160 replies to this topic

[DerMax]

DaPheel, on May 21 2014 - 02:17 AM, said:

1-2-3

At this point, I would agree on anything, to be honest. The devs are not going to spend a lot of resources on something like Lumi's Framework, and all we can ask for is a quick fix (at best).

Edited by DerMax, May 21 2014 - 03:04 AM.

[LarryLaffer]

DaPheel, on May 21 2014 - 02:17 AM, said:

1. Introduce it as a core mechanic.
This will result in "swarms of angry Bees" everywhere, but at least we're all Bees. I can't see the Dev's doing this, as it would mean refunds for those who purchased it, or no refunds and angry players.

2. Increase airborne Spread.
This would help with regards to a lot of mechs like flying 'Zerkers. I don't think it would really affect people who used a.c. with splash weapons, like Heat, Rev-gl e.t.c. So we'd just see a shift to this weapon type.

3.Reduce the number of slots a.c. takes up to 1 slot.
I think this may be the most viable. I know that 1 slot sounds crazy, but how often have you found yourself with a slot spare_ No need to refund/annoy players who already have it, like in my first point, and the rest of the playerbase could purchase and use it, whilst still being able to take other internal loadouts that they like.

Here also comes an aesthetic aspect of game. C and B-Class dodging in the air just looks ugly, especially with current air dodging physics. There is no inertia at all. So no matter how Air Compressor will be balanced, its physics clearly need to be reworked. Inertia should be added to air dodges.

Also about physics, something should be done with jumppads and AC interaction, Players either should have an ability to break jumppad flight even without AC, or shouldn't have such ability at all, so that they'll have to be more careful while using jumppad.

Just air spread increacing will not help to solve the problem with AC IMO. But it'll hardly nerf SS/Reaper pilots who tends to fly while sniping distant targets (which is kind of dumb tactic too, you know...)

1 slot AC is almost equal to making air dodges as a core mechanic. There will always be some place for AC So in this case it's better to make AC something different. For example, if air dodges will be core mechanic, let's increace fuel cost per dodge, let's say, up to 20-25 liters/dodge. Air Compressor will reduce fuel cost to 10-15 liters/dodge and at same time will have some drawback, like 5% air or all speed decreace, or increaced dodge cooldown, or something like that. AC should have reasonable size in that case. Thus all mechs will have some more evasive potential, but players will have more choices.

Edited by LarryLaffer, May 21 2014 - 04:22 AM.

[Superkamikazee]

Nept, on May 20 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

Things

That's all well and good, but the fact remains there's no disadvantage to being up in the air spinning, twirling, and dancing around bullets while firing down on your grounded adversaries. It's quite the opposite, AC is the advantage, and it's not balanced in the slightest simply because there is so much splash damage in Hawken (which you already mentioned). There needs to be some penalty for life in the skies, and that's spread.  AC can be standard issue, but a price needs to be paid for all air parties. These damn kids and their air parties, get off my lawn....wait, they're in the air and not on my lawn.

[nepacaka]

TheVulong, on May 20 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

Quote

Heat cannon gives terrific burst damage

All the Brawlers out there just smiled.

Quote

In a fight lack of fuel stops beinng a problem for the AC users as the enemy shots constantly refill it.

And what we have_
we have all problem just because because devs delete spread and fuel. if devs was not turn hawken into casual sh-t, problem was not exist.

Quote

Anyone suggest a one dodge in the air limit until you touch back down yet_

this is wrong solution!
this way only added "bunny-hopping" style in game. jump-dodge-jump-dodge

Quote

If air compressor becomes universal, we need more interesting internals.

wrong again.

why_
berserk internals: AD, repir-kit, deflectors
brawler internals: Fusor-3, repair-kit, deflectors

brawler can't give so much advantages with air-dodge. maybe only on Origin map. berserk with AD gain more advantages

if AD created by default for all mech.
berserk internals: Fusor-3, repir-kit, deflectors
brawler internals: Fusor-3, repair-kit, deflectors

brawler still can't fly, but bers now use AD and fusor-mk3.
see_

make AC on default - it's not good decision.

Quote

1 slot AC is almost equal to making air dodges as a core mechanic.

and why it's needed_
each people just will be setup it by default. now, all people in game have a 5 slots for other internals instead 6. it's just like talent tree, after 1 months all people use 0/15/10 bild
=/

Edited by nepacaka, May 21 2014 - 09:56 AM.

[nepacaka]

i think i find good solution for Air-Dodge.
just make AD for 7 slots.
problem solved.


edit: some internals...

Edited by nepacaka, May 21 2014 - 09:22 AM.

[Nept]

Nept, on May 20 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

Since I've yet to see a decent analysis, I've decided to provide one:

Tim and company argue that AC detracts from the game's skill by providing players an “ultra-low risk” maneuverability option. They believe that Hawken should emphasize tactical positioning, and that AC preempts any such emphasis. There is also the possibility that they want AC removed for their own gain; that is, that its removal would benefit their performance by reducing Hawken's aiming requirements.

Leon and I are arguing that AC adds to the game's skill (and that its removal would lower the game's skill ceiling) by forcing players – including those players using proximity-heavy splash weaponry – to strike targets possessing expanded maneuverability options. In other words, AC decreases the system's redundancy and adds another uncertainty to the aiming process. We believe that Hawken should emphasize aiming ability alongside tactical positioning, and that AC actually contributes to tactical variation (and thus, to the skill ceiling). There is also the possibility that we want AC emphasized for our own gain; that is, that its presence provides us the means to circumvent tactical positioning. I think it's particularly telling, though, that both myself and Leon main classes that would only benefit from AC's removal – at least regarding ease-of-use. Tim's assertion that it doesn't matter whether I main A-classes is quite incorrect: the fact that I don't main A-classes and yet want AC to remain a core gameplay component indicates my desire for a skill-based and challenging game.

An additional complication is the standard which was set by Hawken's earlier gameplay – gameplay which heavily favoured splash weaponry. Although splash weaponry within Hawken requires that shooters compensate for travel times, the most utilized secondary splash weapons are remote-detonation or auto-tracking – features that dramatically drop the skill ceiling. Additionally, Hawken's overwhelmingly powerful radar, when combined with remote detonation or mine-laying capabilities, dumbs down the game's aiming requirements dramatically. I would also argue that the type of gameplay it promoted (spamming splash from behind corners) could hardly be termed “skillful tactical positioning”. Finally, the projectile travel times have always been quite low, and the mechs have been largely ground-locked (or slooooowly floating through the air).

Given this context, it's unsurprising to see splash-heavy players upset by the aiming requirements introduced through the air compressor. Although the air dodges themselves are easily struck by strong players, there is certainly a learning curve involved. Players who believe that air dodging negates projectile-based weapons, however, are deluding themselves. Strong players – my team amongst them – hit high percentages of their projectile shots (Heat Cannon, Saare Launcher, Redox, EOC, etc.) against air dodging opponents. They also are able to hit direct TOWs quite easily. AC requires from players a higher skill level than has typically been present in Hawken, so it's bound to ruffle some feathers. No, you no longer possess the overwhelming, easy-aim advantage you once did; but no, you're certainly not neutered – provided you learn to aim and position yourself a bit better.

It's also worth noting that pings too far above 110-120 render this type of aiming difficult. Dermax, for example, relied heavily upon splash and approximated aiming to fare decently with his 200 Ameri-ping. I can understand why such players are dismayed by AC's presence, but I cannot have their inconvenience decrease the game's skill ceiling further. I would much rather see Hawken's server locations expanded so that they too might compete within their respective regions.

Edited by Nept, May 21 2014 - 01:35 PM.

[Sylhiri]

Superkamikazee, on May 21 2014 - 05:30 AM, said:

There needs to be some penalty for life in the skies, and that's spread.

Not all guns have spread though, that's just a penalty for sustain weapons and shotguns.

Edited by Sylhiri, May 21 2014 - 01:43 PM.

[Superkamikazee]

Sylhiri, on May 21 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

Superkamikazee, on May 21 2014 - 05:30 AM, said:

There needs to be some penalty for life in the skies, and that's spread.

Not all guns have spread though, that's just a penalty for sustain weapons and shotguns.

I only sustain . I hear ya though. I just feel there should be a cost or penalty for being in the air. Ground combat should be just as viable as air combat.

Currently the only downside to being in the air is fuel loss. Firing down at targets with splash damage is cheese, but that doesn't mean splash damage should be removed from Hawken either, I loves splash.

Edited by Superkamikazee, May 21 2014 - 01:54 PM.

[The_Silencer]

Splash is mostly ok, IMHO. H.E charges are cool, much more than ... darts_ ... just rambling now, my bad. .)

[DerMax]

Nept, may I have the names of those of your teammates who hit high percentages with the EOC against AC-wielders_

(I keep using the definite article "the" in front of all the internal, item, weapon and subclass names, but it seems I might be misusing it. If so, please let me know.)

[Nept]

You're using it properly.  Forums aren't a great place to learn proper grammar because most posters use various short-form shortcuts.

I'm sure Leon would be happy to demonstrate.  Our other infiltrator, IAreDave, is currently out of commission because his laptop broke.  Alternatively, you can hop on a West server and give me 30 minutes to learn the lead time.

[DerMax]

Nept, on May 21 2014 - 03:04 PM, said:

I'm sure Leon would be happy to demonstrate.  Our other infiltrator, IAreDave, is currently out of commission because his laptop broke.  Alternatively, you can hop on a West server and give me 30 minutes to learn the lead time.

Will do, but not today

[nepacaka]

Quote

An additional complication is the standard which was set by Hawken's earlier gameplay – gameplay which heavily favoured splash weaponry. Although splash weaponry within Hawken requires that shooters compensate for travel times, the most utilized secondary splash weapons are remote-detonation or auto-tracking – features that dramatically drop the skill ceiling

keyword - earlier
now, TOW spalsh radius is small (twice less than dodge distance), and rocketeer in duel...hm...not very powerful, with his HF and seeker.

Quote

I'm sure Leon would be happy to demonstrate.

want to see eoc/heat. if it possible, on heat-rockteer (eoc-rocketeer) or heat-gren.
because it's just dead weapon with current balance. it's working normal only in duel now. dps and C's speed make this weapon unplayable in siege/ma mode, if enemies use sustain weapon + AC

infiltrator with heat working not bad, we know it. no need to demonstrate this.

Edited by nepacaka, May 21 2014 - 03:45 PM.

[Leonhardt]

Nept, on May 21 2014 - 03:04 PM, said:

I'm sure Leon would be happy to demonstrate.  Our other infiltrator, IAreDave, is currently out of commission because his laptop broke.  Alternatively, you can hop on a West server and give me 30 minutes to learn the lead time.

Dave doesn't play EOC anyway. He doesn't like the weapon much (can't blame him I have always preferred HEAT myself). I haven't used it in a while so I'll have to brush up on it for an hour to get the lead time back down.

nepacaka, on May 21 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

Quote

An additional complication is the standard which was set by Hawken's earlier gameplay – gameplay which heavily favoured splash weaponry. Although splash weaponry within Hawken requires that shooters compensate for travel times, the most utilized secondary splash weapons are remote-detonation or auto-tracking – features that dramatically drop the skill ceiling

keyword - earlier
now, TOW spalsh radius is small (twice less than dodge distance), and rocketeer in duel...hm...not very powerful, with his HF and seeker.

Quote

I'm sure Leon would be happy to demonstrate.

want to see eoc/heat. if it possible, on heat-rockteer (eoc-rocketeer) or heat-gren.

The size of the mech you are using doesn't effect aiming the weapon. Also the TOW splash radius is larger than I would like and sufficiently large to do good damage to air targets consistently.

[nepacaka]

Quote

The size of the mech you are using doesn't effect aiming the weapon.

yes, the aiming is not affected. but the movement speed  and heat fire rate affects on the combat capability of mech in general. and gren, and especially rocketeer with heat, more bad in fight against flying bers with AC.
it's really big difference.

after patch, gren gain "bers" ability, now it's little better with heat, but this is enought. rockteer is still ugly mech. cheap HF (slowest firerate, smaller damage) make this mech very weak against sustain. any a-class which use "pushing" tactics + sustain weap. against you, and you die. nothing help you.
you can beat bers only if you don't miss uncharged shots, otherwise enemy kill you faster, because dps =/

i many time suggest increased Eoc and Heat slug velocity, or increase heat fire rate on 10%. because those weapons now really vulnerable against automatic weapons.

Quote

Also the TOW splash radius is larger than I would like and sufficiently large to do good damage to air targets consistently.

i mean, tow splash now smaller than earlier. when we play on beta with 4 sec c/d and giant boom!

---
also, leon. how many times you see heat-rockteer on battlefield_ i see it only if I play on heat-rock (and then, recently, I stopped to play it because it's hard-to-play, and the benefits are very small. + my Ping (q_q).

I just want see how anyone play on heat-rocketeer in match against 2100mmr players. and agianst 2100mmr bers with ac.

if someone shows me this video. I instantly admit that I'm noob and wrong, and heat don't need rework with current game conception. My rating is 2100, and i can easy beat noobs in siege with 20-2-20 on rock, but I can't play good on heat-rock against the same players like me. I want to see a high-level battle...

Edited by nepacaka, May 21 2014 - 11:28 PM.

[Nept]

Heat's extremely powerful in the right hands, bordering on overpowered.

[nepacaka]

Quote

Heat's extremely powerful in the right hands

ok. where those right hands_ show me.
show me rocketeer with heat in rights hands.
agains ppl with 2100+ mmr with air-compressor. i wanna see it.

Edited by nepacaka, May 22 2014 - 12:43 AM.

[Ecdysis]

It needs to be toned down or removed.

[karnak]

Having seen this video, it is really difficult for me to agree with Nept's pro air-compressor arguments and in general with any other Nept's argument. I'm not sure why. xD

[nepacaka]

Quote

Having seen this video, it is really difficult for me to agree with Nept's pro air-compressor arguments and in general with any other Nept's argument. I'm not sure why. xD

I'm not sure that this video is contain something that show us the problem EOC/HEAT agains AC
hitscan....
early i have 80% aiming from railgun in Q3. and what_

if you can't show me rock with heat all your arguments will be a failure without proof.
it is like a god. I've never seen it. and I do not believe in it.

Edited by nepacaka, May 23 2014 - 11:54 AM.