48 replies to this topic

[OdinTheWise]

i think the best thing to do, instead of removing a mechanic that people like, we should look into the idea of countering air combat. instead of forcing people that dont want to take to the skies and liberate them selves from the tyranny of gravity, give them the abillity to temporarily clip the wings of the arial guys

 

this item would be able to force people to the ground in an area for a limited time 

[comic_sans]

Force them to the ground, or just disable their thrusters?

 

Also, would it be a throwable item, a placeable item, or a pulse that originates from your mech?  The pulse seems too reactionary and basic, and the throwable seems too obvious and cumbersome.  A placeable item might be the best choice, but it could also be exploited as an entrenching tool for defending teams.

[crockrocket]

Force them to the ground, or just disable their thrusters?

 

Also, would it be a throwable item, a placeable item, or a pulse that originates from your mech?  The pulse seems too reactionary and basic, and the throwable seems too obvious and cumbersome.  A placeable item might be the best choice, but it could also be exploited as an entrenching tool for defending teams.

Why do you think the pulse is too reactionary and basic? Just curious.

 

EDIT: In any case, I definitely think an item like this is the best AC balancing suggestion that I have heard, far and away. I much prefer for balance changes to be enacted through adding something, rather than taking away or nerfing something.

Edited by crockrocket, 23 March 2015 - 05:53 PM.

[OdinTheWise]

i think it would work best as large field generator that forces all mechs to the ground friendly or foe

[LoliconBukakke]

Why not just have EMPs also disable thrusters?

[IareDave]

I heard TOW rockets are pretty effective at knocking down mechs in the air.

[Silverfire]

A "gravity well" item, I could see it.

[moosa17]

I heard TOW rockets are pretty effective at knocking down mechs in the air.

I hear TOW rockets are the best at literally everything... Too bad not every mech is equipped with the most boring secondary.

[OdinTheWise]

A "gravity well" item, I could see it.

that is kind of what i had in mind but incumbering people too much is OP

[Houruck]

Why not just have EMPs also disable thrusters?

Because that way you can not boost away from your attacker even on the ground.

I do not like the air meta, but solving it with another mechanic that is not fun to play against is almost just as bad.

[crockrocket]

Why not just have EMPs also disable thrusters?

Because EMPs would be OP as fuzzy bunny

[Black_Knight_Sky]

You could have it be like a beacon that sprays out a gas that damages you when firing thrusters, that way you can still do it, but it'll tear you up to do so.

[shosca]

I thought the counter to AC was a cheezateer..

 

/me runs

[OdinTheWise]

it has been brought to my attention that the AC is mostly a problem with the Europeans 

[Interrobang87]

We do so love to fly.

I like where your heads at thinking outside the box but it's been "proven" that you should never try to balance a mechanic by adding another mechanic.

If you do it starts a pseudo arms race where if you add a to counter b you then need to add c to help b stay viable and d to make sure b with c aren't overpowered when used together (so on and so forth)

[Erzunterweltler]

Before adding such a game mechanic I would suggest to just nerf the Orbs, because otherwise Orb Sucker Scout would probably be more dominant than it already is.

[OdinTheWise]

We do so love to fly.

I like where your heads at thinking outside the box but it's been "proven" that you should never try to balance a mechanic by adding another mechanic.

If you do it starts a pseudo arms race where if you add a to counter b you then need to add c to help b stay viable and d to make sure b with c aren't overpowered when used together (so on and so forth)

i dont think this type of item would get much use in higher skill matches. i know i wouldnt use the item. its somthing that you use as an alternative to coping with flying 

[CrimsonKaim]

No no and no. No movement CC in Hawken absolutely not. The only acceptable CC items/features are:

EMP
Scambler
HeatCharge
Blindness

AoE effects
DoT effects
Everything else which does NOT affect movement. No slows/snares/fuel burn outs or whatever. No no no Nein!

Edited by FakeName, 25 March 2015 - 11:23 PM.

[dorobo]

I heard TOW rockets are pretty effective at knocking down mechs in the air.

grenades too

[dorobo]

What if give more freedom to movement on the ground as a counter? Make ground dodge longer? or let player choose the distance he wants to dodge. dodge till button pressed type of thing? If dodge is longer fuel is used up. Maybe even so you have to choose between this internal or air one.

[CrimsonKaim]

What if give more freedom to movement on the ground as a counter? Make ground dodge longer? or let player choose the distance he wants to dodge. dodge till button pressed type of thing? If dodge is longer fuel is used up. Maybe even so you have to choose between this internal or air one.

I think this instant acceleration is the problem. Imagine flying mechs have to actual build up speed first so it's a smooth dodge. On the ground you have more control of your mech and you can use your legs but in the air you only have your thruster. Make air dodhes smooth dodges.

Edited by FakeName, 26 March 2015 - 02:58 AM.

[MomOw]

I like the rock / paper / bulbausaur stuff, what about modifying hellfire so that they counter air mech efficiently ?

(reduce the locking delay when the mech use thruster... as a good IR warhead)

[LarryLaffer]

What if give more freedom to movement on the ground as a counter?

This can be a viable option... maybe. The question is how to implement it. Should it be as internal as a built-in mechanic? A friend of mine suggested double dodge internal.

I think this instant acceleration is the problem. Imagine flying mechs have to actual buid up speed first so it's a smooth dodge. On the ground you have more control of your mech and you can use your legs but in the air you only have your thruster. Make air dodhes smooth dodges.

^This! I already posted about it on old forums, that air dodges are inertia-free and thus unnatural. This is one of possible fixes to air dodges.

Edited by LarryLaffer, 26 March 2015 - 01:52 AM.

[dorobo]

I think this instant acceleration is the problem. Imagine flying mechs have to actual buid up speed first so it's a smooth dodge. On the ground you have more control of your mech and you can use your legs but in the air you only have your thruster. Make air dodhes smooth dodges.

 

Ye was thinking similar thing just the other way around you slowdown after initial hard pulse of boost. It would still help dodge enemy fire but would be more smooth making it pleasure to use and also easier to track and hit in the air.

[RedVan]

Counter to AC is... aim...

 

And AC is far from OP so doesn't really need to be specifically countered in such a way....

 

But, I would be open to seeing other ideas too.

 

Here's my list of the current counters to AC:

 

 

Flak, mini flak, reflak, KLA (flak mode): Perfect vs AC

SMC, AR, vulcan: Perfect vs AC

GL and TOW: Perfect vs AC

Heat:  Takes a little skill, but certainly excellent vs AC once you take a little time to learn how

RPR, slug, sabot, KE:  Perfect vs AC

HF and seeker...  do I really need to mention that these are perfect for AC

EOC:  Takes a little skill, but certainly very usable vs AC.  I use it on my raider and have no problems hitting AC mechs

KLA projectile:  Probably the hardest thing to hit an AC mech with as it is slow ROF and no remote det.  But, certainly doable.

Rev-GL:  High ROF projectile... if you cannot figure out how to lead with a high ROF weapon, you've got bigger problems than an AC mech.

Edited by RedVan, 26 March 2015 - 02:55 AM.

[Grollourdo]

Hey guys i like the idea of a placable item to nullify the ac XD 

 

its like the heat giver item thingy XD

 

 

i think it could be like idk ..... an air pusher or something???? it pushes away air so that the air compressor cant condense air XD there fore making ac maybe less effective ? idk (nullifying it i think is a bit too much XD but like idk cripleing it with the thing should be great XD )

 

the thing with this is that u put it down EVERYONE in its proximity gets it so yeah for people who done want ac to be used take this! XD plus its good for nullifying trolls? XD

 

 

and maybe in the realistinc measure: why not do like the notifcation system like when uve been locked on with hell fire only here it says low oxygen or something like that XD

 

 

(i dont think the item should dammage the user since hes in a mech with its proper oxygen (i think) so yeah XD thats the thing XD 

 

 

maybe if u no like this idea then brainstorm? XD 

 

 

bye guys 

 

 

groll XD

[Dess]

So then guys, what's this counter to the Air Compressor on mechs? ESPECIALLY light mechs? because besides locking them with Rocketeers or Bruisers in open maps, you pretty much cannot touch them. I literally ran into a scout with an AC in the wreckage map with an assault g2 mech. Before I could even spool my guns to shoot it, it had jumped in the air, changed direction completely with the AC and taken my armour from 515 down to 34 within that single second. How is that a balanced approach? How do I even begin to counter that? I shouldn't need to be localized to two mech types to take down anyone with that internal. I contend that this mechanic is game breaking. It's bad enough dealing with ultra fast scouts, sneaky infils with the bouncy bomb thingy without tacking on something that makes them nigh on impossible to kill. I say remove the damn thing. Every class should be killable with the next class. If one class becomes almost untouchable UNLESS you use a rocketeer or bruiser [again, in open maps], the game is halfway broken already.

[Panzermanathod]

Saying to people "Just Aim" to counter AC is pretty selfish. Not everyone has the optimal setup to really do that. High ping, lack of experience, not very good framerate, lack of weapons/position, being over 60 years old, generally lack of ESP in the human race where most of us are able to accurately predict and react to sudden changes in direction...

[Hyginos]

Saying to people "Just Aim" to counter AC is pretty selfish. Not everyone has the optimal setup to really do that. High ping, lack of experience, not very good framerate, lack of weapons/position, being over 60 years old, generally lack of ESP in the human race where most of us are able to accurately predict and react to sudden changes in direction...

 

Mechs are universally more mobile on the ground. A mech in the air can usually be avoided by a mech on the ground that is not out of position.

 

I've never really understood the problem with AC. The horizontal transnational is practically identical to a ground dodge, as though the mech was on a platform dodging normally.  With that said I can understand the frustration with ground to air combat, as it makes it a bit more difficult for weapons that depend on impact splash.

[eth0]

I love spamming hellfire lock on AC fuzzy bunnies.

[Sylhiri]

I like the rock / paper / bulbausaur stuff, what about modifying hellfire so that they counter air mech efficiently ?

(reduce the locking delay when the mech use thruster... as a good IR warhead)

 

Considering how many people have and use Air Compressors are you going to give everyone hellfires too?

[IareDave]

Honestly, if you're ability to hit people with air comps is bad, then you suck with y-axis aiming. It's that simple, own up to it and maybe you'll be able to improve.

Most shooters focus on the x-axis plane, such as the old CoDs, battlefield, counter strike etc. so it's no surprise that people will have trouble once people take flight if you're not used to games such as UT/Quake.

[Panzermanathod]

I'm not saying hitting mechs using AC is impossible. It's just impractical in some instances.

 

I mean, my aim isn't too great, but due to my relative inexperience with FPSs (The FPS I've played the most was Resident Evil Survivor), as well as a framerate that tends to drop in hectic situations, I don't expect it to get much better for a long, long while.

 

I'm not someone who'll say that AC needs a counter agent, as I disagree. Nor will I say that AC is easy to counter, as I disagree. I will say that not everyone is a high tier player with optimum computer setups and loads of FPS experience, and brushing off complaints with AC by saying "Git Gud, lol" is not the right way respond to it.

[TheCrimsonBinome]

Critical damage could reduce air speed, Air compressor could have an internal cooldown or a charged use based system, you could increase the amount of fuel needed to air dash, either way there needs to be something changed imo due to the fact and air compressor on almost any light mech is nearly a straight counter to a fair amount of mechs when using certain weapon sets. That being said if other mechanics lead to more straight/hard counters then AC may not need to be altered but as it stands I kinda feel it needs some development

[Lion_ThunderPants]

What ever happened to the arguement over making it a universal mechanic? Or at least a lower lever internal? I dont want it removed or hindered, its fun.

Also someone mentioned farther ground dodge distance. How about simply shortening air dodge distance? The current distances used arent enough to totally dodge a well-placed TOW/Grenade anyways.

[Flifang]

I for one am all for new items that add depth to the game, however I do not like the word counter in reference to things in hawken. A game like hawken is not balanced by checks and counters, it does so through actual balance. This isn't some glorified version of Rock Paper Scissors, it's a FPS. I had the same conversation with a gentleman a few days ago about the scanner. The scrambler doesn't counter the scanner and really you shouldn't have to counter anything in this game. Everything you have as a tool gives you an advantage but the scanner itself takes a button press to make it effective. It's far too strong as it is. A FPS has far too many variable circumstances to add in things like counters. A near impossible fight can turn somebody's way through the use of a wall to splash damage onto.

[Dew]

Instead of a gravity well or disabling thrusters, if you wanted something that fits in the HAWKEN universe you might consider an anti-cavorite field or something. Something that nullifies the anti-gravity properties of the stuff axes are made of.

 

Then they can't fly but it makes sense that they could still boost on the ground.

Edited by Dew, 29 May 2015 - 07:18 PM.

[SatelliteJack]

What if the AC comes installed on every mech, so people can skip the grind and choose whether or not to equip it from the get-go?

[Kopra]

Yeah, AC isn't a problem. Just equip TOW. Problem solved.

 

What's this? Hellfire tracking sucking balls? Just equip TOW. Problem solved.

 

A lot of cover being useless because one can simply detonate a TOW while you're behind it, while for other secondaries it might not be even physically possible? Fight fire with fire. Just equip TOW. Problem solved.

 

Your secondary is not doing enough DPS? Just equip TOW. Problem solved.

Your secondary not being effective at close range? Just equip TOW. Problem solved.

Your secondary not being good at midrange? Just equip TOW. Problem solved.

Your secondary not being good at long range? Just equip TOW. Problem solved.

 

Everyone is using TOW because of its effectiveness and it's making the game stale? Just equip TOW. Problem solved.

 

Oh, I forgot, also git gud with the easiest to use and the most effective secondary in the game.

[Source_Mystic]

The counter should be rockets but helllfires suck at the moment. but there are other in game ability's that work great for a class harassers if they want to get in your grill.