202 replies to this topic

[RedVan]

Can we finally get air dodge as a standard feature across all mechs plz :)  More maneuverability options make the game more fun overall.

 

I remember the days of old when people were opposed to ANY air dodge.  It was introduced as an internal, and people realized how wrong they were with all the things they thought would happen ("OMG A class OP!"  "OMG C class wont be able to do ANYTHING" "OMG THIS OMG THAT").  Yeah... turns out they were all wrong.

 

Lets just take the next logical step now and make it standard so everyone can have it all the time.

[Elite_is_salty]

Too early for suggestions, lol

[DerMax]

Not happening. We made sure yesterday when talking with CpnJosh that this will never happen.

[Hrono]

Can we finally get air dodge as a standard feature across all mechs plz :)  More maneuverability options make the game more fun overall.

 

I remember the days of old when people were opposed to ANY air dodge.  It was introduced as an internal, and people realized how wrong they were with all the things they thought would happen ("OMG A class OP!"  "OMG C class wont be able to do ANYTHING" "OMG THIS OMG THAT").  Yeah... turns out they were all wrong.

 

Lets just take the next logical step now and make it standard so everyone can have it all the time.

 

 

Turned out?

Air related content oveall ruined the game for lots of players (air speed, air compressor, fuel consumption). We all know the lore, and mechs are made out of super light material, but this removed a lot of game mechanics and brought the “press space to win” technique.

Before this air introductions, you had the mech feeling now it feels more like an exoskeleton. You would press space to get some high advantage or to get on some building but you had the high risk of getting hit. Now, with the air compressor you have no risks, just benefits wich makes this internal unbalanced.

Why to stay on the ground when you just press space and get all the advantage ??

[bacon_avenger]

 

I remember the days of old when people were opposed to ANY air dodge.  It was introduced as an internal, and people realized how wrong they were with all the things they thought would happen ("OMG A class OP!"  "OMG C class wont be able to do ANYTHING" "OMG THIS OMG THAT").  Yeah... turns out they were all wrong.

Sorry man, but some of us are still against it and don't think we were or are wrong about it. 

[ZombieBiscuit]

?_?

Edited by Z?mbieBiscuit, 22 March 2015 - 04:20 AM.

[Houruck]

Making it default for every mech would make it even more of a mess.

[IareDave]

Why to stay on the ground when you just press space and get all the advantage ??

Because it drains your fuel at a much more rapid space and it is incredibly easier to hit a floating target than a grounded one. If anything A classes need this buff to be viable against the current C meta.

[Houruck]

Because it drains your fuel at a much more rapid space and it is incredibly easier to hit a floating target than a grounded one. If anything A classes need this buff to be viable against the current C meta.

Not if that target can dodge perfectly horizontally in air (using its back burners, totally defying gravity). Do you remember how many people wanted to boost backwards to get out of a sticky situation? This improved air control does exactly that. With some mechs you can fly backwards even faster than you could backpedal and shoot in the same time without penalties. Before your aim was really off in air, just remember the experimental reticle that actually showed where you aim instead of cementing the crosshair to the center of the screen.

[Leonhardt]

Not happening. We made sure yesterday when talking with CpnJosh that this will never happen.

 

Sweet Raptor Jeezus... already imposed your will upon the new devs, huh?

 

[comic_sans]

Not happening. We made sure yesterday when talking with CpnJosh that this will never happen.

 

I really am not a fan of this.

[n3onfx]

I'm the first one to rage against Berzerkers when they take to the skies and it becomes much harder to land projectile primaries like Heat or EOC while they float around and pepper you to death.

 

But while some hate this internal I hope it stays. Maybe it needs to be adjusted by making fuel consumption higher in the air but not everybody thinks it made the game worse. A class would be in trouble against the fatties if they removed it.

[defekt]

If I had the choice I'd remove Air Dodge from the game entirely.  Hawken suffered from a gradual moving away from that 'early days' sense of 'mech/machine' and Air Dodge only accelerated that shift.  (Mechs were buzzing around like bees and, frankly, it was getting a bit silly.)  I don't know what the new devs plans are but whether or not stuff like this lives or dies will depend on whether there is likely to be a shift (cf. return) in concept.

[Hrono]

Because it drains your fuel at a much more rapid space and it is incredibly easier to hit a floating target than a grounded one. If anything A classes need this buff to be viable against the current C meta.

 

Is it more easy to hit??

There are classes that move faster in the air that on the ground. So is it harder to hit a slow target or a fast target?

 

Is it easier to hit for weapons that rely on the ground like:
EOC, Heat cannon, Raider-KLA, REV-GL, EOC PREDATOR ?

And how about really popular weapons like:
TOW and especially the grenade launcher ?

 

The fuel consumption was reduced a lot in ascenion for "press space to win" and you have enough "flight" time to get the advantage.

C-meta? what C-meta? you are talking about an Incinerator with Air Compressor ?
 

[SparkyJJC]

Despite being a user of the air compressor myself, I really think it does remove the mech feel from the game. I don't agree with it being added to all mechs by default, rather I'd like to see it removed from the game in it's entirety. 

 

I don't mind the fact that the game went for an arena shooter feel while steering away from the heavy mech idea that it once had (though i prefer the heavy mech feel), but the game still has mechs in it. As an above post said, flying was made for getting to a vantage point with the added risk of being shot down easier, and now anyone who tries to fight a mech with an air compressor might as well stand still and wait to be killed: They're not going to be as useful on the ground trying to fight and they're certainly not going to be useful flying trying to fight without that air compressor.

Edited by SparkyJJC, 22 March 2015 - 05:50 AM.

[IareDave]

Is it more easy to hit??

There are classes that move faster in the air that on the ground. So is it harder to hit a slow target or a fast target?

Is it easier to hit for weapons that rely on the ground like:
EOC, Heat cannon, Raider-KLA, REV-GL, EOC PREDATOR ?

And how about really popular weapons like:
TOW and especially the grenade launcher ?

The fuel consumption was reduced a lot in ascenion for "press space to win" and you have enough "flight" time to get the advantage.

C-meta? what C-meta? you are talking about an Incinerator with Air Compressor ?

You're forgetting the fact that floating opens up an entirely new plane of attack - beneath the mech. When you're on the ground secondary fire such as the TOW and GL only have effectiveness when detted above the target, the sides, and in front, NOT beneath. Also boost speeds are faster than air speeds for a majority of the mechs(excluding zerk).

The only mechs that benefit in the air are fast moving ones such as As and especially the zerker. No, I'm not talking about Cs with air comp, The meta is C based for other reasons (HP).

Edited by IareDave, 22 March 2015 - 07:17 AM.

[Sylhiri]

The inclusion of increased air movement would have been a better addition if they didn't just shove it in the game half-assed. None of the maps have been made or changed with air movement in mind and most of the cover is negated because spacebar. Before air dodge there was a trade-off for gaining higher ground, the trade off could have been overly strict but it worked with the map design. A large portion of cover is about mech height and A classes feel the loss of cover far more then other classes, zerker just loves it's little height bonus because it's the fastest in the air and it has sustain weapons.

 

Until the rest of the game catches up with the increased air movement then it's a detriment.

[LarryLaffer]

I'm glad to see that people understand not only the balance issues with AC, but the aesthetic ones too. Because, you know, when I see, for example, the Brawler with AC equipped, I instantly imagine the big fat sumo guy who ate alot of pork and beans

 

The uniqueness of good old Hawken (pre-Ascension version) was in mix of arena fps style gameplay, but with classes, resource management instead of map control (well, there is some kind of map control in objective-based game modes) and that amasing feeling of piloting the big mech, even when you played an A-class mech . I admit it while I'am not a mech fan at all.

 

We all have adapted to this new META, someone more and someone less. We have learned how to play effective with and against AC and other stuff that rules this META now. But that unique feeling, that you can have while watching this video above, has gone

[DerMax]

Sweet Raptor Jeezus... already imposed your will upon the new devs, huh?

 

 

 

I really am not a fan of this.

 

 

Because it drains your fuel at a much more rapid space and it is incredibly easier to hit a floating target than a grounded one. If anything A classes need this buff to be viable against the current C meta.

 

You know what we should do? We should hop on TS and discuss this. Everyone knows that the American part of the community is mostly pro-AC and the European part is mostly anti-AC. So there should be a compromise that we could reach.

[comic_sans]

You're forgetting the fact that floating opens up an entirely new plane of attack - beneath the mech. When you're on the ground secondary fire such as the TOW and GL only have effectiveness when detted above the target, the sides, and in front, NOT beneath. Also boost speeds are faster than air speeds for a majority of the mechs(excluding zerk).

The only mechs that benefit in the air are fast moving ones such as As and especially the zerker. No, I'm not talking about Cs with air comp, The meta is C based for other reasons (HP).

 

Honestly, the main problem I have fighting airdodging mechs comes from my tow or grenade not detonating, which seems to happen more in crowded combat.

[Houruck]

Air dynamics and especially air compressor almost negates primary weapons like Heat Cannon and EOC Repeater not to mention items like HE charge (that has other issues as well, like the damage it does compared to how hard it is to land a shot).

[Fantus_Longhorn]

Sweet Raptor Jeezus... already imposed your will upon the new devs, huh?

 

No, I just think that came across in the wrong way; concerns were mentioned and things were discussed. The Devs, as always, will make whatever decision they feel is correct (I actually feel more confident that any decisions made will be well justified, rather than just thrown into the game like before).

[Nept]

I think this is another issue where you're going to see contrasting opinions depending on ability tier.  In general, people who find AC dodging mechs difficult to strike - and who don't enjoy the increased skill ceiling -  are going to complain about AC.  People who don't find them particularly difficult to strike, or who enjoy the increased skill ceiling, typically want the ability rendered ubiquitous.

 

Think I still have my post from the old forums.  Will have a quick look.

 

*Edited for clarity

Edited by Nept, 22 March 2015 - 02:23 PM.

[Houruck]

I think this is another issue where you're going to see contrasting opinions depending on ability tier.  In general, people who find AC dodging mechs difficult to strike are going to complain about AC.  People who don't find them particularly difficult to strike - and who enjoy the increased skill ceiling added by increased maneuverability options - will not.

 

Think I still have my post from the old forums.  Will have a quick look.

So you just called us noobs? :)

 

Someone had a signature on the old forum that said: HOLD SPACE BAR TO WIN

That was meant as a joke back then because it made you a big target.

Edited by Houruck, 22 March 2015 - 02:23 PM.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

The problem is that ground peeps don't really have anything to really punish those who use AC a lot.  It literally opens up a new dimension to fighting. Those without it are often left in the dust, and weapons like EOC and Heat Cannon can't do anything against AC when they are already hard weapons to use.  I'd personally remove it, despite the fact that I like it.

[Nept]

 

So you just called us noobs? :)

 

Someone had a signature on the old forum that said: HOLD SPACE BAR TO WIN

That was meant as a joke back then because it made you a big target.

 

"In general, people who find AC dodging mechs difficult to strike - and who don't enjoy the increased skill ceiling -  are going to complain about AC.  People who don't find them particularly difficult to strike, or who enjoy the increased skill ceiling, typically want the ability rendered ubiquitous."

 

If you want to call yourself a noob, knock yourself out.  I think that there's a difference between the term "noob" and the term "lower skill tier". 

 

As for the "doesn't feel like a mech game" argument, it's worth noting that there are myriad mech styles.  Even Heavy Gear 2 has strong/rapid jump jets; and that's before entering into the whole gundam/zone of the enders/whatever space.

[defekt]

I think this is another issue where you're going to see contrasting opinions depending on ability tier.  In general, people who find AC dodging mechs difficult to strike - and who don't enjoy the increased skill ceiling -  are going to complain about AC.  People who don't find them particularly difficult to strike, or who enjoy the increased skill ceiling, typically want the ability rendered ubiquitous.

 

Think I still have my post from the old forums.  Will have a quick look.

 

*Edited for clarity

 

 

So you just called us noobs? :)

 

Someone had a signature on the old forum that said: HOLD SPACE BAR TO WIN

That was meant as a joke back then because it made you a big target.

 

 

I didn't really notice this until someone mentioned it above: support for air dodge being somewhat divided by the pond with the US players broadly liking it and the EU players broadly not.  Can this really be true?  I doubt it's anything like as clear-cut as that and the explanation is more likely down to playstyles adopted from who you most frequently game with but nevertheless the observation is an intriguing one.

Edited by defekt, 22 March 2015 - 02:51 PM.

[Houruck]

If you want to call yourself a noob, knock yourself out.  I think that there's a difference between the term "noob" and the term "lower skill tier". 

Metacommunication does not always go through on forums, but as you can probably tell by the smiley face I was not really serious. But I am not talking about myself here, I think I can talk on behalf of some of the fiercest Russian players as well.

Edited by Houruck, 22 March 2015 - 02:50 PM.

[Deadmen_Tim]

the explanation is more likely down to playstyles adopted from who you most frequently game with but nevertheless the observation is an intriguing one.

Playstyle of elite people and lower skill tier people, to be exact.

 

P.S. Can't resist :D

[defekt]

Playstyle of elite people and lower skill tier people, to be exact.

 

P.S. Can't resist :D

You know what, now you've pointed that out it's bloody obvious.  If only someone had done that sooner.  ;)

[Nept]

 

Metacommunication does not always go through on forums, but as you can probably tell by the smiley face I was not really serious. But I am not talking about myself here, I think I can talk on behalf of some of the fiercest Russian players as well.

 

Honestly - and this isn't your fault, of course - but I've come to read the smiley face as passive aggression.

Edited by Nept, 22 March 2015 - 02:53 PM.

[TheVulong]

I think this is another issue where you're going to see contrasting opinions depending on ability tier.  In general, people who find AC dodging mechs difficult to strike - and who don't enjoy the increased skill ceiling -  are going to complain about AC.  People who don't find them particularly difficult to strike, or who enjoy the increased skill ceiling, typically want the ability rendered ubiquitous.

 

Think I still have my post from the old forums.  Will have a quick look.

 

*Edited for clarity

I'm not sure if i even should get into this for the 756th time but there was no raising the skill ceiling. If anything, the addition of AC and hyper air dynamics dumbed down the overall gameplay, because as many people mentioned: 

 

First, when it comes to A's and B's you fly faster than you walk and you can also backpedal in the air while keeping the ability to shoot which means that you can retreat at a high speed while firing back at the enemy - mechs that stay on the ground can't do that: they're either forced to fight or run. 

 

Second, for the most part the maps we have now are pretty open and there is plenty of air space with no obstacles around which leads us to the next issue: predictability and "reading" your opponent. While the mech that sticks to the ground has to pay attention to his surroundings in order to not get stuck on the wall and make it harder for the opponent to read it's next action, the mech that hangs in the air has no such problems - for the most part it is literally impossible to tell where the flying mech is gonna go since usually there is no terrain taken into account when dodgin in the air.

 

Third, when using projectile weapons(heat, eoc, rev-gl), that were designed for shooting ground targets exclusively and that rely heavily on having that ground under the opponent in order to be fully efficent are practically unable to compete with an airborn mech that has a hitscan weapon not only because all the projectile weapons are burst based and have poor DPS but also because they are not suited for the current flight-heavy meta. 

[hestoned]

the idea that AC doesnt "fit" into hawken is a useless argument anyway. its already there. its in hawken. it IS hawken now. so now what we have is a movement mechanic that not all mechs have access too. isnt that a little backwards? i also dont understand the dumbing down of the game argument. if anything it increases it. you better pay attention or that AC user is gunna fly over your head and slap your fuzzy bunny around. your job is to prevent that from happening by having good positioning. 90% of this game is just positioning anyway

[Z1Alpha]

I feel it should just remain a internal. It provides diversity in a game, and that is what this game is good at. Three different mech builds, all with internals and items of your choosing. Weapons to, for that matter.

[TheFrostnessMonster]

Oh man if I had a dollar for every thread like this in the old forums I would be retired right now.

[Merl61]

the idea that AC doesnt "fit" into hawken is a useless argument anyway. its already there. its in hawken. it IS hawken now. so now what we have is a movement mechanic that not all mechs have access too. isnt that a little backwards? i also dont understand the dumbing down of the game argument. if anything it increases it. you better pay attention or that AC user is gunna fly over your head and slap your fuzzy bunny around. your job is to prevent that from happening by having good positioning. 90% of this game is just positioning anyway

He speaks the truth. Like many of the things that people complain about, the ac isn't actually that good (when compared to other internal selections). That being said, I don't care if it becomes universal or if it stays an internal. It shouldn't be nerfed. It's already not super great.

Edited by Merl61, 22 March 2015 - 05:33 PM.

[talon70]

I don't like or use it and think the space is better used. To me it seems that it should be  universal because it feels like it should be connected to or an extension of the dodge action.

 

The AC should not move you faster than thrusting or dodging. It seems like it does. How about slowing them little flying fuzzy bunnys down a little bit.

Edited by talon70, 22 March 2015 - 05:53 PM.

[deidarall]

No, stop it, this is already a issue with many weapons not being balanced to deal with air dodge anyway. 

 

 

I imagine just trying to rev gl all these air dodge mechs. As they bop me on the head with TOWS

 

 

 

We all have adapted to this new META, someone more and someone less. We have learned how to play effective with and against AC and other stuff that rules this META now. But that unique feeling, that you can have while watching this video above, has gone 

 

 

 

The game feels more floaty and while I disagree it  has really changed in much in how much the meta has actually changed something happened to make it feel more spongy and less hard and direct... Part of the issue in my view is the endless dodge.

 

So I get where your coming form for sure.  I think the gameplay needs to be more focused on groundwork, as apposed to this air stuff floating around now. 

Edited by deidarall, 22 March 2015 - 06:15 PM.

[RedVan]

I'm not sure if i even should get into this for the 756th time but there was no raising the skill ceiling. If anything, the addition of AC and hyper air dynamics dumbed down the overall gameplay, because as many people mentioned: 

 

First, when it comes to A's and B's you fly faster than you walk and you can also backpedal in the air while keeping the ability to shoot which means that you can retreat at a high speed while firing back at the enemy - mechs that stay on the ground can't do that: they're either forced to fight or run. 

 

Second, for the most part the maps we have now are pretty open and there is plenty of air space with no obstacles around which leads us to the next issue: predictability and "reading" your opponent. While the mech that sticks to the ground has to pay attention to his surroundings in order to not get stuck on the wall and make it harder for the opponent to read it's next action, the mech that hangs in the air has no such problems - for the most part it is literally impossible to tell where the flying mech is gonna go since usually there is no terrain taken into account when dodgin in the air.

 

Third, when using projectile weapons(heat, eoc, rev-gl), that were designed for shooting ground targets exclusively and that rely heavily on having that ground under the opponent in order to be fully efficent are practically unable to compete with an airborn mech that has a hitscan weapon not only because all the projectile weapons are burst based and have poor DPS but also because they are not suited for the current flight-heavy meta. 

 

So, mechs WITH AC can retreat faster while shooting, but those w/o cannot... so you're opposed to giving it to all mechs...  In other words, you support A class having this perceived advantage, while B and C classes suffer?

 

Predictability and reading your opponent is still very possible even in open areas.  The small amount of unpredictability that AC offers only increases the skill requirement of the game, as now it requires some reaction time on top of proper planning.  This is a good thing.

 

Also, mechs hanging in the air are easy to hit.  I think you mean mechs dodging in the air... in which case, they run out of energy fast and will soon be on the ground for your splash monkey shot if you're not good enough to hit them in the air.

 

All the weapon arguments against AC are irrelevant tbh.  Plenty of people have zero issues hitting mechs with AC.  Have any of you opposed to AC ever played Tribes?  Those weapons were predominantly splash based projectile.  Tribes players spent WAY more time in the air than any HAWKEN player ever will.  And guess what, mid airs were commonplace.  So saying weapons are "designed for shooting ground targets exclusively" simply means you need practice, not that they are actually designed for that.  I'm not saying this to be offensive, that's just how it is.

 

Another thing to think about:  If someone is using rev-gl close range vs a zerker... you're already playing the grenadier wrong.  If you're in that situation, your team has failed already.  Also, I know players can use rev-gl to mid air anyway... so again, anyone with this complaint must either increase your team situational awareness, and/or increase your skill.

 

"Flight-heavy Meta":  Not even close.  I use AC on all my A class, and some B class.  I hardly ever use it because you're a sitting duck while in the air, and it burns your energy like crazy, making an escape once you hit the ground even harder.  You're totally making this meta up.  People that spend a lot of time in the air die a lot.  But perhaps dying is the new meta...

 

EDIT:  Here's something else to think about

Zerker with AC is probably the fastest thing out there.  Adding AC to all mechs will NOT be worse than a zerker.  So everybody has already seen the "worst" case scenario.  This "worst" case is what many of us view as acceptable.  Do people really think that C classes with AC will be pullin fuzzy bunny like a zerker?  Lol no.  Nobody is asking for that...

Edited by RedVan, 22 March 2015 - 07:57 PM.

[RedVan]

No, stop it, this is already a issue with many weapons not being balanced to deal with air dodge anyway. 

 

 

I imagine just trying to rev gl all these air dodge mechs. As they bop me on the head with TOWS

Flak, mini flak, reflak, KLA (flak mode): Perfect vs AC

SMC, AR, vulcan: Perfect vs AC

GL and TOW: Perfect vs AC

Heat:  Takes a little skill, but certainly excellent vs AC once you take a little time to learn how

RPR, slug, sabot, KE:  Perfect vs AC

HF and seeker...  do I really need to mention that these are perfect for AC

EOC:  Takes a little skill, but certainly very usable vs AC.  I use it on my raider and have no problems hitting AC mechs

KLA projectile:  Probably the hardest thing to hit an AC mech with as it is slow ROF and no remote det.  But, certainly doable.

Rev-GL:  High ROF projectile... if you cannot figure out how to lead with a high ROF weapon, you've got bigger problems than an AC mech.

 

 

What weapons aren't balanced to deal with air dodge again?  Sounds like because you suck with a rev-gl vs air dodge, you're trying to make it sound like ALL OTHER WEAPONS MUST BE THE SAME!!!!!  Simply isn't true.

Edited by RedVan, 22 March 2015 - 07:47 PM.