160 replies to this topic

[Leonhardt]

Deadmen_Tim, on May 20 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

Leonhardt, on May 20 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

I should hope you do since your entire argument is based on Nept being a benefactor of A-class AC abuse as you were asserting. In a way it renders your entire argument moot.

Just read it again. This is only one fail of the Nept's "argument", i'll wait for him to answer. You're kinda calm and thus not that funny to talk with. I have a lot to say about AC and this is only one liiiiitle detail, if you'll think about AC more as not a biased person, you will naturally see more.

hint: you can try to read this thread from the beginning.

Asking someone to not be biased is like asking a dog not to eat its own fuzzy bunny. People are always bias and dogs always eat their own p00p (fun fact they also eat the p00p of other animals to maintain their territory). Everyone is bias including you and if you fail to see that then it will cause a lot of conflict here and elsewhere in your life.

I have already read this whole thread from the beginning and to be frank I see little actual evidence in favor of your argument. Nept says what he says and I say what I say, we are two separate people. While you may not like his argument regarding personal remarks that does not dissuade me from concurring with his in game points about AC.

Personally I only use AC on the zerker. I don't think its worth the 3 slots it takes up on the other A-classes when compared to other builds available that help traverse fuel cost and health issues on A-classes. Using more fuel for the same or similar outcome isn't efficient.

Edited by Leonhardt, May 20 2014 - 09:42 AM.

[Deadmen_Tim]

Leonhardt, on May 20 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

words

Did you just said... nothing_ Don't get me wrong, it was very well put together and you seem way more calm, hence i'll talk with you in civilized manner, but that was kinda empty. As i said, it's just a little and not really important part of the big base. I still waiting our hot friend.

[Leonhardt]

Deadmen_Tim, on May 20 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

Leonhardt, on May 20 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

words

Did you just said... nothing_ Don't get me wrong, it was very well put together and you seem way more calm, hence i'll talk with you in civilized manner, but that was kinda empty. As i said, it's just a little and not really important part of the big base. I still waiting our hot friend.

There is nothing for me to write that hasn't already been discussed in this thread. I did not say anything, however I did write a coherent set of sentences with an overarching answer to your response. Its usually common courtesy to answer people.

[Deadmen_Tim]

Leonhardt, on May 20 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

Its usually common courtesy to answer people.

K. Tho i value info more than courtesy, let's stay on topic.

P.S. On second thought, it's good to keep this thread hot.

Have a good something (day, evening_).

[ticklemyiguana]

There's a trend in this forum. People who are dicks to people don't make sense when they talk and rely on attempts to make fun of someone to get their point across. A recent poll determined about half the people in this forum are over 25. "Arguments" like Deadmen_Tim's (and many others on the forum) just don't fly. (This is in reference to the sarcastic "sorry"s and other fuzzy bunny.) It makes people not care at all about what you're saying and just want to fight it because you're being rude to them-not to mention there seems to be some inverse correlation between the amount of it used and how much logic and evidence are used in a statement.

Just because someone's good at a game doesn't mean they know how to make one or fix one... or just generally make sense.
The amount of fuel an air dodge uses is pretty high. It takes up three spots, and as Leon said, that's a fair amount when there are more efficient builds for different playstyles.
As someone else pointed out, it is handy in countering or at least minimizing the effect of remote detonated splash damage weaponry-it's also easy to hit air dodging mechs with anything faster than your typical rocket-and still easy with considering the AC has a set dodge distance. The idea that it's "game breaking" in any way is pretty absurd, and as far as I can tell, the result of people panicking in combat and getting fooled by it, even though many of the same people for whatever reason aren't complaining about ground based dodges (which don't use fuel and can be easily followed up with an immediate boost in any direction). Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's kind of ridiculous that something that uses so much fuel (and usually you have to be using fuel to use it in the first place [being in the air]) takes up item slots, and is basically just a less powerful mirror image of ground capabilities is being considered OP.

I do like Xacius' suggestion with the increase of air mobility in general as an internal, but I'm not positive the AC's effect should be made universal. Lower the level cap by a lot, definitely though.

Deadmen_Tim, on May 20 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

Leonhardt, on May 20 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

Its usually common courtesy to answer people.

K. Tho i value info more than courtesy, let's stay on topic.

P.S. On second thought, it's good to keep this thread hot.

Have a good something (day, evening_).

I'm not sure it is good. It really just seems like a bloated "debate" where people keep reiterating the same points.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, May 20 2014 - 10:50 AM.

[Deadmen_Tim]

Ok, lets make it clear for people and even iguanas with dyslexia.

Nept - add more AC; because AC users are easy to hit with hitscan and detonatable weapons.

Why is this bad_ Because we have a lot of ways to fight that are not hitscan and detonatable weapons. Mechs and weapons that are out of the boat: Bruiser, Rocketeer, Incinerator, Pred, Heat Cannon in most cases, REV-GL, B3-AR-M4MA, REDOX-O2, EOC and maybe other stuff i don't remember. That's already enough to drop this idea as incompetent.

What else about making AC universal is bad_ Endless kite as A vs. B and C-class. Happens a lot in pub games that are overwhelming majority of the games.

Something-for-Nothing exchanges as a hitscan user vs. non-hitscan user.

3 little things that makes this idea even more incompetent and casual than current Hawken already is.

Edited by Deadmen_Tim, May 20 2014 - 11:37 AM.

[ticklemyiguana]

What_
Your English is fine. That just didn't make sense. Perhaps you misread_ I never asked for universal AC.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, May 20 2014 - 12:01 PM.

[TheVulong]

Quote

The amount of fuel an air dodge uses is pretty high. It takes up three spots, and as Leon said, that's a fair amount when there are more efficient builds for different playstyles.

Disagree. I tried AC a few days ago and it was ridiculous how much more agile and reckless i could be. And i said this many times: AC not only gives you extra movement options which is way more useful than some passive buff or situational bonus but also makes your movement less predictable in general and favors yolo diving more than ever before.

Quote

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's kind of ridiculous that something that uses so much fuel (and usually you have to be using fuel to use it in the first place [being in the air]) takes up item slots, and is basically just a less powerful mirror image of ground capabilities is being considered OP.

First, there is such thing as Fuel Converter.
Second, every other internal takes item slots as well.
Third. Air Dodge advantages combine with flight advantages such as high ground, flight speed advantage over walking speed for most mechs, superiority over mechs with projectile weapons without manual detonation(EOC Raider says Hello) and once again less predictable movement due to the lack of terrain around the flying mech.

Quote

I do like Xacius' suggestion with the increase of air mobility

I don't. Do what this guys says and Hawken will completely evolve into jet fighter sim.

[Nept]

Deadmen_Tim, on May 20 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:

Hehe, i hear Restowned wispers in your ear. He still remembers demonstration, isn't he_ Bragtime! Last guy of Murica, RedVan (or something) with mouth as big as yours ended up with like 0-10, 0-12 score vs. me. It was sweet pre-Ascention with way less casuality. Gather company, and maybe i'll start to play as much Hawken as i played during the good old times just for you and co.

P.M. And dear Nept, feel free to PM me with all the words you have about me. Nothing censored in my PM, it's the only place with true Democracy. Just use @#$@#$.

Leonhardt, on May 19 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

I dont think you have played with Nept much. He mostly plays B-classes and mains the SS.

Who cares_ Just poking random guy with pointy stick. Although i missed, reaction was great.

Deadmen_Tim, on May 20 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

Leonhardt, on May 20 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

words

Did you just said... nothing_ Don't get me wrong, it was very well put together and you seem way more calm, hence i'll talk with you in civilized manner, but that was kinda empty. As i said, it's just a little and not really important part of the big base. I still waiting our hot friend.

Deadmen_Tim, on May 20 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

Ok, lets make it clear for people and even iguanas with dyslexia.

Nept - add more AC; because AC users are easy to hit with hitscan and detonatable weapons.

Why is this bad_ Because we have a lot of ways to fight that are not hitscan and detonatable weapons. Mechs and weapons that are out of the boat: Bruiser, Rocketeer, Incinerator, Pred, Heat Cannon in most cases, REV-GL, B3-AR-M4MA, REDOX-O2, EOC and maybe other stuff i don't remember. That's already enough to drop this idea as incompetent.

What else about making AC universal is bad_ Endless kite as A vs. B and C-class. Happens a lot in pub games that are overwhelming majority of the games.

Something-for-Nothing exchanges as a hitscan user vs. non-hitscan user.

3 little things that makes this idea even more incompetent and casual than current Hawken already is.

Deadmen_Tim, on May 20 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

Leonhardt, on May 20 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

Its usually common courtesy to answer people.

K. Tho i value info more than courtesy, let's stay on topic.

P.S. On second thought, it's good to keep this thread hot.

Have a good something (day, evening_).

I don't know about you, but I'm inclined to believe that someone spamming "this guy's so mad" posts is actually the one's who mad.  It's still simple stuff: your assertions about AC allowing "infinite kite" at "ultra-low" risk are patently false.  You've been offered an opportunity to demonstrate your claims.  Now as I see it, you can attempt to respond to myself or Leon properly, take up my demonstration offer, or continue spamming angry posts.

*Edit* Sorry, of course.  Almost forgot: you are more than welcome to "gather your company and play more Hawken".  I'm sure that you'll do as well against my team as you did against Redvan.

Edited by Nept, May 20 2014 - 12:07 PM.

[Deadmen_Tim]

Nept, on May 20 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

It's still simple stuff: your assertions about AC allowing "infinite kite" at "ultra-low" risk are patently false

The magic of reading, it is so hard sometimes. Especially when you're in hurry to write another nonsense post.
https://community.pl..._80#entry525398

[Aregon]

Sorry, but got to protect Timmy.

If you are from the north like all the Russians and most of the Scandinavians you may have gotten used to 110-180 ping, but then we add AC to the mix...

I personally don't give a damn about AC, but I will agree that it needs a change.

[Nept]

Deadmen_Tim, on May 20 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

Nept, on May 20 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

It's still simple stuff: your assertions about AC allowing "infinite kite" at "ultra-low" risk are patently false

The magic of reading, it is so hard sometimes. Especially when you're in hurry to write another nonsense post.
https://community.pl..._80#entry525398

I'm operating under the assumption that the player is a good player who's able to hit targets in the air.

*Edit* I suppose if you're used to spamming splash weaponry in the enemy's general vicinity, AC might present a problem.  I'm gaining a better understanding of your situation.

Edited by Nept, May 20 2014 - 12:12 PM.

[TheVulong]

Quote

If you are from the north like all the Russians and most of the Scandinavians you may have gotten used to 110-180 ping, but then we add AC to the mix...

"We can't balance the game around ping", Aregon. Sad but true.

[ticklemyiguana]

TheVulong, on May 20 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Quote

The amount of fuel an air dodge uses is pretty high. It takes up three spots, and as Leon said, that's a fair amount when there are more efficient builds for different playstyles.

Disagree. I tried AC a few days ago and it was ridiculous how much more agile and reckless i could be. And i said this many times: AC not only gives you extra movement options which is way more useful than some passive buff or situational bonus but also makes your movement less predictable in general and favors yolo diving more than ever before.

Yes, you're more agile, and sure, if you're playing against people who don't understand how to aim against people who dodge, then of course you can be more reckless. It does give you an extra movement option, but that's all. It doesn't give you any passive buff. You have to actively use it to get use from it and when you do you burn extra fuel. The same argument could be made in reverse.

TheVulong, on May 20 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Quote

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's kind of ridiculous that something that uses so much fuel (and usually you have to be using fuel to use it in the first place [being in the air]) takes up item slots, and is basically just a less powerful mirror image of ground capabilities is being considered OP.

First, there is such thing as Fuel Converter.
Second, every other internal takes item slots as well.
Third. Air Dodge advantages combine with flight advantages such as high ground, flight speed advantage over walking speed for most mechs, superiority over mechs with projectile weapons without manual detonation(EOC Raider says Hello) and once again less predictable movement due to the lack of terrain around the flying mech.

First. And_
Second. And_
Third. An internal gives you an advantage. That's the point of an internal. Non-manual detonation weapons_ EOC repeater lets you spam mines on the ground. Taking to the air is a totally effective counter (and if you don't have AC you might as well be standing still while getting over them). Heat cannon gives terrific burst damage and if you charge it you only miss if you're particularly bad at aiming. Other non-det weapons are bullets or secondaries with other benefits unless I'm missing something.

TheVulong, on May 20 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Quote

I do like Xacius' suggestion with the increase of air mobility

I don't. Do what this guys says and Hawken will completely evolve into jet fighter sim.

I did say I didn't like the idea of it being universal. Also, why the hell is greater aerial combat bad_ Without air mobility we might as well just be playing with tanks.

Aregon, on May 20 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

Sorry, but got to protect Timmy.

If you are from the north like all the Russians and most of the Scandinavians you may have gotten used to 110-180 ping, but then we add AC to the mix...

This is unfortunately true, but such is life. This is less a game issue and more a playerbase per location issue.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, May 20 2014 - 12:18 PM.

[Aregon]

AND ALSO:

The most annoying thing I find with the players in the American region is how c0cky you guys can be. "Oh you don't like an internal_ Let me brag the buzzy out of how easy it is to fight against that things."

Not everyone got time to learn and adapt at the speed of you. The Russians got to play with high ping and 3-4 AM in the morning to play with others. Even if somebody dislikes something which can be very frustrating for them for different reasons you shouldn't need to attack that guy. Sure, if it is stupid as f*ck one can make an exception, but if they got legit reasons you shouldn't try to fight like you was in a fight club.

And that is the biggest problem with the American "veteran high-tier" players: they take everything that could work against them as offensive. You are protecting a company who wants to have your money while someone is suggesting changes to make that product sell better.

TL;DR: Be less d0uchy 'murikhans.

[Nept]

Aregon, on May 20 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

And that is the biggest problem with the American "veteran high-tier" players: they take everything that could work against them as offensive. You are protecting a company who wants to have your money while someone is suggesting changes to make that game easier for themselves.

TL;DR: Be less d0uchy 'murikhans.

Fixed that for you.

[ticklemyiguana]

Aregon, on May 20 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

AND ALSO:

The most annoying thing I find with the players in the American region is how c0cky you guys can be. "Oh you don't like an internal_ Let me brag the buzzy out of how easy it is to fight against that things."

Not everyone got time to learn and adapt at the speed of you. The Russians got to play with high ping and 3-4 AM in the morning to play with others. Even if somebody dislikes something which can be very frustrating for them for different reasons you shouldn't need to attack that guy. Sure, if it is stupid as f*ck one can make an exception, but if they got legit reasons you shouldn't try to fight like you was in a fight club.

And that is the biggest problem with the American "veteran high-tier" players: they take everything that could work against them as offensive. You are protecting a company who wants to have your money while someone is suggesting changes to make that product sell better.

TL;DR: Be less d0uchy 'murikhans.

Come on, dude. That was straight racist. Individuals do not serve as representatives of a country or ethnic group's population.

You have a point with the ping, but when the majority of players are in the US, then why would dumbing down the game for the sake of minorities (this is business, not politics-minority populations are going to justifiably have less sway) as opposed to trying to get more people playing in those regions by doing a better job advertising there be a good idea for anyone_

Edited by ticklemyiguana, May 20 2014 - 12:30 PM.

[Aregon]

ticklemyiguana, on May 20 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

Aregon, on May 20 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

AND ALSO:

The most annoying thing I find with the players in the American region is how c0cky you guys can be. "Oh you don't like an internal_ Let me brag the buzzy out of how easy it is to fight against that things."

Not everyone got time to learn and adapt at the speed of you. The Russians got to play with high ping and 3-4 AM in the morning to play with others. Even if somebody dislikes something which can be very frustrating for them for different reasons you shouldn't need to attack that guy. Sure, if it is stupid as f*ck one can make an exception, but if they got legit reasons you shouldn't try to fight like you was in a fight club.

And that is the biggest problem with the American "veteran high-tier" players: they take everything that could work against them as offensive. You are protecting a company who wants to have your money while someone is suggesting changes to make that product sell better.

TL;DR: Be less d0uchy 'murikhans.

Come on, dude. That was straight racist. Individuals do not serve as representatives of a country or ethnic group's population.

You have a point with the ping, but when the majority of players are in the US, then why would dumbing down the game for the sake of minorities (this is business, not politics-minority populations are going to justifiably have less sway) as opposed to trying to get more people playing in those regions by doing a better job advertising there be a good idea for anyone_

Im just tired of American players saying how good they are at the game. You must have noticed it you too, I mean c'mon.

[Deadmen_Tim]

Hello, Aregon. Thanks, but i don't need any protection. Nept already failed to read and thus to counter my arguments about why universal AC is a bad decision. And btw, Aregon. I didn't said a single word about my ping, since it's only my problem.

[Aregon]

Deadmen_Tim, on May 20 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

Hello, Aregon. Thanks, but i don't need any protection. Nept already failed to read and thus to counter my arguments about why universal AC is a bad decision. And btw, Aregon. I didn't said a single word about my ping, since it's only my problem.

I ALSO MENTIONED SCANDINAVIA DANGIT.

Our ping sucks more balls than [REDACTED] Gray!