67 replies to this topic

[jrkong]

ShadowWarg, on May 20 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and ask: if the problem with the incinerator is that its damage + heat manipulation combo is the problem why not nerf the damage to but it more into the role of a support mech like intended rather than just straight up removing or nerfing its core concept and turning it into another "pew pew" class like so many of the ones we have already_

Well if you're going to nerf the damage you'll need to buff the heat manipulation by a lot. Right now the heat manipulation is modest at best so if you want to nerf the damage the Incinerator will need a lot more utility to have a place on the battlefield.

[ShadowWarg]

jrkong, on May 20 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

ShadowWarg, on May 20 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and ask: if the problem with the incinerator is that its damage + heat manipulation combo is the problem why not nerf the damage to but it more into the role of a support mech like intended rather than just straight up removing or nerfing its core concept and turning it into another "pew pew" class like so many of the ones we have already_

Well if you're going to nerf the damage you'll need to buff the heat manipulation by a lot. Right now the heat manipulation is modest at best so if you want to nerf the damage the Incinerator will need a lot more utility to have a place on the battlefield.

Why_ I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense to me. If heat manipulation + the incinerator's damage output is to strong, so then you nerf the damage output, what would be the point in buffing the heat manipulation if your trying to lower the mech's over all effectiveness_

Really bad example, but if I had to think of what you said in the most basic of terms (like with math)
current Incinerator: 2 + 2 = 4
nerf dmg buff heat: 1.5 + 2.5 = 4

nothing changes.

Edited by ShadowWarg, May 20 2014 - 06:08 PM.

[jrkong]

ShadowWarg, on May 20 2014 - 06:04 PM, said:

jrkong, on May 20 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

ShadowWarg, on May 20 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and ask: if the problem with the incinerator is that its damage + heat manipulation combo is the problem why not nerf the damage to but it more into the role of a support mech like intended rather than just straight up removing or nerfing its core concept and turning it into another "pew pew" class like so many of the ones we have already_

Well if you're going to nerf the damage you'll need to buff the heat manipulation by a lot. Right now the heat manipulation is modest at best so if you want to nerf the damage the Incinerator will need a lot more utility to have a place on the battlefield.

Why_ I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense to me. If heat manipulation + the incinerator's damage output is to strong, so then you nerf the damage output, what would be the point in buffing the heat manipulation if your trying to lower the mech's over all effectiveness_

Really bad example, but if I had to think of what you said in the most basic of terms (like with math)
current Incinerator: 2 + 2 = 4
nerf dmg buff heat: 1.5 + 2.5 = 4

nothing changes.

I'm saying that if they're going to nerf the damage to put the Incinerator in a support role they should go all the way and kill 50% of the damage and give it more heat manipulation abilities or removing the heat manipulation abilities and keeping the damage. I think if they were going to change the Incinerator they should go all in and make it a heat based support mech or an offensive one that spits out damage.

Edited by jrkong, May 20 2014 - 08:08 PM.

[Sylhiri]

To be honest, Incinerator acts a lot more like Suppression then it does Support. Since it was released I figured it was the devs "answer" to deathballs.

[Van_Tuz]

Ahem... I hate being obtrusive, but did anyone read my suggestion_
You don't have to directly nerf damage or anything else. Just don't let incenerator to use all of his benefits at once. Make pilot choose damage OR debuff OR support.
Ok, I'll repeat myself.

Turn off heat absorbtion aura when primary weapon fired. Turn it on again after 1 second.
SAARE:
Low mode: Remove damage, add heat transfer.
High mode: Remove heat transfer.

That way instead of 2+2+2=6 we'll have only one "2" at a time without actually nerfing anything.

[jrkong]

Van_Tuz, on May 20 2014 - 09:03 PM, said:

Ahem... I hate being obtrusive, but did anyone read my suggestion_
You don't have to directly nerf damage or anything else. Just don't let incenerator to use all of his benefits at once. Make pilot choose damage OR debuff OR support.
Ok, I'll repeat myself.

Turn off heat absorbtion aura when primary weapon fired. Turn it on again after 1 second.
SAARE:
Low mode: Remove damage, add heat transfer.
High mode: Remove heat transfer.

That way instead of 2+2+2=6 we'll have only one "2" at a time without actually nerfing anything.

I thought I already said me likey it's just it doesn't seem like others have though.

[v009]

I agree the Incinerator is very strong at the moment.


My suggestion to balance it:

1. Remove the heat given to enemy mech by the secondary mode Sarre ( didn't even know it did that ) This will give you the incentive for players to use M4m4 primary.

2. The Armor is too much for a support mech with such speed stat. It currently has 50 less hp than the Brawler with Vanguard speed. Decrease it to 700-715.

Implementing these 2 suggestion would be better than changing lots of things at once.

Also the heat gen on M4m4 primary should be slightly increased.


Ability change should be implemented only if the above suggestion don't balance the Incinerator.

For the ability they could change it to heat given to enemy mechs who are in it's  AoE instead of the current ability. This way the enemy has a chance to run instead of dying instantly (if they have low hp).

[Dew]

v009, on May 22 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

I agree the Incinerator is very strong at the moment.


My suggestion to balance it:

1. Remove the heat given to enemy mech by the secondary mode Sarre ( didn't even know it did that ) This will give you the incentive for players to use M4m4 primary.

2. The Armor is too much for a support mech with such speed stat. It currently has 50 less hp than the Brawler with Vanguard speed. Decrease it to 700-715.

Implementing these 2 suggestion would be better than changing lots of things at once.

Also the heat gen on M4m4 primary should be slightly increased.


Ability change should be implemented only if the above suggestion don't balance the Incinerator.

For the ability they could change it to heat given to enemy mechs who are in it's  AoE instead of the current ability. This way the enemy has a chance to run instead of dying instantly (if they have low hp).

"Press F to EMP"

[ThirdEyE]

v009, on May 22 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

I agree the Incinerator is very strong at the moment.


My suggestion to balance it:

1. Remove the heat given to enemy mech by the secondary mode Sarre ( didn't even know it did that ) This will give you the incentive for players to use M4m4 primary.

2. The Armor is too much for a support mech with such speed stat. It currently has 50 less hp than the Brawler with Vanguard speed. Decrease it to 700-715.

Implementing these 2 suggestion would be better than changing lots of things at once.

Also the heat gen on M4m4 primary should be slightly increased.


Ability change should be implemented only if the above suggestion don't balance the Incinerator.

For the ability they could change it to heat given to enemy mechs who are in it's  AoE instead of the current ability. This way the enemy has a chance to run instead of dying instantly (if they have low hp).

The ability also gives heat to the enemy, I forgot to mention that =/

Edit: Just tested, the ability heat generation seems independent of your current heat.

[nepacaka]

Quote

SAARE needs aoe nerf. 40 min damage in 28m diameter is too much. For reference tow/gl does 20 in same diameter. Also the rate of fire is higher than tow/gl making its dps more than twice the tow/gl.

agree with this.
if my memory serves good for me, tow splash diameter = 24 or 25 metres

Edited by nepacaka, May 22 2014 - 10:18 AM.

[nepacaka]

and about inci.

this topic:
https://community.pl...st/page__st__20

this post:

Quote

Incinerator:
Make it's slower than Vanguard. And increase a fuel tank.
change overheat mechanic to normal. (shoot - increase heat, don't shoot - decrease heat)

Ability: Overheat Transfer
working time - 10 seconds
reload time - 40 seconds
- transfer all his heat to enemies within 30 yards for 10 seconds. transfer 10% of heat each 1 seconds (maximum 100%)
if team mates stay near with incinerator, incinerator starts to take away 5% of the overheat from teammates and redirects heat to each opponent in 30 m.
i mean, take away inci and teammates heat and sends it to the enemies.

for example. if inci have 50 heat, and near stand 2 enemy, each enemy gain 25 heat for 3 seconds. if near stand one teammates with 99 heat, each enemies gain 25 (inci 10%) + 50 (mates 5%) energy for 10 seconds. also teammates will be cooled on 50% of his total heat.

Incinerator Weapons
1) bear baby - added little delay before start shooting. Good accuracy, slow fire rate, good weapon for range combat. but low damage
2) bear papa - decrease delay before start shooting. High spread, fastest fire rate, good dps in cqc. useless for range combat.
3) bear mama - decrease delay before start shooting.

4) SAARE launcher - added heat, instead decreasing. like other secondary weapons.

^ THIS ^
turn incinerator into Normal, Playable mech!
- without stupid ability which just deal 150 damage
- without stupid infinity shooting everywhere
- without several inci in one team and spamming in entrace from SAARE
- without problem with incinerator + tech combo
- without ANY stupid. any!

total rework! nerf or buff don't help inci until he use spam-saare and infinity overheat

Edited by nepacaka, May 22 2014 - 11:11 AM.

[v009]

Dew, on May 22 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

"Press F to EMP"

Thank you for your constructive feedback.

[jrkong]

nepacaka, on May 22 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

Quote

SAARE needs aoe nerf. 40 min damage in 28m diameter is too much. For reference tow/gl does 20 in same diameter. Also the rate of fire is higher than tow/gl making its dps more than twice the tow/gl.

agree with this.
if my memory serves good for me, tow splash diameter = 24 or 25 metres

In a world full of Air Compressors life without manual detonation's a fuzzy bunny.

[nepacaka]

Quote

In a world full of Air Compressors life without manual detonation's a fuzzy bunny.

in a world full of Air Compressor, use papa, cuz SAARE can shoot faster than enemy can use dodge =/

raider also have a big splash on KLA, but! KLA have 2.75 second cooldown, and SAARE shoot every 0.75 seconds.
it faster more than two times!

yes_

Quote

world full of Air Compressors

eoc and heat suffer too.
why only those two weapons should suffer_ add more suffering to incinerator too!
every second people say me "eoc is good and balanced...blablabla", and never play with eoc, cuz "air-dodge". very funny listen this.

edit: sorry, wrong numbers. fixed. just wanna sleep)


p.s. heat-cannon should be hit-scan! saare splash need be totally removed. i want that it shot with putting-stone (kernels)!

Edited by nepacaka, May 22 2014 - 03:00 PM.

[jrkong]

nepacaka, on May 22 2014 - 02:26 PM, said:

Quote

In a world full of Air Compressors life without manual detonation's a fuzzy bunny.

in a world full of Air Compressor, use papa, cuz SAARE can shoot faster than enemy can use dodge =/

raider also have a big splash on KLA, but! KLA have 2.75 second cooldown, and SAARE shoot every 0.75 seconds.
it faster more than two times!

yes_

Quote

world full of Air Compressors

eoc and heat suffer too.
why only those two weapons should suffer_ add more suffering to incinerator too!
every second people say me "eoc is good and balanced...blablabla", and never play with eoc, cuz "air-dodge". very funny listen this.

edit: sorry, wrong numbers. fixed. just wanna sleep)


p.s. heat-cannon should be hit-scan! saare splash need be totally removed. i want that it shot with putting-stone (kernels)!

EOC only have to calculate travel time plus they got the mine function. Mines troll the hell outta fuzzy bunnies the second they land when used right.

Heat has virtually no travel time after charged especially at close range and uncharged Heat has 0 drop.

SAARE is both slow moving and you need to accommodate for both travel time and drop.

The key difference between SAARE and the KLA and all the weapons you mentioned above is the difference between burst damage and sustained damage. Would you rather choose a continuous weapon that will deal steady but damage but require more exposure or do it all in one quick salvo and dash for cover as you prep the next one. The PPA and M4MA are all sustained weapons you're pretty much required to continuously fire them (PPA more then M4MA with the long spin up time but both require you to shoot at their max speed to get their best output). What you're saying right now is like saying the Slug Rifle and the Hawkens RPR isn't balanced since the RPR has higher DPS then the Slug. They follow different philosophies so the comparison isn't fair. That said SAARE is pretty much the first sustained damaged oriented secondary we've got right now.

I think it would be interesting if they reworked the SAARE and changed it into a burstfire fireball AR/Minigun that just coughs up a burst of small fireballs every time it's clicked. These fireballs won't drop, fast-ish flight speed, spread, no AoE and moderate sustained damage(somewhere between 90-120 dps). Think of it as an EOC shooting fireballs at a faster rate.

Edited by jrkong, May 22 2014 - 06:54 PM.

[Van_Tuz]

nepacaka, on May 22 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

Quote

Incinerator:
Incinerator Weapons
4) SAARE launcher - added heat, instead decreasing. like other secondary weapons.

^ THIS ^
turn incinerator into Normal, Playable mech!

total rework! nerf or buff don't help inci until he use spam-saare and infinity overheat

I think it's a bad way to solve the problem. Without unique heat mechanics Invenerator would be just like other mechs. And decreasing diversity in the game won't make it more fun.

jrkong, on May 22 2014 - 06:27 PM, said:

I think it would be interesting if they reworked the SAARE and changed it into a burstfire fireball AR/Minigun that just coughs up a burst of small fireballs every time it's clicked. These fireballs won't drop, fast-ish flight speed, spread, no AoE and moderate sustained damage(somewhere between 90-120 dps). Think of it as an EOC shooting fireballs at a faster rate.

Bad idea. This may slightly improve performance against light mechs but make it even bigger pain for heavies.

Edited by Van_Tuz, May 23 2014 - 04:12 AM.

[Meraple]

You really know what you're talking about in the competitive scene with your 180 hours do you_
People with ~1800 MMR really know what they're doing, right_
Right_

/sarcasm


Why are you even argueing with somebody like Dew if you're new..
I honestly don't get it.

[v009]

@ jrkong: I'm sure the EOC-P is the first secondary sustained weapon.

[nepacaka]

Quote

EOC only have to calculate travel time plus they got the mine function. Mines troll the hell outta fuzzy bunnies the second they land when used right.

you don't see a BIG RED SLUGS on ground while you fight against EOC-enemy_ it's never been problem for me.

Quote

I think it's a bad way to solve the problem. Without unique heat mechanics Invenerator would be just like other mechs.

you absolutely right here. this way turn incinerator into normal mech (like other)

if you see "fun" in broken mech and infinity shots. i'm congrats you.
maybe you like broken baby weapon_ which actually useless against high-skill guys.
and how about fact, that inci playable only with one weapon_
why inci need 3 weapons_ better turn it into G2 with only one weapon - ppa. problem solved.

Quote

And decreasing diversity in the game won't make it more fun.

well, when all mech will be similar with equal stats, without "fun", abd without "diversity"...and it was better, and much more interesting in terms of gameplay.

want fun - go to the circus. they have trained tigers. They're more interesting than tigers in their natural habitat.

Edited by nepacaka, May 23 2014 - 01:43 PM.

[Van_Tuz]

nepacaka, on May 23 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

Quote

I think it's a bad way to solve the problem. Without unique heat mechanics Invenerator would be just like other mechs.

you absolutely right here. this way turn incinerator into normal mech (like other)

if you see "fun" in broken mech and infinity shots. i'm congrats you.

I see "fun" in playing mechs that is radically different in one of core aspects. I'd like these differences preserved instead of nuking it just because it's OP (or UP in case of turret mode)