63 replies to this topic

[MomOw]

So far I've experience very few TDM with MMR server that match my skill (~1900MMR) with low spread and teams with even number. 

I definitely want more of them. Beside that I'm OK with having 1 good player in each team and rather balanced teams, so that you can still watch and learn.

[Xacius]

Gonna restate my thoughts from the old threads.  

 

I don't think it's appropriate for high MMR players to be matched into the best possible game available.  The problem with the current approach is that it allows high MMR players to be matched into 1500 lobbies, assuming that no better match is available.  A 2500 player should never be able to get into a 1500 lobby.  That's a disaster waiting to happen.  

 

If possible, the matchmaking logic should adhere to the following conditions: 

- Create a default average MMR that categorizes a "High MMR" lobby.  For starters, maybe 1900.  

- If a high MMR player outside of the 1900 range cannot find a game within their MMR range, then they can join any lobby that has an average MMR at or above the 1900 range.  

- Restrict the MMR search range back to 300.  

 

The benefits of this system are that it prevents high MMR players from getting into nooby lobbies, while still allowing them to play if reasonably high lobbies are available.  

 

Downsides are that they won't be able to play if a 1900+ lobby isn't available.  Imo, the benefits outweigh the negatives.  High MMR players, simply put, ruin low MMR lobbies.  

[TheButtSatisfier]

 

The benefits of this system are that it prevents high MMR players from getting into nooby lobbies, while still allowing them to play if reasonably high lobbies are available.  

 

Downsides are that they won't be able to play if a 1900+ lobby isn't available.  Imo, the benefits outweigh the negatives.  High MMR players, simply put, ruin low MMR lobbies.  

 

I'm starting to agree with this position on the topic of MMR and matchmaking - specifically that if there are no >=1900 MMR servers available then a high MMR player won't be placed in a < 1900 MMR server. I really don't want to play in a <1900 MMR server, so I'd prefer that matchmaker just doesn't put me in one. Furthermore, many 2200+ MMR players know each other and spend time in private servers, so they're not completely out of options when it comes to finding a match.

 

I'd at least be willing to give this idea a try for a few weeks or so. Let's see what happens.

[SS396]

A 2500 player should never be able to get into a 1500 lobby.  That's a disaster waiting to happen.

Hrmm...

2500 mmr - 1500 mmr = 1000 mmr.

I swear I saw someone around here posting something to do with #nomore1000mmr spread, its too bad I can't find the thread where I saw it anymore. That guy must be some sort of wizard though to have predicted your thoughts so perfectly. Either that or his subliminal codes in his posts seeped into your subconscious when you were reading them.

Amazing.

[TheButtSatisfier]

Hrmm...

2500 mmr - 1500 mmr = 1000 mmr.

I swear I saw someone around here posting something to do with #nomore1000mmr spread, its too bad I can't find the thread where I saw it anymore. That guy must be some sort of wizard though to have predicted your thoughts so perfectly. Either that or his subliminal codes in his posts seeped into your subconscious when you were reading them.

Amazing.

 

Slow your roll there broseph. You were quite salty in that deleted thread, but this one has been fairly civil and productive. Please don't do the same thing here.

[SS396]

Slow your roll there broseph. You were quite salty in that deleted thread, but this one has been fairly civil and productive. Please don't do the same thing here.

Nah, I don't let off the gas in the middle of the race, unless the other guy red lit, or I have such a wholeshot he can't catch up.
 

A 2500 player should never be able to get into a 1500 lobby.  That's a disaster waiting to happen.

But Xacius, please by all means, explain further your thoughts on the subject of WHY its bad. Take a moment and write a page or two about it please. I don't think enough people understand the complexity, and obviously (as depicted above) they'll listen more to your words than to mine because of your higher mmr and superior skill in a video game.

I might even put that quote in a signature its so perfect.

[Interrobang87]

shots fired

 

tehehe

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

- If a high MMR player outside of the 1900 range cannot find a game within their MMR range, then they can join any lobby that has an average MMR at or above the 1900 range.  

 

 

I'm concerned this might not be enough to prevent (even more pronounced) MMR runaway.

[?FTD? eXeon]

Nah, I don't let off the gas in the middle of the race, unless the other guy red lit, or I have such a wholeshot he can't catch up.
 

But Xacius, please by all means, explain further your thoughts on the subject of WHY its bad. Take a moment and write a page or two about it please. I don't think enough people understand the complexity, and obviously (as depicted above) they'll listen more to your words than to mine because of your higher mmr and superior skill in a video game.

I might even put that quote in a signature its so perfect.

Ya definitely your low MMR that causes people to not listen to you and not the fact that every post you make is like an angsty teenage girl trying to lash out at anyone and everyone on her period. Try being civil and and respectful instead of sarcastic and hateful and people might actually be receptive to you, or just keep being cunty and posting enjoyable to read rants of frustration and anger.

[TheButtSatisfier]

For what it's worth: I've seen a number of posters make genuine attempts at having civilly discussing opposing viewpoints with him, and the conversation almost always crashes and burns. He zealously preaches his opinion, ignores evidence that contradicts his position, and will sidestep mature attempts at having a discussion unless it promotes his position. From this I've concluded either:

 

1. He's trolling, or

 

2. He has poor social skills and/or deductive reasoning

 

Either way there's nothing to be gained from having a discussion with him. He embodies the saying, "He will drag you down to his level". He will derail - intentionally or not - entire threads because people like me fall into the trap of trying to point out his fallacies, asking him to be polite, or requesting proof to support his claims. He is the Terminator of productive threads, sent back in time by others like him to destroy civil conversations before they can fully form. And I am your Kyle Reese, here to knock up your mothers so ideally one of you ends up being our John Connor.

 

I've already given him too much to work with by just typing this.  But for the sake of this thread, I ask you all to just try something: ignore him. Just on this one thread for now is all I ask, we can work on others later. If you engage him here, the thread will derail. The worst outcome isn't that this thread gets locked or deleted, it's that we'll all leave here only remembering some jackass that ruined the convo for us instead of the well-crafted thoughts that we've spent time trying to share. We'll subconsciously want to avoid this topic again.

 

So, if you can, just leave it alone. We're better than this.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 02 June 2015 - 04:33 PM.

[Nept]

I still say that he should be limited to 2500+ MMR games for a couple months.

[crockrocket]

I'm tired of seeing every discussion about MMR locked (pun intended). Keep it civil everyone.

[StubbornPuppet]

Thanks Capn.  I am glad you're taking this seriously and using restraint and moderation to ease into the right balance.  Kudos.

[Anichkov3]

I played a little in the game after the changes, and you know what? It was worse. Previously, server accessible via the "Browse Server" at least were. Now there are none. TDM? DM? pf siege ... Where? Now the only way to actually get into it through the siege of the "quick start", which adds to the newcomers in the lobby before the game. With them it is difficult to play.
Josh, you're not doing the right thing. You narrows the range of servers when you need to tight restrictions. To a certain level in the match under no circumstances could not get high level players (and vice versa, the newcomers could join in high-level match). Ie no need to change the ranges of servers, and introduce into the logic of the work at the "Quick Start" additional search match.

[ThirdEyE]

Hrmm...

2500 mmr - 1500 mmr = 1000 mmr.

I swear I saw someone around here posting something to do with #nomore1000mmr spread, its too bad I can't find the thread where I saw it anymore.

I think there's actually a pretty important distinction to draw from this.  I'm not 100% sure what Xacius meant, but I interpreted it as "a 2500 player should never be put in a 1500 rated server."  This is significantly different from a 2500 player joining any server in which a 1500 player is present.

 

For example, a server consists of players with MMRs of 1400, 1500, 1600, 1700, 1800, 1900, 2000, 2100, 2200, 2300, 2400, 2500.  The MMR spread is 1100 while the server average MMR is 1950.  In the case of a server with an average MMR of 1500, the total MMR spread is likely to be much wider as there are at least a few players below 1500 which would widen the skill gap much more significantly, and there would be few or no other high MMR players to balance out the 2500.

 

All I can really agree on is that players should not be placed into server with average MMR of (insert arbitrary big number) lower than theirs.  Even so, this system kinda breaks down for the super MMR farmers as there are rarely ever servers with average MMR close to theirs.

[Draigun]

There is only so much you can do to mitigate the harsh reality of a low player base. And yes, I would agree that the high tier experience is almost like a different game. That's probably why there is such huge disparity between lower rated and higher rated players; and the opinions that stem from them.

 

Technically, the current system that places you into a match, and balances it out from the start are already perfect. The problem Hawken faces is the lack of a populous player base. Obviously, fine-tuning the system to work continuously is key to creating a better experience for the players, especially during this plateau.

 

With that being said though, I think it would be prudent to change things in response to the current situation Hawken is in. It probably won't be the most pragmatic choices of all, but for what it's worth, this missing piece to solve all of Hawken's match-making and auto-balance problems will likely not exist for some time. In that regard though, I hope the devs continue to look for ways towards expanding our player base.

Edited by Draigun, 03 June 2015 - 08:19 PM.

[M4st0d0n]

No. This would result in pure chaos for a small amount of time - as in brand new players fighting against multi-year vets with insane in-game skills, and no indicator to new players that it is happening, resulting in even less player retention.

Any amount of time where this is true is too long, IMO. Tweaking seems to be the only way to improve match quality with minimal impact on Potential NPR decrease.

 

It will result in exactly what we have here, but with less of the crap accumulated for years of population shifts. New players will still fight vets as long as you dont reach a viable playerbase.

 

Soft resets have been done to ranked modes in popular games, sometimes for every seasons. That's for their competitive modes. Hawken has no comp mode, just some arbitrary stat to pad. What's the difference between changing MM or changing MMR? Nothing.

 

Conserve three or four tiers, let the lower lobbies alone, allow the more vocal ones to access good games, give them something to fight for again. Profit.

[Hyginos]

I would like to see a graph of the difference of average MMR on each team vs the score difference, sorted by game mode.

 

That may tell us something about how close a match has to be rating wise before it appears balanced in game.

[StubbornPuppet]

In case CapnJosh is still reading this topic, I'd like to suggest something I've said elsewhere.

 

Why not try adjusting the MMR calculation to ignore all player accounts which have not logged in during the last 90 days?  I imagine that over 75% of the total accounts on Hawken have been completely inactive for a very long time and most of those probably never progressed further than level 20.  So, they are all going to generally have a very low MMR that is really making the average used to calculate it very, very bias towards the low end.

[breadeffect]

lol.  Rage harder than Xacius/Dew.  How the fuzzy bunny did I get put into the same bracket as Dew?  I demand a recount.  

 

 

because you're an mlg skrub. git rkt

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

In case CapnJosh is still reading this topic, I'd like to suggest something I've said elsewhere.

 

Why not try adjusting the MMR calculation to ignore all player accounts which have not logged in during the last 90 days?  I imagine that over 75% of the total accounts on Hawken have been completely inactive for a very long time and most of those probably never progressed further than level 20.  So, they are all going to generally have a very low MMR that is really making the average used to calculate it very, very bias towards the low end.

 

 

Puppet... the standard deviation of the population distribution hasn't really changed over time.  Shadeness' data collection and graphs show that, as has my datamining of data Ashfire gave me (all of Hawken's history to late March, 2015).

 

That std dev isn't used in the MMR calc, just the average MMR of the players in any given server.  The std dev of the population history could be used, but I believe (even if it were) it wouldn't move much.

 

If we made a drastic shift to the MMR calculation, we'd most likely see the distribution of players' MMR change to whatever was set for the new 'fatness' value for the lognormal distribution used in the MMR calculation (edit: ? will go as ?).  This is sort of a self-fulfilling prophesy.

 

HTH

Edited by Call_Me_Ishmael, 06 June 2015 - 04:43 AM.

[DieselCat]

Hrmm...

2500 mmr - 1500 mmr = 1000 mmr.

I swear I saw someone around here posting something to do with #nomore1000mmr spread, its too bad I can't find the thread where I saw it anymore. That guy must be some sort of wizard though to have predicted your thoughts so perfectly. Either that or his subliminal codes in his posts seeped into your subconscious when you were reading them.

Amazing.

 

 

SS...come on man, don't. No need to prove a point, just stick with the discussion. 

 

*+

[crockrocket]

Holy necro batman

[DieselCat]

Holy necro batman

 

How it showed up in my notifications, never looked.....ouch !.................

 

*+