121 replies to this topic

[Aelieth]

What constant metric is being used to judge if one weapon is balanced against other weapons_

For a ranged weapon that locks, it murders up in close quarters. Just got through being wrecked by it, me vs it with a Point-D Vulcan on my Bruiser, which did get nerfed significantly, thanks.

The heat cannon and EOC repeater (still there) were much better choices on the rocketeer, IMO. They took skill to use and with its Hellfire missiles, it's fun to play as an artillery mech. The seeker is just.... back to - what were you guys thinking_

A locking explosive weapon should be for medium range, with a limited rate of fire_ Up close it should lose its ability to home in on targets, after they're at a certain distance then it can go after them. Even the hellfire missiles have this issue, locking in close quarters is pointless since the rockets don't have time to come back in on one point, have to make use of splash damage.

I'm not quite sure what the idea behind the Seekers is, which makes it difficult to give suggestions.

Edited by Aelieth, November 20 2012 - 11:37 PM.

[Chouzin]

Let them keep it. I've been destroying rocketeers today.

[RedVan]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

Saunders, on November 20 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Do you have other suggestions to make it more fun but less OP_

Make it act like an actual TOW (not a Hawken TOW). Meaning you have to keep your crosshairs on the target if you want the missiles to hit.
Also either lower the damage, RoF, or increase the heat gen a bit. Right now it's too much at once.

Yesindeed please!

[Sicarius_X]

I feel skill cap is next to 0, rewards players to much for not trying hard enough. I don't mind dummy rockets, or even slightly guided (hold your aimer on their mech the whole time at least. but nothing that auto follows. (the hellfire is different due to you actually have to lock on)

[Dystar]

Woah dev post. While they are looking at this, please fix Sharpshooters back to the way they were in CB2. They were NOT OP in any sense and would constantly get beat by other classes. I stopped playing SS in this build because it is so bad, and switched to rocketeer to face roll. I agree (afte going 20/1 k/d ratio all night) that rocketeer is OP, but if you gonna nerf it at least take the time to make the SS not be so bad now. Thanks!

[Titzilla]

Honestly, I think what would work best would be a decrease in firing rate. At the moment, the thing fires so fast for such large damage, that I'd argue that it has the fastest DPS out of any weapon, assuming everything hits of course. Like others have said, heat buildup must increase, damage must decrease, or firing rate must decrease. While the other two options may work, a drop in firing rate would work best. It becomes incredibly difficult to put up a fight when your mech's view is literally explosion after explosion. Even if the damage was lessened, it wouldn't help all that much in the end if you can't see. This doesn't apply as much for high-mid to long range, but the rate of fire still results in rocketeers being able to easily snag kills.

[Dullahan]

I saw a LOT of rocketeers today.  I agree the combination of good rate of fire, good damage, relatively low heat generation, and insta lock on could use a little tweaking.

To be fair though, I found countering the seekers to be relatively easy.  They can't curve very tightly or be manually detonated, so being a little extra mindful of where cover is has kept me pretty safe.

[Beemann]

Seeker+Hellfire is way too spammy and takes zero skill to use. I fought RedVan today and I didn't even dodge much. I just ran around in circles spamming rockets until enough of them hit him (sometimes when he was even offscreen) that he died
They give off way too little heat and the firerate is incredible, not to mention I never felt like aiming was even remotely required. I just kept holding down both mouse buttons and stuff died

[defekt]

Whilst I agree that every game needs its n00btubes to some degree, the Seeker seems to be little short of being 'press X to win'; if they can see you they never miss and they're so hard to see coming.  Bluntly, the weapon needs to have reduced stats across the board and have a skill element introduced.

Suggestions:-
- Make them only slightly-guided and spiral around like the TOW used to back in the [redacted]; or,
- Require constant babysitting whilst the missiles are in the air by means of making them wire-guided instead of F&F, i.e., true TOW technology.

As they are now they put Hellfires to shame and that single point alone should be enough to start the alarm bells ringing.

[R3lax]

less health, 850 is a bugger to get down when your face is getting missiled in

[Lithium03]

Aelieth, on November 20 2012 - 11:30 PM, said:

What constant metric is being used to judge if one weapon is balanced against other weapons_

By the looks, # of complaints on forums.

[D20Face]

Lithium03, on November 21 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

Aelieth, on November 20 2012 - 11:30 PM, said:

What constant metric is being used to judge if one weapon is balanced against other weapons_

By the looks, # of complaints on forums.

Pretty much this.

I'm running flawed balance numbers as we speak, but it'll take me a few days thanks to my work schedule to finish. When I mean balance numbers, I mean every possible scenario at varying skill levels and engagement times(1v1 and without items right now, I'll not do more till I get real values).

Hopefully a bigarse essay that takes into account player skill will weigh more than normal mass comments. Actually, hopefully they coincide so that there can be less room for error in the subsequent patch.

[shosuro]

Seriously_ I am a noob, but just today I lost several times a face to face meeting with basic normal Assault playing Rocketeer. I empties both weapons like there was no tomorrow and still Assault manages to overcome me from time to time. I can shoot the damn seeker as much as I want and he will just dance around and pummel me to oblivion. Maybe it is op if you're in a light mech, but come on, what isn't in that situation...

[AsianJoyKiller]

shosuro, on November 21 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

Seriously_ I am a noob...

Not to be mean, but that's your problem.
You're a noob (though you're actually probably a "newbie", just inexpeirenced).
Once you get more than a few hours of experience, some map knowledge and a decent idea of how to play, it's easy to do well with the Seeker.

[gunhe4d]

Saunders, on November 20 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

I don't have a problem with having noob weapons by the way.  Especially if skilled players know how to counter it.  Ultimately, we want plenty of weapons that can accommodate a wide variety of player skill & game choice.  Player skill always wins.

Quoted for truth.  I came here to say basically this.  I think they're fine because as a target of hellfire missiles, I get a lock on warning and a quick dodge to cover is an easy counter to them unless I have gotten myself out of position.  It seems like even in open areas much of the damage can be mitigated by a last second dodge.  Plus as a rocketeer they are just fun as hell to shoot.

Edited by gunhe4d, November 21 2012 - 08:21 AM.

[shosuro]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 21 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

shosuro, on November 21 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

Seriously_ I am a noob...

Not to be mean, but that's your problem.
You're a noob (though you're actually probably a "newbie", just inexpeirenced).
Once you get more than a few hours of experience, some map knowledge and a decent idea of how to play, it's easy to do well with the Seeker.

It's not my problem. I am playing the game, having fun.
Not to be mean, but it seems it's your problem. I played several matches today where rocketeers weren't even in the top 3. The last one where light mech just annihilated everyone with flak the rocketeers had most deaths.

What I'm trying to say is to each his own. After 20-30 matches I haven't seen anything that would be constantly on the top, so maybe it is not so op_ If anything nerf EMP, as it just pwns and everyone and their mothers are running it...

[FluxX]

Saunders, on November 20 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

That's why we do these open betas - to get TONS of data and make good decisions with it

Yeah, it probably does a bit too much damage.  It's also super hard to see the missiles coming at you, so you aren't able to make a good decision about when to flee (if at all).  It's a combination of things.  We're playing with slightly different values in our internal builds, so expect tweaks; maybe even as early as tomorrow.

I don't have a problem with having noob weapons by the way.  Especially if skilled players know how to counter it.  Ultimately, we want plenty of weapons that can accommodate a wide variety of player skill & game choice.  Player skill always wins.

On the flip side the seeker also generates quite a bit of heat.  I'm able to destroy most rocketeers at close range by simply dodging, even as other Heavy Mechs.

Do you have other suggestions to make it more fun but less OP_

Thanks. If you make it fun and engaging to counter, even pros won't worry about a "noob cannon"
Could it be possible to have the missiles shoot downable_ That's at the least 1 specific counter that would mean experienced players could hope to counter newer players. While the newer players still get a go at learning the basics...

... oh, and those who like to just have a laugh can spam missiles from above!

PS, was it me in the light mech_ Nah, I've seen others playing them too.

Edited by FluxX, November 21 2012 - 09:42 AM.

[Astrolis]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

Nitris, on November 20 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

@NotAnExit: I don't think it does. I might be wrong though, but seeing as all the rocketeers I've battled against spam both guns at the same time it is kinda hard to tell.

Seeker does not give a heads up.

Saunders, on November 20 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Do you have other suggestions to make it more fun but less OP_

Make it act like an actual TOW (not a Hawken TOW). Meaning you have to keep your crosshairs on the target if you want the missiles to hit.

This This This This This This This and This.

Seriously...

Turn the Seeker into a line of sight missile. As is its uber broken to just get someone to low HP, fire a Seeker than leave the area.

Edited by Astrolis, November 21 2012 - 10:38 AM.

[DarkPulse]

I think the main issues are really that it's hard to see the missile coming, and that someone firing them discourages them from getting into the Rocketeer's weak zone of close combat.

Probably decrease the amount fired per second, but increase how much pop they do, and make them more obvious. The locks are easy to break if you're aware of your surroundings as they're fairly loose, so that's not an issue.

[CptKrnch]

Talking to people in-game they max the damage and fire rate on their Seekers and you dont need to use ANY skill at all, just point and hold the button. You should make it so you can't use both Primary and Secondary weapons at once, and reduce the fire rate of the Seeker, and/or it's damage. Or give that mech some other reasonable defect to balance it out.