87 replies to this topic

[WillyW]

For me, the one and only thing that separates Hawken from almost all the other FPS games I have played is that friendly fire is turned off.  And it doesn't even make sense why.

 

You can do self-damage.  How in the heck does it make sense that your weapons can damage your own mech, but your team is magically invulnerable?  In addition, you can use items on your teammates (EMP, Repair Charge, etc.) but for SOME reason you can not damage your teammates.  It is a never-ending battle for this game, and most other games as well, for people to continuously claim "This of OP", or "This is IMBA".  Well, when you add friendly fire into the mix, it solves a lot of the root issues that such complaints stem from
 

Number one, adding friendly fire would most definitely ruin certain mech types, especially light mechs. But it would also force these types of mechs to not just rush in forward, with hopes that their team will be right behind them firing away. In the case of friendly fire, this same situation would end up with the light mech getting annihilated. Also, it would allow stealth mechs a much bigger advantage, because the enemy team could not just fire into their own group when a Predator or Infiltrator gets caught too close behind enemy lines. Another type of mech that would be greatly affected is the Rocketeer and Bruiser. Hellfire missiles would not be abused as much, because they would easily hit their own team mates if not targeted correctly. Snipers would be forced to time their shots to avoid team mates when protecting them from a distance. 

Number two, I think most people can agree that TDM's are won and lost based on how well either team works together and friendly fire would only add to that. It would force people to think twice about where and when they shoot. It would also slow the game down a bit. Yeah, some new players might not be helped by this change, and they might cause a lot of unintentional deaths. But the fact remains, it is extremely embarrassing to kill your own teammates and that fact alone would prevent these situations from happening as commonly as you might expect.

Please feel free to add your own opinions!

[WillyW]

To add:

Has anyone ever been in a bad matchmaking situation, when the entire enemy team swarms individual mechs out in the open? This would NOT happen with friendly fire. Swarming would be a thing of the past.

 

There are plenty of other games that have friendly fire and it works excellent. Counter Strike and Team Fortress 2 are great examples. 

Edited by WillyW, 11 May 2015 - 05:19 PM.

[Rei]

It would make the game more boring and add more stalemates to the mix with NO ONE wanting to run in.

[WillyW]

It would make the game more boring and add more stalemates to the mix with NO ONE wanting to run in.

 

So you don't agree that team swarming and running forward is a problem in this game? Spamming hellfires? Firing at one lone mech in the middle of an entire enemy team?

[Silverfire]

The game already promotes defensive gameplay enough, adding FF only adds to the emphasis on defensive gameplay and camping because no one in pubs will want to rush in lest they be damaged by their own team.  

[Rei]

So you don't agree that team swarming and running forward is a problem in this game? Spamming hellfires? Firing at one lone mech in the middle of an entire enemy team?

hellfires aren't that much of an issue, swarming happens because teams don't stay together, if they swarm your whole team you can fight back. Fight smarter rather than just fighting head on. There are ways to kite enemies while leaving shots in your trails to cover yourself and damage enemies swarming. if they swarm in, they're literally just asking to be shot. 

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

There are ways to kite enemies while leaving shots in your trails to cover yourself and damage enemies swarming. if they swarm in, they're literally just asking to be shot. 

 

Many on this forum can attest to this.  I play a lot of very-aggressive Scout. I get chased a lot; this strings the enemy team out so my team can pick off the hindmost or take an objective.  As I get chased a lot, I will place shots where the pursuer will be.  If I come across an orb, or have a moment to pitch one far enough ahead, I will very likely kill the first pursuer.  Rinse, repeat for the second, and sometimes the third. 

 

(Moral of the story: NEVER chase a Scout.  Wait, no, the moral is, kite your pursuers behind obstacles.)

[WillyW]

The game already promotes defensive gameplay enough, adding FF only adds to the emphasis on defensive gameplay and camping because no one in pubs will want to rush in lest they be damaged by their own team.  

 

Have you never played Counter Strike or TF2? People rush in, regardless of friendly fire. This would only allow them to be punished for doing it in a bad situation.

[WillyW]

Many on this forum can attest to this.  I play a lot of very-aggressive Scout. I get chased a lot; this strings the enemy team out so my team can pick off the hindmost or take an objective.  As I get chased a lot, I will place shots where the pursuer will be.  If I come across an orb, or have a moment to pitch one far enough ahead, I will very likely kill the first pursuer.  Rinse, repeat for the second, and sometimes the third. 

 

(Moral of the story: NEVER chase a Scout.  Wait, no, the moral is, kite your pursuers behind obstacles.)

 

And how exactly does friendly fire change anything you mentioned? Other than the fact that, as a Scout, you would be significantly more vulnerable (as you should be).

[Silverfire]

Have you never played Counter Strike or TF2? People rush in, regardless of friendly fire. This would only allow them to be punished for doing it in a bad situation.

 

Actually have never played either.  Not really an FPS player outside of Hawken.  I only say what I've said because it punishes aggression and likewise promotes defensive gameplay, something that the game has overtly stressed.  Hawken already punishes aggression with a weapon delay raise among other things, does Hawken really need another added mechanic that discourages aggressive gameplay? FF might be fun to dabble with, but it should not become a reguar occurrence in Hawken.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

And how exactly does friendly fire change anything you mentioned? Other than the fact that, as a Scout, you would be significantly more vulnerable (as you should be).

 

Not answering your first post, answering the one you want to know how to answer swarming - supplementing Rei's response. YOU drew the connection, not I.

[Broham78]

There are private servers with these options. A lot of the owners are total bro's and leave them open or change things if you ask. Charcoals place comes to mind. Making ff global would create a rift we don't need right now.

[RedVan]

It's already splash monkey enough. FF would drastically reduce TTK and make it just plain stupid.

[Grollourdo]

I don't really like it but maybe we could give it a try? Idk...

Maybe one server per region gets this and we could TRY it out.... Just yo try...


Idk

[WillyW]

Actually have never played either.  Not really an FPS player outside of Hawken.  I only say what I've said because it punishes aggression and likewise promotes defensive gameplay, something that the game has overtly stressed.  Hawken already punishes aggression with a weapon delay raise among other things, does Hawken really need another added mechanic that discourages aggressive gameplay? FF might be fun to dabble with, but it should not become a reguar occurrence in Hawken.

Friendly fire doesn't discourage aggression. It discourages stupidity by punishing you for it. A skilled player can be aggressive and careful at the same time. If you played other FPS games, you would know this very well. Not that I'm trying to demean you for choosing Hawken as your prime FPS game. I'm just saying your perspective could be more broad if you played other games.

Edited by WillyW, 11 May 2015 - 06:32 PM.

[WillyW]

P.S.

I'm still waiting for someone to offer an opinion with actual substance to it. 

No one has answered the question regarding the logic of being able to hurt enemies, your own mech, but not your team mates. It just doesn't make sense. Either turn off self-damage, or turn on friendly fire. You have to pick one or the other.

Edited by WillyW, 11 May 2015 - 06:35 PM.

[Grollourdo]

Friendly fire doesn't discourage aggression. It discourages stupidity by punishing you for it. A skilled player can be aggressive and careful at the same time. If you played other FPS games, you would know this very well. Not that I'm trying to demean you for choosing Hawken as your prime FPS game. I'm just saying your perspective could be more broad if you played other games.

Very true

[Broham78]

Nobody had to do anything. I don't care what they do in other games, this is Hawken. If you want friendly fire so bad go to a server that has it. They're available.

[Maxunarul]

I see much downside for the Predator and Grenadier

 

Predator: I could no longer set traps indiscriminately by that same fellow can fall on them, clear the mines are easy to see, but if you are in full retreat for shelter for reparation and bend the corner and you find them suddenly going to want to give kicked in the genitals to the Illuminati that put there, and you can not use the repeater EOC freely to support their peers as the same way that denies opponents withholding them from their peers, to lay mines in the .

 

Grenadier: If you launch grenades at a nearby enemy and has close co annihilate all, then they will get is that peers out of there quickly and leave you alone with the (or the) enemies or the Grenadier do nothing and try to get out of there and then just look, for you will not have to support, there is friendly fire.

 

The Predator equal, you have to forget the EOC repeater, because when your teammates are in trouble it becomes a useless weapon, mines the can enable friends and enemies, all you can do is stay looking like annihilate, you become a viewer.

 

Then with friendly fire enabled these two weapons must disappear, the Rev-Gl Grenadier and EOC Repeater Predator, are weapons that do much harm both direct and indirect impact.

 

Another thing, when you have a partner across it come to you seeking refuge in some wall that is at yours back (because they already have some life) can not risk shoot over repelling that is chasing him, you can give to your partner, then the attacker has two prey, one (your partner) which can remove at will and then follow you.

 

FRIENDS WITH LITTLE LIFE

 

There if you forget about supporting them with TOW, heat guns or Grenade Launcher one of your shot finished annihilate your peers also, I think that would multiply the insults against new or newly are reaching the range of 3 stars for the level of frustration of the former would rise.

Edited by Maxunarul, 11 May 2015 - 07:23 PM.

[SatelliteJack]

 

Have you never played Counter Strike or TF2? People rush in, regardless of friendly fire. This would only allow them to be punished for doing it in a bad situation.

 

Have YOU ever played Counter-Strike or TF2? CS's comp format has FF and no one is doing swarming of any kind. The casual DM format has no FF. TF2 also has no FF at all. You know "Spy checking?" A pyro runs around flaming teammates until one catches on fire; the Spy.

 

And really, this seems like a bad idea, regardless of poorly thought out arguments. I could definitely see this encouraging even more defensive play, and would bring most games to a grinding halt. I don't know about you, but if FF was enabled, I would be a tad hesitant to run in to defend the AA, for example, because stray bullets and explosives are flying everywhere.

 

Nobody had to do anything. I don't care what they do in other games, this is Hawken. If you want friendly fire so bad go to a server that has it. They're available.

 

Also, this. HAWKEN is a unique beast, which is already having problems with player retention. Adding FF would put it even more into a niche market, and give new players yet another reason to get annoyed and quit the game.

Edited by SatelliteJack, 11 May 2015 - 07:35 PM.

[ThirdEyE]

P.S.

I'm still waiting for someone to offer an opinion with actual substance to it. 

No one has answered the question regarding the logic of being able to hurt enemies, your own mech, but not your team mates. It just doesn't make sense. Either turn off self-damage, or turn on friendly fire. You have to pick one or the other.

I wouldn't give conventional logic too much weight in a game like this.  The reason there is self damage but not FF is for balance, as much of Hawken's weaponry is splash-based unlike other FPS games ala CS.  By the way I don't play much CS or any TF2 anymore but last I checked FF is off by default for both of them (casual), even though you can still inflict self damage.

 

Self damage punishes people for shooting themselves like idiots, and about a year+ ago there was a period where Failsafe prevented 90% of self damage.  The result was maybe the most awful metagame to date.  A lack of FF prevents trolling and teammate flaming, and like others have said prevents the game from 100% defensive.  I simply wouldn't ever play Grenadier anymore for fear of killing my teammates with unlucky bounces or even just by their proximity to who I'm attacking.  Enabling FF would just encourage everyone to use hitscan which makes the game boring as sin.

 

As far as EMP, ISM and Heat mines, they could all probably use a re-work.

[Kuroken]

Having tested out FF in private servers currently FF results in adding to your own score if you kill a teammate. 

This results in massive griefing if set at 1x damage. I believe it could be beneficial and interesting to play if set at something more akin to 0.2x damage

[CrimsonKaim]

Friendly fire is always good. In every shooter.
However, add a vote kick because some players may intentionally kill their own team.

[crockrocket]

No. I think this would not work at all in Hawken. Most secondaries and some primaries have splash damage. Additionally, the maps were not designed with friendly fire in mind.

 

Friendly fire would completely change Hawken gameplay as we know it. I'll say that it can be fun every once in a while, but that's why we have private servers.

[reVelske]

Friendly fire is always good. In every shooter.

 

And because of what exactly? Oh right, REASONS.

 

I don't imagine the impact would be as significant as some of us think, I wouldn't mind if they simply add a couple of friendly-fire activated servers at a later stage just for testing purposes and put an end to all the theory-crafting.

[BIsmuthZornisse]

I kinda want to try friendly fire, simply for the sake of internal consistency (why am only i hurt if my ally decides to move in front of me while i'm shooting the enemy?). but it shouldn't be just implemented like that, you have to think about the effects on the game, too:

 

First of all, this indirectly nerfs explosive weapons, since there is now fewer opportunities to safely use them. Should they receive a slight damage increase (or non explosive weapons a slight decrease) to compensate? Slight, because friendly fire obviously shouldn't be a factor in deathmatch (unfortunately other players team up anyway because they seem to miss the point of the mode).

Actually, does turning the friendly fire in the server settings on also make the tech's yellow/green beam heal enemies? Because that would slightly nerf the technician, too.

 

Additionally, there needs to be a countermeasure against the griefing that friendly fire would enable.

 

Additionally, the maps were not designed with friendly fire in mind.

Could you elaborate on this, please? Is it the narrow corridors in some maps?

[dorobo]

More strategic that way? Less elbow pushing and more spread out teams and more 1v1? TDM become more like DM? Imagine diving straight in to the enemy team as a scout dance around and they kill each other trying to hit you. That would be awesome. In situations where you are one against many you could litterally use opponent as a shield and not just a moving cover from spam. Some weapon balancing might be needed for FF to work. I would gladly try it given the chance 

 

Anyways not a new idea. We talked it over in previous forums.

Edited by dorobo, 11 May 2015 - 11:54 PM.

[dorobo]

This belongs here..

 

[CraftyDus]

Pro FF 

Seperates the bads from the really bads

 

But not for public matchmaking.

Hawken pubs would be rife with angry bads intentionally tk-ing to cover up their badness.

 

Would do much to add texture to competitive matches. It's just the thing.

 

[Maxunarul]

[WillyW]

 

I see much downside for the Predator and Grenadier

 

Predator: I could no longer set traps indiscriminately by that same fellow can fall on them, clear the mines are easy to see, but if you are in full retreat for shelter for reparation and bend the corner and you find them suddenly going to want to give kicked in the genitals to the Illuminati that put there, and you can not use the repeater EOC freely to support their peers as the same way that denies opponents withholding them from their peers, to lay mines in the .

 

Grenadier: If you launch grenades at a nearby enemy and has close co annihilate all, then they will get is that peers out of there quickly and leave you alone with the (or the) enemies or the Grenadier do nothing and try to get out of there and then just look, for you will not have to support, there is friendly fire.

 

The Predator equal, you have to forget the EOC repeater, because when your teammates are in trouble it becomes a useless weapon, mines the can enable friends and enemies, all you can do is stay looking like annihilate, you become a viewer.

 

Then with friendly fire enabled these two weapons must disappear, the Rev-Gl Grenadier and EOC Repeater Predator, are weapons that do much harm both direct and indirect impact.

 

Another thing, when you have a partner across it come to you seeking refuge in some wall that is at yours back (because they already have some life) can not risk shoot over repelling that is chasing him, you can give to your partner, then the attacker has two prey, one (your partner) which can remove at will and then follow you.

 

FRIENDS WITH LITTLE LIFE

 

There if you forget about supporting them with TOW, heat guns or Grenade Launcher one of your shot finished annihilate your peers also, I think that would multiply the insults against new or newly are reaching the range of 3 stars for the level of frustration of the former would rise.

 

 

I think the EOC mines would be the only thing that could be exempt. The mines would cause friendly fire if they were denotated, but your team mates would not set them off just by walking over them.

The point of friendly fire is to prevent people from being able to 'defend' their team by shooting aimlessly into a group of enemies and team mates. And yeah, sure the Grenadier would be a lot tougher. But in most other games, you would also be careful where you throw grenades, as to avoid your team. So its no different.

All I'm asking is for a bit of realism added to force people to use common sense. In reality, your mech would not have a magical shield that protects you from your team mates weapons but not your own.

[WillyW]

Having tested out FF in private servers currently FF results in adding to your own score if you kill a teammate. 

This results in massive griefing if set at 1x damage. I believe it could be beneficial and interesting to play if set at something more akin to 0.2x damage

I can agree with this. This^ is a comment with substance. Not just an opinion. 

In most other games, when you kill a teammate from friendly fire, you lose points (rightfully so). But that doesn't necessarily needs to happen, because it will be enough punishment that you killed your team mate and now are alone.

Edited by WillyW, 12 May 2015 - 09:03 AM.

[WillyW]

Friendly fire is always good. In every shooter.
However, add a vote kick because some players may intentionally kill their own team.

I agree with this as well. Vote kicking is something that's definitely missing in this game. Though, it might not work out if there is a high MMR player that gets kicked for being too good.

[BIsmuthZornisse]

I agree with this as well. Vote kicking is something that's definitely missing in this game. Though, it might not work out if there is a high MMR player that gets kicked for being too good.

or just a player being bad at the game. i would expect myself to get kicked a lot for this reason, i can't aim to save my life.

 

also, teamkilling should obviously not award points; i assume friendly fire was just an afterthought feature.

How much points should it reduce, though. as much as a destoying an enemy would give you? Should there be a negative assist, too?

[RedVan]

I can agree with this. This^ is a comment with substance. Not just an opinion.

In most other games, when you kill a teammate from friendly fire, you lose points (rightfully so). But that doesn't necessarily needs to happen, because it will be enough punishment that you killed your team mate and now are alone.

You're looking at this from a perspective that people know what they're doing while they play.

They don't.

Anyway, as others have said, most games with FF are not nearly as splash oriented as hawken. On top of how splash oriented hawken is, it's also very funneled, as in you're frequently in very close proximity to friendlies. On top of that, dodge makes for sudden directional changes which are very hard to react to when done directly in front of you as you fire off splash weaponry.

In other words, don't compare hawken to other games with FF. It just doesn't work.

I'm fully supportive of FF as an option for private servers, but hell no for pubs.

Edited by RedVan, 12 May 2015 - 11:53 AM.

[bacon_avenger]

Simulated it before there were private servers by going into DM and picking teams.

 

As others have said, it was fun, but I don't know if I would want it as a default globally.  And considering some of what we have seen, behavior-wise, from some of the more 'infamous' players, there would be griefing if it was made global.

[Panzermanathod]

I can tell you that, in my experience, FF would diminish my enjoyment in games. I've accidentally moved in front of gunfire. I've had others move in front of my gunfire. My framerate can get so bad as to actively prevent me from aiming correctly, due to choppiness. Sometimes my allies spook me when they pop out of nowhere (silly, I know). I've had lag spikes where on my end I look like I teleport into some other spot.

 

This is purely personal, yes. But as a default, I could not support it without wondering how it would be bad for me.

 

I do agree with what others have said against FF in some instances, though.

[o0m9]

For pubs, I would have to say no. Team fights on objective based game modes, particularly siege, get very cramped very fast. Half of the time I'm just hoping an ally doesn't dodge into my tow rocket (particularly when fighting over the AA on Origin or the hallways on Wreckage). 

 

All I can really see FF doing for Siege is making it even more difficult to displace the team on top of the AA which is already fairly difficult unless you've got a badass already on your side (in which case you're team probably has AA control anyway). 

 

Would it be cool in competitive? Maybe. But I'm a scrublord, so I get matched with other scrublords (and sometimes smurfs). Sticking FF in low tier matches is a surefire way to kill my enjoyment of the game, because a fair number of my kills and killers are suddenly going to be teammates who happened to zip into the wrong space at the wrong time. 

[thirtysix]

Well, well... the can is open and worms have come out... AGAIN!

FF is a must have. Turn it on, leave it on. Turn off MM or turn back on the ability to switch teams in the lobby (used to be like that, very interesting matches).

I have a list... your gonna get fragged, just a matter of time kid!

 

After thought for those yolos out there... kill everyone on your team, kill everyone on their team, it's all good :P~

Edited by thirtysix, 12 May 2015 - 03:53 PM.

[Odinous]

With higher TTK i would vote yes...but as it is now,no..