70 replies to this topic

[Amidatelion]

I'd just like to point out something regarding the items: they don't get kills not because their damage is so little, but because they are often not the last shot in a burst. The det and HE charge both get used in alphas, but they will almost never finish someone off due to splash, positioning or the fact that the target was healing at the time they were launched. Their lack of kills is not necessarily an indicator of their usefulness.

 

Regarding turrets, it may very well be as Kopra and DerMax say, that in groups they are effective but requiring that much team coordination, in a game without voice comms, to get use out of them is ridiculous. However, by that same virtue you will have to be careful of buffing them to make them singly useful, as Kopra and devotion have both pointed out for different reasons. Buff them by straight damage and you get a ridiculous nest of A-class shredders that doubles as a defensive stand-point which bogs down the gameplay.

 

I might add Hyginos' suggestion to do away with the scanner and make the turrets LOS scanners. This would give them greater functionality and reduce the risk of turret nests. Alternatively, my idea from ages ago, just allow the players to have more than one on the field at a time.

[crockrocket]

All these graphs and stuff are awesome! Thanks for all this cool data!

 

As far as det vs. he charge, det is definitely stronger. I wouldn't mind if HE got buffed to be similarly viable to the det. When I am using a damage item, I use HE charge just for shits and giggles, but in general I don't run damage items because other items are superior. I have definitely seen people using dets effectively. Turrets can also be used effectively to cover your back so that you know when someone is coming.

 

Just because something isn't the optimal option doesn't mean that's a problem. Some people will still choose other options because of preference or just for fun.

Edited by crockrocket, 30 April 2015 - 09:39 AM.

[Leonhardt]

Definitely true on the "the weapons that are most common in the game kill the most people." observation.  And, yeah, lots of times this sort of data doesn't really present much actionable insight.  The question is mostly focused on the items - turrets and Grenade in particular - do you think there could be an increase in viable play styles if they were stronger or had a larger splash damage radius (or something else)?

 

 

This, like many things in Hawken, is a complicated issue. In the past there was an era where "burst style" damage was highly effective especially when used in combination with the ample defensive options Hawken has to offer. Obviously the lack of sustained weapon use was a problem for balance and steps were taken to make sure that it was viable in the current build of the game. One of those steps involved decreasing the effectiveness of burst items such as the Det, Gren and other such offensive type items. The reasons for this change are long and a bit complicated, but I'll condense it the best I can so that we stick to only what is relevant to this specific issue, but you should keep in mind that it is interconnected with many other parts of the game that were in flux during this time.

 

During the "Burst Era" the det was the favorite item of any serious player for 3 major reasons. 1.) Very high damage which allowed users to "alpha strike" (single shot kill if not nearly so) other mechs when combined with burst weaponry. 2.) Large splash radius combined with high damage made for a very effective "CC" (crowd control) option as well as ease of use. 3.) Remote Detonation combined with the 2 previous facts about the item made it incredibly reliable whenever available. Also its important to note that during this time items had cool downs with timers rather than actual uses so a player would maintain the use of his/her items as long as they stayed alive long enough for the cool down to refresh the item. In the current build, as I am sure you know, this is not the case as items have a set number of uses. This change came at the same time that a lot of other "balance" changes were made in order to curb the "burst meta" and the Det (along with most of the other offensive items) received a firm backhanded nerf because to put it bluntly a lot of players complained about it (not saying they should or shouldn't have just what happened).

 

One of the major changes implemented in the patch that stamped out the "Burst Era" for good was a change to health values lowering the TTK across the board for all mechs. This change has had numerous effects and among them is the obvious problem of "alpha strikes" coming back into the game just like in the "burst era" and the solution was to nerf the damage of offensive items so that players using specific high damage setups like the raider could come close, but not quite there. This, however resulted in very weak offensive items for the fear of the "burst era" and further exacerbated by the lowered TTK.

 

Now that my history lesson is over I'll go over why so few people use offensive items at all in the current build of the game. As I am sure many people before me have already stated the numbers just don't add up. The amount of burst/damage a potential offensive item would provide is minor compared to the available health provided by "orb lording" builds or even shields. The only offensive item in the game worth using right now is the EMP because it has the potential to shut down entire teams and it doesn't even do any damage which shows that utility of the item far outweighs any potential damage dealt by other items. This issue has a root cause called "low TTK" and while I do like the lower TTK it causes problems with the balance between items and the effectiveness of items altogether.

 

 

Analysis of Current Options

 

Because the TTK is lower burst style weapons combined with items could easily kill a player if those items were as effective as current defensive items, so it stands to reason we have two simple options to remedy the issue (keep in mind that I don't want to upset the current weapon balance and I am working on the assumption that we are not messing with weapon damage values since I feel that is the completely wrong direction). Either we bring defensive items more in line with offensive ones or we buff offensive ones to be nearly as effective as current defensive items. If we nerfed the defensive items we would find that most of the items in the game would become largely useless as it would be far better to take items for utility purposes (items such as EMP, radar scrambler, shield, etc) rather than offensive or defensive ones. If we were to buff offensive items they would cause the same problems we saw in the "Burst Era" except to an even greater degree in the current build due to the lower TTK and since burst is immediate the defensive options might not be fast enough in many cases to warrant their use over burst weaponry so the lower TTK could then result in a switch of Meta with not real balance change except for the change in item usage.

 

The option I favor is a bit more complicated and unfortunately has the potential to upset the current balance of the game in other ways. Essentially what I am saying is we could plug one hole and 3 more pop up spraying water back into the ship with only 1 other finger to plug it at a time. Increasing the TTK to the point where there is enough room to play with the available damage offensive items can deal while not making defensive items completely useless would fix the big picture problem posed by the current build, but it would also require playing with the values for the current "orb lord" build and really any effective balance change to defensive items will need to address those internal combinations. The other part of this change would be to look into simplifying the item system altogether by going back to the old system using cooldowns instead of limited use items. The cooldown was yet another balancing factor that played a rather large role as instead of having 3 orbs available within a 5 second span of time a player would have only 1 orb every 45-50 seconds which as you can imagine would easily stomp out "orb lording" since they will likely be in more than one fight every 50-100 seconds meaning they would not have over 300 extra points of health available every spawn from items alone.

 

 

I understand this was a rather long post and if you read through all of this Josh I gotta say you impress me. As a reward I'll put something in a spoiler for anyone who read through the whole thing because I can't give out cookies over the internet.

 

Spoiler

 

~Thanks for reading!

[comic_sans]

Not the focus of the thread, but I'm with Pepe.  Make holos or something do 1 dmg, like a flashbang kill in CS.  The huge icon in CS is hilarious but obviously not possible here.

[Daronicus]

Snip

Worth noting that it would be possible to adjust the functional items (emp, shield, barricade) to be more in line with weaker items overall. For example, making the emp duration one second or lowering shield health. Not sure it's desirable, but that option exists. Alternatively, giving the weaker damage items extra functionality, though I'm not sure I have any ideas on that.

Though yeah, regarding item functionality and balance, there are two major changes I'd like to see: nerfing health orbs in some way, and giving some way to regain items over a lifespan, whether by return to the old timer system or some other rework.

Edited by Daronicus, 30 April 2015 - 12:02 PM.

[DerMax]

While we're at it, I would also like to point out that the current MK item system is suboptimal, because the MK2+MK2 and MK1+MK3 combos give you 4 usable items in the game, whereas MK1+MK1+MK1 occupying the same 6 slots give you only 3 usable items. Unfair.

Edited by DerMax, 30 April 2015 - 12:16 PM.

[Panzermanathod]

Yeah. I  noticed that as well and kinda wondered why that was.

[teeth_03]

Thoughts on the MK1-3 stuff:

 

Each mech should have a maximum of 3 items, no matter the combination, so I suggest the following:

 

MK1 Items stay at 2 slots

MK2 Items should be 4 slots

MK3 Items should be 6 slots

 

 

[kasei]

Also, I see a 'weapon Cannon Ball' in there, what is this exactly ?  ?

It's the Heat Cannon. My Rocketeer has stats on it.

FYI: The SAARE is called the "Heat Launcher".

Edit:
 

What, if anything, should be done?

Nothing, or very little. Minor increase of turret health perhaps.

I don't use the detonator or HE enough to comment on them really. I don't want to be hit by them, but I know it's not the end of the world if I do.

Edited by kasei, 30 April 2015 - 02:52 PM.

[talon70]

Items have other values besides kills so the data is hard to interpret imo, and they aren't really used for the kill shot anyhow.

 

For examples I like to use the detonator when I can get several enemies at once because the explosion is big , blocks vision a bit, and has a little psych effect. I do not expect it to kill in that case. I think turrets get used to kinda watch your back as if you drop one and then hear it firing tells you the enemy location.

 

Maybe turrets could use a buff. I say that because I often do not even waste the heat to shoot them, I just walk over them. That is way too weak for a turret imo.

 

It seems a lot more complicated then what the charts show as interesting as they are.

 

edit: I will add that if you want to prove the detonator and HE can kill , ask the top players to demonstrate and post on youtube for fun (or a bonus).  if the most skilled want to make the HE or det the final killshot i think that it can be  easily done for some.,

 

T

Edited by talon70, 30 April 2015 - 08:27 PM.

[comic_sans]

 

I often do not even waste the heat to shoot them

 

Same, and that's a problem.

[Grollourdo]

I think turrets and all should get a buff

[LEmental]

    DET? Only viable on the infiltrator/pred imo. The orbs, although they do not kill anyone, lead to far more deaths than any item combined. Orbs, when combined with orb build, is overpowered. Almost everyone runs mk3 orb/emp or shield. Det/nade deals around the range of 60 damage whereas an orb heals for 120 (significantly more with the orb build, and with a faster regen). 

 

I agree.  I run det most of the time on my predator.  It's rather useful because of the math involved in damaging A mechs.  Without a det they end up with just a sliver of health while both of my guns are on cooldown.  Also, stealthy alpha strikes need as much damage as they can. I would rather see the other items to come down rather than a huge boost in damage items.

I think we can all agree that orbs are too strong right now.

[CrimsonKaim]

For the detonator, I only use it on Infiltrator (and on reaper since it is the standart item). Because I can oneshot techs, scouts and infils. Reaper and airzerker are also nearly dead.
But I don't really care about items anymore since, as already mentioned, they have a really low effeciency. Why an emp? Not because I want to emp mechs, but more to get rid of shields. Why a blockade? Not because I want to block dmg, but more to heal myself in combat as a tech. Turrets? Ha-ha.
Oh but scanner and orblord build... Wohooo, I better not touch this.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Just going to point out the G2 Raider can nearly 1shot the highest health A-Class with an alpha+det. Leaves you with something like <10 health. A single stray bullet from the weakest sustain weapon would kill you at that point.

EDIT: Since we're on the topic of items, we should probably be looking into a way to replenish them, besides dying. Adding something like stations to replenish items could add interesting resource management options, and, if placed properly, could add map control options that force people away from the best defended areas (which promotes less defensive gameplay, which is prominent in Hawken).

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, 01 May 2015 - 11:06 AM.

[phed]

I'm impressed by how open and inviting the newdevs are with their data collection and sharing of charts and invitation to discuss pressing matters.

However, I think we are looking at this discussion from the wrong perspective.

Rather than looking at killshots by specific items, I think it would be better to analyze the damage caused by offensive items verses damage mitigated by defensive items, and the efficiency of thier use and prevalence as equipped.

Do more than 50% of mechs in matches have orbs on them? What is the average amount of health regenerated from an orb deployment vs. the average amount of damage caused by det/he?

[AsianJoyKiller]

I'm impressed by how open and inviting the newdevs are with their data collection and sharing of charts and invitation to discuss pressing matters.

However, I think we are looking at this discussion from the wrong perspective.

Rather than looking at killshots by specific items, I think it would be better to analyze the damage caused by offensive items verses damage mitigated by defensive items, and the efficiency of thier use and prevalence as equipped.

Do more than 50% of mechs in matches have orbs on them? What is the average amount of health regenerated from an orb deployment vs. the average amount of damage caused by det/he?

The issue there is that it's extremely hard to quantify how damage is mitigated by some defensive items in terms of raw data.

 

How does one quantify damage not taken because you spotted somebody sneaking up on you with a scanner?

How do you measure the effectiveness of the downtime caused by an perfectly timed EMP vs one that still hit a target, but ended up being wasted?

[phed]

I agree ajk, effectively judging the merits of items such as a scanner, scrambler, or shield verses a repair charge or det is quite the conundrum.

Perhaps it would be statistically relevant to compare performance averages by items equipped. Though this would likely show the percieved meta in the upper mmr ranges it could be useful to look at how items affect performance in the lower brackets. But I'd like to see this sort of breakdown individually for items and internals by mmr range.

Edited by phed, 01 May 2015 - 10:03 PM.

[Pandabaron]

Perhaps bump up the health of turrets, not the damage. A tow can easily destroy a turret making it redundant, but if the turret had a reasonable amount of health, it could prove to be an excellent distraction.. sneaky.. 

[hestoned]

up the health of and turn speed of turrets. very weak and SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW. and dont let me walk over them to destroy them thats dumb. if im in a fight and someone drops a turet its like lol i squish ur dum toy befor it opens

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

 dont let me walk over them to destroy them thats dumb. if im in a fight and someone drops a turet its like lol i squish ur dum toy befor it opens

 

 

Shhhh.  You jus' hush.  Next, you'll be teaching them how to get good

Edited by Call_Me_Ishmael, 02 May 2015 - 09:07 AM.

[PepeKenobi]

On the third graph of the OP: Internal detonator device??

 

(On a serious note):: Yep, destroying enemy items ""while being deployed"" would not be good thing...

[Veklim]

Ok, I've read most of the thread, apologies if I go over any ground covered by anyone post-Leonhardt Essay (sweet, read it all, enjoyed the cookie substitute!) but I hit my tl;dr threshold at that point (it IS midnight after a split shift, I'm usually more vigilant).

 

2 things I feel should be said at this point, because whereas all the math, pseudo-math and applied logic supplied thus far has been both enlightening and wonderfully detailed....

 

Thing, the first:

Burst vs. Sustain. Beyond the maths lies a very simple factor in Hawken. When someone is low on health, they are *often* being shot at by more than one source. A burst weapon will fire at (comparatively) long intervals, meaning there is a lot of time between shots where you are not killing the mech. A sustain weapon will fire at much shorter intervals, meaning there is less time for another source to get the killing blow. I feel this simple fact may account for much of the disparity in kill counts. I suggest, if it is at all possible, that you also list the weapons in order of critical assists, I strongly suspect the figures will differ radically.

 

Thing the second:

Mk 1-3 Combinations. If you choose double Mk 2s, you have 2 options, with an equal use of each, nice. A Mk 3 and Mk 1 will give the same two options, but weigh in heavily on one of those two options, same uses as before, equally nice. Thing is, 3 Mk 1s yeild a third option at any given spawn, meaning the 3 Mk 1 build has greater utility over either of the other two options. For this extra utility, you sacrifice a single use/spawn of your items, balanced I feel.

 

Just my two pennies, but I reckon they're worth enough.

[HorseHeadProphet]

Crush kills not on the chart? incredible! We also should take damage from things like having a truck dropped on our head from above on Origin.

 

Yeah turrets, especially when you're on your own, are not super strong. But one might just make the difference between living or dying. But mainly, as stated before, because it's providing something else for the enemy to shoot at, which is also hurting them. They have the choice to divert their attention away from me, or fight at a disadvantage.

 

Smart placement is everything of course, a little planning and you can make people chase you into a zone where you suddenly have elevation over them, and a turret placed at an angle to the enemy where he is taking fire from 2 directions. Maybe a slight, slight buff to the turrets.

 

no room for grenades or dets, so I really can't comment. The thought of preds and infils one-shotting people all over the map is a bit unnerving though.

 

I'm all about those sweet, sweet orbs. Me living longer than the other guy affords me more chances to fire at him.

[brackets]

I ran detonator for a while on my Reaper because it did about the same damage as my slug rifle and could be fired on the end screen (before progressing to the carousel), so occasionally I could fire it at someone I was about to kill before the match ended and get a satisfying "brackets DESTROYED ____" message on the message overview you see when you press F5 (once I even dominated a player like this).

 

The after-game kill doesn't contribute to my team's score or my own score, so I don't know how it would contribute to your stats, but I never found it particularly useful in the middle of the match -- just for the lol factor at the end.

[ROSING]

This really is a pretty awesome community, everyone's so constructive.

 

Personally I think aside from a slight buff to the HE grenade, it and the Det should stay as is. They are useful for getting just a bit more damage and maybe somewhat of a last resort when you're overheated, and especially people use them for alpha strikes. I think they are in a good place and they have their niche use. It's a better option than turning them into a noob tube from CoD. But I do see the merit that it makes other objects perhaps objectively better, and so for that I really don't know...

 

For turrets I think that it would be good to make them immune to being run over, maybe even function as a slight obstacle. And I would say maybe not give it more damage but give it more health. The way I see it, turrets are not so much an offensive weapon but more like a distraction or just as added damage. if the enemy ignores it then they take additional damage. If they focus on destroying it then their attention is drawn from you and gives you an opening.

 

With the issue of defensive items, which I assume to be orbs, shields, barricades and I suppose heat charges, I will refer to Leonhardt's post about either bringing either the offensive items to the par of defense or vice versa, i would suggest the latter--lower the health of orbs, barricades and shields, and lower the timer for shields, barricades, and heat charges, while perhaps making these things deploy slightly faster. In return, I propose a revamp of the item functions.

 

Instead of Mk1-3 be regarding number of uses, have it so that all items have unlimited use with both cooldowns for consecutive items and individual cooldowns for items. the Mk1-3 will affect how quickly the items will regenerate--say mk1 recharges after 45 seconds, mk2 after 30, and mk1 after 15. That way, even though the defensive items have been weakened, you can use them more often if you stay alive for longer. For utility items such as scramblers and radars, perhaps restrict them to only have mk1 versions or even keep them on the limited use function so as to prevent ominipotence after 15 seconds or mass confusion all across the map. However since I just realized that the old one disappears after the new one is set up I don't know how necessary this would be...and I leave it up to you as to if orbs should have mk3 or even mk2 versions with this system.

 

In this way, both defensive and offensive items will be like abilities you have at your disposal--defensive items will be more counters rather than additional fortifications, and be more parallel to offensive items as added damage. Ideally, a situation could arise where someone hurls a detonator at you and you pop up a shield or a barricade in response.

 

I don't know what kind of changes this will bring to comp play or even gameplay overall, but I do know that it will probably be significant. My question is, do you think those changes will lead to better gameplay or worse? To the veterans, how do you think this will affect higher tier play, how will pros react to this and can it lead to one object still being superior (i.e. does this just create a better orb lord)?

Edited by ROSING, 03 May 2015 - 09:52 AM.

[bacon_avenger]

For turrets I think that it would be good to make them immune to being run over, maybe even function as a slight obstacle. And I would say maybe not give it more damage but give it more health. The way I see it, turrets are not so much an offensive weapon but more like a distraction or just as added damage. if the enemy ignores it then they take additional damage. If they focus on destroying it then their attention is drawn from you and gives you an opening.

Quick side note, turrets used to be an object that couldn't be moved through. They were changed into the current form after players had problems getting stuck on/in them after deploying the thing.

Edited by bacon_avenger, 03 May 2015 - 02:28 PM.

[ROSING]

Quick side note, turrets used to be an object that couldn't be moved through. They were changed into the current form after players had problems getting stuck on/in them after deploying the thing.

Hm, perhaps have them thrown slightly? Not as much as say a radar but just far enough?

[1uster]

While we're at it, I would also like to point out that the current MK item system is suboptimal, because the MK2+MK2 and MK1+MK3 combos give you 4 usable items in the game, whereas MK1+MK1+MK1 occupying the same 6 slots give you only 3 usable items. Unfair.

 

I think the reasoning behind this was the fact with 3 different mk1 items you have more variety and therefore options on the battlefield which is an advantage. But imho this advantage is not big enough.

[oyoy]

Spoiler

Leonhardt, on 30 Apr 2015 - 9:01 PM, said:

This, like many things in Hawken, is a complicated issue. In the past there was an era where "burst style" damage was highly effective especially when used in combination with the ample defensive options Hawken has to offer. Obviously the lack of sustained weapon use was a problem for balance and steps were taken to make sure that it was viable in the current build of the game. One of those steps involved decreasing the effectiveness of burst items such as the Det, Gren and other such offensive type items. The reasons for this change are long and a bit complicated, but I'll condense it the best I can so that we stick to only what is relevant to this specific issue, but you should keep in mind that it is interconnected with many other parts of the game that were in flux during this time.


During the "Burst Era" the det was the favorite item of any serious player for 3 major reasons. 1.) Very high damage which allowed users to "alpha strike" (single shot kill if not nearly so) other mechs when combined with burst weaponry. 2.) Large splash radius combined with high damage made for a very effective "CC" (crowd control) option as well as ease of use. 3.) Remote Detonation combined with the 2 previous facts about the item made it incredibly reliable whenever available. Also its important to note that during this time items had cool downs with timers rather than actual uses so a player would maintain the use of his/her items as long as they stayed alive long enough for the cool down to refresh the item. In the current build, as I am sure you know, this is not the case as items have a set number of uses. This change came at the same time that a lot of other "balance" changes were made in order to curb the "burst meta" and the Det (along with most of the other offensive items) received a firm backhanded nerf because to put it bluntly a lot of players complained about it (not saying they should or shouldn't have just what happened).


One of the major changes implemented in the patch that stamped out the "Burst Era" for good was a change to health values lowering the TTK across the board for all mechs. This change has had numerous effects and among them is the obvious problem of "alpha strikes" coming back into the game just like in the "burst era" and the solution was to nerf the damage of offensive items so that players using specific high damage setups like the raider could come close, but not quite there. This, however resulted in very weak offensive items for the fear of the "burst era" and further exacerbated by the lowered TTK.


Now that my history lesson is over I'll go over why so few people use offensive items at all in the current build of the game. As I am sure many people before me have already stated the numbers just don't add up. The amount of burst/damage a potential offensive item would provide is minor compared to the available health provided by "orb lording" builds or even shields. The only offensive item in the game worth using right now is the EMP because it has the potential to shut down entire teams and it doesn't even do any damage which shows that utility of the item far outweighs any potential damage dealt by other items. This issue has a root cause called "low TTK" and while I do like the lower TTK it causes problems with the balance between items and the effectiveness of items altogether.



Analysis of Current Options


Because the TTK is lower burst style weapons combined with items could easily kill a player if those items were as effective as current defensive items, so it stands to reason we have two simple options to remedy the issue (keep in mind that I don't want to upset the current weapon balance and I am working on the assumption that we are not messing with weapon damage values since I feel that is the completely wrong direction). Either we bring defensive items more in line with offensive ones or we buff offensive ones to be nearly as effective as current defensive items. If we nerfed the defensive items we would find that most of the items in the game would become largely useless as it would be far better to take items for utility purposes (items such as EMP, radar scrambler, shield, etc) rather than offensive or defensive ones. If we were to buff offensive items they would cause the same problems we saw in the "Burst Era" except to an even greater degree in the current build due to the lower TTK and since burst is immediate the defensive options might not be fast enough in many cases to warrant their use over burst weaponry so the lower TTK could then result in a switch of Meta with not real balance change except for the change in item usage.


The option I favor is a bit more complicated and unfortunately has the potential to upset the current balance of the game in other ways. Essentially what I am saying is we could plug one hole and 3 more pop up spraying water back into the ship with only 1 other finger to plug it at a time. Increasing the TTK to the point where there is enough room to play with the available damage offensive items can deal while not making defensive items completely useless would fix the big picture problem posed by the current build, but it would also require playing with the values for the current "orb lord" build and really any effective balance change to defensive items will need to address those internal combinations. The other part of this change would be to look into simplifying the item system altogether by going back to the old system using cooldowns instead of limited use items. The cooldown was yet another balancing factor that played a rather large role as instead of having 3 orbs available within a 5 second span of time a player would have only 1 orb every 45-50 seconds which as you can imagine would easily stomp out "orb lording" since they will likely be in more than one fight every 50-100 seconds meaning they would not have over 300 extra points of health available every spawn from items alone.



I understand this was a rather long post and if you read through all of this Josh I gotta say you impress me. As a reward I'll put something in a spoiler for anyone who read through the whole thing because I can't give out cookies over the internet.


[spoiler]


~Thanks for reading!

 

Great perspective, The best answer so far, stunning summary. Almost like poetry. I imagined Beethoven "Moonlight Sonata" in the background and read calmly. Recommend everyone to read before starting to post new "X, Y need nerf.. neeeerf!.." ideas again.

 

So, What, if anything, should be done?

 

IMO, to revive the offensive items:

1. Without radical changes, you can try:

- HE Charge / Detonator:
MK-I: 3 Uses. 15 second cooldown. 1 Pipe.
MK-II: 6 Uses. 25 second cooldown. 2 Pipes.
MK-III: Infinite. 45 second cooldown. 4 Pipes.

* Will be nice to Increase radius splash damage by 15-20% (will help a bit against 20 ping flying Mosquitoes)

- Turrets:
Increase health a little (10%?). No walk squish but you can 'Crash from above' (jump from higher place).
MK-I: 2 Uses. 15 second cooldown. 1 Pipe.
MK-II: 4 Uses. 30 second cooldown. 2 Pipes.
MK-III: Infinite. 60 second cooldown. 4 Pipes.

 2. With more dilated changes (a little radical but more fun), you can try:

- Increase A-Class health to 390 (scout), 420-450 (other).
- Increase HE Charge to 85 damage + 20% splash radius.
- Increase Detonator to 70 damage + 10-15% splash radius.
- HE Charge / Detonator / Turrets MK-I, II, III: Same as the first suggestion above.

*390 minimum = No alpha strike.

 

Feeling confused enough already josh? The truth is that I have absolutely no idea how you see the future of Hawken. 'Quite' a fast pace massive mid-long battles between huge clumsy-fast Mechs with some mechanical drawbacks OR dizzying fast paced game, Adjust-Aim-Shoot-kill in 1-2 seconds. Offensive items? Who cares, I can peow-peow-kill, terrrr-peow-kill in a sec'. Good luck.

[TangledMantis]

Gee, I wonder which weapon that could be.

 

 

Hawken's Officially Sanctioned Aim-Bot�

Edited by TangledMantis, 06 May 2015 - 08:32 PM.