184 replies to this topic

[IroncladLion]

Yes, there are plenty of Predator threads. Yes, this is another one. But I have hope that the developers will look at this thread and consider the suggestions from it. I want opinions, what can make this mech better_ What can make it competitive without making is overpowered_ How can it better help the team_

As it is now, the Predator is a fun toy for experienced players to play around with and take a refreshing break from fast-paced twitch mechs. Because any competent player that sees a predator hunts it down and kills it, because it simply can't stand up against any mech. A decent technician could easily kill it...

The Pred is awesome, and YES I know how to use it and have done very well in it, but it's still very clunky and could use a few tweaks.

IDEAS:
(Not all to be implemented at once, just putting stuff out there. Criticism is welcome)

BASE STATS:
- NONE, it's base stats are fine! (In my opinion)

ABILITY:
- NONE, I personally think the ability is balanced well. Welcome to hear others opinions.

WEAPONS:
BREACHER:
- lame change: increase damage 10% (don't like this idea)
- The nail thing is weird (in my opinion), I think it'd be way more awesome to have it be a more energy type weapon. Like a true railgun infused with glowly bits. With effects on it such as the Redox on the Tech. It'd still have the dual shotgun / charged rail shot, just look different. Because honestly, the most high-tech mech with heat vision and stealth and this thing is armed with a NAIL GUN_ WHY__

- Make the Charged shot 'mark' the target for future damage, this would play into the idea of being a 'Predator / Hunter' and provide some utility for getting a higher score. General ideas for 'mark' and charged rail shot:
1) Reveal the enemy on the map for the next 5-10 seconds (balance accordingly) for all allies, making this weapon good for tracking down enemies.
2) Make future damage deal 5-10% more from all sources (similar to redox but does not stack)
3) Fuzz the enemies vision for .5 seconds each shot that connects (or lower for balance). This could also work for the uncharged shot.
4) Make each shot also burn a portion of the enemies fuel
5) (Personal favorite idea) Reduce hit enemies speed by 25% for 10 seconds (catch the scout)
And the mark could only be applied to one enemy at a time, for balance reasons of course.

EOC PREDATOR:
- This thing just needs some changing. The idea is cool, but something needs to change.
- For simplicity, just increase the fire rate. I mean honestly spending 10 seconds to lay one mine field that someone may never step on is annoying.
- Rather than make it a painfully slow full-auto mine layer... Make it a fast firing, semi-auto mine laying device, with a chargeable 'shotgun' mine shot. These shotgun mines would generate a LOT of heat and have a very long cool down period before firing any more mines (balance). It could also have a large spread to prevent cheap shots.
- Make the ability to detonate the mines in mid-air PLEASE. Especially if the shotgun mine is added, would make the weapon very capable.
- Increase the velocity

T32:
EDIT:
- With the most recent buff, this is actually a semi-legit weapon. The Predator loses it's medium range capability with the breacher, but up close it has good (enough) damage to really do some damage. I've managed to get several triple kills with well setup strikes. Again however the drawback still feels to be the EOC-Pred, but overall the T32 does feel 'okay' now.

EOC REPEATER:
- Also getting a slight buff with the 3/27/14 update. Will need to test this.

Edited by IroncladLion, March 31 2014 - 10:40 PM.

[EliteShooter]

The pred is getting a buff, wait and test it after the next patch.

[IroncladLion]

EliteShooter, on March 26 2014 - 10:41 PM, said:

The pred is getting a buff, wait and test it after the next patch.

Next patch as in the one tomorrow_

They aren't touching the EOC Pred or the Breacher from what I read...

Or are you talking about another patch_

EDIT:

Predator

• Dodging now causes the Predator's cloak to temporarily break

Is this the one you were talking about_

Edited by IroncladLion, March 26 2014 - 10:48 PM.

[Phantasmo]

EliteShooter, on March 26 2014 - 10:41 PM, said:

The pred is getting a buff, wait and test it after the next patch.

I didn't see any buff in the changelog.  Could you please enlighten us_

[Trych]

As far as I've heard, the Pred just got a little nerf to its cloak and that's it.

[Veritasnous]

I think the mech needs less of a buff than is generally thought.

The repeater and T32 buff may be sufficient to put this mech in the running, but the breacher does need love. It's simply too awkward. A slight reduction in reload time and making the weapon hitscan would go a long way towards making it less clunky.

The EOC Predator charged shotgun (spread of mines) idea is a good one. It would make the secondary less useless against airborne targets. Also, it would need to come with a reduced damage-per-puck, or it would be far too powerful. Along the same lines (which has been suggested) would be the ability to detonate pucks mid-air.

[Aindreas]

Here's my idea on Predator, as you've already known: https://community.pl...nter-or-hunted/
Too long to be reposted. Anyway, IMO if the weapons were not buffed then at least the ability/movement would.

[Crminimal]

I liked being able to crabwalk as Pred and am pretty sad they nerfed the cloak. But oh well I guess.
Techies are probably equally sad about the Hop'n'heal being similarly nerfed.
More akin to a playstyle change then actual nerf.

The buffs to T-32 seems sweet, the repeaters effective usage is still a mystery to me so I dunno about that.
Something feels lacking when it comes to the mech "identity", The weapon combinations are akward, Lack of utility aside from fishing for easy kills and zoning. It doesn't feel like I contribute to the team when I play it.
I think a lot lies with Breacher, it needs something more to make it stand out as a "Predator" weapon.

I like Lions idea of charged breacher shots tracking the enemy on radar for a short duration. Have the Nail crackle with electricity to alert team mates of their tracked ally so they can react accordingly.
Maybe a DoT on the uncharged breacher to make the pred better at Corner play.

I would also like to see the Cloak work more like Reconstructor does, entering combat breaks it, ie dealing or taking damage, allowing for missed shots and laying mines while stealthed.
Like with repairing nearby enemies can hear the sounds and come hunting for you.

Movement, Armor and Cloak visibility I think are fine as they are. As with hellfire lock on, walking around in the open is a sure way to get shot at anyways.

Edited by Crminimal, March 27 2014 - 01:45 AM.

[86]

whuuut_ dodging now disables the cloak temporarily!_! nooo.....

[IroncladLion]

Vert, for the sake of not redesigning the weapon itself (breacher), I agree about the firing rate. Either that or a slight damage increase would be great. But I think some kind some additional status effect / debuff would be a great addition to the gun. What do you think about the debuff suggestions_ I personally just think the speed debuff would be a great addition to hunting down enemies, within reason.

And the shotgun mines would be a lot less clunky indeed and if you could airburst them it would be at least some kind of defense against berserkers and other such evil things.

And Aindreas yes I've looked through your thread, but I think the movement and ability are fine. With the cloak technology and whatnot I can imagine the mech being on the heavier side, and I think the ability is good how it is. I think it's mostly the weapons that make the mech so terrible at killing anything, rather than its stats or ability.

[McBonY]

Slow debuff would be really nice. On primary or on mines. Direct damage/ROF buffs could be too good for Pred, but how about some damage over time debuff_ Maybe as a side effect of fully charged breacher_

As for cloak, well, I don't like how easy it gets disabled. I mean, getting damaged while invisible puts cloak on cooldown, and it's fine. I've failed my ambush, I pay the price. But when the cloak is active, but i'm already visible (boosting/shooting) it has that refreshable 2s delay. I think that in this state damage received should just refresh that 2s not disable the cloak. Would be great ;]

[Veritasnous]

IroncladLion, on March 27 2014 - 01:17 AM, said:

Vert, for the sake of not redesigning the weapon itself (breacher), I agree about the firing rate. Either that or a slight damage increase would be great. But I think some kind some additional status effect / debuff would be a great addition to the gun. What do you think about the debuff suggestions_ I personally just think the speed debuff would be a great addition to hunting down enemies, within reason.

I do like the general idea of a debuff, but a debuff plus a damage or reload buff would probably be too powerful. I think your slow idea is the best, but reduce the duration to 1-3 seconds (you want the slow to wear off just before it's possible to fire the breacher again to avoid blatant cheese). The slow should be across the board, affecting walking, boosting, dodging, and flying.

[Phantasmo]

How do you play with Predator today:
* You sneak behind enemy lines hoping to find a damaged mech you can finish off with ease.
* You stay with the team, hiding and running and giving cover fire / placing minefields from afar.

Problems I see:
* Yes, you can kill an already damaged mech. But you can not kill a brand new one simply because of the weapons. Breacher lacks RoF to fight a mech and mines, well, they are landmines. In a game where people can fly.

* This might work but, it means your team is playing with one man down and let's be honest, wouldn't you deal much more damage with an AR and a TOW_ Yes, yes you would. Wouldn't you support much more the team with a Tech_ Yes you would. Etc.

Weapons lack fighting capability and on the other hand they simply lack capability for cover fire.

It's the weapons guys.

The mech doesn't really need a speed buff. It's supposed to be cloaked. What it does need is better weapons. Weapons that can kill an enemy mech.
A debuff_ Seriously_ What do you expect from that_

Edited by Phantasmo, March 27 2014 - 03:01 AM.

[Lightangel112]

the breacher needs more damage or less reload time for sure. I calculated that for a pro predator player to match the dps of an assault for example, which is currently the best B class mech atm, the breacher uncharged dps is doing 72 but it should be doing double that to 145 damage a second, that means rate of fire definately needs a reduction to match this statistic. Of course that means if damage is buffed it would do near 290 dmg in a flak shot which is stupid. So best to find a reload speed / damage ratio that is sustainable balance wise. For me I find using charged breacher a better tool for doing damage and keep my distance from sustain mechs is optimal. Charged breacher imo should be doing around 150 damage + 55 puck = 205. 20 dps lower than assault.

Edited by Lightangel112, March 27 2014 - 03:32 AM.

[Phantasmo]

Bear in mind that with sustained fire weapons such as the AR you can afford to miss some shots.
If you miss one charged shot with the Breacher when fighting another guy you are dead. There is no way you will come back from a missed Breacher shot in a DPS fight.

Edited by Phantasmo, March 27 2014 - 03:39 AM.

[Crminimal]

Lightangel112, on March 27 2014 - 03:32 AM, said:

the breacher needs more damage or less reload time for sure. I calculated that for a pro predator player to match the dps of an assault for example, which is currently the best B class mech atm, the breacher uncharged dps is doing 72 but it should be doing double that to 145 damage a second, that means rate of fire definately needs a reduction to match this statistic. Of course that means if damage is buffed it would do near 290 dmg in a flak shot which is stupid. So best to find a reload speed / damage ratio that is sustainable balance wise. For me I find using charged breacher a better tool for doing damage and keep my distance from sustain mechs is optimal. Charged breacher imo should be doing around 150 damage + 55 puck = 205. 20 dps lower than assault.

Phantasmo, on March 27 2014 - 03:38 AM, said:

Bear in mind that with sustained fire weapons such as the AR you can afford to miss some shots.
If you miss one charged shot with the Breacher when fighting another guy you are dead. There is no way you will come back from a missed Breacher shot in a DPS fight.

It is not supposed to be a killing machine,  or even capable at 1v1 in a fair fight, that's what you have the vision for.
It should stick to the defensive, stalking "predator" role. Which weapons help define.

Phantasmo, on March 27 2014 - 03:00 AM, said:

A debuff_ Seriously_ What do you expect from that_

Changes should mainly be centered around It's Secondary and/or Breacher. Increased utility for the team that fits the existing playstyle rather then damage. A debuff is one way. Making mines harder to see is another common suggestion.
Making the max charge breacher shot hitscan. enable it to pierce light cover and/or cut through corners.

These are the kinds of suggestions I think Lion had in mind when he started this thread.

Edited by Crminimal, March 27 2014 - 03:59 AM.

[Silverfire]

I think the Predator would be balanced if it had either a slight projectile speed increase for the EOC-P or a slightly faster refire rate. Make the EOC-P more primary weapon-esque and the Breacher more secondary weapon-esque.

[IroncladLion]

McBonY, on March 27 2014 - 01:40 AM, said:

Slow debuff would be really nice. On primary or on mines. Direct damage/ROF buffs could be too good for Pred, but how about some damage over time debuff_ Maybe as a side effect of fully charged breacher_

As for cloak, well, I don't like how easy it gets disabled. I mean, getting damaged while invisible puts cloak on cooldown, and it's fine. I've failed my ambush, I pay the price. But when the cloak is active, but i'm already visible (boosting/shooting) it has that refreshable 2s delay. I think that in this state damage received should just refresh that 2s not disable the cloak. Would be great ;]

A damage over time effect could also work. I like that idea. Of course this wouldn't really fit into the whole 'kinetic nail gun' thing, so I think a more energy type breacher would work. As for the cloak this I do agree mostly. If you get shot than it shouldn't disable cloak for 15 seconds or whatever that painful number is. It forces the Predator to run all the way back home and make it be even more useless till it can get its cloak back. Good suggestions.

Veritasnous, on March 27 2014 - 01:47 AM, said:

I do like the general idea of a debuff, but a debuff plus a damage or reload buff would probably be too powerful. I think your slow idea is the best, but reduce the duration to 1-3 seconds (you want the slow to wear off just before it's possible to fire the breacher again to avoid blatant cheese). The slow should be across the board, affecting walking, boosting, dodging, and flying.

I'm not saying they should implement everything I posted, that would be really over powered. Everything within reason . And absolutely across the board for boosting, flying, etc. It'd make tracking down and killing really fast mechs much easier. And good point, nobody likes cheese heh.

Phantasmo, on March 27 2014 - 03:00 AM, said:

A debuff_ Seriously_ What do you expect from that_

I expect it to help a lot. And I'm not saying just a debuff, a slight damage increase/ROF boost would be probably be needed. The debuff would help the Predator to be more team-oriented rather than a complete lone wolf type. It could also provide more points to the Predator so it wouldn't end up at the bottom of the score board every. single. game.

EDIT: I kept spelling cloak as clock. Looked confusing.

Edited by IroncladLion, March 27 2014 - 10:07 AM.

[Veritasnous]

Phantasmo, on March 27 2014 - 03:00 AM, said:

A debuff_ Seriously_ What do you expect from that_

The predator's movement speed is definitely fine as is. I think you're right about improving the weapons, but that you haven't appreciated what the debuff would accomplish.

A slowing debuff would accomplish two things.

1) It would indirectly buff the predator's weapons (both breacher and EOC predator). A class mechs can very hard to hit with the non-hitscan, no-splash-damage Breacher, and essentially impossible with the EOC predator (unless the other guy walks into them). A(n) (across the board) slow debuff would make all mechs easier to hit with both the breacher and the EOC predator.

2) As Iron said, it makes the mech more team-oriented. A slowed mech is also a sitting duck for your teammates, and you could strategically disable retreating mechs.

So I think the debuff is an idea that will work for your (our) purposes. However, I would also support bypassing the debuff idea and going with direct improvements to both the breacher and EOC predator. Reload + hitscan on breacher, and ability to detonate pucks midair on EOC predator. I think that would probably do the trick.

[LazerusKI]

The mech itself is perfectly fine in my opinion, the cloak works well even if some say its stupid and too visible.
Its not. Its very common that the enemy wont see you in the heat of the battle.

i agree...its just his weapons.
the breacher is fine for a "standard weapon", but the rest is just meh.
T32 is still crappy, he is not a close range mech, he is dead agaisnt every other mech in 1v1
and the EOC as a primary is just stupid...
i would not be mad if they replace the T32 or the EOC with a Heat or something else that can deal damage.

The Crabwalk nerf is jsut another stupid thing, and the speed-update to most other mechs was also an indirect nerf for the Predator who allready has very slow weapons (all semi-auto/charged), not to mention that the trap-laying process takes a while.
Every single "increase the speed" patch hurts a mech like the Predator.

"Hunting" allready hurt targets is just boring and wont help if every other mech can handle a fight perfectly fine.
Why should the Predator "killsteal" if any other frame can do that better against even slightly weakened targets_

In Coop he IS very funny to use, and he is helpful lthere, because he can revive while being cloaked. But in any other mode...he is just weak, even if you are a good player who knows how to play him (im not)

Edited by LazerusKI, March 27 2014 - 03:10 PM.