202 replies to this topic

[RedVan]

Not happening. We made sure yesterday when talking with CpnJosh that this will never happen.

 

If the dev team listens to a couple people over the masses... this game is doomed (again)

[Leonhardt]

90% of this game is just positioning anyway

 

So much truth I can't even look it directly in the face for fear of turning to dust. I'M MELTING!

 

Edited by Leonhardt, 23 March 2015 - 12:14 PM.

[Xacius]

Turned out?

Air related content oveall ruined the game for lots of players (air speed, air compressor, fuel consumption). We all know the lore, and mechs are made out of super light material, but this removed a lot of game mechanics and brought the �press space to win� technique.

Before this air introductions, you had the mech feeling now it feels more like an exoskeleton. You would press space to get some high advantage or to get on some building but you had the high risk of getting hit. Now, with the air compressor you have no risks, just benefits wich makes this internal unbalanced.

Why to stay on the ground when you just press space and get all the advantage ??

 

 

Now, with the air compressor you have no risks, just benefits wich makes this internal unbalanced.

It's not a matter of risk vs. reward.  No internal has an inherent disadvantage or risk/reward system, so analyzing the air compressor with that in mind is kind of a null argument.   Let's examine your logic with another internal: Shock resistors.  If you have that internal equipped, you can land from any height without taking damage.  If you want to reduce damage on landing without that internal, you have to buffer your fall with spacebar.  zomg, dat internal is overpowered, nerf it.  

 

No, that's simply how all internals work. 

 

Why to stay on the ground when you just press space and get all the advantage ??

Holding spacebar = burning fuel.  It's also the slowest form of travel next to running.  Every mech boosts faster than it moves in the air, even the Berserker.  In terms of the speed/fuel usage payout, you're better off boosting if you gotta go fast. 

Edited by Xacius, 23 March 2015 - 03:55 PM.

[deidarall]

Flak, mini flak, reflak, KLA (flak mode): Perfect vs AC

SMC, AR, vulcan: Perfect vs AC

GL and TOW: Perfect vs AC

Heat:  Takes a little skill, but certainly excellent vs AC once you take a little time to learn how

RPR, slug, sabot, KE:  Perfect vs AC

HF and seeker...  do I really need to mention that these are perfect for AC

EOC:  Takes a little skill, but certainly very usable vs AC.  I use it on my raider and have no problems hitting AC mechs

KLA projectile:  Probably the hardest thing to hit an AC mech with as it is slow ROF and no remote det.  But, certainly doable.

Rev-GL:  High ROF projectile... if you cannot figure out how to lead with a high ROF weapon, you've got bigger problems than an AC mech.

 

 

What weapons aren't balanced to deal with air dodge again?  Sounds like because you suck with a rev-gl vs air dodge, you're trying to make it sound like ALL OTHER WEAPONS MUST BE THE SAME!!!!!  Simply isn't true.

 

Really let me just say it is a mixture of the feeling of fighting these air dodge based duels, it does not feel as good in my view as the early hawken days.

 

Also leading vs air dodge mechs is not so simple when one can realize they can constantly adjust mid flight, with a jerky adjustment in terms of air dodge. It quite simply is not as natural to fight against nor as simple as fighting a ground fighting mech with weps such as HEAT, REV, EOC, you admit that, and while I would perhaps agree with you if these weapons dominated the game like early Hawken, they simply do not these days cause of the move away from constant ground work, and therefore your balancing suggestion is not exactly very balancing in regards to these weapons, cause stuff like SMC and such constant damage weps are not really having to deal with the jerky ground work like they had to before as they have a air based toll to press the fore, and therefore remove one of the key selling points from all the non hit scan burst weps, to work the ground for splash damage as well as direct hits.

 

This air dynamic system is therefore going to favor hit-scan weapons, not directly because they are more simple to use, even when that is part of it, but because it gives many mechs a way to directly push AND counter the Revs, EOCs, and HEATs, main selling points to hit the ground for indirect damage, which therefore makes the hit scans more dependable. Plus it allows for players to push and deal damage in a effective manner anyway before bring up the fact it does indeed counter certain weapons. Just because you CAN do something does not mean it is worth while or that some benefits of air dodge are indeed effecting certain weps over others. 

 

 

 

And don't presume to know what I wish, and don't presume to call me out on how good I am with my mechs, I know I am fairly skilled, not the best, but I know what I am talking about, I do not feel a need to lesser others or call people out on what they may or might not suck with to feel that way. You seem to be wishing to make the game more uniform than I by giving mechs air dodge. So please, I suggest you rethink calling me out for trying to make the game more uniform, while asking for the game to be more uniform. 

[RedVan]

Really let me just say it is a mixture of the feeling of fighting these air dodge based duels, it does not feel as good in my view as the early hawken days.

 

Also leading vs air dodge mechs is not so simple when one can realize they can constantly adjust mid flight, with a jerky adjustment in terms of air dodge. It quite simply is not as natural to fight against nor as simple as fighting a ground fighting mech with weps such as HEAT, REV, EOC, you admit that, and while I would perhaps agree with you if these weapons dominated the game like early Hawken, they simply do not these days cause of the move away from constant ground work, and therefore your balancing suggestion is not exactly very balancing in regards to these weapons, cause stuff like SMC and such constant damage weps are not really having to deal with the jerky ground work like they had to before as they have a air based toll to press the fore, and therefore remove one of the key selling points from all the non hit scan burst weps, to work the ground for splash damage as well as direct hits.

 

This air dynamic system is therefore going to favor hit-scan weapons, not directly because they are more simple to use, even when that is part of it, but because it gives many mechs a way to directly push AND counter the Revs, EOCs, and HEATs, main selling points to hit the ground for indirect damage, which therefore makes the hit scans more dependable. Plus it allows for players to push and deal damage in a effective manner anyway before bring up the fact it does indeed counter certain weapons. Just because you CAN do something does not mean it is worth while or that some benefits of air dodge are indeed effecting certain weps over others. 

 

 

 

And don't presume to know what I wish, and don't presume to call me out on how good I am with my mechs, I know I am fairly skilled, not the best, but I know what I am talking about, I do not feel a need to lesser others or call people out on what they may or might not suck with to feel that way. You seem to be wishing to make the game more uniform than I by giving mechs air dodge. So please, I suggest you rethink calling me out for trying to make the game more uniform, while asking for the game to be more uniform. 

 

Leading is only one aspect of skill in FPS games.  Twitch is another aspect.  TBH, even with air dodge, the twitch aspect is still relatively small.  The inclusion of air dodge simply adds another aspect of skill.

 

Remember the old days before air dodge, burst was king?  Now you're saying heat, rev, eoc... bursty weapons... have more trouble.  Looks to me like air dodge helped make sustained weapons more viable...  Naturally, some weapons wont be as good as others in certain situations.  That's perfectly acceptable.  If all weapons were good in all situations, we'd just have 1 weapon.

 

Trust me, even if all mechs have air dodge, the majority of combat will STILL be on the ground (see Xac's post).  Allowing all mechs to air dodge simply adds another movement mechanic to make for more interesting gameplay.

 

"Just because you CAN do something does not mean it is worth while"  Actually... with all of the weapons you mentioned, direct hits are far more worth while than splash.  If you're getting direct hits (which you should be going for), it doesn't matter whether they're in the air or on the ground.  While on the ground it is, however, harder to land direct hits, as mechs have more maneuverability...  Splash is simply added to some weapons to make them forgiving, as they generally have lower ROFs.  Saying a weapon has splash, therefore mechs were meant to be on the ground, is simply untrue.

 

Your arguments revolve around weapons and their abilities to handle an air dodging mech.  I've already shown that nearly all weapons can handle it quite well.  I've also shown that allowing all mechs to air dodge will NOT make the entire game one of mechs flying around like jets everywhere as some seem to think.  Essentially, your arguments are invalid.  If you wish to say "I just dont like air dodge because it looks goofy", fine, that's simply your opinion.  But don't try to disguise that with some weaponry arguments.

[DerMax]

You know, guys, I just don't want Hawken to be another fast-paced UT-like pew-pew arena shooter.

 

When I just started playing in June 2013, duels felt like chess; they were about thinking through your and your opponent's next moves, and how you can counter them, keeping in mind your surroundings, how much fuel you have left and how many times you can shoot before overheating. It was a dance of death. The game used to be much more unforgiving, as it punished mistakes. Missed several shots? Too bad, your heat level is too high now, flee or die. No fuel? Then die. Made a bad decision and found yourself fighting several enemies? That kills the cat.

 

But Hawken has been dumbed down quite a bit. Now you have almost unlimited fuel, overheating is a problem only for a couple of weapons, and minding your surroundings is less important because you can always press the space bar and dodge wherever you want. And should you find yourself in a terrible spot, you can air-dodge into safety 9 times out of 10.

 

Just imagine for a second what the game will become if every single mech is given air-dodging as a built-in mechanic. I think it will become a pew-pew shooter, because much of the predictability that enables you to see through the enemy's next move will be gone.

 

I want a game of minds, not reflexes. But that's just me.

[Merl61]

You know, guys, I just don't want Hawken to be another fast-paced UT-like pew-pew arena shooter.

When I just started playing in June 2013, duels felt like chess; they were about thinking through your and your opponent's next moves, and how you can counter them, keeping in mind your surroundings, how much fuel you have left and how many times you can shoot before overheating. It was a dance of death. The game used to be much more unforgiving, as it punished mistakes. Missed several shots? Too bad, your heat level is too high now, flee or die. No fuel? Then die. Made a bad decision and found yourself fighting several enemies? That kills the cat.

But Hawken has been dumbed down quite a bit. Now you have almost unlimited fuel, overheating is a problem only for a couple of weapons, and minding your surroundings is less important because you can always press the space bar and dodge wherever you want. And should you find yourself in a terrible spot, you can air-dodge into safety 9 times out of 10.

Just imagine for a second what the game will become if every single mech is given air-dodging as a built-in mechanic. I think it will become a pew-pew shooter, because much of the predictability that enables you to see through the enemy's next move will be gone.

I want a game of minds, not reflexes. But that's just me.

Hawken is a game of both.

[RedVan]

You know, guys, I just don't want Hawken to be another fast-paced UT-like pew-pew arena shooter.

 

When I just started playing in June 2013, duels felt like chess; they were about thinking through your and your opponent's next moves, and how you can counter them, keeping in mind your surroundings, how much fuel you have left and how many times you can shoot before overheating. It was a dance of death. The game used to be much more unforgiving, as it punished mistakes. Missed several shots? Too bad, your heat level is too high now, flee or die. No fuel? Then die. Made a bad decision and found yourself fighting several enemies? That kills the cat.

 

But Hawken has been dumbed down quite a bit. Now you have almost unlimited fuel, overheating is a problem only for a couple of weapons, and minding your surroundings is less important because you can always press the space bar and dodge wherever you want. And should you find yourself in a terrible spot, you can air-dodge into safety 9 times out of 10.

 

Just imagine for a second what the game will become if every single mech is given air-dodging as a built-in mechanic. I think it will become a pew-pew shooter, because much of the predictability that enables you to see through the enemy's next move will be gone.

 

I want a game of minds, not reflexes. But that's just me.

 

This is a very common misconception of of UT and other arena shooters (which Hawken is).  Arena shooters require lots of minds, AND reflexes.  The MIND aspect just happens at a much faster pace, so many people don't really understand what's going on...  And trust me... when you make a bad move in UT, it is 100% unforgiving.  Just play nept, he'll capitalize every mistake you make in UT.

 

Make a bad decision and find yourself in the midst of several enemies in UT?  You will die just like you do in hawken...  Miss a shot in UT?  Most likely you will die before your opponent.

 

It appears people have forgotten what drew many of us to HAWKEN:

 

 

That looks to have way more fuel and air maneuverability than we currently, or ever had.  The game was dumbed down from that to make it a ground pounding splash monkey game requiring little reflexes or thought.  I mean, how much thought do you really need when you know your opponent is stuck to the ground?  Doesn't offer many options, therefore less thinking required overall.

 

Have you ever used air dodge on a C class?  Try it some time.  I promise you, it isn't even remotely close to what UT or any other "arena" shooter is.  Even the A classes aren't.  Like I said before, adding air dodge to all mechs as standard WILL NOT make all mechs as "crazy fast" as zerker with it (if one really even considers zerker as such, which I don't).

 

Currently, all mechs in a match can have air dodge, if all players select it.  If you really want to see how not bad it would be, get a group of friends and play like that.  I promise you, it will not be like UT!

 

I would like to finish with this:  "And should you find yourself in a terrible spot, you can air-dodge into safety 9 times out of 10."  First off, I'm calling you out for numbers pulled out of your ass.  But I'm going to pull some out of mine as well so we're on the same playing field.

 

Easily 75% of the game, if not more, is spent on the ground.  I guarantee you that you have never seen a match in which the majority of the mechs spent the majority of their time in the air.  Simply doesn't happen.  Therefore, using air dodge to get out of "9 out of 10" terrible spots would require one to jet into the air first, then air dodge.  As soon as you jet into the air, you've put yourself into a worse spot.  You've used fuel, and you're a sitting duck that everyone can see to shoot.  So you dodge!  Then you land.  Then you die.  Now, did you really get out of the terrible spot?  Or did you just make your situation worse by thinking air dodge would save you?  Given that the majority of the game is spent on the ground, its far more efficient to just use a ground dodge and boost away.

 

Before you say "well A class mechs always escape from me when I'm fighting them", just remember, they did that before air dodge too!

 

EDIT:

 

Also, I don't ever want to hear anyone ever say "Hawken wasn't meant to be as fast as it is", because the video I posted just proved you wrong.

Edited by RedVan, 22 March 2015 - 11:48 PM.

[DerMax]

It's funny how most American elite players keep babytalking to some of the best EU players like they don't know jack fuzzy bunny xD

 

I'll continue the argument when I'm done with today's volume of work.

[RedVan]

I mean, I see people saying they can't hit mechs in the air... What am I supposed to think lol
Or saying certain weapons, because they have splash, aren't good for hitting mechs in the air... Simply not true. That just tells me that they haven't learned how, because I know plenty of players who can.

[Hrono]

"Now, with the air compressor you have no risks, just benefits wich makes this internal unbalanced."

It's not a matter of risk vs. reward.  No internal has an inherent disadvantage or risk/reward system, so analyzing the air compressor with that in mind is kind of a null argument.   Let's examine your logic with another internal: Shock resistors.  If you have that internal equipped, you can land from any height without taking damage.  If you want to reduce damage on landing, you have to buffer your fall with spacebar.  zomg, dat internal is overpowered, nerf it.  

 

No, that's simply how all internals work. 

 

Why to stay on the ground when you just press space and get all the advantage ??

Holding spacebar = burning fuel.  It's also the slowest form of travel next to running.  Every mech boosts faster than it moves in the air, even the Berserker.  In terms of the speed/fuel usage payout, you're better off boosting if you gotta go fast. 

It's not about the Internal, it's about the action that it alows you to do(air dodge), has no risk/reward.

Can you name one other internal that allows you to do some different move in the game?

The fact is that it just gives you much more wide possibilities in movement, and as you guys already said, this game is all about movement.

 

[Hrono]

If the dev team listens to a couple people over the masses... this game is doomed (again)

I'm sorry, to whom they exactly listen last time ?

[Hrono]

You're forgetting the fact that floating opens up an entirely new plane of attack - beneath the mech. When you're on the ground secondary fire such as the TOW and GL only have effectiveness when detted above the target, the sides, and in front, NOT beneath. Also boost speeds are faster than air speeds for a majority of the mechs(excluding zerk).

The only mechs that benefit in the air are fast moving ones such as As and especially the zerker. No, I'm not talking about Cs with air comp, The meta is C based for other reasons (HP).

The boost speed is faster then the fly speed, yeah true.

Can you bost backwards ?

Can you shoot while bosting ?

Why did you even compare then it to boosting?
 

 

 

GL and TOW: Perfect vs AC

Heat:  Takes a little skill, but certainly excellent vs AC once you take a little time to learn how

EOC:  Takes a little skill, but certainly very usable vs AC.  I use it on my raider and have no problems hitting AC mechs

KLA projectile:  Probably the hardest thing to hit an AC mech with as it is slow ROF and no remote det.  But, certainly doable.

Rev-GL:  High ROF projectile... if you cannot figure out how to lead with a high ROF weapon, you've got bigger problems than an AC mech.

 

Nobody was saying that you can't hit an air target, with those weapons, hey you can even crashkill them if you want.

The only point is here, that it's just a lot harder to deal damage with them to AC targets.

[moosa17]

Air related content oveall ruined the game for lots of players (air speed, air compressor, fuel consumption). We all know the lore, and mechs are made out of super light material, but this removed a lot of game mechanics and brought the �press space to win� technique.

I hate the press space to win mechanic. But air dodges bring too much dimension to the game to get rid of. We don't need to be lowering the skill ceiling here. The main problem is the Berserker, and to a lesser extent Tech, who can swoop around in the air at will with bottomless fuel tanks. This needs to be addressed, but that doesn't mean we need to straight up nerf all air movement (mobility is a good thing; this isn't Mechwarrior).

It could be something as simple as increasing the time between air dodging and when you can start jetpacking again. (Also just flat-out nerf the Berserker because it's too powerful. Replace it's ability with something else.)

[Hrono]

I hate the press space to win mechanic. But air dodges bring too much dimension to the game to get rid of. We don't need to be lowering the skill ceiling here. The main problem is the Berserker, and to a lesser extent Tech, who can swoop around in the air at will with bottomless fuel tanks. This needs to be addressed, but that doesn't mean we need to straight up nerf all air movement (mobility is a good thing; this isn't Mechwarrior).

It could be something as simple as increasing the time between air dodging and when you can start jetpacking again. (Also just flat-out nerf the Berserker because it's too powerful. Replace it's ability with something else.)

 
The main point is that it took away more than it has given.

Indeed this game is not MechWarrior, but not a helicopter simulator either.

[LarryLaffer]

Remember the old days before air dodge, burst was king?  Now you're saying heat, rev, eoc... bursty weapons... have more trouble.  Looks to me like air dodge helped make sustained weapons more viable...  Naturally, some weapons wont be as good as others in certain situations.  That's perfectly acceptable.  If all weapons were good in all situations, we'd just have 1 weapon.

 
I think that bursty weapons except hitscan ones (FLAK, Mini-FLAK, ReFLAK, T32-Bolt, Breacher) have more troubles not only because of air dodges, but because of increased air maneuverability itself. And IMO it's not that bad, because I remember the old days when EOC-Repeater ruled the META, and there could be 3-4 mechs with it in a team. Now it's more like a situative weapon that is almost useless on Rocketeer. I think that there should be some balance between movements, weapons and map environment

 

My personal complaints against AC are listed below:

• It and Air-180 exclusively allow the "jumppad trap" bypassing due to the programming bug.
• It has way too unrealistic behaviour. There is inertia in this game, but for some magical reasons it doesn't apply to the air dodges. I don't mind against the way the mechs move in the video you posted though.
• Aesthetic aspect.Yes, it's a matter of the personal preferences, but I don't like what I see. I don't like Japanese mech style and prefer the mechs from BattleTech which are closer to Hawken. C-class (and partially B-class) mechs that instanly dodge in the air just look stupid and unnatural.

 
 

You know, guys, I just don't want Hawken to be another fast-paced UT-like pew-pew arena shooter.

 

This is a very common misconception of of UT and other arena shooters (which Hawken is).  Arena shooters require lots of minds, AND reflexes.  The MIND aspect just happens at a much faster pace, so many people don't really understand what's going on...  And trust me... when you make a bad move in UT, it is 100% unforgiving.  Just play nept, he'll capitalize every mistake you make in UT.

Let me ask you a question: why somebody, i.e. a new player, should prefer Hawken over such titans of the genre as Quake Live or Unreal Tournament? Because, you know, in the Hawken's most skill requiering game mode, the TDM,

90% of this game is just positioning anyway

while i.e. in Quake Live TDM there is positioning, map control and timings, the division of roles similar to classes in Hawken. This is important question, because the relevance of Arena FPS in modern gaming society is quite low. People like to play the games such as Battlefield, CS:GO or even MOBA games, but not Arena FPS. I personally stayed in Hawken for such a long time because of the reasons I've described earlier, but what to do with the newcomers?

[RedVan]

The boost speed is faster then the fly speed, yeah true.

Can you bost backwards ?

Can you shoot while bosting ?

Why did you even compare then it to boosting?
 

 

Nobody was saying that you can't hit an air target, with those weapons, hey you can even crashkill them if you want.

The only point is here, that it's just a lot harder to deal damage with them to AC targets.

 

Correct, nobody was saying that you can't hit an air target with those weapons.  This is what was said:

 

 

No, stop it, this is already a issue with many weapons not being balanced to deal with air dodge anyway. 

 

 

I imagine just trying to rev gl all these air dodge mechs. As they bop me on the head with TOWS

"MANY weapons NOT being balanced to deal with air dodge"

 

I simply pointed out how MOST weapons deal with it just fine, and that the couple that aren't as easy to use as a sustained weapon, are still very doable, and still not hard to deal damage with vs AC targets.

 

And really, who cares if you can shoot while flying backwards... if you're flying backwards, you're the easiest target in the game.  A target moving directly toward or away from you is the easiest target to hit.  A target floating in the air with limits on maneuverability is even easier.  At least if they're on the ground they can turn and boost the hell out the way.

 

If you have a problem with this, it is not the fault of the game mechanics...

 

 

 

And how does air dodge have no risk/reward?  You're burning up fuel by jetting in the air, then more as you dodge, leaving you stranded when you land...

 

 

 

 
The main point is that it took away more than it has given.

Indeed this game is not MechWarrior, but not a helicopter simulator either.

Well... nothing comes close to a helo sim in this game.  And even the zerker, the most maneuverable in the air, isn't at all how the game would look if all were given air dodge.

 

QUIT TRYING TO MAKE IT SOUND LIKE ALL MECHS WILL BE FLYING AROUND LIKE A ZERKER.  That's just stupid and not true.

Edited by RedVan, 23 March 2015 - 01:07 AM.

[IareDave]

The boost speed is faster then the fly speed, yeah true.

Can you bost backwards ?

Can you shoot while bosting ?

Why did you even compare then it to boosting?
 

 

Nobody was saying that you can't hit an air target, with those weapons, hey you can even crashkill them if you want.

The only point is here, that it's just a lot harder to deal damage with them to AC targets.

 

The boost speed is faster then the fly speed, yeah true.

Can you bost backwards ?

Can you shoot while bosting ?

Why did you even compare then it to boosting?
 

 

Nobody was saying that you can't hit an air target, with those weapons, hey you can even crashkill them if you want.

The only point is here, that it's just a lot harder to deal damage with them to AC targets.

You bring up blatant facts about game mechanics and then use this knowledge to support your claim that their is NO comparison between ground boosting and air boosting. Right.

 

I'm not sure what your argument here is. AC makes you harder to hit, correct I never denied such a claim. It's an internal, and like all internals they are implemented in the game to improve your effectiveness in combat - no one is denying the AC's use. What people, such as myself are denying, is the statement that many of people have made emphasizing that air movement is much harder to hit when in fact a floating target is very predictable, not to mention the fuel consumption is significantly increased resulting in less overall 'fast' movement (ie. movement requiring fuel such as boost+dodge maneuvers). The m/s of air speed is about half of that specific mechs ground speed. 

 

Just look at the in-game movement speed values. Numbers don't lie.

[moosa17]

Here's some facts to go along with the opinions:

 

1) aiming above is strictly more difficult than just aiming left-right in every first-person game

2) weapons that deal splash damage are strictly less effective vs airborne targets than grounded targets, since you can't hit the ground they're standing on (and this includes manually detonatable weapons) 

[Hrono]

You bring up blatant facts about game mechanics and then use this knowledge to support your claim that their is NO comparison between ground boosting and air boosting. Right.

 

I'm not sure what your argument here is. AC makes you harder to hit, correct I never denied such a claim. It's an internal, and like all internals they are implemented in the game to improve your effectiveness in combat - no one is denying the AC's use. What people, such as myself are denying, is the statement that many of people have made emphasizing that air movement is much harder to hit when in fact a floating target is very predictable, not to mention the fuel consumption is significantly increased resulting in less overall 'fast' movement (ie. movement requiring fuel such as boost+dodge maneuvers). The m/s of air speed is about half of that specific mechs ground speed. 

 

Just look at the in-game movement speed values. Numbers don't lie.

Yep, blatant facts why AC brings up a totally new move in the game  (like no other internal dose) that allows the player to press space without any risk.

After ascension the fuel consumption for "flight" was reduced a lot, and you have more then enough time to use all the advantage of the AC.

And again you compare boost speed and flight speed, and there are two major difference between them,

 

1. You cant fire when you boost, and you can fire when you fly.
2. You cant dodge backwards, you can fly backwards and shoot out your enemies while retreating.

Thats why we compare flying to walking not to boosting.

[Houruck]

If the dev team listens to a couple people over the masses... this game is doomed (again)

I think that quite the opposite happened. They implemented the AC because they listened to the masses.
 
Dear American players commenting in this thread before me (it really boiled down to this?).
The reason we are against it is not because we can not aim. Some of us come from a twitch shooter background (I am a Quaker for example and Deaod mostly plays UT instagib, and his aim is superb). I do not understand why you dismiss us saying we are in a lower tier. Too bad there is no way we can play with each other on equal terms. :) I would also like to ask you guys to read these posts carefully instead of cherry-picking things to attack.

Edited by Houruck, 23 March 2015 - 02:16 AM.

[Hrono]

And really, who cares if you can shoot while flying backwards... if you're flying backwards, you're the easiest target in the game.  A target moving directly toward or away from you is the easiest target to hit.  A target floating in the air with limits on maneuverability is even easier.  At least if they're on the ground they can turn and boost the hell out the way.

 

If you have a problem with this, it is not the fault of the game mechanics...

 

 

 

And how does air dodge have no risk/reward?  You're burning up fuel by jetting in the air, then more as you dodge, leaving you stranded when you land...

 

QUIT TRYING TO MAKE IT SOUND LIKE ALL MECHS WILL BE FLYING AROUND LIKE A ZERKER.  That's just stupid and not true.

 

Please look around and see how many mechs actually are using air compressor.

Yes you are an easy target when you fly backwards and shoot, but unless you have the AIR COMPRESSOR.  Then you are not so easy to hit any-more, correct?

After ascension the fuel consumption for "flight" was reduced a lot, and you have more then enough time to use all the advantage of the AC.

 

[Deadmen_Tim]

If the dev team listens to a couple people over the masses... this game is doomed (again)

To a chosen elite, to be little more exact. That happened once and will happen again with no problem. But it wasn't EU side who supported this course over many mounths.

 

P.S. Whatever. What about DerMax's suggestion about more active discussing this topic in TeamSpeak?

 

Edited by Deadmen_Tim, 23 March 2015 - 01:43 AM.

[TheVulong]

I'm not sure if i even should get into this for the 756th time but there was no raising the skill ceiling. If anything, the addition of AC and hyper air dynamics dumbed down the overall gameplay, because as many people mentioned: 

 

First, when it comes to A's and B's you fly faster than you walk and you can also backpedal in the air while keeping the ability to shoot which means that you can retreat at a high speed while firing back at the enemy - mechs that stay on the ground can't do that: they're either forced to fight or run. 

 

Second, for the most part the maps we have now are pretty open and there is plenty of air space with no obstacles around which leads us to the next issue: predictability and "reading" your opponent. While the mech that sticks to the ground has to pay attention to his surroundings in order to not get stuck on the wall and make it harder for the opponent to read it's next action, the mech that hangs in the air has no such problems - for the most part it is literally impossible to tell where the flying mech is gonna go since usually there is no terrain taken into account when dodgin in the air.

 

Third, when using projectile weapons(heat, eoc, rev-gl), that were designed for shooting ground targets exclusively and that rely heavily on having that ground under the opponent in order to be fully efficent are practically unable to compete with an airborn mech that has a hitscan weapon not only because all the projectile weapons are burst based and have poor DPS but also because they are not suited for the current flight-heavy meta. 

I remember having this exact conversation with you about a year ago, and all i heard from you back then was: "learn to play". And here we are again. The thing is: we know how to play, we learned how to deal with air targets long time ago but it doesn't change the fact that the air meta is bullsh*t and AC users are not fun to play against. 

[Fantus_Longhorn]

Lets not make this about different nations, that's kind of pathetic (to be blunt). We can't speak for everyone in our relative locale so shouldn't presume to.

 

In all honesty, I don't have an issue with the AC in itself. I do, however, have a huge issue with the lack of consistency in its implementation. Either, it needs to be universal/accessible to all from the start or removed. Currently you have to be about level 20 before you can equip it, or pay MC for it to get it straightaway (...hey, that kinda looks like Pay to win). A decision needs to be made over an item that has a big impact on something as fundamental as movement, in a game that I think we can all agree is largely about movement:

 

• Is it fun to use?
• Is it fun to play against?*
• Should it be made universally available (as an internal)?
• Should it be incorporated into the movement of all mechs by default?
• Should it be removed?

 

*Personally, I think this is the most important one to discuss.

Edited by Fantus_Longhorn, 23 March 2015 - 02:07 AM.

[Grollourdo]

NO AIR DODGE AS A STANDARD! XD lol

[RedVan]

Here's some facts to go along with the opinions:

 

1) aiming above is strictly more difficult than just aiming left-right in every first-person game

2) weapons that deal splash damage are strictly less effective vs airborne targets than grounded targets, since you can't hit the ground they're standing on (and this includes manually detonatable weapons) 

 

1) If so, then very slightly, and certainly easy to learn.

2) Untrue.  The fact that they deal splash damage does not make them less effective vs airborne targets.  It simply makes them easier vs targets on the ground.

 

 

Please look around and see how many mechs actually are using air compressor.

Yes you are an easy target when you fly backwards and shoot, but unless you have the AIR COMPRESSOR.  Then you are not so easy to hit any-more, correct?

After ascension the fuel consumption for "flight" was reduced a lot, and you have more then enough time to use all the advantage of the AC.

 

Mechs flying backwards with AC are just as easy to shoot as those w/o AC.  Flying backwards in a straight line does not change whether you have AC or not.  It's still an easy shot.  If someone is shooting back at you while they fly backwards, who effin cares!  Dodge it, and be glad they're still an easy shot!  The ability to shoot back while retreating is quite irrelevant.

 

 

I remember having this exact conversation with you about a year ago, and all i heard from you back then was: "learn to play". And here we are again. The thing is: we know how to play, we learned how to deal with air targets long time ago but it doesn't change the fact that the air meta is bullsh*t and AC users are not fun to play against. 

I have no problem if you dislike air dodge.  Just don't pretend like it's bad because weapons aren't "designed" for it, or whatever other stupid reason people have been giving.  Just say you dislike it.

 

 

I think that quite the opposite happened. They implemented the AC because they listened to the masses.
 
Dear American players commenting in this thread before me (it really boiled down to this?).
The reason we are against it is not because we can not aim. Some of us come from a twitch shooter background (I am a Quaker for example and Deaod mostly plays UT instagib, and his aim is superb). I do not understand why you dismiss us saying we are in a lower tier. Too bad there is no way we can play with each other on equal terms. :) I would also like to ask you guys to read these posts carefully instead of cherry-picking things to attack.

If you can aim, then don't complain about AC for the reason you're complaining about it.  Because the reasons you're giving all boil down to your ability to aim.  You're bringing it upon yourselves.  I'm not gonna sugar coat it.

Edited by RedVan, 23 March 2015 - 02:24 AM.

[Fantus_Longhorn]

2) Untrue.  The fact that they deal splash damage does not make them less effective vs airborne targets.  It simply makes them easier vs targets on the ground.

 

A better way of phrasing what (I think) moosa17 meant is that the versatility of the splash weapons is lost. Splash weapons should be balanced around this versatility when made so they do, in effect, become less effective in the air. A splash weapon should do less damage on a direct hit than a hit-scan weapon on a direct hit, due to the splash damage being able to damage without a hit.

 

EDIT: Ugh. Those sentences read terribly, I apologize 

Edited by Fantus_Longhorn, 23 March 2015 - 02:33 AM.

[Houruck]

If you can aim, then don't complain about AC for the reason you're complaining about it.  Because the reasons you're giving all boil down to your ability to aim.  You're bringing it upon yourselves.  I'm not gonna sugar coat it.

I love Warsow's game mode where you can only damage your enemy if you hit them with a rocket midair. :)
We never said it is impossible to hit them. Could you please address the points Fantus listed above?

[DerMax]

Can anyone give me a concrete example of how the AC adds to the skill ceiling? I think I'm missing out.

 

Can anyone also tell me how the current Hawken has a higher skill ceiling than the pre-Ascension Hawken?

[Anichkov3]

In my opinion this is a dumb idea. 

We have not an aviasimulator. Meaningless to try to transfer the flight mechanics Armored Core. 

The game has a few mechs which is useful AC: Berserk, Bruiser, Assault, Scout, Technik, Rocketeer. 

Please make it a standard for all mechs  automatically makes the above mechs imbalanced - they have released many slots for internal.

You want to Air Combat? Please! Now you can be sure that two or three of the enemy team will play with A?. 

And in general why the AC? Change the mechanics of the game? Maybe you have the wrong game? 

[LarryLaffer]

Can anyone give me a concrete example of how the AC adds to the skill ceiling? I think I'm missing out.

 Well, compared to groundwork there is resource management when using AC. Also some skill is needed to use AC effectively. As for groundworkers you need to aim better and predict more when playing against AC.
 

Can anyone also tell me how the current Hawken has a higher skill ceiling than the pre-Ascension Hawken?

It hasn't. One skill requirements replaced another. In pre-Ascension Hawken there were resource management, weapon spread and steady decision-wise fights. In current Hawken there are new dimension and movement patterns, more aiming requirements and more reflex-based combat (you still have to think).
 

The game has a few mechs which is useful AC: Berserk, Bruiser, Assault, Scout, Technik, Rocketeer.

It is useful on every A and B class mech if you play agressive. Look some Meraple videos with agressive Predator.

 

edit: some typos

Edited by LarryLaffer, 23 March 2015 - 03:17 AM.

[Hrono]

Mechs flying backwards with AC are just as easy to shoot as those w/o AC.  Flying backwards in a straight line does not change whether you have AC or not. 

No.

The AC give's him the ability to dodge. How can you even argue about that?


 

[Crminimal]

I am tentative to changes for the AC.

If must be: Higher fuel consumption for AC dodges, and maybe ad some weapon spread to airborne mechs.. 
Do not remove AC or give it to all mechs. I find it is a pretty neat internal and fun allbeit hard to play against, mostly cause my aim sucks. 

 

Credentials:

EU player around 2100 mmr in my prime. I rarely if ever use AC
Not entirely scrubby but pretty close in some regards.


 

Edited by Crminimal, 23 March 2015 - 03:37 AM.

[LoC_TR]

Figured i'd throw my two cents in here.. the AC on all mechs yes/no discussion is a moot point. There are larger issues that exacerbate any issues with balancing. The original maps imho we're for the most part either poorly designed or made for looks such as Prosk. Until they correct the fundamental problems with this game it is impossible to balance the game further as far as internals, weapons, and abilities go. As mentioned earlier, positioning in this game is crucial, and when you implement a new mechanic like air dodging to maps that were not created for it tears right through any sort of balance you intend. 

 

The foundation must be repaired before you can get to the nitty gritty numbers. Anyways.. good to be back.

[Fantus_Longhorn]

The foundation must be repaired before you can get to the nitty gritty numbers. Anyways.. good to be back.

 

It could be argued that the foundation is the mechs. They are the common factor and how they move defines how a map should be designed.

[RedVan]

A better way of phrasing what (I think) moosa17 meant is that the versatility of the splash weapons is lost. Splash weapons should be balanced around this versatility when made so they do, in effect, become less effective in the air. A splash weapon should do less damage on a direct hit than a hit-scan weapon on a direct hit, due to the splash damage being able to damage without a hit.

 

EDIT: Ugh. Those sentences read terribly, I apologize 

 

Well certainly the splash aspect is lost if you hit them directly, but then it's lost if they're on the ground and you hit them directly as well.  This is not a balance issue at all.  Again, consider Tribes:  Majority of weapons were splash, but used just as effectively in the air.  If it were a balance issue, then Tribes was a terribly balanced game.

 

And no, a weapon that does splash should not necessarily do less damage from a direct hit...  The general tradeoff with splash weaponry is ROF.  More splash = lower ROF in general.

 

 

Can anyone give me a concrete example of how the AC adds to the skill ceiling? I think I'm missing out.

 

Can anyone also tell me how the current Hawken has a higher skill ceiling than the pre-Ascension Hawken?

Any time you add to movement mechanics, you increase the skill ceiling.  Not only are there more movement mechanics for people to master, but also people must master hitting them.

 

Compare a game like BF to Hawken.  BF has no dodge and slow predictable movement, with plenty of high ROF weapons.  Hawken has dodge and boosts, and many "slower" (relative to BF) ROF weapons.  You move from simple targets with high ROF weapons, to targets that have better avoidance measures, and slower ROF weapons.  Add air dodge to the equation, and it increases the skill ceiling even more.

 

 

No.

The AC give's him the ability to dodge. How can you even argue about that?


 

You never said the mech flying backwards was dodging...  If they dodge, then yes, you might miss a shot if they're smart with it.  But then you just hit them after they dodge.  Or after they've burnt all their energy and are a sitting duck on the ground.

 

Also, keep in mind they're retreating... that means YOU are doing something they want to get away from, which implies your team hitting them... which means, clearly, they can be hit even with AC...

[TheVulong]

Figured i'd throw my two cents in here.. the AC on all mechs yes/no discussion is a moot point. There are larger issues that exacerbate any issues with balancing. The original maps imho we're for the most part either poorly designed or made for looks such as Prosk. Until they correct the fundamental problems with this game it is impossible to balance the game further as far as internals, weapons, and abilities go. As mentioned earlier, positioning in this game is crucial, and when you implement a new mechanic like air dodging to maps that were not created for it tears right through any sort of balance you intend. 

 

The foundation must be repaired before you can get to the nitty gritty numbers. Anyways.. good to be back.

While you're correct, i doubt that we will see any map changes in the near future. 

 

Also, welcome back :3

Edited by TheVulong, 23 March 2015 - 04:05 AM.

[Hrono]

Here is the main Idea,

Redvan with air compressor will dominate redvan without air compressor

Hrono with air compressor will dominate hrono without air compressor
 

Edited by Hrono, 23 March 2015 - 04:07 AM.

[Houruck]

Please delete this post, I do not want to derail the thread.

Edited by Houruck, 23 March 2015 - 04:14 AM.