18 replies to this topic

[M1lkshake]

First of all, thanks to everyone who participated in TPG's second cup last Saturday. The winners were:

 

1. The HufflePuffles (Thirdeye, Merl61, and Bkcat1)
2. Huckin Fawken (Breadeffect, Cond0m, Dew)
3. The Tryhardigans (Hestoned, x9x8x7x, comicsans)

The MC awards are on their way, and all in all, me and LoC_TR considered the cup to be a success.

 

However, the true purpose of this thread is to allow everyone who participated in or observed the cup to provide feedback on what we can do to make future cups better. For example, the mech class restriction rules were changed shortly before the matches began, causing some confusion and frustration for some teams. In the future, we will be keeping our rulesets consistent from their introduction until the day of the cup itself.

 

Secondly, we'd like to hear your ideas for future cup game modes or rules. This includes suggestions for adjusting anything from game modes, to the number of players per team, to additional gameplay enhancements (no radar being the popular choice thus far). Before we get crazy, please keep in mind our limitations, which include but are not limited to:

 

1. The extent to which we can modify servers (match length or score maximum in particular).
2. The time limitation (cups are one day events - how many hours should it last?)
3. Existing game modes (we cannot create CTF Hawken, for example).
4. Player population and realistic interest (our last cup limited the teams to three players and we barely managed 8 teams).

 

You get the idea. Whatever suggestions you have must be in the realm of possibility.

 

 

 

In short, please answer the following two questions:

1. What didn't you like about the last cup that you believe we should improve upon, and why?
2. Should future cups be different (in terms of gameplay)? If yes, what should we try to introduce or remove to make the games more challenging/interesting, and why?

 

Thank you in advance for your input.

[Amidatelion]

Dammit, I wish I hadn't deleted my PMs which had some of the ideas I wanted to try out. Anyways, in no particular order or importance:

 

1. Draft Cup - Someone else suggested this for TPG. Players sign up, captains are chosen by lotto or otherwise, captains draft from lowest captain MMR up. While I don't think that it's the most viable thing in an amateur comp league, I think it's at least worth investigating and the Cups give the opportunity to do so.
2. Item/Internal Changes - I think at least one Cup should be dedicated to no dropped orbs, with Orblord internals still allowed, in order to test suggestion here.
3. With 3v3, you may want to consider dropping kill limit to 20 and time limit to 5-7. One of the issues I have with getting people to attend is that a Cup basically takes up an entire evening. Anything to mitigate that might be worth looking into.

[crockrocket]

Last cup seemed like it had a greater range of skills between teams than previous cups - that's a good thing. I did have a thought about that, though I'm not sure if it should lead to a change or not.

 

Traditionally tournaments are seeded such that the best team will face the worst team in the first round (think of March Madness for example). This makes sense as it provides the best chance for the top places to actually reflect team skill, rather than a team sneaking in because of an easier path, which is the major advantage to this method. I can see this being the best way to do things, and I will obviously still participate in future tournaments if this is the case.

 

Another way to organize things, however, would be to pit similarly skilled teams against each other in the beginning. This might help encourage teams of all skill levels to participate, and would ensure that everyone gets some interesting matches. I think it would still be possible to balance this because of the double elimination format, i.e. loser of high skill game one plays loser of low skill game one for their second match. Likewise, the winners of those games would face each other. Obviously the risk here is that a good team might not make it as far as they could have, but that might be a valid tradeoff in the interest of giving everyone at least one competitive match.

[LoC_TR]

Last cup seemed like it had a greater range of skills between teams than previous cups - that's a good thing. I did have a thought about that, though I'm not sure if it should lead to a change or not.

 

Traditionally tournaments are seeded such that the best team will face the worst team in the first round (think of March Madness for example). This makes sense as it provides the best chance for the top places to actually reflect team skill, rather than a team sneaking in because of an easier path, which is the major advantage to this method. I can see this being the best way to do things, and I will obviously still participate in future tournaments if this is the case.

 

Another way to organize things, however, would be to pit similarly skilled teams against each other in the beginning. This might help encourage teams of all skill levels to participate, and would ensure that everyone gets some interesting matches. I think it would still be possible to balance this because of the double elimination format, i.e. loser of high skill game one plays loser of low skill game one for their second match. Likewise, the winners of those games would face each other. Obviously the risk here is that a good team might not make it as far as they could have, but that might be a valid tradeoff in the interest of giving everyone at least one competitive match.

 

 

I would've really enjoyed actually seeding teams based on skill but it would only feel justified if we had something like 16 teams instead. With the attendance how it was it would not have matter much how I seeded the teams. Imho the double elimination helped curbed the 'one and done' feeling, in all honesty though most of us could have picked the top three teams in the tournament from the start. I would've liked to see a range of skill level in the tournaments as well, though it feels like a microcosm of the TPG league. What we really need is to shake things up, it goes unsaid for the most part but the better players tend to stick together like glue, this game is all about whom you're fighting next to and if you're not confident in your teammate how can you be confident in yourself? Unfortunately 24 people is meager  for a 3v3 tournament, if we had double that number maybe we can do what you and others have suggested until then were just gonna have to play with what we got. 

[LoC_TR]

 

Dammit, I wish I hadn't deleted my PMs which had some of the ideas I wanted to try out. Anyways, in no particular order or importance:

 

1. Draft Cup - Someone else suggested this for TPG. Players sign up, captains are chosen by lotto or otherwise, captains draft from lowest captain MMR up. While I don't think that it's the most viable thing in an amateur comp league, I think it's at least worth investigating and the Cups give the opportunity to do so.
2. Item/Internal Changes - I think at least one Cup should be dedicated to no dropped orbs, with Orblord internals still allowed, in order to test suggestion here.
3. With 3v3, you may want to consider dropping kill limit to 20 and time limit to 5-7. One of the issues I have with getting people to attend is that a Cup basically takes up an entire evening. Anything to mitigate that might be worth looking into.

 

 

1. This is actually a great idea.

 

3. We really wanted to adjust the time and had plans to do so but due to some technical issues on reloaded's side and some general server issues as you have witnessed for yourself we couldn't get either limit dropped. :(

 

17. reloaded did give us prizes though so thats cool.

[PoopSlinger]

+1 for shorter time limit, most people seem to agree on that.

 

But for gameplay changes I have an idea.

SHitty gimp comp.   Make it so every team has to play one rocketeer (or G2A) in their lineup.  Or every team has to run a G2Raider; we could call it the Turkeybowl.  Then you let each team pick which person on the opposing team is stuck in the sh1t-tier mech.

[Hyginos]

+1 for shorter time limit, most people seem to agree on that.

 

But for gameplay changes I have an idea.

SHitty gimp comp.   Make it so every team has to play one rocketeer (or G2A) in their lineup.  Or every team has to run a G2Raider; we could call it the Turkeybowl.  Then you let each team pick which person on the opposing team is stuck in the sh1t-tier mech.

 

I propose the following:

 

Each team must have at least:

• one G2 mech.
• one EOC repeater
• one mech without items or internals

Alternatively, only mechs on the free week rotation could be allowed.

 

Ultra-Hardcore mode with no radar, no repair, no indicator, and no orb drops is tense and chaotic. 

Edited by Hyginos, 27 July 2015 - 06:11 AM.

[Amidatelion]

I propose the following:

Each team must have at least:

• one G2 mech.
• one EOC repeater
• one mech without items or internals

Alternatively, only mechs on the free week rotation could be allowed.

Ultra-Hardcore mode with no radar, no repair, no indicator, and no orb drops is tense and chaotic.

I find this proposal ludicrous, restrictive to no good point and completely unbalanced.

Let's do it.

[comic_sans]

I find this proposal ludicrous, restrictive to no good point and completely unbalanced.

Let's do it.

 

I support all of these horrible ideas, but a good number of people will be turned off simply because a restriction is something that can be opposed.  I'd personally love a bunch of different mech comps for different cups, but I expect the turnout to be way less than this.

 

I'd love a g2r/g2a/tech lineup or some other silly gimp mech for the third, though.

[M1lkshake]

The no-orbs-allowed mode might be interesting, if only for the sake of experimenting to see what combat would be like.

 

As far as picking what mech another player has to play, keep in mind not everyone has the G2 Raider, and the same could be said for any other mech you have in mind.

[CraftyDus]

Chiming in for a turkey bowl draft cup (w/ g2 exception, of course)

 

We've had scores of well run, well documented draft cups in day of defeat at TPG.

 

They are really fun and great for building community, in that players from a variety of teams/skill levels colate in new and interesting ways.

 

Was a great way for more experienced players to mentor newer players as well giving lower divisioned players an opportunity to showcase their talent that perhaps had previously escaped the scrutiny of older more insular competetitors.

 

Also a nice place to put a cup weekend was always on holiday off-weekends from reg-scheduled season matches and between pre and reg season as well as the break before playoffs. 

[Nept]

Was a great way for more experienced players to mentor newer players as well giving lower divisioned players an opportunity to showcase their talent that perhaps had previously escaped the scrutiny of older more insular competetitors.

 

"ARE YOU GUYS fuzzy bunnyNG BLIND?!"

[CraftyDus]

"ARE YOU GUYS fuzzy bunnyNG BLIND?!"

 

 

 

Draft cups are rad in my experience.

 

They get players cross-pollinating and pull a league together even more than they already do by default, particularly in the case of DoD's comp scene which after over a decade had stratified in ways I'd have difficulty summarizing.

 

It took me years to get to being pick 3 or 4 in a 12-man with those monsters.

All I'm saying is I woulda been the fat kid for several more years even, if it weren't for those draft cups.

 

It was an awesome way for open scrubs to get some time on a team with old money lan players in invite.

And also a great exercise in patience for the invite players who had to pick from a "pool of nobodies" and "carry their idiot a$ses" to a ring.

 

Our scene is, in contrast to them, marked by this new generation's proclivity with being inclusive and nice to each other.

Which is easy to see in the way our league, in addition to most hawken events,  already does much to service this sort of community building.

[Hyginos]

I would point out that a draft cup, in addition to the points crafty mentioned above, allows players to participate without organising a full team ahead of time and allows the cup to run without reliance on full groups of people showing up. Inclusive though we may be the Hawken community has proven to be somewhat less than punctual at times.

[Amidatelion]

I would point out that a draft cup, in addition to the points crafty mentioned above, allows players to participate without organising a full team ahead of time and allows the cup to run without reliance on full groups of people showing up. Inclusive though we may be the Hawken community has proven to be somewhat less than punctual at times.

*indelicate, asinine snort*

[comic_sans]

I would love a draft cup with every team having a balance of more and lesser skilled players.

 

I want the turkey bowl more though.  Come on, it already has a too-good name and everything and someone can probably con Badtings into whipping up some irrationally good g2r related art for it.

 

And that's a derisive snort, amid.  There's a word for exactly that great sound.

Edited by clomic_snuts, 31 July 2015 - 06:14 PM.

[Amidatelion]

And that's a derisive snort, amid.  There's a word for exactly that great sound.

 

I was going for horse-like for sheer volume, came up with asinine, decided it fit perfectly.

[WmMoneyFrmMissouri]

Draft cup sounds baller

[OdinTheWise]

 

 

I want the turkey bowl more though.  Come on, it already has a too-good name and everything and someone can probably con Badtings into whipping up some irrationally good g2r related art for it.