288 replies to this topic

[LoC_TR]

Luminescent, on January 09 2014 - 03:20 AM, said:

snip*

I expect many more graphs and charts after this update.

[SeasonzTZK]

Good looking so far; Im glad test drives are back specially; I've recommended the game to some people and I doubt they would like to hustle so much to try a mech and not like it by the end; test drives work!

Im not sure how you'll compensate the tuning points part but overall I like the upcoming changes! Thanks Devs!

[HugeGuts]

JeffMagnum, on January 09 2014 - 12:40 AM, said:

More generally though, pigeonholing a mech into a certain role via predetermined tuning makes certain configurations significantly less viable than they are now and eliminates even more choice than it appears to on the surface.

This is why I hope eventually every mech follows what the Fire Fighter will do - It only has one primary weapon type, but multiple versions of it. Even with fixed tuning only working with one weapon type, having multiple weapon versions with slight number and mechanical tweaks can change how a class approaches combat without changing a class' intended role.

In addition, its possible to even have primary weapons affect how a secondary weapon functions for even more game play mix ups. For example, the Fire Fighter's secondary weapon uses heat generation to fuel its power. Primary version one only has standard heat generation. Version two has high heat generation. Version three increases heat generation in enemies, which the Fire Fighter can then absorb with the secondary's alternate fire. More heat generation = more heat absorption = more secondary power!

Internals can change combat approaches without affecting class role as well. They just can't be flat boosts like now. They have to be a percentage of an existing stat, or an ability if the internal would be too strong as a passive boost.

Edited by HugeGuts, January 09 2014 - 07:25 AM.

[DaDMaR]

Love the new NooB Paint work.

I would pay to change that.(hint)

Will wait till after play before comment.

Always trying to improve game is good.

Edited by DaDMaR, January 09 2014 - 07:42 AM.

[Zhoyzu]

2x post i deleted

Edited by Zhoyzu, January 09 2014 - 07:44 AM.

[Zhoyzu]

Quote

Removal of Tuning Points

Another major change is our decision to remove Tuning Points from being used by players. Now, each mech's strength will be determined ahead of time and will not change as a pilot progresses.  Instead of being required to advance through pilot progression to acquire tuning points, players will have access to a fully balanced experience right out of the gate. The system still exists and we're able to use it in the background to really balance out each mech but it will no longer be something that players add points to over time.

this isnt a solution. i like to counter balance fuzzy bunny rather then enforce strengths. RIP hawken

[Morticius]

like yellow bronco said: 30 points to play with, across the board;  Will there be a Garage Sale feature added soon_ Would it incorporate player to player exchanges for different mechs or HC/MC transfer, or just backloading the mech to HWK for HC/MC_ Is it a bird_ Is it a plane_
Still can't beat the price for the game. Rock on, Devs!

I want my zero ping value back, too....

Edited by Morticius, January 09 2014 - 08:15 AM.

[DFTR]

JeffMagnum, on January 09 2014 - 12:40 AM, said:

I'm personally upset about the loss in tuning options primarily because of what the devs are going to force the Berserker to be, as Airzerker certainly isn't the optimal build for everyone, including me. I've really been enjoying Zerker as of late to the extent that it's my new favorite mech, but now I realize I'm going to have to go back to tryharding in Scout to have remotely as much fun as I do now. The rationale given in the show tonight was that they're trying to keep players from making "bad" tuning decisions to ensure more balanced gameplay--the only issue is that what might be a poor tuning decision to one person might not be to another.

More generally though, pigeonholing a mech into a certain role via predetermined tuning makes certain configurations significantly less viable than they are now and eliminates even more choice than it appears to on the surface. One of the first examples that comes to mind is the Raider: a build optimal for the Reflak is probably not the best choice for EOC because of the completely different characteristics and playstyles of the two weapons. Someone who prefers to play the Brawler as a medium-range mech with the SA may not prioritize the movement tuning options as much as someone who wants to focus on CQC with the Flak or Vulcan, and someone who runs Miniflak instead of SMC on Vanguard may want to throw some points in Heatsinks that wouldn't be necessary with the latter weapon.

I understand that taking away this form of customization this makes balancing easier, but you might as well just remove the weapon options that don't mesh well with the planned tuning configurations, as someone using an inappropriate weapon for the preconfigured build will be at a significant disadvantage compared to someone who uses the weapon or weapons that are intended to be used. The gap between level one and level 30 players needed to be significantly reduced, but I'm not convinced that this was the best way to go about doing so.

  There's hints that they may be adding more internals/items... perhaps that will add back some variability/customization according to play style_  I'm waiting to play the new patch before judging... however it does seem a step back especially from all the selling points about Ascension that you can customize the mech to your playstyle.  Remember the main complaint about the "Optimization trees" were that everyone took the same lines which made very little difference... so now they're basically giving you an "optimized" mech.

At any rate, I really hope they add a significant amount of depth to the internals/items.  For the most part, everyone carries Shield/EMP/Repair charge.  Occasionally a good player will handicap themselves or mess around w/ holograms or barriers.  Internals also seem to follow a narrow window.  

  As I understand the only difference mech levels will make is for cosmetic pieces_  I feel they've swung the pendelum too far away from the action RPG genre (leveling up mechs/pilots).  It's like how they nerfed the healing internals after everyone complained.  In my opinion, it would have been smarter to give everyone 30 tuning points and watch how everyone tuned.  Steps not giant leaps.

Edited by DFTR, January 09 2014 - 08:01 AM.

[Greenvalv]

JeffMagnum, on January 09 2014 - 12:40 AM, said:

the only issue is that what might be a poor tuning decision to one person might not be to another.

Someone who prefers to play the Brawler as a medium-range mech with the SA may not prioritize the movement tuning options as much as someone who wants to focus on CQC with the Flak or Vulcan, and someone who runs Miniflak instead of SMC on Vanguard may want to throw some points in Heatsinks that wouldn't be necessary with the latter weapon.

This is my concern as well.  My SA Brawler and Mini-Flak Scout is built for moar dakka while my Flak Brawler/Scout is for dancing (or attempt at).  However, I think I remember them saying in the Cockpit last night that they were rebalancing the weapons along with this new system_  Time will tell...

Lately, I've been shaking up my tuning builds and have found some odd builds to work.  Gonna miss the tuning freedom...

[Paschar]

Can't wait to see how this plays!

[LoC_TR]

Questions for ZC and the cockpit...

a. How do stats based on previous versions of the beta affect the way matchmaker decides a good game or not_ Will it take time for the matchmaker to develop a better idea of a skilled player_ I'm just afraid stats won't accurately represent  a players skill as far as numbers go especially after so much change. I know you've reset the stats in the past, I just wasn't sure if that's something you are considering or necessarily needed at this point.

b. Full garage control mid-match_ ability to change out internals, weapons, items... not cosmetics.

Spoiler

[KejiGoto]

I posted this in another thread but I figured I'd post it here as well.

For those of you concerned about playing a mech one way or another that is different from most you need to keep something in mind. The developers aren't just removing vertical progression and calling it a day there. There's a strong chance that base stats are being adjusted on mechs before they do their back end tuning point distribution which will aid in keeping mechs useful with each specific load out. I don't see Adhesive nerfing Berserker so it is only useful in air combat and all other approaches to the mech are no longer viable. There's a lot coming with this next patch in how mechs play and handle.

Also I think some people are overlooking that certain mechs are somewhat over powered in the game currently and this is an issue that needs to be dealt with. There's a reason you only see certain mechs on the battlefield because in many ways certain mechs are far too versatile with what combat roles they fill. Warpig pointed this out to me last night after The Cockpit ended; one thing Hawken has been sorely lacking on is quickly identifying a mech and knowing what it is gonna throw at you. Mechs have always been (somewhat) geared towards specific combat roles in Hawken. Don't believe me_ Look at the mech tree. While that isn't a perfect representation of this idea as some classifications don't make sense (Scout as defense lulz) this has been a goal for Hawken for some time and this is helping to work towards that goal.

[Saturnine]

So there's a lot of concern about how mechs might get pigeonholed into roles players may not like and stuff. Remember that the changes to balance are not wedded to current stats - I would be shocked if this patch gave us mechs with identical stats, and were just what we have now with the 30 tuning points shuffled around, and called good. What we're much more likely to see is balance changes to each mech, and further balance changes to the weapons to match.

Removal of vertical progression is not happening in a vacuum, as Vana said on the show, the changes we heard about last night only constitute about 5% of what's coming. That's obviously a number he pulled out of nowhere and probably won't end up completely accurate, but a massive amount of things are coming, whether it be balance or content or matchmaking or whatever. Horizontal progression will be an important part of what is happening, but it isn't the only thing.

[craftydus]

I'm not aware of a single complaint about having a tuning system by players, ever. I'm baffled. Carry on.

[ShadowWarg]

If internals are going to be the main focus for how to customize a mech, wouldn't it be better to expand the number of internals slots available by 2 or 3 or something_

[Bwnerstorms]

Sounds Good!
To those w/ concerns- they may be warranted, but it's too early to worry.
I personally thought the tuning points system sucked.
Because the base values on some mechs were so gimped that you needed to dump so many points to compensate(BRAWLER).
I think "one size fits all" specs may be possible if they tweak the base values behind the scenes. (and I imagine they will).
We'll see- I may hate it, but I'm looking forward to it atm.
Gimme my old crosshair, health/fuel meters, and top right radar next!

[Daronicus]

craftydus, on January 09 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

I'm not aware of a single complaint about having a tuning system by players, ever. I'm baffled. Carry on.

A long time ago, when it was first introduced, I complained about it.  My feeling has always been that allowing players too much choice makes balance a daunting task, coupled with the fact that tuning didn't really accomplish what it was meant to do (giving players the choice to make subclasses different from each other) in most cases.  In my opinion, the current tuning system has a bad combination of restriction and freedom that makes countless options available but very rarely actually changes how a mech plays.  Honestly, other than air dynamics, I don't really feel that there's a tuning option that makes me play a mech differently than how others do it.  At the time, I think I said something about the devs focusing on juggling three chainsaws rather than twenty scarves.

I think mechs should feel different from the get-go, and variety in playstyles should come from mech choice (and to a lesser extent, item and internal choices), not in minute point allocations.  If you don't like playing airzerker (for the record, I like to keep my feet planted on the ground and the Berserker is in my top five favorites, so I'm not thrilled with airzerker winning out), there are other mechs out there that allow you a similar role to the groundzerker.  They might be in different weight classes, but paired with some speed changes (pretty please_), maybe that won't be a huge issue.  I don't think we need to fine-tune every single player into a super tiny niche.  So long as there are a couple mechs filling every role with some interesting differences between them, I think we're gold.

Edited by Daronicus, January 09 2014 - 10:26 AM.

[Sylhiri]

DFTR, on January 09 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:

As I understand the only difference mech levels will make is for cosmetic pieces_  I feel they've swung the pendelum too far away from the action RPG genre (leveling up mechs/pilots).  It's like how they nerfed the healing internals after everyone complained.

I was not aware this was an action RPG. Always thought it was a mech FPS.

[R0GU3_L47R0]

AVE TEST DRIVE!!!
Why I spent so much Hawken Points to upgrade of my Technician's ability_ WHY__

[Gumby789]

The majority of changes from Ascension are being roll-backed, is this an early Aprils fools joke_