202 replies to this topic

[Nept]

Sounds like a lot of trouble for the devs. That said, i'm not against implementing air dodge as a universal feature and leaving it at that but i definitely want it to be nerfed in the way that would make the overall combat more grounded while leaving that extra movement option for all those who enjoys it.

 

Just a quick note: EU side now have some new servers located in Germany and my average ping on those is around 60-70ms and even less for some of the other russians. So at this point i admit that the high ping argument is no longer relevant(at least for me).

 

Glad to hear that you guys got some new servers.  That's awesome.

[Leonhardt]

 A splash weapon should do less damage on a direct hit than a hit-scan weapon on a direct hit, due to the splash damage being able to damage without a hit.

 

EDIT: Ugh. Those sentences read terribly, I apologize 

 

Not sure if that is what you meant, but the way I read it that would mean that splash weapons would do somewhere in the range of 10 direct damage and assuming we are still using the math for splash around 2-5 for splash depending on range from epicenter. To be clear about what I am implying... that would completely gimp all splash weapons into uselessness.

 

If, however you meant that splash weapons should do less direct hit damage and more splash damage I can only guess at what point that serves. Your wording/logic has me puzzled. lol

Edited by Leonhardt, 25 March 2015 - 05:25 AM.

[PoopSlinger]

ROBOTS FROM THE FUTURE SHOULD FLY!!!   They are futuristic robots of death and to think they can't boost in an alternate direction is as dumb as not having a sinlge one of them with lazers.  AIR DODGE FOR ALL!

[Fantus_Longhorn]

Not sure if that is what you meant, but the way I read it that would mean that splash weapons would do somewhere in the range of 10 direct damage and assuming we are still using the math for splash around 2-5 for splash depending on range from epicenter. To be clear about what I am implying... that would completely gimp all splash weapons into uselessness.

 

If, however you meant that splash weapons should do less direct hit damage and more splash damage I can only guess at what point that serves. Your wording/logic has me puzzled. lol

 

I'm not sure what I meant, either 

[deidarall]

Now I'm going to pick apart your video:

 

 

 

I would rather you pick with my points rather than my vid. But k. 

 

 

"He can do consistent damage to me while pushing forward"

You flat out missed a mech flying straight towards you.  No excuse for that.  He wasn't even dodging.  His relative velocity was zero.  He was not high enough to be out of range.

 

 

 

 

Does not address what I said, is my statement "He can do constant damage pushing forward." incorrect? If it is address why it is, not "Oh you missed him flying toward you doing constant damage." Cause that is a agreement with me in that case. 

 

Where is the rest of your team?  I see you vs an A and a C.  You're likely not going to win regardless of AC.  This I attribute to needing to improve teamwork and situational awareness.  Were they behind you?  If so, why were they not helping you?  Nobody is denying that a zerker with AC directly over you is a bad situation for a C class (not an impossible one, mind you).  Why are you in that situation in the first place?  Wait, I saw a friendly just off the left of your screen at 1:18ish.  Between the 2 of you, you should be able to have the zerker ded in no time.

 

 

True, but my point about situation is not related to team work, technically  there are a ton of what ifs, and should haves. But the main point in regards to the vid was not that I lost, it was the looking more at the nature of the fight itself.  Also I would point out the air mech in this case was able to make use of a opening that can not be done with boosting, and pretty much forced me to look up and lose special awareness in many regards, that is part of what makes it awkward to fight. The focus on the vid was again not on team play. But it is digging into WHY it is so painful and annoying to fight a zerker like that, cause it is much harder to punish the air push, or air retreat compared to normal boosting and running away, as seen in part cause I had at least a fair bit of trouble hitting the guy when I did actually focus on him. 

 

 

When he gets close to you, you need to use that fancy "ground work" people keep goin on about to position yourself for the engagement.  Don't back up, that takes much more time than going to the side.  But it looks like the zerker backed off enough for that to not be a huge issue.  "He jumped up and I'm at the limit..."  dodge.  Get him back into the limit.  Good thing he came right back down within milliseconds though!  So that's a non factor...

 

 

Again, the fact that I am hitting a limit in terms of aiming and situating myself at all makes the fight awkward compared to ground work vs ground work, also I hit the limit for a millisecond, and I feel that in the duel, that means it is a factor. Also remember air mechs can back up faster compared to ground mechs while actually engaging so that is something to be considered. Also I did get him back into the limit, and started tracked him, and that is when he dodged. Again that feels awkward to have to track this target, forced to use less spacial awareness due to the very nature of looking up, and being able to just back up, cause really in this case backing up toward my team seemed like a better way to survive as again I have lost track of the brawler when I look up, and am trying to distance from that guy at this point, just to share my logic from when I was playing at the time anyway, I would like to stress that is not the main point of the vid. 

 

The zerker dodges...  Yes.  Good on him.  There's no excuse to miss those shots.  His dodging gave you plenty of time between to land square on TOW shots w/o even remote det.  If the zerker were on the ground dodging, would you complain?  The little bit of splash damage you'd get off the ground from missed TOWs isn't going to help you enough to bother considering...  and you have a flak...  no splash at all there...  So the fact that he's dodging in the air vs on the ground is irrelevant. 

 

 

It is very relevant to how I can deal with the situation in a spacial manner. For the reasons of hitting a limit even for a millisecond, means in a way I have to reset my tracking of the target at least in regards to dealing with the limit itself, and when I do deal with the limit and re-align this guy dodges, cause he is a good player, and pressing every edge he can, as good players tend to do. When I fight a ground target that dodges, and I miss, it is not cause I had to deal with a limit, or spacial awkwardness, it really is cause I just missed, also remember if we are both on the ground both players have more even awareness of the actual objects around them, when a player by nature looks up they lose that, and the player over head has another edge, at least in this duel where I really am forced to deal with the limit. 

 

"I had to look at him and track him..."  Yes, pretty standard amongst any FPS game ;)

 

"It requires my undivided attention..."  Not if you stick with your team.  And if you're not with your team, what else are you going to give your attention to anyway?  The scenery?

 

 

 But you said I had like some teammates around me, but they were just idk doing things ~_~

 

Actually it is ironic you say that, cause the scenery, IE knowing where you are on the ground and knowing where you are visually are fairly important in hawken, I mean I think you and I can agree it is almost death if you dodge into a wall cause you were not paying attention to the scenery itself.  So yes, that is what I mean when I say I have lost awareness, I am saying when I look up I lose where enemy mechs are in this scenery as well as losing the scenery itself, cause well it does matter. :P

 

 

 

"He didn't kill me, the scout on the ground did..."  Wait, you tellin me you were in a 3v1 situation as a brawler and you're complaining about dying?  You'd have died no matter what.  Teamwork...

 

 

"Other mechs use it..."  Yeah, I propose it be standard so that all mechs can use it to "keep proper distance" w/o sacrificing an internal slot.  I promise you, not all mechs will suddenly be zipping around like a zerker :)

 

"The fact that you have to pay so much attention to this guy..."  That's got nothing to do with AC.  That has to do with you being in a 3v1 situation that was hopeless to begin with.

 

"XY and Z plane..."  Don't argue that the Z plane is somehow harder.  It's not.  It's a standard skill that every FPS gamer should have.  If you don't, that just means you need to practice it.

 

"The sheer awkwardness..." (this is a hard point!).  It being awkward is an opinion.  I don't think it's awkward at all, ever.

 

 

1, teamwork stuff addressed again not central to my points...

 

2, that does not address my points really, a promise does not mean much, and really I do not see why all mechs should be allowed to keep proper distance in a more simple manner. 

 

3,eh, again your putting it back to the teamwork, again not exactly my issue. 

 

4, it is, cause of the limit, see above, I am not a stranded fps gamer I mainly play total war, and really your argument of normalization does not make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, it feels more like "Learn to play my way or get out you non-stranded FPS player" pretty much makes me not open to your position from a ideals point of view. Also objectively again you have to deal with a limit in that you can not turn your mech 360 degrees over in the vertical. So yes it is harder objectively. 

 

5, see 4, again the limit is a factor here. 

 

 

"To put in in a nutshell, windwalking is bad because..."  ... because?  Because you don't understand how to counter it?  Good thing I just gave you many tips!  I am going to hit on your third point of it "taking up so much of a persons situational awareness" though...  That is merely you needing to practice SA more.  Nothing more to it.  I watched it and thought, from the very beginning, were I in that situation:  "Why am I not with the rest of my team?  I am most likely going to die due to my terrible positioning in relation to my team, considering it's 2v1 (which, looking back appears to have been a 3v1... why are the enemies blue?  Threw me off a little).  I am going to focus on ONE mech to take out with me!!!! Because spreading my damage amongst all 3 mechs will not help anything..."  I figured all that out within the first second of watching...  SA is a trained skill.

 

 

 

 

Eh again my team was not really that far away, and as you said before technically the zerker should have been shot down, but again it does not detract from my points. I really do not care that I died, it is how and why in regards directly to the wind walking system, that was the point of the vid, also part of the reason I was not with my team was cause I spawned like that if I remember correctly, cause TDM. So ya. 

 

Also I like being red, and having my foes blue. I just enjoy it, and you have no idea how hard it was to get used to lol. 

 

If you don't have the SA to deal with an air target and others, adjust your play style to be with your team so you don't have to be the only one dealing with it...

 

"Hurting the depth of the game..."  The current "ground work" people use is perfectly capable of dealing with the "air shenanigans".  I do it.  Many other players far better than I also do it.  The game originally portrayed "air shenanigans" in it, so it certainly was designed with that in mind.  Is the C class the worst at handling it?  No doubt.  Is it impossible?  No.  Is it even super hard?  No.

 

 

Really I only like playing DM so, *cough* but again over and over the team play was not the direct point, and the fact I was killed by scout without even knowing of him is just a thing I used to try to hammer in the I have lost situational awareness point.

 

Really if you look at the duel itself I was not doing badly, indeed he was on low hp, and I was on low hp at the end before being killed by the scoot, I think you are missing the point, even if it balanced, it messes with the pacing and is objectively in my view annoying/jarring  when you hit the limit in a duel, and how often it is a factor makes the game less fun if you ask me. 

[Arkhaun]

Pretty sure B class is the best still just sayin.... as far as options ex:assault (after Fred)

[RedVan]

 

 

 

I would rather you pick with my points rather than my vid. But k. 

 

 

 

 

Does not address what I said, is my statement "He can do constant damage pushing forward." incorrect? If it is address why it is, not "Oh you missed him flying toward you doing constant damage." Cause that is a agreement with me in that case. 

 

I completely addressed that fact.  The fact is, it doesn't matter if someone can do constant damage while pushing forward.  The zerker should have been nearly ded by the time it got close to you, but you missed your shots.  I'm not saying you missed the fact that he was flying towards you, you straight up missed shots when a mech was traveling directly at you, which is the easiest shot to hit.  His ability to damage you will significantly decrease when he's worrying about survival.  Not to mention, you have a hell of a lot more HP to work with...

 

 

True, but my point about situation is not related to team work, technically  there are a ton of what ifs, and should haves. But the main point in regards to the vid was not that I lost, it was the looking more at the nature of the fight itself.  Also I would point out the air mech in this case was able to make use of a opening that can not be done with boosting, and pretty much forced me to look up and lose special awareness in many regards, that is part of what makes it awkward to fight. The focus on the vid was again not on team play. But it is digging into WHY it is so painful and annoying to fight a zerker like that, cause it is much harder to punish the air push, or air retreat compared to normal boosting and running away, as seen in part cause I had at least a fair bit of trouble hitting the guy when I did actually focus on him. 

 

Teamwork is integral to this game.  That zerker flying like that would have been a non factor if you were with your team.  You said as much yourself when you complained about needing to put all your focus on the zerker!  If you were with your team, others would be helping you, either allowing you to spread your focus more, or kill the zerker really fast allowing you to get your focus back to other mechs quicker.

 

The nature of the fight is that you had bad positioning in relation to your team, got yourself into a 3v1, missed easy shots, and, frankly, deserved to die lol!  I'm not saying this to be an ass, it's just a very basic mistake you made.  And there's no need to blame it on AC when that in reality played a very small role in that particular fight.

 

You say looking up made you lose special awareness (Spacial awareness?  Situational awareness (SA)?  Those two are quite different, but never heard of special awareness).  So you're admitting you need to improve your situational awareness.  If you improve your SA, it won't be so awkward :)  It was painful and annoying to fight the zerker like that because you weren't playing the game as it was meant to be played (with good SA and with your team).

 

A zerker vs a C class is probably the worst case scenario.  In 1v1 duels, people probably would not opt to use a C class vs a zerker.  It's perfectly fine that there are some combinations that aren't optimal.  That's why the game is designed around teamwork.

 

And punishing the "air push, or air retreat" is no different than normal boosting or running away.  You shoot them, and don't miss!.  The fact that they are in the air does not make it more difficult.  Especially in situations like you presented where they're flying directly at you.

 

"...as seen in part cause I had at least a fair bit of trouble hitting the guy when I did actually focus on him".  Yes!  You admit it's a skill issue!

 

 

Again, the fact that I am hitting a limit in terms of aiming and situating myself at all makes the fight awkward compared to ground work vs ground work, also I hit the limit for a millisecond, and I feel that in the duel, that means it is a factor. Also remember air mechs can back up faster compared to ground mechs while actually engaging so that is something to be considered. Also I did get him back into the limit, and started tracked him, and that is when he dodged. Again that feels awkward to have to track this target, forced to use less spacial awareness due to the very nature of looking up, and being able to just back up, cause really in this case backing up toward my team seemed like a better way to survive as again I have lost track of the brawler when I look up, and am trying to distance from that guy at this point, just to share my logic from when I was playing at the time anyway, I would like to stress that is not the main point of the vid. 

 

Hitting the upper limit in aiming, I'll agree, is annoying, especially if the other mech can look directly down (can they?  I'm not sure what the down limit is).  I will not go so far as to say it's impossible, it just means you need to practice how to get them back into your limit.  That's a pretty standard thing as far as many combat situations are concerned.  I mean, consider dogfighting...  The entire goal is to get the enemy within the limit of your guns or missiles (so they make things like the AIM-9X!).  And certainly in dogfighting, there are some jets far better equipped to make that happen!

 

You keep talking about backing up... dodge to the side, you can turn while dodging...  don't back up, it's slow!  You shouldn't be tracking someone dodging.  See which way they're going, then "snap" to where they went.  You'll have enough time to get a shot off before they dodge again.  Of course, "snap" isn't so snappy with turn limits, that just means you need to process what he's doing quicker, in order to start your "snap" faster.  It's a skill issue that requires practice.

 

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but you were not backing up toward your team at all.  At 1:08 it appears your team is all far far ahead of you.  It looks like you got cut off from following your team by those two.  So I'm not sure if you were backing up away from your team because of a loss of SA?  I'm trying to not beat a ded horse too much, but, SA is a learned skill...  And quite certainly a point for your inability to deal with the zerker...

 

It is very relevant to how I can deal with the situation in a spacial manner. For the reasons of hitting a limit even for a millisecond, means in a way I have to reset my tracking of the target at least in regards to dealing with the limit itself, and when I do deal with the limit and re-align this guy dodges, cause he is a good player, and pressing every edge he can, as good players tend to do. When I fight a ground target that dodges, and I miss, it is not cause I had to deal with a limit, or spacial awkwardness, it really is cause I just missed, also remember if we are both on the ground both players have more even awareness of the actual objects around them, when a player by nature looks up they lose that, and the player over head has another edge, at least in this duel where I really am forced to deal with the limit. 

 

More talk about SA, you know what I'll say about that :)

 

But don't kid yourself, a miss is a miss whether it's on the ground or in the air.  You learn the mechanics of the game better, you miss less, both on the ground and in the air.  And like I said before, the zerker should have had at least a TOW and Flak to the face before he was out of your limit.

 

What would I have done?

 

First, avoid the situation all together.  2v1 or 3v1 is not optimal, no matter what the mechs.

 

But if it happened in this exact manner, hit the zerk with a TOW and flak, boost under him, immediately dodge to the left while turning to the right to get a shot lined up, and hit him again.  This creates uncertainty to him as to where you went, causing him to spend time (albeit short) to figure out where you went, all the while you've put him exactly where you want him.  In addition, he has the turn rate limit too, so causing him to have to turn greater than 90 degrees is another disadvantage to him.  So he'd probably pull a similar maneuver, dodge while turning, to line you up again.  However, he is reacting to you, so it's going to be delayed, giving you ample time to get a couple hits on him, and begin your next maneuver.  You need to use the "ground work" you talk so much about...  All I see in the video is you fumbling about backwards reeling in shock that there is a zerker on you (attribute that to low SA).

 

I've had to do just that before, and never ran into issues with upper limits.  Of course, boosting towards the enemy C means you'll take more damage, but hey, you're in a loss situation anyway, at least take the zerker with you while trying to get closer to your team so perhaps they'll notice that you need help.  But backing away as you did?  Worst thing you can do.  You're a large, slow moving object traveling in a straight line.

 

 

 But you said I had like some teammates around me, but they were just idk doing things ~_~

 

Actually it is ironic you say that, cause the scenery, IE knowing where you are on the ground and knowing where you are visually are fairly important in hawken, I mean I think you and I can agree it is almost death if you dodge into a wall cause you were not paying attention to the scenery itself.  So yes, that is what I mean when I say I have lost awareness, I am saying when I look up I lose where enemy mechs are in this scenery as well as losing the scenery itself, cause well it does matter. :P

 

Yes, I'm guessing the red arrow to your left at 0:36 is a teammate?  One teammate =! sticking with your team.  Regardless, 2v2 is more than possible, so mark that up to your teammate being bad, because I really have no idea what he was doing.  I don't think I ever saw him on the screen lol.  Looks like perhaps he went to engage the C?  Ahh yes, now I see it.  He went to engage the C class, leaving you alone with the zerker.  The better option would have been to focus fire the zerker (if the zerker is able to keep out of the upper range of your aim for BOTH of you at the SAME TIME, I wouldn't even say good for him, I'd just say holy fuzzy bunny bad on both of you lol).  So your teammate has some of the blame for not helping you in a mismatched situation.

 

By "scenery" I meant it in the terms of "stopping to smell the flowers" lol.  If I want to talk about situational awareness, I would have just said it like I have been the entire time :)  You were complaining about having to give the biggest threat mech your undivided attention, and I was laughing because I don't know what else you would want to be doing anyway.  TBH, SA in regards to maneuvering should be second nature...  or you should at least have enough SA to manage both.

 

 

1, teamwork stuff addressed again not central to my points...

 

Again, yes, teamwork is the "meta" of hawken... (god i hate that word, makes me sound like a gamer snob lol)

 

2, that does not address my points really, a promise does not mean much, and really I do not see why all mechs should be allowed to keep proper distance in a more simple manner. 

 

A promise means a ton, we already know what AC looks like on all mechs, and I can guarantee that no other mech looks like a zerker with AC :)  And I'm not even asking for the game to become like that!

 

You can say it's a simple manner to keep distance like that, but realize, had you actually hit the easy shots you missed, the zerker wouldn't be having an easy time.

 

3,eh, again your putting it back to the teamwork, again not exactly my issue. 

 

That ded horse!  SA is your primary issue.  You not being with your team was a result of low SA.  Your inability to deal with a zerker was the result of low SA.  Low SA isn't going to get you killed so easily if you stick with your team.  The SA required to stay with your team is quite low.  You know the limits of your mech, don't get yourself into situations where those limits may be met!

 

I mean really, would it be smart for a grenadier to go off and 1v1 a zerker while there is a tunnel he could be spamming with nades to actually, you know, help his team?  No.  Mechs do have little niches that they fill, play to it!  I guarantee there is no mech with the niche of being great at 2v1!

 

4, it is, cause of the limit, see above, I am not a stranded fps gamer I mainly play total war, and really your argument of normalization does not make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, it feels more like "Learn to play my way or get out you non-stranded FPS player" pretty much makes me not open to your position from a ideals point of view. Also objectively again you have to deal with a limit in that you can not turn your mech 360 degrees over in the vertical. So yes it is harder objectively. 

 

You're not a stranded (standard?) FPS gamer...  You mainly play Total War...

 

Ok.  Accept tips from those of us who have been playing much harder FPS games than this for years.  Do not admit to primarily playing Total War, and then act like you know better than people who have played FPS' their entire life.  Were I to play Total War, I'd be asking you for all the tips ever, because I don't play games like that.  I'm not saying "my way of the highway", I'm just pointing out obvious flaws in your assessment of your video.

 

5, see 4, again the limit is a factor here. 

 

 

 

 

Eh again my team was not really that far away, and as you said before technically the zerker should have been shot down, but again it does not detract from my points. I really do not care that I died, it is how and why in regards directly to the wind walking system, that was the point of the vid, also part of the reason I was not with my team was cause I spawned like that if I remember correctly, cause TDM. So ya. 

 

Your team was incredibly far away.  You're a C class!  That's about 10 seconds of boosting in a straight line to get from where you were to where your team was!  There's no better way to put it:  That was piss poor positioning.  Had you had better positioning (with your team), the zerker would not have lasted at all.

 

If the spawn was the reason for being separated, well, life's a fuzzy bunny some times lol  I cannot fault you for that.  I can, however, fault you for missing easy shots, and waddling backwards when you know that makes you an easy target :)

 

Also I like being red, and having my foes blue. I just enjoy it, and you have no idea how hard it was to get used to lol. 

 

I can imagine, I hate games that force a particular color for a team, Toxikk does it, and I frequently shoot the red players even when I'm on the red team lol

 

 

Really I only like playing DM so, *cough* but again over and over the team play was not the direct point, and the fact I was killed by scout without even knowing of him is just a thing I used to try to hammer in the I have lost situational awareness point.

 

The point of you losing SA is the biggest point there is.  Not "wind walking".  Improve your SA, improve your ability to deal with "wind walkers"!

 

Really if you look at the duel itself I was not doing badly, indeed he was on low hp, and I was on low hp at the end before being killed by the scoot, I think you are missing the point, even if it balanced, it messes with the pacing and is objectively in my view annoying/jarring  when you hit the limit in a duel, and how often it is a factor makes the game less fun if you ask me. 

 

With practice dealing with those kinds of situations, it'll become more fun :)  IMO at least.  Perhaps it wont for you.  Either way, the "fun" argument is purely opinion.  I'm just trying to point out things that'll allow you to deal with "wind walkers" easily.  Because they really aren't difficult to deal with.  Therefore, them being difficult to deal with cannot be a reason to take it out of the game.

 

 

Quoting sucks in this forum.

 

I did want to bring this up real quick though, just so it's clear:

 

 

On a random note:

 

In my intro-vid to the issues of wind walking, Redvan picked it apart as a skill issue, but my focus was the fact that I had to look up, disadvantaging me in regards to what I can do, he talked about how I did not note the zerker, I did, but at first I had proper distance so I focused on what I thought was the larger threat, the brawler, stuff like that is pacing in of itself, these factors of how this guy pressed me, and made me look up, those are direct changes of pacing we did not encounter in the 12/12/12 builds, and I am not exactly sure anyone needed pacing changes before AC and wind walking was put in, and after so long it is still debated cause people have not adjusted to it, it is not cause people don't try to, it is simply in my view that the pacing has issues in itself, related to wind walking, the pro- wind walkers have the edge in terms of having a long long time to normalize there position, "well people are used to it." but clearly this falls apart when you realize how long it has been in the game, and how people disagree with it's being in the game, if it was purely a balance or skill issue the idea for it to be uniform would likely have more support. (I still have to like respond to that thread but like I like this one better for some reason cause I am a tree)

 

Also note it is a 3rd person game, where situation pacing is managed very well with a large 3rd person cam and large distances to adjust and predict over. Also I feel no need to play a game like that so.... idk how that applies. 

 

I never said that you did not note the zerker.  I said you missed the zerker.  Missed as in didn't hit him with your weapons.  Not missed as in missed seeing him.

 

You thinking the brawler is a bigger threat is a lack of knowledge.  In a 2v1, take out the weakest mech, because you're going to die anyway.

 

As for it being a balance or skill issue, for you, it's a skill issue primarily.  Once you don't have an issue with the skill aspect, if you still dislike it, that's totally fine, that's your opinion.  But save that judgement for when you are capable of dealing with a "wind walker" in the first place :)

Edited by RedVan, 25 March 2015 - 08:34 PM.

[deidarall]

I completely addressed that fact.  The fact is, it doesn't matter if someone can do constant damage while pushing forward.  The zerker should have been nearly ded by the time it got close to you, but you missed your shots.  I'm not saying you missed the fact that he was flying towards you, you straight up missed shots when a mech was traveling directly at you, which is the easiest shot to hit.  His ability to damage you will significantly decrease when he's worrying about survival.  Not to mention, you have a hell of a lot more HP to work with...

 

 

 

Yes it is, it changes the pacing of the game, and how engagements progress. You don't get the crux of my point and ideals here. The fact is when you allow wind walking, or air dodging as it is atm your talking about changes to the game that effect the timing and progression of duels/ fights. Also I admitted I did not play perfectly, so idk what more you wish for, how I played in that exact game is again not the crux. 

 

 

 

Hitting the upper limit in aiming, I'll agree, is annoying, especially if the other mech can look directly down (can they?  I'm not sure what the down limit is).  I will not go so far as to say it's impossible, it just means you need to practice how to get them back into your limit. 

 

 

The nature of the fight is that you had bad positioning in relation to your team, got yourself into a 3v1, missed easy shots, and, frankly, deserved to die lol! I'm not saying this to be an ass, it's just a very basic mistake you made.  And there's no need to blame it on AC when that in reality played a very small role in that particular fight.

You say looking up made you lose special awareness (Spacial awareness?  Situational awareness (SA)?  Those two are quite different, but never heard of special awareness).  So you're admitting you need to improve your situational awareness.  If you improve your SA, it won't be so awkward :)  It was painful and annoying to fight the zerker like that because you weren't playing the game as it was meant to be played (with good SA and with your team).

 

 

 

The nature of this fight is much more about how wind walking effected the flow of this duel. Again due to the wind walking this gentle man was able to press me, and then use the elevation limits to his advantage, while forcing me to look up. You see red van, when you look up in hawken, your losing visual cues of where you are,  in favor of just seeing the sky, and a foes mech, it makes deciding where to move in a effect manner less certain for the ground player, while the air player knows where he is in space in a much more effective manner as he is looking down at the ground. And your telling them to have more situation awareness as they focus on a duel, and basically multitask like a pro, despite how simple it is for mechs to get over you now. Just telling me to improve SA is only going to go so far, Tank commanders in one man turrets had massive issues trying to, load, shoot, and command, so even under pressure of death human focus is at least somewhat limited particularly if we are talking about moment to movement spacial awareness of the ground when we are talking about shooting a floating zerk. Again also you can not turn your mech around vertically 360 degrees, so you can also not say that is not playing some sort of factual role  about how it makes air dodge more of a pain to fight. 

 

 

"...as seen in part cause I had at least a fair bit of trouble hitting the guy when I did actually focus on him".  Yes!  You admit it's a skill issue!

 

 

You miss the point, he is not simple to hit, I am not arguing on skill I am simply trying to assure he is actually not simple to hit, cause he isn't.

 

Hitting the upper limit in aiming, I'll agree, is annoying, especially if the other mech can look directly down (can they?  I'm not sure what the down limit is).  I will not go so far as to say it's impossible, it just means you need to practice how to get them back into your limit. 

 

 

I think depression is greater but I am not exactly sure, also getting them back into the limit usually means dodging and moving, and remember your asking a person looking straight up in the with lower spacial awareness to be the one reacting to this situation, again it sounds like the air guy has every edge in making the ground guy react from a pacing point of view, with more inherit systems in place to give him a way to press. This is not a argument of skill at this point it is a debate about who the pacing will burden more. 

 

That's a pretty standard thing as far as many combat situations are concerned.  I mean, consider dogfighting...  The entire goal is to get the enemy within the limit of your guns or missiles (so they make things like the AIM-9X!).  And certainly in dogfighting, there are some jets far better equipped to make that happen!

 

Pardon? Look dogfighting is a situation where you have planes that are able to move in such a manner that it is not even comparable. Fighter pilots do not have a limit on there gun elevation, and they are like flying really really fast. And these days they have like lock on stuff or something? Ya I do not really know a lot about flying so it is hard to address this in a meaningful way, and also I doubt it applies. 

 

You keep talking about backing up... dodge to the side, you can turn while dodging...  don't back up, it's slow!  You shouldn't be tracking someone dodging.  See which way they're going, then "snap" to where they went.  You'll have enough time to get a shot off before they dodge again.  Of course, "snap" isn't so snappy with turn limits, that just means you need to process what he's doing quicker, in order to start your "snap" faster.  It's a skill issue that requires practice.

 

 

 

I don't think it get it, a air player, can to some degree back up and shoot, and a ground player can't, again think about who that puts pacing burden on in regards to how engagements and fights actually happen. It is more of a principle issue when I start to talk about it in this case. More of a "That option is not open to me, like it is to him." sort of deal. As for the aiming stuff, I sort of know overall how to aim. Can you like just trust me with that? Please XD I mean I have a decent mmr, I am ok when I play. ect. ect. 

Also again the mech is the only visual thing there to track, so I tend to track him rather that predict, cause again I am looking up, and am not able to make predictions with ground cues, it is harder to make such things happen when again your looking up and have less cues as to where you are in space relative to your target, and something minor like that can make a duel harder/ more awkward to fight by a surprising degree. 

 

 

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but you were not backing up toward your team at all.  At 1:08 it appears your team is all far far ahead of you.  It looks like you got cut off from following your team by those two.  So I'm not sure if you were backing up away from your team because of a loss of SA?  I'm trying to not beat a ded horse too much, but, SA is a learned skill...  And quite certainly a point for your inability to deal with the zerker...

 

 

k, but my arguments are not based on team SA, more like spacial, and management awareness. 

 

But don't kid yourself, a miss is a miss whether it's on the ground or in the air.  You learn the mechanics of the game better, you miss less, both on the ground and in the air.  And like I said before, the zerker should have had at least a TOW and Flak to the face before he was out of your limit.

 

 

This seems dismissive of the fact that the air stuff in hawken is inherently different than the ground work cause again your looking up without visual ground cues. Judging distance becomes that little bit harder, being aware of exactly where you are is that little bit less intuitive, and then the limit does as well. I think these factors make it more awkward and "less fun" to fight, cause your having to mentally adjust for these factors while trying to track/shoot down a target not to mention he will be in a constant stat of movement when we consider drop, and you wish for prediction to also come into player here, idk it's that old one man turret in a tank ideal, where a lot of small factors that one does not have to deal with on the ground fight become a factor. 

 

 

What would I have done?

 

 

I don't think you get the point. The issue is one of pacing, you can argue the surface balance all you wish. Or the situation, you could do that to the end of time, the crux is, there was a zerker, and very quickly, with his air work he was able to make a fight very very awkward and painful for me, putting me on the back foot with mechanics that are only available to air work, I do not think that makes sense, from a pacing point of view. You can what if, it and make it about team all you wish, the central points of how he pressed up, how the engagement starts, and stops, are inherent to what are in my view issues with the wind walking.  

 

 

By "scenery" I meant it in the terms of "stopping to smell the flowers" lol.  If I want to talk about situational awareness, I would have just said it like I have been the entire time :)  You were complaining about having to give the biggest threat mech your undivided attention, and I was laughing because I don't know what else you would want to be doing anyway.  TBH, SA in regards to maneuvering should be second nature...  or you should at least have enough SA to manage both.

 

 

When we talk about human awareness we use the scenery in general to judge distance of where we are in a spacial manner, we have less flowers to look at in the sky so when have less awareness of where when are, after you ask us to move around while looking up. Basically when we duel on the ground in hawken, we are "stopping to smell the flowers" at a very fast rate, cause that lets us make predictions, lets us know where are, and so on.  When I am looking up at this mech, and we are actually talking about moving a fair bit spatially I am going to be at a disadvantage compared to the person staring down at the ground, cause he is able to "Smell the flowers" and I can't. Looking up in the sky and moving around is not second nature, not compared to having visual ground cues.

 

 

Yes, I'm guessing the red arrow to your left at 0:36 is a teammate?  One teammate =! sticking with your team.  Regardless, 2v2 is more than possible, so mark that up to your teammate being bad, because I really have no idea what he was doing.  I don't think I ever saw him on the screen lol.  Looks like perhaps he went to engage the C?  Ahh yes, now I see it.  He went to engage the C class, leaving you alone with the zerker.  The better option would have been to focus fire the zerker (if the zerker is able to keep out of the upper range of your aim for BOTH of you at the SAME TIME, I wouldn't even say good for him, I'd just say holy fuzzy bunny bad on both of you lol).  So your teammate has some of the blame for not helping you in a mismatched situation.

 

It is always the bloody teammates huh?

 

 

That ded horse!  SA is your primary issue.  You not being with your team was a result of low SA.  Your inability to deal with a zerker was the result of low SA.  Low SA isn't going to get you killed so easily if you stick with your team.  The SA required to stay with your team is quite low.  You know the limits of your mech, don't get yourself into situations where those limits may be met!

 

 

 I started the fight at proper zerker fighting distance, and he was able to press on me while doing damage in the air, again think about how that puts me pacing wise, in terms of dealing with this engagement. Just from a point of principle, it is very hard to say air mechs have less pacing advantage. Also again for the reasons stated above keeping spatially awareness is harder looking up, that fact alone to me means the wind walking needs to be rethinked and such.  Also it is very simple to say avoid situations where the limit comes into play, but it quite simply is not hard for air mechs at times to press that edge, again zerker is a good example, also assault at times actually. Cause again they can press you like that.  

 

 

A promise means a ton, we already know what AC looks like on all mechs, and I can guarantee that no other mech looks like a zerker with AC :)  And I'm not even asking for the game to become like that!

 

 

 I can assure you AC will make limit edging more common. 

 You're not a stranded (standard?) FPS gamer...  You mainly play Total War...

 

Ok.  Accept tips from those of us who have been playing much harder FPS games than this for years.  Do not admit to primarily playing Total War, and then act like you know better than people who have played FPS' their entire life.  Were I to play Total War, I'd be asking you for all the tips ever, because I don't play games like that.  I'm not saying "my way of the highway", I'm just pointing out obvious flaws in your assessment of your video.

 

No I don't play FPS games, I just play hawken. I think that response is sufficient. Also I do not act like I know better than anybody, I just think what I think as the player I am. "FPS gamer" or no. I can admit that and hammer home my points without feeling bad or lesser. Cause while I am not a great FPS player, I am a fair hawken player. When you repeatedly put on blame for players mistakes to this degree, overall else, while they bring up issues with the issues with Air work they have, you are dismissing there views instead of addressing them, taking a my way or the highway manner road by saying if you can't deal your just not skilled enough and you need to adjust to playing the way I am used to. IE my way or da highway. 

 

 

If the spawn was the reason for being separated, well, life's a fuzzy bunny some times lol  I cannot fault you for that.  I can, however, fault you for missing easy shots, and waddling backwards when you know that makes you an easy target :)

 

Can you punish me as well? ~

 

 

 

The point of you losing SA is the biggest point there is.  Not "wind walking".  Improve your SA, improve your ability to deal with "wind walkers"!

 

 

 Nope how wind walking forced me to look up, and effect my SA in space, is a big part of what the issue is. SA is related to where your looking, and how engagements happen, so you can not dismiss it so simply in my view. 

 

 

 

With practice dealing with those kinds of situations, it'll become more fun :)  IMO at least.  Perhaps it wont for you.  Either way, the "fun" argument is purely opinion.  I'm just trying to point out things that'll allow you to deal with "wind walkers" easily.  Because they really aren't difficult to deal with.  Therefore, them being difficult to deal with cannot be a reason to take it out of the game.

 

 

When we talk about how this game works, we can objectively consider many factors that effect fun, are the mechanics feeling awkward here as you hit the elevation limit? When you look up? How many visual cues do you have in a spacial manner? Does this make sense when the person is over you?  How are the maps deigned? Are they filled with walls and many objects for people to bump into while looking up? Or is it a smooth map without many changes in a spacial manner?

 

You see, if it is hard to deal with pacing wise that CAN be a good reason to remove or alter something in the game, note the difference from balance, here you could make many things balanced but radically can pacing. Radar is a example. Really how hard they are to deal with does not change the fact that they effect the pacing when your hitting limits or have people pushing up or flowing back, again I do not have a issue with my death, I just have issues with how it happened form a pacing point of view. There is a slight but important difference there. 

 

 

Anyway I think it would be better to like actually have a conversation in TS about this record it and throw it up at this point, this is getting to fragmented. Idk would you be down for dat ~_~

[RedVan]

You see, there are many players who deal perfectly fine with "wind walking" zerkers, and don't feel that it negatively affects gameplay (in fact, quite the opposite).  They are able to look up and maintain high SA of the environment.  They are able to take the look limits, turn rate caps, and other such limits into account, and not worry one bit about such targets.  In fact, anything in the air is generally considered dead to good players.  Everything you say is a problem resulting from AC, others can do quite well.

 

My biggest fear is that your opinion on it is based heavily on your inability to properly deal with it.  Your video and the ensuing discussion showed your inability to deal with it, so we can count that as fact.  Your self proclaimed low SA in the situation also make me question your view on AC, as that just shows me you're not able to focus on the solution, and are mostly just frustrated.  I would hope you take my feedback into consideration, learn from it, and then rethink your position on AC at a later time.  If you come to the same conclusion, that's totally fine, at least you gave it a shot.  I would also hope you wouldn't continue to be against it simply to save face.

 

Once you learn to properly deal with it by increasing your SA and understanding your mechs limits better, you might quite enjoy the "changed pace" and see how it adds to the complexity of combat!

 

As for the TS convo invite, sadly I'll have to decline as I'm unable to make commitments due to my work schedule for the near future :(

[Hrono]

You see, there are many players who deal perfectly fine with "wind walking" zerkers, and don't feel that it negatively affects gameplay (in fact, quite the opposite).

How can you alone speak for many ?

In fact? what fact?

[RedVan]

How can you alone speak for many ?

In fact? what fact?

"In fact" is an expression....

 

And I speak for so many because I speak to so many...

[Houruck]

What if gravity and the mech's momentum would actually affect the air dodge?

Right now it is a straight horizontal line in air.

 

 

If you step on a jump pad you can air dodge any time to cancel the effect. What if that would only give a curve to your jump?

[LarryLaffer]

What if gravity and the mech's momentum would actually affect the air dodge?

Right now it is a straight horizontal line in air.

Hmm... I thought that gravity affects the air dodge. At least it seems so for me when I use it. I think I should watch it closely.

 

 

If you step on a jump pad you can air dodge any time to cancel the effect. What if that would only give a curve to your jump?

I don't know why AC gives to its user the ability to cancel the effect of jump pad in the first place. From my perspective it's definitely a bug, because you can do almost the same thing with Air-180. So I think that it should be fixed. OR if new devs will call this bug a feature then it should be made universal (for example, by pressing the Jump/Hover key) or at least changed in a way you described.

Edited by LarryLaffer, 27 March 2015 - 08:52 AM.

[RedVan]

What if gravity and the mech's momentum would actually affect the air dodge?

Right now it is a straight horizontal line in air.

 

 

If you step on a jump pad you can air dodge any time to cancel the effect. What if that would only give a curve to your jump?

 

Not really sure I see a point in giving gravity greater affect on air dodge, aside from perhaps a "weighty feel" type argument.  As far as targeting someone with AC, imo it would make it slightly harder, as it's generally harder to adjust aim on a diagonal as opposed to direct X or Y axis.  I mean, the increase in difficulty would quite minimal, so shouldn't be a problem.  But if your goal is to make AC less effective from an avoidance perspective, not really sure it would do anything.

 

Wouldn't be opposed to testing it though (should we ever get some sort of test servers).

[Niels]

Not really sure I see a point in giving gravity greater affect on air dodge, aside from perhaps a "weighty feel" type argument.  As far as targeting someone with AC, imo it would make it slightly harder, as it's generally harder to adjust aim on a diagonal as opposed to direct X or Y axis.  I mean, the increase in difficulty would quite minimal, so shouldn't be a problem.  But if your goal is to make AC less effective from an avoidance perspective, not really sure it would do anything.

 

Wouldn't be opposed to testing it though (should we ever get some sort of test servers).

 

The momentum-breaking bug is a major problem on Origin, it almost completely negates the risk you have to take with jump pads. I think it is one of the biggest problem with the AC, and this come from a zerker+AC abuser (well, I've removed the AC from all my mechs now). Using the AC you can often escape death by air-dodging quickly after jumping, and land either in the safety of AA or below. Same thing for the other pads.

 

Maybe some people see this as a feature, but I think it's OP. And it looks and feels stupid too.

[shosca]

How can you alone speak for many ?

 

Probably the same way DerMax made sure that AC for all is not happening, like, he made sure the other day when talking with CpnJosh that ac for all will never happen, speaking on behalf of every one... :P

[DigitAll_Ninja]

I'm not that competitive or a high skill player, but I don't have issues with AC. 
I only play Predator now, with EOC Predator and Repeater, and 250+ ping, so yes, is pretty hard for me to hit the little bastards in mid air. But I see it as part of the game, I just need to retreat and wait for him to land, or use the surroundings. 

I used to play zeker with AC a lot when I was saving for my Pred, and it feels really nice to be in the middle of battle and dodge bullets like Neo. And I really felt the name "Berzerker". 
Some say that, AC took away the mech feeling. But it's all about what kind of mechs you are thinking of...

 

I feel like the AC being an internal is just awesome. If you like it you use it, but you sacrifice slots. 

AC could be nerfed, by diminishing the move speed or consume more fuel.

 

The only issue I address is the map design. They have little obstacles in the air. 

[Houruck]

Not really sure I see a point in giving gravity greater affect on air dodge, aside from perhaps a "weighty feel" type argument.  As far as targeting someone with AC, imo it would make it slightly harder, as it's generally harder to adjust aim on a diagonal as opposed to direct X or Y axis.  I mean, the increase in difficulty would quite minimal, so shouldn't be a problem.  But if your goal is to make AC less effective from an avoidance perspective, not really sure it would do anything.
 
Wouldn't be opposed to testing it though (should we ever get some sort of test servers).

I never said I think it is hard to hit them. I said they have the upper hand in those situations, and this would pull them down to the ground. Also see what we said about jump pads.

But I see it as part of the game, I just need to retreat and wait for him to land, or use the surroundings.

When did you start to play the game?

The only issue I address is the map design. They have little obstacles in the air.

Because the maps were designed before this internal.

Edited by Houruck, 27 March 2015 - 07:45 AM.

[deidarall]

You see, there are many players who deal perfectly fine with "wind walking" zerkers, and don't feel that it negatively affects gameplay (in fact, quite the opposite).  They are able to look up and maintain high SA of the environment.  They are able to take the look limits, turn rate caps, and other such limits into account, and not worry one bit about such targets.  In fact, anything in the air is generally considered ded to good players.  Everything you say is a problem resulting from AC, others can do quite well.

 

My biggest fear is that your opinion on it is based heavily on your inability to properly deal with it.  Your video and the ensuing discussion showed your inability to deal with it, so we can count that as fact.  Your self proclaimed low SA in the situation also make me question your view on AC, as that just shows me you're not able to focus on the solution, and are mostly just frustrated.  I would hope you take my feedback into consideration, learn from it, and then rethink your position on AC at a later time.  If you come to the same conclusion, that's totally fine, at least you gave it a shot.  I would also hope you wouldn't continue to be against it simply to save face.

 

Once you learn to properly deal with it by increasing your SA and understanding your mechs limits better, you might quite enjoy the "changed pace" and see how it adds to the complexity of combat!

 

As for the TS convo invite, sadly I'll have to decline as I'm unable to make commitments due to my work schedule for the near future :(

 

 

 

Ummm, look it is one duel, I do not get why your going for the "Some players deal with it fine." thing when clearly others do not. It is like... a pointless point. And not everyone is a top notch super duper player, and to be honest that is not my goal and never was, I am fairly good at the game cause I just have fun with it, and like how the fights feel, which makes me come back, I do not like it when visual cues, and pacing are putting the way I like to play in these weird situations where I indeed do hit limits and so on. Whether they are easy to fight from a balance point of view is a different matter. 

 

Look when we look up, we are giving up visual cues, we lose some of our direct awareness. When a limit is hit when looking up, your asking the player with the least amount of visual awareness to react to the floating player with a large advantage in terms of knowing where he himself is when he looks down. Whether or not the player on the ground can deal with it is not the point, the point is that it is wonky from a design point of view, particularly considering there is such a limit. It does not make sense from a design perspective. Also I did not use that clip or pick it to show skill again I simply thought it showed how air players use limits and use there advantages in  spacial manner, in a way that has more chances to feel awkward or unfair on the ground. You just don't get it, the fact is when you look up you lose what the environment is around you in favor of looking at the sky, and when your fighting a person in the air looking up your, ground movements are likely going to be less exact. These objective factors play a role in how game-play feels, design choices quite simply matter and this is a design choice, as well as a balance one. Also it is a later time, it has been a year since steam release happened? I beat plenty of people in duels, I lose a lot of duels, and I am not bad at the game. And that is good enough for me, when I get top scores in DM with people. Look the simple fact that wind walking can work is a change in core design ideals from the game-play of the 12/12/12, build and really I think it needs to be limited. Why? Cause it so drastically changed the very pacing of the game away from a system that already worked well and did so often mess with peoples visual perspective or being such limits into factor in a duel or fight so often.

 

Engagements "flow" differently due to it, fighting and how often players break line of sight with dps based weps was effected by it, you have all these things playing a role here. The fact that players can hover faster than they can walk, and therefore retreat or push while keeping on target is a massive deal, the fact that boosting players are going to drop weps matters. When we talk about things that effect pacing and where a player is looking, we have to ask question like. "This design choice effects how players engage each other, how do they react to that? Which player is going to be able to retreat better while fighting? A ground player or air player? Which will be better off pressing in a combat situation, a boosting player or air player? Where are they looking up or down? Or is the fight at ground level? Which player has more visual cues than the other? How much work does it take for the player to exploit the evaluation limits we have in game? How often does that happen? Does it make sense to expect a player with less visual cues to be expected to respond in this way or that way? What is the distance of the fight in these situations? Is it too close for the player on the ground? Should we expect them to be looking at radar to have better SA awareness of where they are or is that spending too much of the limited resource called human focus?"

 

Not just "Well some people just know how to deal with it, so it must be balanced." That view just dismisses ideas about how and why things are designed with a backward toss. Imagine for example your a tank commander asking for certain expansions to a turret instead of it being a one man turret and the engineer says to you. "Well others deal with it just fine, and say it is not awkward, so really your ideas about it feeling awkward or  hard to deal with simply have no bearing." You see, when we talk about things like this we can remember a tank commander in this case is dealing with objective facts that increase the likley hood of his experience being awkward or hard to deal with, namely the number of things he is doing, as well as trying to keep SA to command a tank, and just cause some tank commanders get a long just fine in a one man turret did not mean there were not objective issues that played a role in why we have many man turrets. 

 

 

What I am not liking is being forced to react in awkward ways due to the very design of the game, and simply being told by you. "Well just get better cause some people figured it out." and instead of addressing my design points you remain dismissive of my points that are NOT based on my ability to deal with it. 

 

 

Also, ya know my potion for assending build for a long time was that it was great, on the surface it opens up options, gives players interesting choices and so on. If people remember back far enough, but they don't they would likely see I have completely changed my mind,  so no, I have not taken up a postion for something as silly as "Saving face"

[RedVan]

I never said I think it is hard to hit them. I said they have the upper hand in those situations, and this would pull them down to the ground. Also see what we said about jump pads.
 

 

I'm just curious why you want them pulled down to the ground, your reason for proposing such a change...  I'm not adamantly opposed to it, I'm just curios why you're proposing it.

 

 

Ummm, look it is one duel, I do not get why your going for the "Some players deal with it fine." thing when clearly others do not. It is like... a pointless point. And not everyone is a top notch super duper player, and to be honest that is not my goal and never was, I am fairly good at the game cause I just have fun with it, and like how the fights feel, which makes me come back, I do not like it when visual cues, and pacing are putting the way I like to play in these weird situations where I indeed do hit limits and so on. Whether they are easy to fight from a balance point of view is a different matter. 

 

Look when we look up, we are giving up visual cues, we lose some of our direct awareness. When a limit is hit when looking up, your asking the player with the least amount of visual awareness to react to the floating player with a large advantage in terms of knowing where he himself is when he looks down. Whether or not the player on the ground can deal with it is not the point, the point is that it is wonky from a design point of view, particularly considering there is such a limit. It does not make sense from a design perspective. Also I did not use that clip or pick it to show skill again I simply thought it showed how air players use limits and use there advantages in  spacial manner, in a way that has more chances to feel awkward or unfair on the ground. You just don't get it, the fact is when you look up you lose what the environment is around you in favor of looking at the sky, and when your fighting a person in the air looking up your, ground movements are likely going to be less exact. These objective factors play a role in how game-play feels, design choices quite simply matter and this is a design choice, as well as a balance one. Also it is a later time, it has been a year since steam release happened? I beat plenty of people in duels, I lose a lot of duels, and I am not bad at the game. And that is good enough for me, when I get top scores in DM with people. Look the simple fact that wind walking can work is a change in core design ideals from the game-play of the 12/12/12, build and really I think it needs to be limited. Why? Cause it so drastically changed the very pacing of the game away from a system that already worked well and did so often mess with peoples visual perspective or being such limits into factor in a duel or fight so often.

 

Engagements "flow" differently due to it, fighting and how often players break line of sight with dps based weps was effected by it, you have all these things playing a role here. The fact that players can hover faster than they can walk, and therefore retreat or push while keeping on target is a massive deal, the fact that boosting players are going to drop weps matters. When we talk about things that effect pacing and where a player is looking, we have to ask question like. "This design choice effects how players engage each other, how do they react to that? Which player is going to be able to retreat better while fighting? A ground player or air player? Which will be better off pressing in a combat situation, a boosting player or air player? Where are they looking up or down? Or is the fight at ground level? Which player has more visual cues than the other? How much work does it take for the player to exploit the evaluation limits we have in game? How often does that happen? Does it make sense to expect a player with less visual cues to be expected to respond in this way or that way? What is the distance of the fight in these situations? Is it too close for the player on the ground? Should we expect them to be looking at radar to have better SA awareness of where they are or is that spending too much of the limited resource called human focus?"

 

Not just "Well some people just know how to deal with it, so it must be balanced." That view just dismisses ideas about how and why things are designed with a backward toss. Imagine for example your a tank commander asking for certain expansions to a turret instead of it being a one man turret and the engineer says to you. "Well others deal with it just fine, and say it is not awkward, so really your ideas about it feeling awkward or  hard to deal with simply have no bearing." You see, when we talk about things like this we can remember a tank commander in this case is dealing with objective facts that increase the likley hood of his experience being awkward or hard to deal with, namely the number of things he is doing, as well as trying to keep SA to command a tank, and just cause some tank commanders get a long just fine in a one man turret did not mean there were not objective issues that played a role in why we have many man turrets. 

 

 

What I am not liking is being forced to react in awkward ways due to the very design of the game, and simply being told by you. "Well just get better cause some people figured it out." and instead of addressing my design points you remain dismissive of my points that are NOT based on my ability to deal with it. 

 

 

Also, ya know my potion for assending build for a long time was that it was great, on the surface it opens up options, gives players interesting choices and so on. If people remember back far enough, but they don't they would likely see I have completely changed my mind,  so no, I have not taken up a postion for something as silly as "Saving face"

 

I know all the factors regarding SA etc...  The overall point with some players dealing with it fine, is that means those who cannot deal with it fine can improve, and thus have no excuse for not dealing with it fine.

[Mergaz]

Air dodge good for Hawken? (for the number of players was certainly not) ... It looks like a game of nerve bees ...

Edited by Mergaz, 28 March 2015 - 07:15 AM.

[defekt]

Air dodge good for Hawken? (for the number of players was certainly not) ... It looks like a game of nerve bees ...

It's perhaps a fraction unfair to blame AC for that.  If anything it would likely have been gating extra manoeuvrability behind a progression barrier that did the most damage.  (That's not to say that AC doesn't need looking at - it does.)

[RedVan]

I never said I think it is hard to hit them. I said they have the upper hand in those situations, and this would pull them down to the ground. Also see what we said about jump pads.

I don't see a problem with air dodge cancelling jump pads.  If air dodge were universal, it wouldn't give anyone an upper hand.  As for air dodging only curving the jump, I'm not particularly opposed to it.  Another thing worth testing.

 

 

Because the maps were designed before this internal.

 

TBH the maps were designed with high air maneuverability.  I keep seeing people claim that AC and air dodge is bad for the game because maps weren't designed with it in mind, that's simply not true.

 

 

That video shows much greater aerial combat than live has ever seen, and the same maps we have now.  IMO, that video (and the other I posted of pre-alpha) is what hawken should be, and is what drew me in to hawken in the first place.  Yes, things change as development continues, but map design certainly wasn't a reason for aerial combat being dumbed down to nothingness.

[Kopra]

 

TBH the maps were designed with high air maneuverability.  I keep seeing people claim that AC and air dodge is bad for the game because maps weren't designed with it in mind, that's simply not true.

 

 

Wait, how do you design maps that existed pre-AC to work with AC?

[RedVan]

Wait, how do you design maps that existed pre-AC to work with AC?

 

"AC" is simply a dumbed down version of what the game used to entail.  There was far more aerial combat displayed in those videos than even AC allows for.  Therefore, AC, being not as aerial focused as those videos, fits perfectly fine with the maps, as they were designed with even greater aerial focus than AC.

[Fantus_Longhorn]

"AC" is simply a dumbed down version of what the game used to entail.  There was far more aerial combat displayed in those videos than even AC allows for.  Therefore, AC, being not as aerial focused as those videos, fits perfectly fine with the maps, as they were designed with even greater aerial focus than AC.

 

This assumes that the maps were particularly well designed in the first place. In any case, have you considered that the level of mobility that was shown in the pre-alpha video's was removed precisely because of the issues it could have caused? Sure, it may look like fun in the video but that doesn't begin to tell you what it actually felt to play as and against.

Edited by Fantus_Longhorn, 31 March 2015 - 01:08 PM.

[BaronSaturday]

Not happening. We made sure yesterday when talking with CpnJosh that this will never happen.

I don't know who or what you think you are, but no you didn't. You're not a big shot like you think you are, you have no special sway. Josh will do what the community thinks is best, not what you or the rest of us frequentors of the TS think because we are a small group of elitist fuzzy bunnies. A very small group.

[bacon_avenger]

"AC" is simply a dumbed down version of what the game used to entail.  There was far more aerial combat displayed in those videos than even AC allows for.  Therefore, AC, being not as aerial focused as those videos, fits perfectly fine with the maps, as they were designed with even greater aerial focus than AC.

You know, what I see in those videos of a build that never made it out to anyone outside of ADH is a bunch of mechs boosting up every so often (aside from the one single scene on the overpass) and moving like what we had back in CB 2.

 

Well, similar.  They might be a bit faster in air movement and there certainly isn't anything like the AC.

 

So, that's a question...  Would the people who want more air movement give up the AC if air speeds were increased from what they were in the closed betas?

[Nov8tr]

AC? Pffttt !! You're all ded. This is my next mech that I'm building now.

Coming soon to a arena near you!! :P

Spoiler

Oh and yes they have frikin laser beams!!

Edited by Nov8tr, 31 March 2015 - 04:43 PM.

[Grollourdo]

Lol man

[Superkamikazee]

I don't see a problem with air dodge cancelling jump pads.  If air dodge were universal, it wouldn't give anyone an upper hand.  As for air dodging only curving the jump, I'm not particularly opposed to it.  Another thing worth testing.

 

 

 

TBH the maps were designed with high air maneuverability.  I keep seeing people claim that AC and air dodge is bad for the game because maps weren't designed with it in mind, that's simply not true.

 

 

That video shows much greater aerial combat than live has ever seen, and the same maps we have now.  IMO, that video (and the other I posted of pre-alpha) is what hawken should be, and is what drew me in to hawken in the first place.  Yes, things change as development continues, but map design certainly wasn't a reason for aerial combat being dumbed down to nothingness.

 

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that Hawken was always intended to have a level of verticality available to the players. I believe the argument is the maps were never designed for the level of air maneuverability AC provides.

 

And your discussion with deidarall it seems like deidarall is suggesting that skill level aside, Air to ground combat still leaves the ground combatant at a disadvantage due to the added SA requirement. The SA demand for the air pilot is less as a result of looking down providing enough visual map cues to permit that pilot less thought about physical obstructions, getting pinned up on a wall or something. 

 

Your argument is to get better, become a better pilot, better understand your surroundings, while true isn't always going to happen for one reason or another...like life. The reality is that some players simply won't reach that higher level of skill (can't put the time in, casual player, physical ailments), which leaves air combat at an advantage in the low to mid tiered skill level of play. There can also be an added discussion regarding splash damage air to ground for the majority of weapons, vs the limited ground to air splash damage opportunities with the current weapons in Hawken.

 

I won't argue the high skilled player base AC view, those guys are fine with AC, and they probably enjoy the added depth and challenge. But that's a very small percentage of the player base, and at times I feel that player base doesn't put much thought into the average players experience in Hawken. Again, I fully understand what the high level players want and are looking for, and more importantly why they're looking for it, but that doesn't always mean it will be of much benefit to an average player. My .02

[RedVan]

This assumes that the maps were particularly well designed in the first place. In any case, have you considered that the level of mobility that was shown in the pre-alpha video's was removed precisely because of the issues it could have caused? Sure, it may look like fun in the video but that doesn't begin to tell you what it actually felt to play as and against.

 

How something feels to play as and against is mostly an opinion issue, not map design issue.  What we've experienced through the majority of Hawken is mechs that have trouble just to jet up to a ledge, much less any form of interesting aerial combat.  Given all the map design features that appear to encourage such jetting actions, and evidence that an increased form of aerial maneuverability having existed, it's a hard sell to say maps weren't designed with such combat in mind.

 

TBH, the biggest complaint regarding jetting has always been "mechs aren't supposed to fly" and not "the maps don't support it".
 

 

You know, what I see in those videos of a build that never made it out to anyone outside of ADH is a bunch of mechs boosting up every so often (aside from the one single scene on the overpass) and moving like what we had back in CB 2.

 

Well, similar.  They might be a bit faster in air movement and there certainly isn't anything like the AC.

 

So, that's a question...  Would the people who want more air movement give up the AC if air speeds were increased from what they were in the closed betas?

 

"A bunch of mechs boosting up every so often"... Actually, in just about every combat scene, there is a mech displaying greater aerial maneuverability than we currently have.  So I'd certainly say that's more than "every so often" ;)

 

I mean, look at the combat scene that starts at 1:29... the lateral movement displayed is nearly as fast as the current air dodge...

 

At 1:37, 3 of 6 mechs take to the air.

 

At 1:52, aerial maneuverability is used for positioning through the entire engagement.

 

Aerial maneuverability clearly had a much greater role than we've ever seen in Hawken, including now with AC.  The AC air speeds are quite low compared to what was displayed.  Perhaps the zerker is faster, I'll give you that, but then we're talking about 1 mech, and that's not worth basing conclusions on.

 

 

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that Hawken was always intended to have a level of verticality available to the players. I believe the argument is the maps were never designed for the level of air maneuverability AC provides.

 

Again, the aerial maneuverability AC provides is less than what is displayed in the video.

 

And your discussion with deidarall it seems like deidarall is suggesting that skill level aside, Air to ground combat still leaves the ground combatant at a disadvantage due to the added SA requirement. The SA demand for the air pilot is less as a result of looking down providing enough visual map cues to permit that pilot less thought about physical obstructions, getting pinned up on a wall or something. 

 

Your argument is to get better, become a better pilot, better understand your surroundings, while true isn't always going to happen for one reason or another...like life. The reality is that some players simply won't reach that higher level of skill (can't put the time in, casual player, physical ailments), which leaves air combat at an advantage in the low to mid tiered skill level of play. There can also be an added discussion regarding splash damage air to ground for the majority of weapons, vs the limited ground to air splash damage opportunities with the current weapons in Hawken.

 

I won't argue the high skilled player base AC view, those guys are fine with AC, and they probably enjoy the added depth and challenge. But that's a very small percentage of the player base, and at times I feel that player base doesn't put much thought into the average players experience in Hawken. Again, I fully understand what the high level players want and are looking for, and more importantly why they're looking for it, but that doesn't always mean it will be of much benefit to an average player. My .02

 

There are many things that leave a particular combatant at a disadvantage when it comes to combat.  That can't be used as an argument to get rid of something.

 

Also, the SA demand for the air pilot is as much, just in a different way.  They're a wide open target for the enemy, and they need to keep SA on where they're going to go once they're no long in the air.

 

"Getting pinned up on a wall..."  Maps weren't designed for ground combat ;D  But seriously... that's something that needs to be worked out, there are many things that tend to catch you while walking too close to a wall.  However, while annoying, it's certainly able to be worked around.

 

Let me ask this:  If all mechs had greater aerial maneuverability and air dodge, would that not negate above complaints?  Since it would, what does the complaint then boil down to?  Simply an opinion of not liking it.  So since Diedarall has such SA issues with it, if he were capable of the same things, he wouldn't have anything to complain about aside from simply not liking it.  Thus I would expect support from him in making it universal, unless, of course, he simply doesn't like it ;)

 

 

Your argument is to get better, become a better pilot, better understand your surroundings, while true isn't always going to happen for one reason or another...like life. The reality is that some players simply won't reach that higher level of skill (can't put the time in, casual player, physical ailments), which leaves air combat at an advantage in the low to mid tiered skill level of play. There can also be an added discussion regarding splash damage air to ground for the majority of weapons, vs the limited ground to air splash damage opportunities with the current weapons in Hawken.

 

I won't argue the high skilled player base AC view, those guys are fine with AC, and they probably enjoy the added depth and challenge. But that's a very small percentage of the player base, and at times I feel that player base doesn't put much thought into the average players experience in Hawken. Again, I fully understand what the high level players want and are looking for, and more importantly why they're looking for it, but that doesn't always mean it will be of much benefit to an average player. My .02

 

No doubt not every player will ever achieve high skill.  I would not consider looking up while keeping SA on surroundings as high skill though.  I mean, even in BF there were many times where you had to keep focus on someone above you in a building while maneuvering around a map.  Diedarall did himself claim to not be a proficient FPS gamer, so no doubt this basic skill of FPS gaming is simply something he should improve on, and most certainly is capable of improving on.

 

Just in case there is any question:

 

 

4, it is, cause of the limit, see above, I am not a stranded fps gamer I mainly play total war, and really your argument of normalization does not make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, it feels more like "Learn to play my way or get out you non-stranded FPS player" pretty much makes me not open to your position from a ideals point of view. Also objectively again you have to deal with a limit in that you can not turn your mech 360 degrees over in the vertical. So yes it is harder objectively.

 

Keep in mind, I am not mentioning this to degrade him.  I think it is an important aspect as to why he has trouble with AC.

[Grollourdo]

Guys just to throw in something I just noticed that while air dodging you lose MUCH more fuel then on the ground.

[Grollourdo]

But still I think ac is good as it is...

[Panzermanathod]

Can I deal with air targets? Not like ground targets. Is it annoying to aim directly over you at a flying enemy? Certainly.

 

Personally I just take it. I'm still a new player so I don't have much opinion over AC.

[Superkamikazee]

TBH, the biggest complaint regarding jetting has always been "mechs aren't supposed to fly" and not "the maps don't support it".

That's actually been a major point of contention for me. For example on Uptown, this map has a lot of cover that is just a bit taller than the B class mechs. Air to ground typically has the upper hand, and a lot of it comes down to the being able take advantage of splash damage quite easily. Fighting off the air'd mech, you'd better have your aim on point, or a alt weapon with detonation. If not, there isn't much opportunity to chip with splash damage. Ground mobility is to an extent more predictable vs air movement with AC. AC has 4 means of boost movement when in the air, ground is hindered a lot by the 180 spin, and more so when getting face hugged.
 
 

Let me ask this:  If all mechs had greater aerial maneuverability and air dodge, would that not negate above complaints?

Essentially the majority of weapons would no longer be viable in the game, or viable enough to be bothered with. Low to mid tiered matches would devalue into Tow, and hit scan weapon load outs almost exclusively.

[bacon_avenger]

"A bunch of mechs boosting up every so often"... Actually, in just about every combat scene, there is a mech displaying greater aerial maneuverability than we currently have. So I'd certainly say that's more than "every so often" ;)
...
Aerial maneuverability clearly had a much greater role than we've ever seen in Hawken, including now with AC. The AC air speeds are quite low compared to what was displayed. Perhaps the zerker is faster, I'll give you that, but then we're talking about 1 mech, and that's not worth basing conclusions on.

Ok, fair enough, I rewatched it and tried to pay much closer attention to the movement.

You are correct, they are displaying a decent amount of movement in the air at better speeds than what was available previous to ascension.

However, it's not 'greater' movement than we have now. I would say the air movement speed is somewhere in between a 'typical' boost and walk speed, and there is certainly a lack of air dodges.
 

Again, the aerial maneuverability AC provides is less than what is displayed in the video.

Matter of perspective.  While the AC distance is not great, it's faster than what is shown in the video.
 

TBH the maps were designed with high air maneuverability. I keep seeing people claim that AC and air dodge is bad for the game because maps weren't designed with it in mind, that's simply not true.

I missed this originally, and I disagree with it as well.

If the maps were originally designed with air combat in mind, then why did ADH consistently 'nerf' the maps with changes to map geometry and invisible walls to keep people off the top of buildings and other perches?

 

I remember a certain craven pilot who often complained about how ADH would block off access to areas that were found to be accessible by clever boosting and jumping.  He was also a proponent of unblocking the tops of buildings so if one wanted, we could boost up and walk/run across the top to various 'sniper perches'.

 

Sorry, but the past decisions on maps do not hold your claim that the maps/game was designed with air combat in mind.

And allow me to link to a video that provides direct opposition to your claims that the game has some design decisions with pro air combat in mind:



In particular, listen to Hughes at 1:10 and 4:02(ish)...

1:10 - '...this is the first time people have been able to play'
4:02 - 'We limit a little bit how much you can boost at a time to keep people from flying all over the map like crazy, we still want to keep that heavy feel to it'

The closest we have had to those air speeds in that unreleased build you linked to was alpha, as evidenced in the video from PAX '12 (which I remember the line for the corner they were in (top floor I believe, not far from the mojang booth).

 

In the interest of fairness, I do have to state that it annoyed me to no end that if I was boosting and then fired my jump jets, that I ended up at a speed that was similar to moving through tar.  That lack of momentum conservation was something that I wanted fixed/removed from the very beginning.

 

So, would you give up the AC if the air movement speeds were increased to be similar to what we had in alpha or that unreleased build?

Edited by bacon_avenger, 02 April 2015 - 11:27 PM.

[Superkamikazee]

In particular, listen to Hughes at 1:10 and 4:02(ish)...

1:10 - '...this is the first time people have been able to play'
4:02 - 'We limit a little bit how much you can boost at a time to keep people from flying all over the map like crazy, we still want to keep that heavy feel to it'

That's exactly what's happening in the game now.
 

we still want to keep that heavy feel to it'

And this is what's missing from the game now.
 

So, would you give up the AC if the air movement speeds were increased to be similar to what we had in alpha or that unreleased build?

I'm fine with a small buff to flight speed, it's the AC's maneuverability that's the problem.

[RedVan]

Essentially the majority of weapons would no longer be viable in the game, or viable enough to be bothered with. Low to mid tiered matches would devalue into Tow, and hit scan weapon load outs almost exclusively.

 

 

 

Flak, mini flak, reflak, KLA (flak mode): Perfect vs AC

SMC, AR, vulcan: Perfect vs AC

GL and TOW: Perfect vs AC

Heat:  Takes a little skill, but certainly excellent vs AC once you take a little time to learn how

RPR, slug, sabot, KE:  Perfect vs AC

HF and seeker...  do I really need to mention that these are perfect for AC

EOC:  Takes a little skill, but certainly very usable vs AC.  I use it on my raider and have no problems hitting AC mechs

KLA projectile:  Probably the hardest thing to hit an AC mech with as it is slow ROF and no remote det.  But, certainly doable.

Rev-GL:  High ROF projectile... if you cannot figure out how to lead with a high ROF weapon, you've got bigger problems than an AC mech.

 

 

Majority of weapons are viable vs AC already...

 

 

Ok, fair enough, I rewatched it and tried to pay much closer attention to the movement.

You are correct, they are displaying a decent amount of movement in the air at better speeds than what was available previous to ascension.

However, it's not 'greater' movement than we have now. I would say the air movement speed is somewhere in between a 'typical' boost and walk speed, and there is certainly a lack of air dodges.

 

What is displayed in the early videos is faster than most mechs with AC on (zerker is contestable).  Also, "greater maneuverability" is more than just speed, maneuverability tends to imply changes in velocity more so than implying speed.  Air dodge simply allows for someone in the air to not be an extremely easy target, as they still would be given the old video aerial maneuverability.
 

Matter of perspective.  While the AC distance is not great, it's faster than what is shown in the video.
 

I missed this originally, and I disagree with it as well.

If the maps were originally designed with air combat in mind, then why did ADH consistently 'nerf' the maps with changes to map geometry and invisible walls to keep people off the top of buildings and other perches?

 

I remember a certain craven pilot who often complained about how ADH would block off access to areas that were found to be accessible by clever boosting and jumping.  He was also a proponent of unblocking the tops of buildings so if one wanted, we could boost up and walk/run across the top to various 'sniper perches'.

 

Sorry, but the past decisions on maps do not hold your claim that the maps/game was designed with air combat in mind.

 

Keeping people off the top of buildings and other perches doesn't really deal with aerial combat at all.  That was more or less to keep people from camping in one place high above everyone else.  Camping in one place is quite the opposite of aerial combat actually.  Even so, limiting access to particular parts of a map doesn't imply a desire for less aerial combat.  Plenty of games with greater aerial maneuverability had areas off limits.

And allow me to link to a video that provides direct opposition to your claims that the game has some design decisions with pro air combat in mind:



In particular, listen to Hughes at 1:10 and 4:02(ish)...

1:10 - '...this is the first time people have been able to play'

I don't really see what that has to do with anything...

4:02 - 'We limit a little bit how much you can boost at a time to keep people from flying all over the map like crazy, we still want to keep that heavy feel to it'

 

Opinion.  What is "flying all over the map like crazy" and what is a "heavy feel".  The videos I posted weren't "flying all over the map like crazy", and imo, given proper fuel usage (again, opinion) would have been plenty heavy enough of a feel.  The vids I posted display mechs tactically using aerial maneuvering in combat to make it more interesting, but did not display mechs flying everywhere, totally negating necessity to be on the ground.

The closest we have had to those air speeds in that unreleased build you linked to was alpha, as evidenced in the video from PAX '12 (which I remember the line for the corner they were in (top floor I believe, not far from the mojang booth).

 

In the interest of fairness, I do have to state that it annoyed me to no end that if I was boosting and then fired my jump jets, that I ended up at a speed that was similar to moving through tar.  That lack of momentum conservation was something that I wanted fixed/removed from the very beginning.

 

So, would you give up the AC if the air movement speeds were increased to be similar to what we had in alpha or that unreleased build?

 

I have no problem giving up AC at all if what was displayed in the videos I posted were used, so long as it's universal across all mechs and all mechs have an air dodge.  By universal, I do not mean all mechs maneuver the same in the air, obviously there are still 3 classes, just as not all mechs move the same on the ground, so it would be in the air.  By universal, I just mean it's not an internal that needs to be equipped.

 

 

 

That's exactly what's happening in the game now.
 Frankly, I don't see it much at all.  And when I do, I kill it, then I don't see it again until they've respawend lol

And this is what's missing from the game now.
 Again, "heavy feel" is opinion.  IMO it's plenty "heavy" enough atm, and wouldn't feel "lighter" to the extend of being bad, if the changes I propose were in place.

I'm fine with a small buff to flight speed, it's the AC's maneuverability that's the problem.

 

Increasing flight speed wouldn't do anything to increase aerial combat.  You'd wind up with a bunch of mechs flying along predictable paths, easy targets, with no added excitement.

[bacon_avenger]

Keeping people off the top of buildings and other perches doesn't really deal with aerial combat at all. That was more or less to keep people from camping in one place high above everyone else. Camping in one place is quite the opposite of aerial combat actually. Even so, limiting access to particular parts of a map doesn't imply a desire for less aerial combat. Plenty of games with greater aerial maneuverability had areas off limits.

True. However, there are parts of various maps that do not give a huge elevation advantage that have been off limits to jumping on or over since the first alphas, and other areas that were blocked off at a later time, so it's not just about preventing people from camping.

 

Opinion. What is "flying all over the map like crazy" and what is a "heavy feel". The videos I posted weren't "flying all over the map like crazy", and imo, given proper fuel usage (again, opinion) would have been plenty heavy enough of a feel. The vids I posted display mechs tactically using aerial maneuvering in combat to make it more interesting, but did not display mechs flying everywhere, totally negating necessity to be on the ground.

Agreed, this is subjective.

In my view and opinion, the various changes that have been made to the maps since the alphas do not support the idea that air combat was ever really intended, especially at the level that the air compressor enables. I also believe that the video that I linked supports this as the comment was made specifically in reference to the air capabilities of the mechs at the time and the attempt of TB to boost on top of the building he was looking at.

It stands to reason that if ADH had originally intended for 'wind walking' (as I've seen it called elsewhere in the forum) to be an option, they wouldn't have limited the air movement as they did in the alphas compared to the videos you referenced.

 

I have no problem giving up AC at all if what was displayed in the videos I posted were used, so long as it's universal across all mechs and all mechs have an air dodge. By universal, I do not mean all mechs maneuver the same in the air, obviously there are still 3 classes, just as not all mechs move the same on the ground, so it would be in the air. By universal, I just mean it's not an internal that needs to be equipped.

So that would be a no, as the AC is currently what is needed for the air dodge.

I've already seen some anti-AC posters state that they would be willing to deal with more air movement as seen in the pre-alpha build if the air dodge was removed.

As I see it right now, the problem so many people have with the air dodge mechanic is that it gives the attacker using it an advantage (high ground) without any real disadvantages (easier to target), especially since the maps, IMO, were not designed for this level of air movement.

Taking to the air has always been a risk vs reward thing. Attacking from the higher ground has always been an advantage, which I understand it, in Hawken was supposed to be balanced out by being an easier target.

 

Yes, it does use a lot of fuel to go airborne and air dodge, potentially leaving the attacked at a disadvantage when landing.  However, I do not believe this is enough to counter the large advantage an AC using mech has for the few seconds it's airborne, and you know as well as I do that with the current TTK, those handful of seconds can and often does make the difference in an engagement.