202 replies to this topic

[Zhoyzu]

As a grenadier main, the air dodge was a brutal addition. I can still win but i need to be in a preferable location to do so. which as the maps became much more open i became obsolete that much quicker and had to find an alternate mech to master.

[Grollourdo]

As a grenadier main, the air dodge was a brutal addition. I can still win but i need to be in a preferable location to do so. which as the maps became much more open i became obsolete that much quicker and had to find an alternate mech to master.

Every mech has to have its advantages and disadvantages XD

[RedVan]

 

No? I mean, sure people make that claim with the old hawken videos and such. But in the 12/12/12 era there was no air gameplay like that. Look objectively it lets players keep distance in a much more simple way. Does that really add to the game? I think it hurts the game from the tight feeling of the old duels pre-ascending.

 

 

Well to be honest that does not address whether or not the air system was needed, I would argue it was not. But regardless, I do not like how the air system works before even factoring in the internal. Again it makes keeping distance more simple, and from that point of view it adds less to the game. Add the internal and you have a easy way to keep distance and press while in air, and it is quite simply not fun to fight. As you admitted it is actually rather annoying. 

 

 

Yes, gameplay was meant to have aerial combat.  The video shows it.  Everything was toned down for some ungodly reason though.  Probably because we had a fair amount of MW players crying for HAWKEN to be more like MW.  The game was dumbed down from what the video portrays.

 

Thats the thing, it added to the game less than it took away, and the changes to air systems and the AC pretty much harmed the ground work gameplay that made the game so tight. Look at WolfyFTWs vids, and tell me that the air system was  needed. It just was not. 

 

I personally favor a middle road where only a few mechs can wind work, but even then momentum and other systems need to be added to make it less derpy, and ground work should be central. 

 

 

Air combat is not "necessary".  It is just fun.  We could have a very boring, slow, MW game.  But then, many of us wouldn't bother wasting our time in the game any more.
 

 

If you're talking about Tribes: Ascend, people don't really use Spinfusors midair except if it's out of being desperate or for showing off. The automatic weapons with stupidly fast projectile speeds and much much higher DPS against midair targets. Moreover, the movement in the air was much more predictable in Tribes than it is in Hawken because you had minimal air control, compared to Hawken.

No, talking about T1 and T2.  You're missing the point however, TheVulong tried to make a point that splash means the game was meant to be played on the ground.  That's simply not true, as Tribes proves weapons with splash are also meant for games in the air.

 

 

Ehhh I feel like this is wishful thinking and that you're missing the point with these in particular.  A few points!

 

The mechs that benefit most from AC, A classes, are also the mechs most endangered by these weapons; one volley from any of them (and probably the grenade that came with the rev-gl shot) and you'd be retreating for cover unless you don't know how to play an A class.  The AC is, like a good internal should be, an advantage you can choose to equip to your mech that benefits you situationally, or in other words, a thing you can have to make your glass cannon viable against a rude opponent.

 

The other point is that with any of those weapons, I'd either wait or plan for when they land.  This is in DM; in a larger game with a team, I'd probably do the same while making space from the AC user and attacking other targets in hopes of eliminating them to concentrate my team's fire more on the AC user if he's still alive and that hasn't already happened.

 

Also, use it until you're good with it and you'll probably notice that it's fun as hell.

My only point was that those weapons work just fine vs aerial targets, which is what people seem to not believe.  Are the optimal?  No.  A weapon with more versatility should not be optimal in a single situation.  If a weapon can lay mines and do splash damage, why should it be the best option vs targets in the air?  That would be OP.

 

 

The point is that it is not fun to play against.

Well, many of us disagree.  I find it quite fun to play against.

 

 

I am still baffled that you guys dismiss our concerns stating that we can not play the game. I wish we could get over this and start a civilised conversation.
  
Someone reminded me that this already happened. RedVan had a couple of duels with Deadmen_Tim and they both had similar ping (Tim lives in Siberia). I only have this old clip (too bad we could not find the others that show Tim's flawless victory). VP wanted to play other high MMR US champions but they never showed up. :(
 
Edit: YouTube embedding still does not work. :(
https://youtu.be/iUARabQLiKU

 

It is concerning when people claim things are too hard to hit, and then pretend like it's us saying that's a skill issue...  If you say it's hard to hit something in the air, you're saying your own skill is too low to do so.  Nobody else is saying it.

 

If you dislike it because you simply don't like the feel, fine.  But don't make up BS about how weapons aren't designed to handle mechs in the air, or how maps aren't made for it...  That's just an attempt to cover up your disdain for a mechanic you simply don't like.

 

Also, that duel with Tim was me with a high ping, which I had NEVER played at before, also using a scout, which I didn't frequently use... so, I really would hope Tim beat me, because he had all the advantage lol.  That would be really really bad if I had won lol.

 

 

The difference isn't that significant. A Berserker that only hovers, can remain in the air for 7 seconds. If you spam dodge in the air, that time is reduced to 6 seconds. 6 seconds is still a lot of time.

 

Ok, so, I really hope that EU players can hit things in the air.  Like I said, based on what ya'll are saying... sounds like you have problems with that...  That's not me saying it, that's you guys saying it.

 

Anyway, 6 seconds in the air.  That's 6 seconds they're a standout target for every sustained weapon in the book.  Guess what happens when they land?  They have no energy.  Now they're the easiest, weakest target for every weapon in the book.  Why complain about someone being stupid enough to spend 6 seconds in the air?

 

Also, you're looking at ONE MECH.  No other mech can do that.  Giving all mechs AC will not make all mechs like the zerker.  It's that simple.

 

You may ask:  "Why give AC to all mechs if they aren't going to be able to take 'advantage' of it like the zerker then?"

 

AC simply gives another option to use in your playstyle.  Many people forgo AC on heavier mechs because there are more useful things.  Essentially, AC can be disregarded as an option to players with heavier mechs.  That means one less option for gameplay.  More options = better.  Give it standard to all, then players can use that option (or hell, never dodge in the air for all I care), and use other options.

 

 

 

I would argue the hovering, and air dynamics overall make keeping distance too simple, it allows players to really not commit to a fight and really in my view promotes a more awkward gameplay. The fact that hovering puts people on radar is a non-issue as people will over really hover while dueling and again the benefits of floating to control range far out weight these niggling weaknesses.  Also they have the ability to press evade and damage at the same time in a more fluid manner than a ground work player,  pretty much off setting the fact that they will have to fight for a short time, as they will do damage in a more constant manner, factor in the fact that normal ground work dodging is not fuel based, and it is not a big deal they hit the ground, and dodge around normally after the wind walking has given that player a edge.  

 

It is usually a bad idea to make something like this universal, when we sit down and talk about it, and say that it should be universal cause it is so good and so central to gameplay, while it messes with the ground work side of things of a system that was solid pre-asending and still is, to put it bluntly no one had issues with the ground work system pre-ascend (Aside from a silly back dodge), but many have issues with the air work, that is not a tip off to make wind walking more universal, it sort of points to the opposite. 

 

Another way to put is is asking the question if there was anything wrong with the old ground work system? I think many people would agree it was pretty fun from a game-play point of view, and I feel like people were happy with the complexity of that system. I question this air dodge stuff when it is infringing on what I think was a pretty solid core of game-play movement. 

 

Yes.  Mechs with AC have the option to press evade and damage at the same time!  You get it!  Give that option to all mechs and then you won't need to complain about only some mechs being able to do so!

 

Also, all this talk about not committing to a fight... A class has never had to commit to a fight.  Since Alpha, they've been able to get the hell out of dodge when they want for the most part.  This is nothing new resulting from AC.

 

"Nobody had issues with the ground work system pre-Ascend..."  First off, broad statement which is blatantly wrong.  Anyway, not having issues with the ground work system =! having issues with the lack of an air work system.

 

 

As a grenadier main, the air dodge was a brutal addition. I can still win but i need to be in a preferable location to do so. which as the maps became much more open i became obsolete that much quicker and had to find an alternate mech to master.

 

People keep using grenadier as an example.  That's one mech.  They also keep using zerker as an example.  That's one mech.  With all mechs having AC, the game will not become all grenadiers vs zerkers.  I promise you :)

 

Also, HF users are useless in some maps, better in others.  Same with grenadier.  Same with SS.  Same with every other mech.  Some mechs more versatile than others, obviously, or everyone would be using the same specific mechs for the specific maps they are good on.
 

 

Sorry for WOT

Edited by RedVan, 23 March 2015 - 10:29 PM.

[Hrono]

It's not about the Internal, it's about the action that it alows you to do(air dodge), has no risk/reward.

Actually, the air dodge costs fuel, meaning that air-dodge spammers will run out of fuel considerably faster than if they were to simply hover.  Hovering also puts you on radar, as does dodging.   

 

Can you name one other internal that allows you to do some different move in the game?
The fact is that it just gives you much more wide possibilities in movement, and as you guys already said, this game is all about movement.

All the more reason to promote it as a universal feature, rather than a purchasable upgrade.  

 

Yes they will run out of fuel, but when they will  be back the ground, they will be able to dodge , cause it dose not cost fuel at the ground, and this is why fuel is not so relevant as it was, so you can spend it  in mid air then return to the ground and continue the battle if necessary.
 
Implementing the air dodge to the game will be aesthetically bad.

Edited by Hrono, 24 March 2015 - 02:37 AM.

[Houruck]

Yes they will run out of fuel, but when they will  be back the ground, they will be able to dodge , cause it dose not cost fuel at the ground, and this is why fuel is not so relevant as it was so you can spend it  in mid air then return to the ground and continue the battle if necessary.

Good point!
Dodge used to burn fuel on the ground before. Now it just stops the regeneration.

[LarryLaffer]

Yes they will run out of fuel, but when they will  be back the ground, they will be able to dodge , cause it dose not cost fuel at the ground, and this is why fuel is not so relevant as it was so you can spend it  in mid air then return to the ground and continue the battle if necessary.
 
Implementing the air dodge to the game will be aesthetically bad.

 

Good point!
Dodge used to burn fuel on the ground before. Now it just stops the regeneration.

Yep, good point indeed. Add the Fuel Converter here and you'll get the whole picture. I have to admit that fuel isn't a valuable resource in current metagame. I am trying to play with AC on various mechs now, and Scout is the only mech this far I have to manage my fuel wisely.

Edited by LarryLaffer, 24 March 2015 - 02:10 AM.

[Grollourdo]

Yep, good point indeed. Add the Fuel Converter here and you'll get the whole picture. I have to admit that fuel isn't a valuable resource in current metagame. I am trying to play with AC on various mechs now, and Scout is the only mech this far I have to manage my fuel wisely.

Yeah I agree with u guys

[defekt]

Oh!... this is your game now?. Is it going to be "HAWKEN - specials snowflakes tells them what to and not do" edition?.

 

I really hope that the new devs doesnt take you guys serious, Jesus Christ I feared that s_hit like this was going to happend...

Honest request, Durandal1707: please, don't do that.  Today, at least, everyone has a voice, which you have to admit was not entirely the case under the previous administration.  What we have now is a chance to make up for some of the shortcomings of the previous eras -- and perhaps introduce some new ones, such is the way of things -- and at present the devs are keen to give everyone's voice equal air time.  Let people speak and if you disagree with what they have to say make your own case. 

[Grollourdo]

Honest request, Durandal1707: please, don't do that.  Today, at least, everyone has a voice, which you have to admit was not entirely the case under the previous administration.  What we have now is a chance to make up for some of the shortcomings of the previous eras -- and perhaps introduce some new ones, such is the way of things -- and at present the devs are keen to give everyone's voice equal air time.  Let people speak and if you disagree with what they have to say make your own case. 

 

damn this guy ...... how do u do this???? i would get pissed if someone talked to me like that (maybe its my age XD lol) ur so calm and all plus u make ur point so clearly, i admire that  XD

[Kopra]

 

No, talking about T1 and T2.  You're missing the point however, TheVulong tried to make a point that splash means the game was meant to be played on the ground.  That's simply not true, as Tribes proves weapons with splash are also meant for games in the air.

 

Alright. I don't have experience from T1/T2 so can't really comment on that. T:A offers a direct hit bonus and even a credit bonus to getting aerials, but still the game's automatic weapons decimate aerial targets so fast it doesn't matter.

 

 

 

 

My only point was that those weapons work just fine vs aerial targets, which is what people seem to not believe.  Are the optimal?  No.  A weapon with more versatility should not be optimal in a single situation.  If a weapon can lay mines and do splash damage, why should it be the best option vs targets in the air?  That would be OP.

 

In Hawken, hitscan is very reliable and effective against both ground and aerial targets, while the splash weaponry isn't necessarily the most effective option at either situation because the splash weaponry got nerfed hard and sustain/hitscan got buffed beyond belief. Even if you hit every projectile perfectly, it still doesn't guarantee you a win because a sustain weapon does so much DPS it can deal serious damage in environments with bad cover, like Bunker. There isn't a single map where having a hitscan weapon isn't effective. To me that sounds sustain hitscan is OP.

 

 

 

 

Ok, so, I really hope that EU players can hit things in the air. 

 

Like I said, based on what ya'll are saying... sounds like you have problems with that...  That's not me saying it, that's you guys saying it.

 

Anyway, 6 seconds in the air.  That's 6 seconds they're a standout target for every sustained weapon in the book.  Guess what happens when they land?  They have no energy.  Now they're the easiest, weakest target for every weapon in the book.  Why complain about someone being stupid enough to spend 6 seconds in the air?

 

Also, you're looking at ONE MECH.  No other mech can do that.  Giving all mechs AC will not make all mechs like the zerker.  It's that simple.

 

FYI, I only corrected Xacius's claim about airdodging significantly increasing fuel usage compared to straight hovering. It doesn't. Fuel still isn't a significant resource to be managed except for a few mechs.

 

So it's not necessarily 6 seconds in the air continously. It's enough fuel to stay in the air for 6 seconds even with wild dodging. They have enough fuel to land in a place where they're safer and in that safe place, have enough fuel to do something else.

 

I looked at one mech, the Berserker, because that is, to my understanding, the most common mech to equip AC on. The point was that AC doesn't make your fuel deplete significantly faster than just hovering. That is true for ALL mechs that use AC.

 

 

 

[TheVulong]

Air combat is not "necessary".  It is just fun.  We could have a very boring, slow, MW game.  But then, many of us wouldn't bother wasting our time in the game any more.

So, following your logic, the pre-Ascension Hawken was very boring, slow and MW-like, right? If so, why did you play it in the first place?

 

TheVulong tried to make a point that splash means the game was meant to be played on the ground.  That's simply not true, as Tribes proves weapons with splash are also meant for games in the air.

You're confusing the terms "meant for" and "can be used for". The very concept of a splash damage projectile weapon implies that direct hits with that weapon are supposed to be more difficult in comparison to non-splash projectile weapons or hitscan weapons. That's why you have splash damage to compensate for that fact. That said, while it's certainly possible to land direct hits with something like Heat or Rev-GL on a mid-air target, these weapons were never "meant" to be used in such a way, they just can be used so.

 

Well, many of us disagree.  I find it quite fun to play against.

Since you're also using the AC, i would imagine.

 

If you say it's hard to hit something in the air, you're saying your own skill is too low to do so.

We're(or i am at least) saying that airborne targets are hard to hit in comparison to ground targets because once again: height advantage, no ground to trigger the splash and no surroundings to clearly predict the movement.

Edited by TheVulong, 24 March 2015 - 06:10 AM.

[shosca]

...higher combat speed...

 

 

 

More movement options != higher combat speed.  Again, there are only three mechs that can go faster when airborne, zerker, bruiser and rocketeer. All the other mechs get a speed penalty (scout being the most penalized 32%) for being airborne.

[TheVulong]

More movement options != higher combat speed.  Again, there are only three mechs that can go faster when airborne, zerker, bruiser and rocketeer. All the other mechs get a speed penalty (scout being the most penalized 32%) for being airborne.

 

I was refering to air speed exclusively. And yeah, i just checked the stats: you were right - only a few mechs can fly faster than they can walk. with Berzerker having the most ridiculous numbers: 19m/s on the ground vs 25m/s in the air - that's equal to or a bit higher than boosting speed of Grenadier, Rocketeer and Brawler. So basically, you can't outrun the Zerker in these mechs.

[RedVan]

 

Air combat is not "necessary".  It is just fun.  We could have a very boring, slow, MW game.  But then, many of us wouldn't bother wasting our time in the game any more.

So, following your logic, the pre-Ascension Hawken was very boring, slow and MW-like, right? If so, why did you play it in the first place?

 

TheVulong tried to make a point that splash means the game was meant to be played on the ground.  That's simply not true, as Tribes proves weapons with splash are also meant for games in the air.

You're confusing the terms "meant for" and "can be used for". The very concept of a splash damage projectile weapon implies that direct hits with that weapon are supposed to be more difficult in comparison to non-splash projectile weapons or hitscan weapons. That's why you have splash damage to compensate for that fact. That said, while it's certainly possible to land direct hits with something like Heat or Rev-GL on a mid-air target, these weapons were never "meant" to be used in such a way, they just can be used so.

 

Well, many of us disagree.  I find it quite fun to play against.

Since you're also using the AC, i would imagine.

 

If you say it's hard to hit something in the air, you're saying your own skill is too low to do so.

We're(or i am at least) saying that airborne targets are hard to hit in comparison to ground targets because once again: height advantage, higher combat speed, no ground to trigger the splash and no surroundings to clearly predict the movement.

 

That's not following logic.  I never said pre-Ascension Hawken was boring, slow, and MW-like.  Saying something could be better =! it is as bad as something else.  I was merely pointing out that hawken has aspects that make it fun compared to MW type games.  Air combat is one.  Dodge is another.  Boosting another.

 

I'm not confusing "meant for" and "can be used for" at all.  You're confusing the subject.  The subject is whether a game is meant to be played on the ground.  Not whether weapons were meant for specific tasks.  The fact that a weapon has splash, or in the case of Tribes, the majority of weapons were splash, does not mean the game was meant to be played on the ground.  You're trying to make the argument that "because weapons have splash, mechs were meant to be on the ground".  That's not true, and Tribes is a perfect example of how untrue it is.

 

As for "The very concept of a splash damage projectile weapon implies that direct hits with that weapon are supposed to be more difficult in comparison to non-splash projectile weapons or hitscan weapons. That's why you have splash damage to compensate for that fact. That said, while it's certainly possible to land direct hits with something like Heat or Rev-GL on a mid-air target, these weapons were never "meant" to be used in such a way, they just can be used so."

Yes, that is true.  I even said so myself quite a ways back in this thread:

 

Splash is simply added to some weapons to make them forgiving, as they generally have lower ROFs.  Saying a weapon has splash, therefore mechs were meant to be on the ground, is simply untrue.

 

As for me using AC:

I do on most of my A class mechs.  A couple of my B class mechs.  And perhaps on one C class, cant remember.  I rarely play zerker.  I play A and B class quite equally.  I use air dodge primarily as a maneuvering tool, as it doesn't offer a huge advantage to avoid getting hit (risk reward of being in the air is still enormous).

 

Ground targets have options.  Airborne do not.  Yes, EOC and Rev-GL suffer vs airborne targets.  Most other weapons do not.  Hell, even the heat is incredibly easy vs airborne targets, it's charged shot is nearly hitscan at mid range.

 

This height advantage you speak of... not really a thing.  If your opponent is higher than you, there is no aim disadvantage.  They are a wide open target (only saved now that they can dodge).  And have far less fuel when they land to make escape harder.  Yes, they do have a small advantage in being able to splash better from above.  That's about it.

 

Guess what, I can predict an enemies movement every time he goes up!  Know what he does next?  He comes down.  Funny how that works, I know :)  Know what else, in wide open maps there's no difference in prediction whether they're on the ground or in the air.  Hell, even maps with cover it's easy to predict.  They're most likely going to head towards cover after exposing themselves so much...  really not that hard to figure out.

 

Now, if you say they're harder to hit in comparison to ground targets, I would have hoped you like a challenge in your video games...

 

 

I was refering to air speed exclusively. And yeah, i just checked the stats: you were right - only a few mechs can fly faster than they can walk. with Berzerker having the most ridiculous numbers: 19m/s on the ground vs 25m/s in the air - that's equal to or a bit higher than boosting speed of Grenadier, Rocketeer and Brawler. So basically, you can't outrun the Zerker in these mechs.

Now, I keep seeing the zerker being talked about.  TBH, I could really care less if it were toned down a little.  That's not what I'm concerned with.  I just want all mechs to be able to dodge while in the air as a standard feature.

Edited by RedVan, 24 March 2015 - 06:27 AM.

[shosca]

I was refering to air speed exclusively. And yeah, i just checked the stats: you were right - only a few mechs can fly faster than they can walk. with Berzerker having the most ridiculous numbers: 19m/s on the ground vs 25m/s in the air - that's equal to or a bit higher than boosting speed of Grenadier, Rocketeer and Brawler. So basically, you can't outrun the Zerker in these mechs.

 

Yea, zerker is definitely an outlier in that regard. The bruiser and the rocketeer have bigger hitboxes and easier to hit so i guess that is why people aren't compaining about them that much.

[deidarall]

 

Yes, gameplay was meant to have aerial combat.  The video shows it.  Everything was toned down for some ungodly reason though.  Probably because we had a fair amount of MW players crying for HAWKEN to be more like MW.  The game was dumbed down from what the video portrays.

 

 

 

 

What the-? Look The video shows a long ded build of the game from pre-alpha nothing less nor more.  It was removed and then they flip flopped and put it back, don't normalize your argument by saying it was intended to be some way, cause really that has no bearing.  And really at the same time I would rather this game not feel like COD, or planet side 2 jetpacking, I liked the tango dueling from old hawken.But I also would rather it not be MW as well.

 

Air combat is not "necessary".  It is just fun.  We could have a very boring, slow, MW game.  But then, many of us wouldn't bother wasting our time in the game any more.

 

You played 12/12/12 like builds hawken was never slow then. Why the heck are your randomly bring this up like it applies to anything I  or anyone else is saying in regards to this issue?

 

Ok, so, I really hope that EU players can hit things in the air.  Like I said, based on what ya'll are saying... sounds like you have problems with that...  That's not me saying it, that's you guys saying it.

 

 

 

Ok wtf? You said ealier you did not disagree with me based on skill yet you bring this up over and over again to others. I don't get it. 

Edited by deidarall, 24 March 2015 - 07:45 AM.

[OmniStone]

I think making it mandatory on all mechs is fine, another movement option always opens up the possibilities in combat. It doesn't dumb down the game at all. Imo, the game used to be dumbed down before the air movement options(and still is in competitive play b/c most people don't use anything other then the orb build).

I don't understand how people come to the conclusion that AC dumbed down Hawken in the first place, or link that Wolfyftw video that shows how deep the combat used to be. In that vid, you do one of 4 things when you are stuck in that alleyway that S9 was stuck behind. You can either come out the right or left side, shoot, and then go back behind cover. Or, you can slowly float out the left or right side of the alleyway which would guarantee you easily being shot(so only 2 things that most people would choose to do).

If AC were mandatory, you could still do those 4 things, but you wouldn't be guaranteed to get hit while air dodging out either side. It doubles the amount of options you have in a situation like that, and makes reflexes as important as guessing what your opponent will do. If anything, that vid shows how bland your potential movement options used to be, imo.

I see most of the EU players want AC taken completely out of the game, while most NA players seem to want to either keep it or make it mandatory. I personally think this split is ping related, and that shooting at air dodging targets with 120+ ping is total bs. The chess match of being able to guess what you opponent was going to do(to make up for the crappy ping) was much more entertaining then shooting at somebody that was flying around in the air while they both had 120+ ping. Perhaps I am wrong, but this seems like a logical guess as to the split.

 

Edited by OmniStone, 24 March 2015 - 04:24 PM.

[deidarall]

I see most of the EU players want AC taken completely out of the game, while most NA players seem to want to either keep it or make it mandatory. I personally think this split is ping related, and that shooting at air dodging targets with 120+ ping is total bs. The chess match of being able to guess what you opponent was going to do(to make up for the crappy ping) was much more entertaining then shooting at somebody that was flying around in the air while they both had 120+ ping. Perhaps I am wrong, but this seems like a logical guess as to the split.

 

 

 

I am usa, and like I have good ping when I play, and idk. 

 

 

This guy looked pretty hard to hit to me, is also again not just how hard the target is to hit always, it is how simply they can keep distance and avoid a ground work based duel. I will make a follow up vid to this, but I think you can understand how it effects how distance pacing was changed. 

 

I don't understand how people come to the conclusion that AC dumbed down Hawken in the first place, or link that Wolfyftw video that shows how deep the combat used to be. In that vid, you do one of 4 things when you are stuck in that alleyway that S9 was stuck behind. You can either come out the right or left side, shoot, and then go back behind cover. Or, you can slowly float out the left or right side of the alleyway which would guarantee you easily being shot(so only 2 things that most people would choose to do).

 

 

It dumbed down how simple it is to keep distance, and do effective damage with sustained weps.  With wind walking you have the power to avoid ground work duels. A tight and polished part of the game, and while the movements themselves are simple how you chain and use those moved is where the skill was in. 

 

If AC were mandatory, you could still do those 4 things, but you wouldn't be guaranteed to get hit while air dodging out either side. It doubles the amount of options you have in a situation like that, and makes reflexes as important as guessing what your opponent will do. If anything, that vid shows how bland your potential movement options used to be, imo.

 

 

Gameplay is bland now, cause really the wind walking stuff has messed with pacing, and is used as a go to as a simple and effective way to keep and control distance. Doubling the options sounds great, but only if the new options make sense on the context of the old ones, and in my view the air gameplay took too much away from the ground work duel, again a air player can quite simply avoid a ground work duel for a long period if he wishes, while a ground player can not so simply avoid a air duel, along with that even when the air player runs out of fuel and lands he can still dodge and therefore is still able to fight. 

Edited by deidarall, 24 March 2015 - 07:32 PM.

[RedVan]

Just real quick before I head off for a bit, that video just reinforced skill being the issue for your gripe with AC...

[Nept]

I am usa, and like I have good ping when I play, and idk. 

 

 

This guy looked pretty hard to hit to me, is also again not just how hard the target is to hit always, it is how simply they can keep distance and avoid a ground work based duel. I will make a follow up vid to this, but I think you can understand how it effects how distance pacing was changed. 

That guy did not look pretty hard to hit to me.  It looked like you just missed.  A lot.

[Xacius]

[deidarall]

That guy did not look pretty hard to hit to me.  It looked like you just missed.  A lot.

 

 

 

 

Cause he was hard to hit. :P I would have hit if he was just so simple to hit lol. Like if it was so simple to hit all the time he would not have used it. It is at least fairly hard to hit.

[deidarall]

Can I hit on you nept? 

 

Edited by deidarall, 24 March 2015 - 09:18 PM.

[ticklemyiguana]

As a grenadier main, the air dodge was a brutal addition. I can still win but i need to be in a preferable location to do so. which as the maps became much more open i became obsolete that much quicker and had to find an alternate mech to master.

I'm not getting back into this thread, because well... I mean look at it. The argument is really just over the feel of the game. (The argument that AC is hard to hit and aerial play is OP is actually asinine, but I can completely accept the fact that some people think it throws of the feel of the game.)

 

But this player has a solvable issue.

 

I love playing gren, and you can most certainly use it against aerial targets, even with the Rev-GL, even if they have the AC.

 

Now, positioning is key. Optimal range for a complete engagement with the gren is just a little bit further than the range at which you'd be damaging yourself with your own explosions. If you're much further, then you need very precise aim and prediction abilities.

You also want to maintain positions around walls and choke points.

 

If by chance, you find yourself out of that sort of position, you can still hit most aerial targets with ease. For the grenade launcher, it's simple. Just predict where your opponent will be, and detonate. You can fire 1 GL shot for every 3 Rev-GLs. (Haven't tested that, that's just what I'm recalling from many hours of gameplay, never particularly taking note of it.)

 

For the Rev-GL, should you lack the appropriate positioning, you want to be firing at the ground, attempting to draw a V with your projectile, from your launcher to the enemy. Most mechs aren't flying around your head that high, and if you know you can't hit them directly, you can absolutely damage them with the splash.

 

If you are in position, ie: around a set of walls or choke points, you can do the same thing, except by aiming about 75% to 90% of the way up the wall to your target, depending on the range, and shooting. It's very intuitive after a bit of practice, but if you've never done it before, perhaps the numbers will help you. Generally speaking, with this technique you will wind up with a much higher DPS than trying to hit the target directly and missing every other shot.

 

I still 100% advise practicing hitting your targets directly, as you will gain maximum damage, but no one wants every game to be practice, sometimes we just want to win. And in those cases, this is a must for the accuracy disinclined of us.

 

 

 

Also, the same technique can be easily used for ground targets, as a quickly juking scout is no peach to hit either.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 24 March 2015 - 09:57 PM.

[OdinTheWise]

i think its a bit early to be cry over the AC and things of that nature yet, i will say that a vocal minority are arguing about this. there is a good chance that most of the players just dont give a fuzzy bunny. i am surprised no one has started a poll yet to see about who actually cares enough to express their opinion.

on that note, whether you are pro or anti AC, its basically just an opinion so get over it. 

 

 

AC is a fun mechanic, that is all the reason there should be to have it.

this is a game, not life or death. things should be evaluated on the bases of funness. 

[RedVan]

 

 

 

Cause he was hard to hit. :P I would have hit if he was just so simple to hit lol. Like if it was so simple to hit all the time he would not have used it. It is at least fairly hard to hit.

 

 

So you admit it's a skill issue with you, that's good :)

 

Now I'm going to pick apart your video:

 

  Aiming up and down vs left and right is not harder.  If it is, it's so insignificant, you really shouldn't mention it.

 

The Duel

 

"He can do consistent damage to me while pushing forward"

You flat out missed a mech flying straight towards you.  No excuse for that.  He wasn't even dodging.  His relative velocity was zero.  He was not high enough to be out of range.

 

Where is the rest of your team?  I see you vs an A and a C.  You're likely not going to win regardless of AC.  This I attribute to needing to improve teamwork and situational awareness.  Were they behind you?  If so, why were they not helping you?  Nobody is denying that a zerker with AC directly over you is a bad situation for a C class (not an impossible one, mind you).  Why are you in that situation in the first place?  Wait, I saw a friendly just off the left of your screen at 1:18ish.  Between the 2 of you, you should be able to have the zerker dead in no time.

 

When he gets close to you, you need to use that fancy "ground work" people keep goin on about to position yourself for the engagement.  Don't back up, that takes much more time than going to the side.  But it looks like the zerker backed off enough for that to not be a huge issue.  "He jumped up and I'm at the limit..."  dodge.  Get him back into the limit.  Good thing he came right back down within milliseconds though!  So that's a non factor...

 

The zerker dodges...  Yes.  Good on him.  There's no excuse to miss those shots.  His dodging gave you plenty of time between to land square on TOW shots w/o even remote det.  If the zerker were on the ground dodging, would you complain?  The little bit of splash damage you'd get off the ground from missed TOWs isn't going to help you enough to bother considering...  and you have a flak...  no splash at all there...  So the fact that he's dodging in the air vs on the ground is irrelevant. 

 

"I had to look at him and track him..."  Yes, pretty standard amongst any FPS game ;)

 

"It requires my undivided attention..."  Not if you stick with your team.  And if you're not with your team, what else are you going to give your attention to anyway?  The scenery?

 

"He didn't kill me, the scout on the ground did..."  Wait, you tellin me you were in a 3v1 situation as a brawler and you're complaining about dying?  You'd have died no matter what.  Teamwork...

 

"Other mechs use it..."  Yeah, I propose it be standard so that all mechs can use it to "keep proper distance" w/o sacrificing an internal slot.  I promise you, not all mechs will suddenly be zipping around like a zerker :)

 

"The fact that you have to pay so much attention to this guy..."  That's got nothing to do with AC.  That has to do with you being in a 3v1 situation that was hopeless to begin with.

 

"XY and Z plane..."  Don't argue that the Z plane is somehow harder.  It's not.  It's a standard skill that every FPS gamer should have.  If you don't, that just means you need to practice it.

 

"The sheer awkwardness..." (this is a hard point!).  It being awkward is an opinion.  I don't think it's awkward at all, ever.

 

"To put in in a nutshell, windwalking is bad because..."  ... because?  Because you don't understand how to counter it?  Good thing I just gave you many tips!  I am going to hit on your third point of it "taking up so much of a persons situational awareness" though...  That is merely you needing to practice SA more.  Nothing more to it.  I watched it and thought, from the very beginning, were I in that situation:  "Why am I not with the rest of my team?  I am most likely going to die due to my terrible positioning in relation to my team, considering it's 2v1 (which, looking back appears to have been a 3v1... why are the enemies blue?  Threw me off a little).  I am going to focus on ONE mech to take out with me!!!! Because spreading my damage amongst all 3 mechs will not help anything..."  I figured all that out within the first second of watching...  SA is a trained skill.

 

If you don't have the SA to deal with an air target and others, adjust your play style to be with your team so you don't have to be the only one dealing with it...

 

"Hurting the depth of the game..."  The current "ground work" people use is perfectly capable of dealing with the "air shenanigans".  I do it.  Many other players far better than I also do it.  The game originally portrayed "air shenanigans" in it, so it certainly was designed with that in mind.  Is the C class the worst at handling it?  No doubt.  Is it impossible?  No.  Is it even super hard?  No.

[DerMax]

i am surprised no one has started a poll yet to see about who actually cares enough to express their opinion.

U W0T M9?

 

http://hawken.mirror...air-compressor/

[Nept]

[Cross-posting this from the old forums, as well as from OmegaNull's thread (since parallel discussions seem to be occurring).]

 

I'm posting something I wrote for an AC thread from the previous forums.  Many of the players currently debating AC participated, and many of the same points were raised.  You can view the thread here, minus page "6" (which is unfortunate, for that's where the debate was quelched).  It's worthwhile noting the poll at the top, wherein ~42% felt that the internal should be made universal, ~24% felt that it should remain as is, ~19% felt that it should be limited to a particular mech, and ~15% felt another solution was in order.  In other words, at least 66% of respondents enjoyed AC's inclusion in the game while 19-34% [The 34% being an extremely generous allocation of the 15% who desired another solution] felt either that its presence should be limited or that another tweak should be found. 

 

As for context, the post was written as a counterargument to Deadman_Tim's assertion that AC provided an imbalance of benefits for the user.  One of his foundational assertions (and one which was incorrect) was that I was a predominantly A-class player who was arguing for my own benefit - hence my focus on that topic at the beginning of the post.  At the time, The_Vulong and DerMax - along with several Vodka People players - agreed with his assessment.  On these new forums, I've also seen denials by those same players that high ping plays into their dislike of the air compressor.  It's worth noting that on the previous forums, their high ping was made a factor in these discussions.  Aregorn, for instance, noted the high ping that the Russian players possessed.  It's likely, then, that ping played a part in their opinions.  Unfortunately, you can't balance for high ping - something that The_Vulong (amongst many others) noted.

 

Anyway, here's the post.  It obtained far more "likes" than anything else in the thread, and that it effectively ended the conversation.  If anyone's able to access page 6 of those archives, I'd greatly appreciate their help.

 

 

Since I've yet to see a decent analysis, I've decided to provide one:

 

Tim and company argue that AC detracts from the game's skill by providing players an �ultra-low risk� maneuverability option. There is also the possibility that they want AC removed for their own gain; that is, that its removal would benefit their performance by reducing Hawken's aiming requirements.

 

Leon and I are arguing that AC adds to the game's skill (and that its removal would lower the game's skill ceiling) by forcing players � including those players using proximity-heavy splash weaponry � to strike targets possessing expanded maneuverability options. In other words, AC decreases the system's redundancy and adds another uncertainty to the aiming process. We believe that Hawken should emphasize aiming ability alongside tactical positioning, and that AC actually contributes to tactical variation (and thus, to the skill ceiling). There is also the possibility that we want AC emphasized for our own gain; that is, that its presence provides us the means to circumvent tactical positioning. I think it's particularly telling, though, that both myself and Leon main classes that would only benefit from AC's removal � at least regarding ease-of-use. Tim's assertion that it doesn't matter whether I mean A-classes is quite incorrect: the fact that I don't main A-classes and yet want AC to remain a core gameplay component indicates my desire for a skill-based and challenging game.

 

An additional complication is the standard which was set by Hawken's earlier gameplay � gameplay which heavily favoured splash weaponry. Although splash weaponry within Hawken requires that shooters compensate for travel times, the most utilized secondary splash weapons are remote-detonation or auto-tracking � features that dramatically drop the skill ceiling. Additionally, Hawken's overwhelmingly powerful radar, when combined with remote detonation or mine-laying capabilities, dumbs down the game's aiming requirements dramatically. I would also argue that the type of gameplay it promoted (spamming splash from behind corners) could hardly be termed �skillful tactical positioning�. Finally, the projectile travel times have always been quite low, and the mechs have been largely ground-locked (or slooooowly floating through the air).

 

Given this context, it's unsurprising to see splash-heavy players upset by the aiming requirements introduced through the air compressor. Although the air dodges themselves are easily struck by strong players, there is certainly a learning curve involved. Players who believe that air dodging negatives projectile-based weapons, however, are deluding themselves. Strong players � my team amongst them � hit high percentages of their projectile shots (Heat Cannon, Saare Launcher, Redox, EOC, etc.) against air dodging opponents. They are also able to hit direct TOW's quite easily. AC requires from players a higher skill level than has typically been present in Hawken, so it's bound to ruffle some feathers. No, you no longer possess the overwhelming, easy-aim advantage you once did; but no, you're certainly not neutered � provided you learn to aim and position yourself a bit better.

 

It's also worth noting that pings too far above 110-120 render this type of aiming difficult. Dermax, for example, relied heavily upon splash and approximated aiming to fare decently with his 200 Ameri-ping. I can udnerstand why such players are dismayed by AC's presence, but I cannot have their inconvenience decrease the game's skill ceiling further. I would much rather see Hawken's server locations expanded so that they too might compete within their respective regions.

Edited by Nept, 25 March 2015 - 03:06 AM.

[DerMax]

I don't think implementing air-dodging as a built-in mechanic would take that many man-hours. We can ask the devs to do that and then check how the game plays. And then ask them to remove the thing and check how the game plays then. And compare. How 'bout that?

[RedVan]

I don't think implementing air-dodging as a built-in mechanic would take that many man-hours. We can ask the devs to do that and then check how the game plays. And then ask them to remove the thing and check how the game plays then. And compare. How 'bout that?

 

Well, we could just have a scrim where everyone equips AC on all mechs they use, and get nearly the same result :)  Everyone would be down one internal, as they'd need AC, but it would be fair across the board.

Edited by RedVan, 25 March 2015 - 03:25 AM.

[DerMax]

Well, we could just have a scrim where everyone equips AC on all mechs they use, and get nearly the same result :)  Everyone would be down one internal, as they'd need AC, but it would be fair across the board.

Yes! xD

 

But that needs to be done for like a couple dozen of games and not just one game, to get a better idea.

[TheVulong]

I don't think implementing air-dodging as a built-in mechanic would take that many man-hours. We can ask the devs to do that and then check how the game plays. And then ask them to remove the thing and check how the game plays then. And compare. How 'bout that?

Sounds like a lot of trouble for the devs. That said, i'm not against implementing air dodge as a universal feature and leaving it at that but i definitely want it to be nerfed in the way that would make the overall combat more grounded while leaving that extra movement option for all those who enjoys it.

 

 

As for context, the post was written as a counterargument to Deadman_Tim's assertion that AC provided an imbalance of benefits for the user.  One of his foundational assertions (and one which was incorrect) was that I was a predominantly A-class player who was arguing for my own benefit - hence my focus on that topic at the beginning of the post.  At the time, The_Vulong and DerMax - along with several Vodka People players - agreed with his assessment.  On these new forums, I've also seen denials by those same players that high ping plays into their dislike of the air compressor.  It's worth noting that on the previous forums, their high ping was made a factor in these discussions.  Aregon, for instance, noted the high ping that the Russian players possessed.  It's likely, then, that ping played a part in their opinions.  Unfortunately, you can't balance for high ping - something that The_Vulong (amongst many others) noted.

Just a quick note: EU side now have some new servers located in Germany and my average ping on those is around 60-70ms and even less for some of the other russians. So at this point i admit that the high ping argument is no longer relevant(at least for me).

[DerMax]

I think the bottom line is, we need to compromise. Everyone has their own vision of The Perfect Hawken, but it's impossible to cater for everyone. So I agree with Vulong here � we can make it a built-in mechanic but also nerf it a bit (and there are many ways to do that).

Edited by DerMax, 25 March 2015 - 04:02 AM.

[RedVan]

I think the bottom line is, we need to compromise. Everyone has their own vision of The Perfect Hawken, but it's impossible to cater for everyone. So I agree with Vulong here � we can make it a built-in mechanic but also nerf it a bit (and there are many ways to do that).

 

The thing I'm most interested in, in regards to AC, is the ability for all mechs to dodge in the air.  If the whole "wind walking" thing isn't included as standard for all mechs, I am 100% ok with that.  If that is kept as an internal, but air dodge is standard for all, that's really all I'm asking for.

 

Trust me, I am 100% with you in not wanting all mechs to be flying around like the zerker with AC :)  That has never been my intention in asking for "Air Dodge for All!"

Edited by RedVan, 25 March 2015 - 04:16 AM.

[HugeGuts]

I say no to flying in general. Map design doesn't allow for cover-to-cover fighting in the air like it does on the ground. Trying to manipulate the radar in combination with cover to keep an opponent guessing your position was something separating Hawken from other FPS's. Flying took that away, since now you can just fly over cover and not have to play your opponent's guessing game.

[RedVan]

I say no to flying in general. Map design doesn't allow for cover-to-cover fighting in the air like it does on the ground. Trying to manipulate the radar in combination with cover to keep an opponent guessing your position was something separating Hawken from other FPS's. Flying took that away, since now you can just fly over cover and not have to play your opponent's guessing game.

 

But flying over cover puts you at an enormous disadvantage...  So great a disadvantage, you'll most likely be dead vs a competent team.  This is what has kept the majority of players on the ground for so long.  Allowing all mechs to at least dodge while in the air would simply make flying somewhat viable.

Edited by RedVan, 25 March 2015 - 04:52 AM.

[Grollourdo]

I think the bottom line is, we need to compromise. Everyone has their own vision of The Perfect Hawken, but it's impossible to cater for everyone. So I agree with Vulong here � we can make it a built-in mechanic but also nerf it a bit (and there are many ways to do that).

No aww come on guys lol 

 

shtap it 

 

why u wanna make everyone more powerful and all cuz look 

 

the way i see it u all want ac built in cuz u all want to put more internals or something i mean come on

 

why not keep it as internal?    it  takes space right? well thats the price to pay to have an air advantage on others 

 

 

 

this is like if i wanted to say  : ADVANCED RECONTRUCTOR FOR EVERYONE! XD      

 

the advanced recontructor takes place but thats the price to pay to have a healing advantage over others no? 

 

 

people dont ALL use AC, 

 

personally ok on some builds i use it like on my assult and my future XD technician 

 

 

i wouldnt use it on my predator cuz i dont think its use ful on it i mean come on hes a stealth mech that will take his steal off if he boosts or something, so i dont realy need it there

 

i would love to have an advanced reconstructor on built in for all mechs (benefits my predator cuz i use it for him)   but that will take away its specialness no?

 

u ll allways have a lil advantage on other people but u ll allways have a down  fall too 

 

thats my personal vision of hawken,    advantage for a downfall XD

 

etc idk if i put down all my ideas yet but atm i think i did XD so yeah 

 

 

grollll XD

[Deadmen_Tim]

I think the bottom line is, we need to compromise. Everyone has their own vision of The Perfect Hawken, but it's impossible to cater for everyone. So I agree with Vulong here � we can make it a built-in mechanic but also nerf it a bit (and there are many ways to do that).

There is also one more way to let everyone enjoy "their" Hawken. If one could ban all failed Hawken nonsense like tech, pred, inci and AC on the server i think some of the people who left dumbed down Hawken will enjoy the game once again. Custom servers like in every normal game guys.

 

[DerMax]

There is also one more way to let everyone enjoy "their" Hawken. If one could ban all failed Hawken nonsense like tech, pred, inci and AC on the server i think some of the people who left dumbed down Hawken will enjoy the game once again. Custom servers like in every normal game guys.

Great idea as well.

[Houruck]

There is also one more way to let everyone enjoy "their" Hawken. If one could ban all failed Hawken nonsense like tech, pred, inci and AC on the server i think some of the people who left dumbed down Hawken will enjoy the game once again. Custom servers like in every normal game guys.

I would love to have this!
https://community.pl...estions/?p=5000