Huanglong]

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Your aiming requirements are much more lax

Like the Bruiser and Rocketeer and mechs with burst weapons

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Also, keep in mind, there is no logical reason healing should be easier than damaging. There is nothing inherent about healing that means it's more acceptable to use low skill mechanics with it. There is no objective reason that in methods other than attacking targets should be any easier.

It's easier so people actually use the healing abillity. If it were difficult it would be a privilege to only skilled players. The Tech is MEANT to be easy. And if you make it a projectile weapon it needs to be overall stronger than the beam,  in debt of missing shots, so if a skilled player uses the tech he would be even more effective than a the tech like it is now and we would have another "nerf the tech" thread, until it's completly useless.

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Secondly, being a healer actually doesn't promote teamplay any more than being an attacker. Running around and healing people fosters no more teamwork than running around killing people. Shooting teammates instead of targets doesn't actually mean there's any more depth in the teamwork being used.

You actually have to work together with at least one guy, and the enemy team has to work together to defeat you and your mate, because it's not easy to kill someone who is healed by a tech all by your own. It's one of the reasons people want to nerf  it.

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shooting and healing at the same time merely puts the Tech's heat generation on par with everybody else

When it's healing also itself and in a battle it mostly does, it generates even more heat.

[ropefish]

onehourleft, on August 26 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

f_error, on August 26 2013 - 02:38 AM, said:

Huanglong, on August 26 2013 - 02:03 AM, said:

That's your opinion, I like to support my teammates.

Ask them how they feel. Ask the other team.
When you pwn the whole competition because you have a pocket healer.
When you realize, the other guy would have gotten you, without the green laser in your b_tt.
When you have the rare chance to play some nice people and suddenly stomp and frustrate them, because of tech doping.
When you are good enough to take one guy out before you die in a 1:2, but you cant do sh_t in 1:1+tech.
When you play the tech and cant even play bad enough not to be top/high ranked.
When they guys who played great duels just a minute ago, are turned into mindless zombies by a simple laserbeam.
When acceptably balanced teams completely break, because someone just had to bring a tech.
When you have an exciting, tense and close match turned into a 10kill loss by a child that doesnt know about gaming.
When you invest time to learn all those unfamiliar movements/dodges etc, to play hawken as the game tells you to and then get autoaimed by a red beam.
...
When you have tech players all over the top of the board and they even admit "its an easy to play mech".

You can support your teammates in a lot of different ways. For example by not dying, or killing enemies, or protecting them, or even shielding them and eating fire while they repair, or distracting opponents, sharing items, good damage distribution, marking enemies, scouting ...
and in the end by taking things like a man and going down with your brothers in arms.

But i think i mixed sth up. I'm talking on the internet here, right_ Excuse me, ill try to hold back.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Huanglong, on August 26 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

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Your aiming requirements are much more lax

Like the Bruiser and Rocketeer and mechs with burst weapons

I've always complained about Hellfires and their locking mechanics, I won't deny that point.
But the heal beam is also orders of magnitude more reliable and consistent than Hellfires are, plus it's range of stickyness is much greater and lenient than Hellfires.

Saying that aiming requirements for burst weapons is just a straight up lie.
No burst weapon aside from the Hellfires aims itself. In fact, the majority of burst weapons require pinpoint accuracy in order to fully benefit from them, with inaccuracy punished by lower damage, or no damage at all.

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It's easier so people actually use the healing abillity. If it were difficult it would be a privilege to only skilled players. The Tech is MEANT to be easy. And if you make it a projectile weapon it needs to be overall stronger than the beam,  in debt of missing shots, so if a skilled player uses the tech he would be even more effective than a the tech like it is now and we would have another "nerf the tech" thread, until it's completly useless.

It's a fallacy that healing needs to be easy in order for people to use it. Healing is a useful function and will be used regardless of difficulty outside of far extreme.

It's also wrong to imply that healing can either be brain dead easy, as it is currently, or too difficult for your average player. It is entirely possible to create skill-shot based healing that is perfectly accessible to players of all skill levels. It's not either/or.

Ease of use is not an excuse to utilize bad mechanics and create frustrating gameplay.

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You actually have to work together with at least one guy, and the enemy team has to work together to defeat you and your mate, because it's not easy to kill someone who is healed by a tech all by your own. It's one of the reasons people want to nerf it.

People want to nerf the tech because constant healing is a frustrating mechanic to fight, one that is only fun for those benefiting from it, not because it requires teamwork to take them down.

Games like League of Legends and Firefall have avoided constant heals in favor of burst heals and specialized HoTs for that very reason.

The problem is not that it makes people harder to kill. It's that it increases their survivability that makes it not fun to go against somebody being healed by a Tech.

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When it's healing also itself and in a battle it mostly does, it generates even more heat.

But it's still not generating heat at a rate this is out of the ordinary.

[Huanglong]

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Saying that aiming requirements for burst weapons is just a straight up lie.
No burst weapon aside from the Hellfires aims itself. In fact, the majority of burst weapons require pinpoint accuracy in order to fully benefit from them, with inaccuracy punished by lower damage, or no damage at all.

Yes, but still the

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aiming requirements are much more lax

, than of weapons like the Slug rifle, SABOT or Hawkins etc.

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It is entirely possible to create skill-shot based healing that is perfectly accessible to players of all skill levels.

For sure but that don't denies the point that more skilled players would be more effective. If the mastery of this weapon would be so easy that everyone could handle it to an extend that it is still effective, it wouldn't make a great difference, only that you need a little longer to master it, but after a short time everbody would be whining again.

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People want to nerf the tech because constant healing is a frustrating mechanic to fight, one that is only fun for those benefiting from it, not because it requires teamwork to take them down.

I didn't meant that, what I meant was that people want to nerf it because it's difficult to kill someone who is getting healed.

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The problem is not that it makes people harder to kill. It's that it increases their survivability that makes it not fun to go against somebody being healed by a Tech.

If their survivability is increased they are not harder to kill_

[the420jew503]

hendman, on August 25 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

the420jew503, on August 25 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

The Tech added a great property to the game, the need to think before shooting. If you enter a battle and there's a C-Class mech and a Tech coming at you, retreat and think about how to combat it. If your teammates are still battling the two head-on, there's a very good chance you can flank and take them both out from behind. Either they will keep going the direction they're already going, or generally, just the Tech will turn around to fight you leaving the C-Class all on it's own. Quit complaining about the Tech and use some brain power to fight it.

So you run into any other battle with your eyes closed and hope for the best_

Why would I close my eyes_ In other battles, there's less reason to pick who to kill first. Usually I end up shooting at whoever is shooting at me. If there's a Tech on the other side, shooting like that would be pointless. Tech goes first.

[chuiu]

You know, I played a lot of TF2 back in the day, and one of my favorite classes to play was Medic.  So you would think that technician would be a natural fit for me in Hawken.  Its not.  Because in TF2 the medic doesn't break the game.  Having a player + a medic doesn't equal having two people.  Most of the time its more like one and a half.  But in Hawken having a player + technician is more like having two or more people.  What's the difference_

Time to kill.  The time to kill a person in TF2 is drastically shorter than the time to kill a person in Hawken.  The mech's are designed to be heavily armored fighting machines, whereas in TF2 you're playing lightly armored (save for the Heavy) people with guns.  Now why do I continue to compare Hawken and TF2_  Because the technician is as powerful as it is in TF2 save for the ubercharge.  But since the time to kill is so drastically different, having someone healing you in Hawken makes a world of difference.  In TF2 you can kill two people at the same time, instantly, with a rocket.  Medic + other.  In Hawken your splash damage won't be doing that much damage to be able to kill two players at once.  Now I've had moments where I took a couple players who were dumb enough to stand next to each other down to about half health, but it still takes a couple seconds and a lot of burst to do that.

So what do I believe_  Well a lot of the same in this thread, Technician is bad for Hawken.  I want to play it because its fun dodging other players and supporting team mates while not having to worry about 1 on 1 fights.  But I refuse to play it because I know what ends up happening is in drawn out fights like trying to capture the AA it turns the fight one sided as even mediocre players become high score sensations with a pocket technician.

What needs to change_  Well I don't want to say remove technician.  The developers obviously put a lot of work into it and I wouldn't want to see it go to waste.  I have a few ideas I just want to throw out there...

* Simply decrease the healing from technician.  Make it so that having a technician out is useful for a team for the passive healing it can provide to keep people fighting, but not to the point where you can sit there and repair someone while they're fighting and keep them up in a 1v1.  I'm just going to throw out a number I feel is reasonable: 15 hp/s (less than a third what it is now)

* Prevent technicians from healing players who are self repairing.  Pretty self explanatory.  Either you get repaired by a technician, or you repair yourself.  But none of that super-fast-heal BS that happens behind cover after someone falls to 10% of their HP.

OR

* Redesign the heal gun.  First what you're going to want to do is change the default mode not to heal but to damage.  Now give the technician an internal 'heal' tank.  For every bit of damage you deal with the drain gun you start to fill up the tank.  I think increasing the damage might be a good idea, so that you do .5% more damage for each 1% empty your tank is.  Equaling 42 dps on an empty tank. At any time once you have started filling the tank you can switch to the heal gun to shoot beams of glorious healing onto your allies, maybe at a ratio of 1:1.5  damage to healing (you need to do 100 damage to heal 150 health).  Someone can probably balance that better than me.  But also cap the tank at something like 450, just under the health of an A-class, and make sure the number shown on the tank is healing not damage done (you have to deal 300 damage to fill the tank).  Now the special ability will work the same, and will completely disregard the heal tank and just provide free burst healing.  But shorten it by about one second.  Because I've been able to take a C-class up to full health from almost nothing with that thing, and that is just OP.

* Alternative special: Instead of amplification, change the special ability to shield.  Basically anything you're repairing gets a bubble for a few seconds (6-7_) while you repair it.  So you can switch from bubbling one guy to another mid special.  It doesn't make them invincible, since enemies can fly in and still attack, but it does provide a little bit of strategic advantage if you pop it at the right time in a fight.

So, anyway, that's just how I feel.  I honestly would love to see a redesigned heal gun so that the technician had to engage in fights to be able to use its repair ability.

Edited by chuiu, August 26 2013 - 11:56 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Huanglong, on August 26 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

Yes, but still the

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aiming requirements are much more lax

, than of weapons like the Slug rifle, SABOT or Hawkins etc.

No.
The aiming requirements are staggeringly, ridiculously and amazingly more lax than pinpoint weapons like the Sabot or Slug.
But the aiming requirements are still much more lax than every other weapon in the game, Hellfires included.

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For sure but that don't denies the point that more skilled players would be more effective. If the mastery of this weapon would be so easy that everyone could handle it to an extend that it is still effective, it wouldn't make a great difference, only that you need a little longer to master it, but after a short time everbody would be whining again.

First off, effectiveness depending on skill is not a bad thing. That is what creates depth and makes a game interesting and fun to play.

Secondly, it doesn't not at all follow that everybody would go back to complaining about it, because that ignores the fact that skill shot heals can be balanced in a varied manner of ways that aren't frustrating to play against.

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People want to nerf the tech because constant healing is a frustrating mechanic to fight, one that is only fun for those benefiting from it, not because it requires teamwork to take them down.

I didn't meant that, what I meant was that people want to nerf it because it's difficult to kill someone who is getting healed.

I understood perfectly what you meant.
Fighting someone who is being constantly healed is a frustrating mechanic. It is "anti-fun".

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The problem is not that it makes people harder to kill. It's that it increases their survivability that makes it not fun to go against somebody being healed by a Tech.

If their survivability is increased they are not harder to kill_

I worded that poorly.

What I meant is that constant healing makes the targets potential TTK (Time To Kill; what I meant by survivability) much greater, easily doubling or tripling the time it takes to kill them depending on your accuracy. Constant healing effectively acts as damage reduction alongside of replenishing health.

Straight damage reduction isn't a problem. While it makes the TTK longer, once health is gone, it's still gone and requires downtime involved in repairing. It also means that in combat, you don't have the potential to end up with more health than you had a moment ago.

A small burst heal with a Heal over Time that deactivates upon taking damage is a way to make people harder to kill without increasing TTK. The HoT means that if you play smart and get healed behind cover, you can less frequently be at low health (in other words, harder to kill), while the small burst can keep you alive just long enough to get out of combat. But this mechanic isn't sustainable in combat, and you would die at a nearly normal rate.

So that's the problem with constant healing. It provides extra effective health, increasing how long it takes to kill a target, it negates an opponents actions because even in combat it can constantly reverse the damage they do (which is frustrating), and it allows for zero downtime from combat.

[Sixxness]

I would expect the majority of you guys moaning about the Tech, have never attempted using it.

For starters:

1. Its the weakest Mech in game. and some of you are wanting to make it weaker! (probably 400 health or less) would be fine_
2. It can't run to save its own life, nevermind others! This should actually be increased.
3. The health beams are usually to short and don't reach or keep up with teammates that run away too fast. the red beam does little damage; overheating far to quickly while using the guns at the same time.

You could put the Tech up against any Mech, 1v1 and before the other person's health bar is even half damaged the Tech would have already been killed. I'd probably have stopped playing Hawken by now since back in December, had the Tech never became available. My 25+lvl view, step your game up if you feel threatened by such a weak helper.

Edited by Sixxness, August 26 2013 - 12:34 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Sixxness, on August 26 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

I would expect the majority of you guys moaning about the Tech, have never attempted using it.

And you base that on what_

If you're going to make assetions, you should support them with evidence.

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1. Its the weakest Mech in game. and some of you are wanting to make it weaker! (probably 400 health or less) would be fine_

It is far from the weakest mech in the game.
It is the weakest offensively, but the Tech is not an offensive mech, it is a support mech. So being offensively weak is irrelevant, because it doesn't affect the Techs ability to perform as a support class.

And since the Tech is the only support class in the game, it is very powerful indeed. You'd often be better off bringing a Tech along than half the other classes.

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2. It can't run to save its own life, nevermind others! This should actually be increased.

False.
The Tech is an A-Class, and as such, is one of the mechs that are best suited for running, outperformed only by Raiders or Scouts who have their ability ready.

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3. The health beams are usually to short and don't reach or keep up with teammates that run away too fast. the red beam does little damage; overheating far to quickly while using the guns at the same time.

If you find the beam to short, that means either you are positioning yourself wrong, or your teammate is. That is a failure of the pilot, not the mech.

As I said before, the Tech is an A-Class, so unless your teammate is a Raider or Scout who has used their ability, you should have no trouble keeping up. If they keep running away from you while healing, that is, again, the failure of the pilot and not the mech. It merely means you are not communicating properly.

The Vamp beam should only do minor damage, because besides the fact that the Tech is not meant to be used in an offensive role, it is an auto-aiming attack that saps health.

If you're overheating too quickly, that means you have poor heat management skills, which once again, is the failure of the pilot, not the mech.

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You could put the Tech up against any Mech, 1v1 and before the other person's health bar is even half damaged the Tech would have already been killed.

Which is entirely irrelevant because the Tech is about SUPPORT, not OFFENSE.

Claiming the Tech is bad at 1v1ing is pointless. You might as well argue that a screwdriver is bad at putting in nails compared to a hammer. Of course it is. It's a screwdriver. You're not meant to drive nails in by hitting them.

So of course the Tech is bad at 1v1s. It's a Tech. You're not meant to be fighting by yourself, you're supposed to be supporting your teammates with heals and maybe shooting the targets a bit too. 1v1ing in a Tech is a last ditch action of desperation, not a standard role.

[DFTR]

I feel so guilty agreeing w/ most of the posters here...
some of my best friends are techs though!

[BucketOfSkin]

Now this all makes sense why it was difficult using the Tech for Fight Club...

[ReachH]

@ all the people arguing with AJK and saying that the mech is not that hard or whatever,

the point is that any player who is remotely aware of how the game works can play the tech at the highest level with little to no practice.

Why_ Simply because it removes most of the combat requirements. You don't need to focus on combat, only on the situation and your position. Your brain is less stressed, you have more time to make decisions, you have less decisions to make, its simply much easier. Its a dumbed down class, main'd by dumbed down players, and I am increasingly meeting players who play 25 tech at 1900+mmr games, who switch to any other class and suck hardcore before switch back. Because they are too used to playing an easy class. The tech is mechanically retarded, and strategically retarded.

The best techs are the few vets who play tech for fun, or when on a stacked team, or out of necessity because of how the tech redefines breaks team interaction. These are players who have already acquired the skills that playing the tech does not teach.

Mockup of Tech 'high level' skill requirements:

• know about the classes and weapons
  
• know about items
  
• watch the minimap
  
• watch fuel
  
• watch ability cooldown
  
• check item cooldown
  
• situation awareness limited to knowing how to pick a healing target, and when to run
  
• chat and communication

Mockup of any other classes' requirements:

• All of the above, as well as simultaneously:
  
• Managing heat
  
• Weapon aiming
  
• opponent prediction
  
• awareness of overall positions, making decisions where to make the most impact
  
• deciding when to position offensivly, conservatively, when to join allies, or when to flank, when to repair, when not repair, and when pushing an advantage with half health is better
  
• mobility, dodging and boosting, aiming while doing so
  
• maximizing dps by being simultaneously aware of two weapon cooldown, as well as possibly different aiming requirements, moving while doing so

Notice that not only does the non-tech player have to develop efficiency in all those extra skills, they have to refine and practice mechanically so that they can perform all simultaneously, to a high standard. Additionally, none of the harder skills which take time to develop, are on the tech list.

To say that the tech is 'not so easy' is laughable.

The fact that techs finish with so much exp on the top of the boards, for doing so little and inflating their MMR, is a painful irony.

I don't care about nerfs or buffs for the tech. I am of the opinion it should be removed entirely, or at the absolute minimum, completely and utterly redesigned. And this isn't because its easier, or that its dumbing down MMR, it is because it is easier AND game changing, dumbing down the overall game and contributing nothing to gameplay or spectator value.

Edited by ReachH, August 26 2013 - 10:23 PM.

[Huanglong]

I seem to understand the problem a little better now, yet I for myself never really had it. From time to time maybe, but If such a tech-team kills you because of the healing, oh well. There are many other players that kill me with the same ease even without a tech, it's just another kind of challenge for me.

[davek1979]

ReachH, on August 26 2013 - 10:16 PM, said:

@ all the people arguing with AJK and saying that the mech is not that hard or whatever,

the point is that any player who is remotely aware of how the game works can play the tech at the highest level with little to no practice.

Why_ Simply because it removes most of the combat requirements. You don't need to focus on combat, only on the situation and your position. Your brain is less stressed, you have more time to make decisions, you have less decisions to make, its simply much easier. Its a dumbed down class, main'd by dumbed down players, and I am increasingly meeting players who play 25 tech at 1900+mmr games, who switch to any other class and suck hardcore before switch back. Because they are too used to playing an easy class. The tech is mechanically retarded, and strategically retarded.

The best techs are the few vets who play tech for fun, or when on a stacked team, or out of necessity because of how the tech redefines breaks team interaction. These are players who have already acquired the skills that playing the tech does not teach.

Mockup of Tech 'high level' skill requirements:

• know about the classes and weapons
  
• know about items
  
• watch the minimap
  
• watch fuel
  
• watch ability cooldown
  
• check item cooldown
  
• situation awareness limited to knowing how to pick a healing target, and when to run
  
• chat and communication

Mockup of any other classes' requirements:

• All of the above, as well as simultaneously:
  
• Managing heat
  
• Weapon aiming
  
• opponent prediction
  
• awareness of overall positions, making decisions where to make the most impact
  
• deciding when to position offensivly, conservatively, when to join allies, or when to flank, when to repair, when not repair, and when pushing an advantage with half health is better
  
• mobility, dodging and boosting, aiming while doing so
  
• maximizing dps by being simultaneously aware of two weapon cooldown, as well as possibly different aiming requirements, moving while doing so

Notice that not only does the non-tech player have to develop efficiency in all those extra skills, they have to refine and practice mechanically so that they can perform all simultaneously, to a high standard. Additionally, none of the harder skills which take time to develop, are on the tech list.

To say that the tech is 'not so easy' is laughable.

The fact that techs finish with so much exp on the top of the boards, for doing so little and inflating their MMR, is a painful irony.

I don't care about nerfs or buffs for the tech. I am of the opinion it should be removed entirely, or at the absolute minimum, completely and utterly redesigned. And this isn't because its easier, or that its dumbing down MMR, it is because it is easier AND game changing, dumbing down the overall game and contributing nothing to gameplay or spectator value.

Could we get this stickied and possibly printed on T-shirts, advertised in TV and broadcasted on radios _

[Rahh_Vende]

ReachH, on August 26 2013 - 10:16 PM, said:

The fact that techs finish with so much exp on the top of the boards, for doing so little and inflating their MMR, is a painful irony.

This.
This is one of the more infuriating problems, imo. You get players with advanced(game's opinion, not veteran pilot's) MMR, but without the skills to back it up, sometimes not even with tech. It is downright game-breaking to have 2-3 people on your team that can not put up with the opposition, but still their MMR is high enough for the autobalancer to level them with non-tech-inflated MMR. While it must be fun for the other team, it most certainly is not fun to be stuck with them. Also I find it miraculous how little team awareness many tech pilots have for a mech that in it's fans opinion 'promotes' teamplay.

In addition to other adjustments, I'd like to see the Tech's assist XP halved, and the assist XP that you get for a while after you stopped repping and moved on removed altogether. Buff the exp you get from healing a bit to offset the the xp drop that would cause, if need be, but it is ridiculous how much XP a tech can generate in comparison to what you get from killing enemies.

Edited by Rahh_Vende, August 26 2013 - 11:12 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Rahh_Vende, on August 26 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

ReachH, on August 26 2013 - 10:16 PM, said:

The fact that techs finish with so much exp on the top of the boards, for doing so little and inflating their MMR, is a painful irony.

This.
This is one of the more infuriating problems, imo. You get players with advanced(game's opinion, not veteran pilot's) MMR, but without the skills to back it up, sometimes not even with tech. It is downright game-breaking to have 2-3 people on your team that can not put up with the opposition, but still their MMR is high enough for the autobalancer to level them with non-tech-inflated MMR. While it must be fun for the other team, it most certainly is not fun to be stuck with them. Also I find it miraculous how little team awareness many tech pilots have for a mech that in it's fans opinion 'promotes' teamplay.

In addition to other adjustments, I'd like to see the Tech's assist XP halved, and the assist XP that you get for a while after you stopped repping and moved on removed altogether. Buff the exp you get from healing a bit to offset the the xp drop that would cause, if need be, but it is ridiculous how much XP a tech can generate in comparison to what you get from killing enemies.

I believe ADH has made the claim that the Tech's XP gain is bugged. They haven't bothered to fix it because HAB.