202 replies to this topic

[TheVulong]

Any time you add to movement mechanics, you increase the skill ceiling.  Not only are there more movement mechanics for people to master, but also people must master hitting them.

If anything, the skill ceiling was tilted to the side rather than raised because i barely see anyone using the movement system to it's full potential while in battle: people either hang in the air or stay on the ground(but mostly hang in the air).

[deidarall]

• Is it fun to use?
• Is it fun to play against?*
• Should it be made universally available (as an internal)?
• Should it be incorporated into the movement of all mechs by default?
• Should it be removed?

 

Yes, and no, while it feels alright from a traditional shooter standpoint  it is not as robust or direct feeling as the ground work gameplay adding to the float-y feeling of hawken. 

 

Not really, it leads to more awkward situations for me where people are over me in my heavy mechs, it makes the battle flow in this awkward manner as I use ground work to try and beat his wind work, the two movement systems simply do not mesh that well in my view when players set up to duel. One is focused on direct choices that are hair pin, and the other deals with a more flowing constant stream of sustained gameplay, I think quite simply these do not mesh so well overall in hawken.   

 

I think it should be limited personally along with the air dynamics in general.

 

No. I think it is a idea that ignores current balance and gameplay feeling trends  and instead jumps off the cliff.

 

Removed? I am not sure, more more limited in some manner at least.

[deidarall]

The inclusion of air dodge simply adds another aspect of skill.

 

 

 

Well and it changes how the game-play feels. 

 

Remember the old days before air dodge, burst was king?  Now you're saying heat, rev, eoc... bursty weapons... have more trouble.  Looks to me like air dodge helped make sustained weapons more viable...  Naturally, some weapons wont be as good as others in certain situations.  That's perfectly acceptable.  If all weapons were good in all situations, we'd just have 1 weapon.

 

Yes, and while it was unbalenced the game felt more interesting in my view. It did make them more viable, sure, but that does not mean the air work stuff was the best or most reasonable way to do it.  

 

"Just because you CAN do something does not mean it is worth while"  Actually... with all of the weapons you mentioned, direct hits are far more worth while than splash.  If you're getting direct hits (which you should be going for), it doesn't matter whether they're in the air or on the ground.  While on the ground it is, however, harder to land direct hits, as mechs have more maneuverability...  Splash is simply added to some weapons to make them forgiving, as they generally have lower ROFs.  Saying a weapon has splash, therefore mechs were meant to be on the ground, is simply untrue.

 

Your arguments revolve around weapons and their abilities to handle an air dodging mech.  I've already shown that nearly all weapons can handle it quite well.  I've also shown that allowing all mechs to air dodge will NOT make the entire game one of mechs flying around like jets everywhere as some seem to think.  Essentially, your arguments are invalid.  If you wish to say "I just dont like air dodge because it looks goofy", fine, that's simply your opinion.  But don't try to disguise that with some weaponry arguments.

 

 

 

Um no, what you have done is basically presume to tell people how to play, at every turn and call out skill as reasoning as to why we disagree with you. Look direct hits are wonderful, and while I rather do like going for them, consistent damage is king, if your pretty much always forcing me to deal with air work in my Rev-GL gren I am losing out on a aspect advantage to that weapon on a near constant manner.  And again I am not saying splash is directly related to my reasoning so much as that these weps are pretty much ground work weps. EOC leaves mines on the ground, Rev, bonces on the ground, HEAT is going to corner play off the ground, these are gameplay aspects related to the ground that these weps were made to take advantage of.  These allow for consistent  damage, even when your not getting direct hits to make up for a lack of hitscan, cause unlike a hit scan these weps can all be dodged already, not even accounting for wind work. 

 

Also really my view on the matter is how it makes gameplay feel in my view less fun, while introducing balance issues. Look certain mechs can have the air stuff as long as it is improved to be less janky in my view, I like the idea of certain mechs just being able to use air, but I hate how it is now with all mechs being better at floating than before. It was a bit thoughtless and made the game sort of more uniformly feel different in a way that was less direct and less fun. And your ready to jump off the deep end of that. 

[Grollourdo]

OK GUYS . I think that if u want air dodging then BUY AN AIR COMPRESSOR! wow if u no Wang the air compressor DONT BUY THE AIR COMPRESSOR . this is an internal, people chose or chose not to integrate it in their play style . isn't hawken based around that? Isn't it fun to acctually build ur own playstyle and then see that u can destroy mechs with it? Air compressors will be there for people who wanna use it the other items can also be used for people who don't wanna use it .

[deidarall]

OK GUYS . I think that if u want air dodging then BUY AN AIR COMPRESSOR! wow if u no Wang the air compressor DONT BUY THE AIR COMPRESSOR . this is an internal, people chose or chose not to integrate it in their play style . isn't hawken based around that? Isn't it fun to acctually build ur own playstyle and then see that u can destroy mechs with it? Air compressors will be there for people who wanna use it the other items can also be used for people who don't wanna use it . 

 

 

It is fun to build your own play style. But the play style has to make sense from a gameplay perspective and not compromise the game with a system that makes gameplay feel radically different with a floating gameplay replacing a more direct not floaty gameplay, it quite simply is not as fun to fight and makes the game feel different to a level I disagree with, and that is the issue I have. It is not like other things where others choices are not effecting the way the game plays for me, it effects me in quite a defining manner. 

[RedVan]

Here is the main Idea,

Redvan with air compressor will dominate redvan without air compressor

Hrono with air compressor will dominate hrono without air compressor
 

 

Not necessarily true.  It simply makes the battles more interesting.  One should play to the strengths of their mech.

 

 

Well and it changes how the game-play feels. 

 

Yes, and while it was unbalenced the game felt more interesting in my view. It did make them more viable, sure, but that does not mean the air work stuff was the best or most reasonable way to do it.  

 

 

 

Um no, what you have done is basically presume to tell people how to play, at every turn and call out skill as reasoning as to why we disagree with you. Look direct hits are wonderful, and while I rather do like going for them, consistent damage is king, if your pretty much always forcing me to deal with air work in my Rev-GL gren I am losing out on a aspect advantage to that weapon on a near constant manner.  And again I am not saying splash is directly related to my reasoning so much as that these weps are pretty much ground work weps. EOC leaves mines on the ground, Rev, bonces on the ground, HEAT is going to corner play off the ground, these are gameplay aspects related to the ground that these weps were made to take advantage of.  These allow for consistent  damage, even when your not getting direct hits to make up for a lack of hitscan, cause unlike a hit scan these weps can all be dodged already, not even accounting for wind work. 

 

Also really my view on the matter is how it makes gameplay feel in my view less fun, while introducing balance issues. Look certain mechs can have the air stuff as long as it is improved to be less janky in my view, I like the idea of certain mechs just being able to use air, but I hate how it is now with all mechs being better at floating than before. It was a bit thoughtless and made the game sort of more uniformly feel different in a way that was less direct and less fun. And your ready to jump off the deep end of that. 

 

I never said skill was why you disagree with me... you all said that when you complained about zerkers being hard to hit...

 

You are look at this through a straw.  You keep talking about the Rev_GL quite specifically, as from the sounds of it, you main that class.  It's ok if it's a little harder to hit mid airs with some weapons and not others.  Again, consider Tribes:  The fusion mortar wasn't designed as a mid air weapon!  It was designed as a massive splash weapon.  Guess what:  What goes up, must come down.  Rev-GL has a specific role to play, as do other "ground work" weapons.  Like I said before, and will continue to say until you understand, the majority of the game is spent on the ground, even if all players have AC on their mech.  Rev-GL is great for bouncing around corners, do you really think an enemy is going to just be hovering there behind the corner?  No, they won't be.  No mech is even capable of that.

 

Every weapon with "ground work" roles will still function just as well.  I guarantee it.  EOC leaves mines on the ground, mechs land on the ground.  Rev_GL bounces around corners, mechs go behind corners to rejuvenate energy.  Heat splashes corners, same deal, mechs try to restore energy behind corners.  The advantages these weapons have will still be advantages.

 

All mechs having AC will NOT make it so that all mechs are just flying around like jets.  That's stupid.  Nobody is asking for that.

 

If you dislike all mechs having AC just because you dislike it, that's fine... but quit making these ridiculous weapon arguments.
 

Now, perhaps you missed the video I posted before, so I'm going to post it again:

 

 

 

Air maneuverability was much greater way back when...  That's the way the game was originally designed.  That's what drew many people to the game, myself included.  If you want a clunky slow mech game, play Mech Warrior.  Even the argument that mechs "floating around" makes the feel like paper is a bit ridiculous.  Dodging on the ground doesn't make them feel like that?  The sudden boosting acceleration doesn't make them feel like that?  But oh, as soon as they take to the air, omg, it's like paper!

[Sylhiri]

I heard someone mentioned EOC. This is gunna be good.

 

*reads*

[Houruck]

I heard someone mentioned EOC. This is gunna be good.
 
*reads*

You said that like it is still OP (or even remotely useful).

[Silverfire]

I use Rev GL a lot (I main Grenadier) and with enough practice, I can semi-regularly hit flying mechs even with AC. I might miss the first or second shot if they mid air dodge, but I can be sure the 3rd or 4th shot will hit and I have enough health to absorb a few hits. It's not impossible.

EdIT:
I will say it is quite difficult and took me a while to adjust to the AC and even now I'm not always consistent but it is possible to use the Rev GL against flying mechs. You still have to wait until you're in the right position to get maximum viability but I do quite enjoy taking down flying mechs with a RevGL. It's not meant to go against flying mechs really, but that doesn't mean it can't. There's still the regular GL which still has decent splash damage and I can nail the GL consistently at least.

Edited by Silverfire, 23 March 2015 - 07:14 AM.

[DerMax]

It simply makes the battles more interesting.

[DerMax]

Where's AJK when you need him?

[defekt]

Someone correct my potentially faulty memory on this one (it has been a while): is the aiming deflection for shooting up shallower than it is for shooting down whilst floating?

[Sylhiri]

You said that like it is still OP (or even remotely useful).

 

It's not competitively useful at all as it's too slow to fit into the new meta, hell the majority of the player base I've come against uses sustain weapons these days. I may see a Flak Cannon now and then or a sniper weapon but it's mostly AR or SMC (on all mechs that can wield them, even the fking Infiltrator). I'm actually really sick of seeing sustain weapons these days, I would like some variety.

 

Honestly the side for AC generally seems to avoid discussing the map situation like the plague and I believe it is the biggest reason that sustain has an advantage over burst. 

[ticklemyiguana]

What this boils down to is that a fair amount of people want to see Hawken become something it's not. The problem is, both factions think that I'm talking about them.

Hawken is what it is, air maneuverability and all. The only mech you should consistently have trouble hitting in the air is the berserker, and I really think that's exactly the case. Berserker is damn annoying. But removing an internal that on every other mech is just an ability to dodge while airborne is not an appropriate fix. AC is one of the few internals done right, and I think it's a silly idea to remove it. It offers greater versatility of play style with a significant trade off. The amount of fuel used is quite high, and if you're makng the decision to take the fight to the air, then by using it you are forcing yourself to fully commit to the fight, as you are de facto using more fuel per second than your ground based opponent.

Not only is AC only close to resembling a state of overpoweredness on a single mech, it's not even the current meta anymore. Hrono made a post earlier that says "redvan with AC beats redvan without AC."

I used to race cars. Now, as someone who is 6'2 and 220 pounds, I faced something very similar. All things equal, I would lose to a lighter opponent. However, this isn't that. Hestoned without AC is going to beat hestoned with AC every time. This is because it's not a flat addition to your mech. It's a trade off for other internals, and other internals can be used more effectively in the current meta.

I DO think that the AC is more useful than many internals on many mechs, however that's no reason to take AC out. It's a reason to set a goal and say "every internal should be this useful. Every internal should be this fun to play with."

It's unfortunate that I have to type all of that just to answer the original question, which inarguably equalizes the field of play by giving it to everyone. I disagree with giving it to everyone and think it should remain as an internanal. I do NOT think people should have to wait until level 25 for AC, or really any other item. I MIGHT like to see the current leveling system replaced with an achievement system in reverse, like in order to unlock AC, you have to die at least 50 times while attacking enemies in the air.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 23 March 2015 - 07:41 AM.

[defekt]

What this boils down to is that a fair amount of people want to see Hawken become something it's not. The problem is, both factions think that I'm talking about them.

What a lovely, neatly encapsulating turn of phrase, sir.  Here, have a cookie and do carry on. 

[deidarall]

Hawken is what it is, air maneuverability and all. The only mech you should consistently have trouble hitting in the air is the berserker, and I really think that's exactly the case. Berserker is damn annoying. But removing an internal that on every other mech is just an ability to dodge while airborne is not an appropriate fix. AC is one of the few internals done right, and I think it's a silly idea to remove it. It offers greater versatility of play style with a significant trade off. The amount of fuel used is quite high, and if you're makng the decision to take the fight to the air, then by using it you are forcing yourself to fully commit to the fight, as you are de facto using more fuel per second than your ground based opponent. 

Not only is AC only close to resembling a state of overpoweredness on a single mech, it's not even the current meta anymore. Hrono made a post earlier that says "redvan with AC beats redvan without AC."

 

 

Eh personally I do not like the air stuff cause it hurts the feel of the game, it just does not feel tight like it used to in my view. Look, in my view it does not matter if something is balanced or not when the game-play feels bleh due to it. It just is not fun to fight like the old ground work did, and I would argue that the old movement system was complex and good. So what was the logic in tacking on to it?

 

I mean what other internal or changes to the game made it so awkward to play as the air system? I just think the whole air system in general needs to be toned down, and the foot work which is simple and fast and fun in my view should be the focus. Cause that is what all mechs have, and if I remember that is what hooked me as a 12/12/12 player, not this wind working float gameplay. Also really the air stuff lets mechs decide distance in a simple way without losing damage, it is not a addition of complexity it is simply making a aspect of the game that used to be harder, more simple. 

Edited by deidarall, 23 March 2015 - 08:00 AM.

[ticklemyiguana]

Eh personally I do not like the air stuff cause it hurts the feel of the game, it just does not feel tight like it used to in my view. Look, in my view it does not matter if something is balanced or not when the game-play feels bleh due to it. It just is not fun to fight like the old ground work did, and I would argue that the old movement system was complex and good. So what was the logic in tacking on to it?
 
I mean what other internal or changes to the game made it so awkward to play as the air system? I just think the whole air system in general needs to be toned down, and the foot work which is simple and fast and fun in my view should be the focus. Cause that is what all mechs have, and if I remember that is what hooked me as a 12/12/12 player, not this wind working float gameplay. Also really the air stuff lets mechs decide distance in a simple way without losing damage, it is not a addition of complexity it is simply making a aspect of the game that used to be harder, more simple.

As much as I wish things were as simple as "I feel this way, so that's how it should be done" (not attacking, it would indeed be nice if there was just some sort of intuitive consent to everything, but that's a much deeper philosophical issue) other people feel differently.

The baseline is that Hawken was indeed always intended to be played with an aerial dimension, and in order to make an aerial play style viable in this game, it requires additional mechanics.

What is a fact is that without the AC, an aerial play style is simply not viable. I think this is unfortunate, and I would argue for the creation of new internals that can make such a playtsyle more dynamic. Again, put a pin in the berserker for these discussions. It's a clear outlier and I'd expect at some point it will be nerfed.

Internals for both air and ground play need more creativity. Don't remove the single internal that actually adds to the game.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 23 March 2015 - 10:23 AM.

[deidarall]

The baseline is that Hawken was indeed always intended to be played with an aerial dimension, and in order to make an aerial play style viable in this game, it requires additional mechanics. 

 

 

 

No? I mean, sure people make that claim with the old hawken videos and such. But in the 12/12/12 era there was no air gameplay like that. Look objectively it lets players keep distance in a much more simple way. Does that really add to the game? I think it hurts the game from the tight feeling of the old duels pre-ascending.

 

What is a fact is that without the AC, an aerial play style is simply not viable. I think this is unfortunate, and I would argue for the creation of new internals that can make such a playtsyle more dynamic. Again, put a pin in the berserker for these discussions. It's a clear outlier and I'd expect at some point it will be nerfed.

 

 

Well to be honest that does not address whether or not the air system was needed, I would argue it was not. But regardless, I do not like how the air system works before even factoring in the internal. Again it makes keeping distance more simple, and from that point of view it adds less to the game. Add the internal and you have a easy way to keep distance and press while in air, and it is quite simply not fun to fight. As you admitted it is actually rather annoying. 

 

 

Internals for both air and ground play need more creativity. Don't remove the single internal that actually adds to the game. 

 

 

Thats the thing, it added to the game less than it took away, and the changes to air systems and the AC pretty much harmed the ground work gameplay that made the game so tight. Look at WolfyFTWs vids, and tell me that the air system was  needed. It just was not. 

 

I personally favor a middle road where only a few mechs can wind work, but even then momentum and other systems need to be added to make it less derpy, and ground work should be central. 

[Kopra]

Well certainly the splash aspect is lost if you hit them directly, but then it's lost if they're on the ground and you hit them directly as well.  This is not a balance issue at all.  Again, consider Tribes:  Majority of weapons were splash, but used just as effectively in the air.  If it were a balance issue, then Tribes was a terribly balanced game.

 

 

If you're talking about Tribes: Ascend, people don't really use Spinfusors midair except if it's out of being desperate or for showing off. The automatic weapons with stupidly fast projectile speeds and much much higher DPS against midair targets. Moreover, the movement in the air was much more predictable in Tribes than it is in Hawken because you had minimal air control, compared to Hawken.

[Amidatelion]

nope nope nope nevermind not getting involved, don't care, ignore this comment

Edited by Amidatelion, 23 March 2015 - 08:46 AM.

[deidarall]

nope nope nope nevermind not getting involved, don't care, ignore this comment

 

 

 

 

I love you, marry me.

 

[DerMax]

What this boils down to is that a fair amount of people want to see Hawken become something it's not. The problem is, both factions think that I'm talking about them.

Hawken is what it is, air maneuverability and all. The only mech you should consistently have trouble hitting in the air is the berserker, and I really think that's exactly the case. Berserker is damn annoying. But removing an internal that on every other mech is just an ability to dodge while airborne is not an appropriate fix. AC is one of the few internals done right, and I think it's a silly idea to remove it. It offers greater versatility of play style with a significant trade off. The amount of fuel used is quite high, and if you're makng the decision to take the fight to the air, then by using it you are forcing yourself to fully commit to the fight, as you are de facto using more fuel per second than your ground based opponent.

Not only is AC only close to resembling a state of overpoweredness on a single mech, it's not even the current meta anymore. Hrono made a post earlier that says "redvan with AC beats redvan without AC."

I used to race cars. Now, as someone who is 6'2 and 220 pounds, I faced something very similar. All things equal, I would lose to a lighter opponent. However, this isn't that. Hestoned without AC is going to beat hestoned with AC every time. This is because it's not a flat addition to your mech. It's a trade off for other internals, and other internals can be used more effectively in the current meta.

I DO think that the AC is more useful than many internals on many mechs, however that's no reason to take AC out. It's a reason to set a goal and say "every internal should be this useful. Every internal should be this fun to play with."

It's unfortunate that I have to type all of that just to answer the original question, which inarguably equalizes the field of play by giving it to everyone. I disagree with giving it to everyone and think it should remain as an internanal. I do NOT think people should have to wait until level 25 for AC, or really any other item. I MIGHT like to see the current leveling system replaced with an achievement system in reverse, like in order to unlock AC, you have to die at least 50 times while attacking enemies in the air.

What a nice comment. Many kudos (much wow).

 

I would, however, like to point out that by the time the devs arrive at the point when they have to decide what to do with the AC, the meta will probably be completely different, so there is a high chance that all our blabbering here doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.

Edited by DerMax, 23 March 2015 - 09:15 AM.

[IareDave]

Here is the main Idea,

Redvan with air compressor will dominate redvan without air compressor

Hrono with air compressor will dominate hrono without air compressor

I got one for you.

Dave with orb build will dominate dave with AC buil.

[IareDave]

 (delete)

Edited by IareDave, 23 March 2015 - 10:27 AM.

[Sylhiri]

I got one for you.

Dave with orb build will dominate dave with AC buil.

 

Sounds lame either way, lol

[DerMax]

I got one for you.

Dave with orb build will dominate dave with AC buil.

Yeah, but the orb build is broken — it won't survive for long.

[Hrono]

I got one for you.

Dave with orb build will dominate dave with AC buil.

Your orb build is not interfering in the core movement mechanics of the game and the game atmosphere itself.

And this should be discussed somewhere else.

[comic_sans]

EOC:  Takes a little skill, but certainly very usable vs AC.  I use it on my raider and have no problems hitting AC mechs

KLA projectile:  Probably the hardest thing to hit an AC mech with as it is slow ROF and no remote det.  But, certainly doable.

Rev-GL:  High ROF projectile... if you cannot figure out how to lead with a high ROF weapon, you've got bigger problems than an AC mech.

 

Ehhh I feel like this is wishful thinking and that you're missing the point with these in particular.  A few points!

 

The mechs that benefit most from AC, A classes, are also the mechs most endangered by these weapons; one volley from any of them (and probably the grenade that came with the rev-gl shot) and you'd be retreating for cover unless you don't know how to play an A class.  The AC is, like a good internal should be, an advantage you can choose to equip to your mech that benefits you situationally, or in other words, a thing you can have to make your glass cannon viable against a rude opponent.

 

The other point is that with any of those weapons, I'd either wait or plan for when they land.  This is in DM; in a larger game with a team, I'd probably do the same while making space from the AC user and attacking other targets in hopes of eliminating them to concentrate my team's fire more on the AC user if he's still alive and that hasn't already happened.

 

Also, use it until you're good with it and you'll probably notice that it's fun as hell.

Edited by comic_sans, 23 March 2015 - 11:20 AM.

[Hrono]

Ehhh I feel like this is wishful thinking and that you're missing the point with these in particular.  A few points!

 

The mechs that benefit most from AC, A classes,

No. Every B class benefits from it.

[shosca]

The only mech you should consistently have trouble hitting in the air is the berserker, and I really think that's exactly the case. Berserker is damn annoying.

 

Its because of the fact that its air speed is way way faster than its boost speed. Bruiser and rocketeer both has their air speed faster than their boost speed, but not to the same extent as the zerker. The zerker gets as much as 20% speed boost while in the air, bruiser and rocketeer gets 14% and 16% speed boost, while the rest gets a speed penalty for going up in the air.

 

Source: salty stats

Edited by shosca, 23 March 2015 - 11:55 AM.

[DerMax]

 

Also, use it until you're good with it and you'll probably notice that it's fun as hell.

The point is that it is not fun to play against.

[n3onfx]

Why not suggest making AC consume more fuel when dodging in the air? Or reducing the turn speed in the air? I'll be honest, I think AC should stay. I really like the fact that you can juke players that don't watch the radar enough by jumping just before poking out a corner, shooting while in the air and dodge back into the corner while still in the air.

 

It gives more depth to the game. A player that's careful about his radar will see his opponent get up on the radar just before clearing the corner and will not blast the ground but instead prepare to aim higher.

 

But I also think getting in the air should be have a higher disadvantage than right now. It should be much easier to punish someone by getting under them. Right now if someone has an AC and you get under them they can just dodge away and turn to blast you again. That's why something like reducing the turn cap in air would allow for more maneuvering under them but not hinder the mechanic of using AC to travel the terrain faster or dodge onto ledges or behind cover.

 

That's the point that seems the most interesting to me, keep the mechanics of AC that allow for more maneuverability but not make it such a big advantage in fights that happen in the open. If someone has an AC they get the advantages of it but give up the slot that could be used for the famous internal combos that allow to suck a ton of hp back from orbs. In the open the player that uses his internals to increase his survivability should have a greater advantage over the one that doesn't (even though the orb build should be toned down a bit as well, as it is right now it's ridiculous in some situations). So I'm for keeping AC but not making it default while tweaking the way mechs behave in the air.

 

I have a lot of respect for DerMax and Hrono (to cite two who comment here and with whom I've played with/against before) and they are much better than I am, but I disagree with the "most people on EU don't like AC" statement from DerMax. While I agree with the fact that input from the very top of players should count a bit more than the ones under them, I also think it's crucial that the opinion of the player base counts as well. And in my experience from the 2300ish mmr bracket very few players complain about it.

To make it short, in my opinion AC should stay as it increases the skill cap and depth of the game but air mechanics themselves should be tweaked to not give such an advantage to bashing the spacebar. It should have a greater risk and more thinking behind it.

 

edit: Also Berzerker. Zerkers are a problem right now in part due to the air mechanics. It's a good example of why too much air movement is not good on some mechs. There's nothing fun about a fighting a zerker that dodges everywhere in the air. Yes they can't do it for long, but with their ability they don't need to do it for long. In that scenario AC is not fun or fair, but is the problem really AC or the air mechanics applied to the Berzerker?

Edited by n3onfx, 23 March 2015 - 01:20 PM.

[Houruck]

I am still baffled that you guys dismiss our concerns stating that we can not play the game. I wish we could get over this and start a civilised conversation.
  

...Too bad there is no way we can play with each other on equal terms. :)

Someone reminded me that this already happened. RedVan had a couple of duels with Deadmen_Tim and they both had similar ping (Tim lives in Siberia). I only have this old clip (too bad we could not find the others that show Tim's flawless victory). VP wanted to play other high MMR US champions but they never showed up. :(
 
Edit: YouTube embedding still does not work. :(
https://youtu.be/iUARabQLiKU
 

I really like the fact that you can juke players that don't watch the radar enough by jumping just before poking out a corner, shooting while in the air and dodge back into the corner while still in the air.

I did that before AC was introduced, it was risky.

Edited by Houruck, 23 March 2015 - 02:07 PM.

[Durandal1707]

Not happening. We made sure yesterday when talking with CpnJosh that this will never happen.

Oh!... this is your game now?. Is it going to be "HAWKEN - specials snowflakes tells them what to and not do" edition?.

 

I really hope that the new devs doesnt take you guys serious, Jesus Christ I feared that s_hit like this was going to happend...

Edited by Durandal1707, 23 March 2015 - 03:48 PM.

[Xacius]

It's not about the Internal, it's about the action that it alows you to do(air dodge), has no risk/reward.

Can you name one other internal that allows you to do some different move in the game?

The fact is that it just gives you much more wide possibilities in movement, and as you guys already said, this game is all about movement.

 

 

It's not about the Internal, it's about the action that it alows you to do(air dodge), has no risk/reward.

Actually, the air dodge costs fuel, meaning that air-dodge spammers will run out of fuel considerably faster than if they were to simply hover.  Hovering also puts you on radar, as does dodging.   

 

Can you name one other internal that allows you to do some different move in the game?
The fact is that it just gives you much more wide possibilities in movement, and as you guys already said, this game is all about movement.

All the more reason to promote it as a universal feature, rather than a purchasable upgrade.  

Edited by Xacius, 23 March 2015 - 03:59 PM.

[CommonTroll]

If anything, it should be only available to light mechs, and even then, I don't like it. The less air manoeuvrability the game has, the better. I'm tired of getting flown over by everyone I fight, it's annoying and makes all the fights feel really stale. I'd even go so far as to say that Heavy mechs shouldn't even be able to boost into the air, only jump a short distance upwards, and glide off of high areas.

[Kopra]

 

Actually, the air dodge costs fuel, meaning that air-dodge spammers will run out of fuel considerably faster than if they were to simply hover.  Hovering also puts you on radar, as does dodging.   

 

The difference isn't that significant. A Berserker that only hovers, can remain in the air for 7 seconds. If you spam dodge in the air, that time is reduced to 6 seconds. 6 seconds is still a lot of time.

[Grollourdo]

.... Guys .... I've been reading all this and ima just comment on all the things I read .


Why are u guys complaing about how people just intergrating ac in their playstyle? U can do it too plus weapons, LEARN how to use your weapons against ac. Note that you too can go play in the air. Ac ONLY for A class???? NO! Wth man u wanna die buff heavys for even less mobility???? Yeah like they can't move enough . air combat is not hawken? First of all as another guy says, hawken is mostly played on the ground secondly, it ain't flying its hovering and dashing using compressed air to propuls u to the sides, what is so un hawken about that? Ac gives every mech an advantage? First no as I said it's the play style that gives the power thus the USE and the knowledge of how to use the ac is what that counts

Edit: accidently posted when I wasn't finished lol ok where was I?

Ac is used for ALL B classes ... Jesus man.... I mostly play my new predator cuz I love his game play and goes well with my playstyle and NO I do not use ac, for me I prefer to have ANOTHER benefit that will fit my play style as a pred instead of using the ac....


Ok now I forgot the other things I was gonna say so they might come back later feel free to brain storm on my ideas or point other things out

This is just my opinions

I didn't mention what I agreed with a lot cuz got there's just too much so I'm just gonna point out what I'm not agreeing with.

Groll

Edited by Grollourdo, 23 March 2015 - 04:43 PM.

[-Tj-]

Just dropping in my opinion: While I think the AC is just a tiny bit out of balance, I don't really mind it so much as an internal. Reason: it takes up 3 slots. I wouldn't really mind it taking up 4 slots, actually. I don't think it should be on every mech, though, just whoever wants to sacrifice the slots for that manueverability.

[deidarall]

Actually, the air dodge costs fuel, meaning that air-dodge spammers will run out of fuel considerably faster than if they were to simply hover.  Hovering also puts you on radar, as does dodging.   

 

I would argue the hovering, and air dynamics overall make keeping distance too simple, it allows players to really not commit to a fight and really in my view promotes a more awkward gameplay. The fact that hovering puts people on radar is a non-issue as people will over really hover while dueling and again the benefits of floating to control range far out weight these niggling weaknesses.  Also they have the ability to press evade and damage at the same time in a more fluid manner than a ground work player,  pretty much off setting the fact that they will have to fight for a short time, as they will do damage in a more constant manner, factor in the fact that normal ground work dodging is not fuel based, and it is not a big deal they hit the ground, and dodge around normally after the wind walking has given that player a edge.  

 

All the more reason to promote it as a universal feature, rather than a purchasable upgrade.  

 

It is usually a bad idea to make something like this universal, when we sit down and talk about it, and say that it should be universal cause it is so good and so central to gameplay, while it messes with the ground work side of things of a system that was solid pre-asending and still is, to put it bluntly no one had issues with the ground work system pre-ascend (Aside from a silly back dodge), but many have issues with the air work, that is not a tip off to make wind walking more universal, it sort of points to the opposite. 

 

Another way to put is is asking the question if there was anything wrong with the old ground work system? I think many people would agree it was pretty fun from a game-play point of view, and I feel like people were happy with the complexity of that system. I question this air dodge stuff when it is infringing on what I think was a pretty solid core of game-play movement. 

Edited by deidarall, 23 March 2015 - 07:51 PM.