311 replies to this topic

[Xacius]

Does anyone recall the original justification for moving from cooldown to charge based items? I can't seem to find the patch notes.

I remember discussing the matter with Vana at the in-house testing that I attended.  The decision was made in an effort to "prevent stomps," in a sense, whereby the more-skilled party would eventually run out of items and be at a disadvantage against opposing players that were constantly dying.  

 

The issue with the current approach (refreshing items only on death) is that it essentially rewards poor play/dying.  It's also easy to cheese, as I demonstrated in TPG Season 1 on numerous occasions.  The user can simply avoid the enemy for 20-30 seconds and kill themselves, effectively replenishing their items while preventing the other team from scoring a point.  

 

The old developers' justification for the current system is questionable.   

Developer's Note: The simplification of the item system allows players to identify exactly what an item does when they see it, without having to worry about how powerful it is. It also allows for a much more balanced player experience. MK-I items sometimes felt useless for having low stats and some MK-III items felt too strong. The transition to normalized stats for items allows us to make all items useful and more balanced. Having different charges makes the slots meaningful and still allows players to make meaningful choices.

The slots are only as meaningful as the items are powerful.  The Repair Charge is a prime example of this.  Also, the current system favors focusing on two items over a one-one-one split.  With two items, you have a total of 4 available (either 3+1 from a MK-III and MK-I, or 2+2 from a MK-II and MK-II).  If the items were all cooldown-based, players could mix and match without losing out compared to a more focused approach.

 

 

More importantly, it would prevent players from spamming a single item three times in a row.  Repair Orbs are strong right now because a given player can place 3 within 14 seconds (this number is reduced to 10 seconds with the "Item Recharger" equipped).   If a player uses EMPs properly, they can disable another player for 3-4 seconds, and then 3 seconds later throw another.  Given that a single EMP can change the outcome of a team fight, it's just plain silly for a single player to have that much control potential.  With a cooldown system, you basically have one shot per encounter.   That's much more reasonable, imo.  

 

edit: maths

 

The old items scaled in strength based on their tier.  A simple solution to this problem is to make every item the same strength, regardless of their tier, and simply scale the cooldown time based on the tier.   The exact numbers should vary from item to item and would probably require some testing to balance properly.

 

My opinion on numbers:

Spoiler

The cooldown reduction should have diminishing returns.  For repair orbs (let's say the MK-I starts at 60s cooldown), it should be something minimal like a 12s reduction from MK-I to MK-III.  This would encourage players to use multiple items, while still providing a measurable benefit for focusing on one or two.  

 

Current items that are less useful could have a shorter cooldown.  The Barricade and Heat Charge come to mind.  Ex: MK-I Barricade starts at 30s and can be reduced to 20s on a MK-III.  

Edited by Xacius, 21 January 2016 - 09:31 PM.

[CraftyDus]

Word

[Kopra]

More importantly, it would prevent players from spamming a single item three times in a row.  Repair Orbs are strong right now because a given player can place 3 within 21 seconds (this number is reduced to 15 seconds with the "Item Recharger" internal).

[/spoiler]

 

3 orbs in 14 seconds or (10 with regenerator), if you assume the first orb is at t = 0, second at 7 s and third at 14 s.

 

The rest of the post is spot on. There's so much potential for balancing with just tweaking the recharge timers based on the mk1-3 version and having a static item strength. Maybe for some items that might risk not being worth to have as mk3 unless the bonuses are really heavy, you could have some very minor perks for having a higher version, such as turrets deploying a little faster, just enough to feel warm and fuzzy inside, in addition to a shortened recharge time.

 

A problem might arise, if the recharge time is too long, say, for investing only on 2-slot items, the said player could vomit out those items, possibly use the ability, die, and carry his or her weight based on item and ability usage alone. Suicidal Timmy Technician could for example, throw an orb for additional healing, use a Scrambler to setup a push, then finally push while using an EMP and Green beam. The Technician, while dying, contributed a lot in that short time with minimal effort. No matter what the enemy team does, they lose. Timmy gets his toys back to again do this great maneuver, your team dies, or both.

[HugeGuts]

Timmy gets his toys back to again do this great maneuver

 

This was an issue when items were on cool down. The very obvious solution is to have the cool down persist through death.

 

Also, I am skeptical about a varying cool down significantly helping with item balance solely by itself. If it isn't useful now, it won't be anymore useful despite being able to use it more. This was also an issue when items were on cool down. Hologram, anyone?

Edited by HugeGuts, 21 January 2016 - 07:01 AM.

[TheButtSatisfier]

A problem might arise, if the recharge time is too long, say, for investing only on 2-slot items, the said player could vomit out those items, possibly use the ability, die, and carry his or her weight based on item and ability usage alone... Timmy gets his toys back to again do this great maneuver, your team dies, or both.

 

This could be solved by not letting deaths reset cooldowns. That might disproportionately punish poor players though.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 21 January 2016 - 07:46 AM.

[Kopra]

This was an issue when items were on cool down. The very obvious solution is to have the cool down persist through death.

 

Also, I am skeptical about a varying cool down significantly helping with item balance solely by itself. If it isn't useful now, it won't be anymore useful despite being able to use it more. This was also an issue when items were on cool down. Hologram, anyone?

 

The Hologram wasn't any match to the foot biting EMP whose mk3 was what, 4.5 seconds?, mk-3 orbs that healed 220 (that you could make 40% higher and absorb 50% faster with the old internals), shields that you could shoot from inside or Detonators that did much more damage. (150ish?) It was a fun item, though, and you could occasionally get a situational advantage as secondary cooldowns were longer, giving an opening to push. Taking the Hologram meant that you were not taking a more powerful and less situational item instead, though.

 

Somewhat of a simple fix, a band aid, for the suicidal long-duration cooldown item and ability users could be as follows:

 

Having to wait for the full recharge times after death regardless of mechs and items chosen, excluding the first spawn. So instead of having cooldown timer carry over death, it would always reset to whatever is the cooldown timer for that ability. Raiders, for example, would have to wait 55 seconds after spawning before being able to use Blitz. If you're using items with long cooldowns, those would also be on the max cooldown duration. Why I'm excluding the first spawn is because there's the startup sequence and waiting, so it wouldn't become a race of hitting the launch button as soon as possible to get items and ability ready. Some mechs and items would be more "death friendly" than others (with short cooldown abilities and items).

[DallasCreeper]

-snip-

The Item Recharger takes up 1 Item slot, it is not an internal. 

[Xacius]

The Hologram wasn't any match to the foot biting EMP whose mk3 was what, 4.5 seconds?, mk-3 orbs that healed 220 (that you could make 40% higher and absorb 50% faster with the old internals), shields that you could shoot from inside or Detonators that did much more damage. (150ish?) It was a fun item, though, and you could occasionally get a situational advantage as secondary cooldowns were longer, giving an opening to push. Taking the Hologram meant that you were not taking a more powerful and less situational item instead, though.

 

Somewhat of a simple fix, a band aid, for the suicidal long-duration cooldown item and ability users could be as follows:

 

Having to wait for the full recharge times after death regardless of mechs and items chosen, excluding the first spawn. So instead of having cooldown timer carry over death, it would always reset to whatever is the cooldown timer for that ability. Raiders, for example, would have to wait 55 seconds after spawning before being able to use Blitz. If you're using items with long cooldowns, those would also be on the max cooldown duration. Why I'm excluding the first spawn is because there's the startup sequence and waiting, so it wouldn't become a race of hitting the launch button as soon as possible to get items and ability ready. Some mechs and items would be more "death friendly" than others (with short cooldown abilities and items).

I don't think this solution is the best idea.  While I don't like the current implementations, I believe that the reset on death option isn't a bad idea either (assuming that it isn't the only way to refresh items).  

 

By the time the player spawns in and makes it back to the fight where they died, the opposing team's items would be close to being ready.  The old system was nearly ideal, not including individual item balance and the scaling of each tier.  

Edited by Xacius, 22 January 2016 - 11:50 AM.

[ShadowWarg]

I don't think this solution is the best idea.  While I don't like the current implementations, I believe that the reset on death option isn't a bad idea either (assuming that it isn't the only way to refresh items).  

 

By the time the player spawns in and makes it back to the fight where they died, the opposing team's items would be close to being ready.  The old system was nearly ideal, not including individual item balance and the scaling of each tier.  

Whoo Hoo, no more waits for approval post!

 

The previous recharge system worked yeah, but with the changes to the way items are now, tiers and all that, I don't if that method is still viable. The game recognizes suicides, so I think the simplest option would be, just not restock items at all. It a harsh solution I know.

 

Though I do agree, the way some of the items functioned before were great. I miss the old bubble shield you could shoot though from the inside but allowed splash damage to get through as well. I know it was a glitch but it make the shield balanced imho.

[Superkamikazee]

If suicide is the fear for resetting item cooldowns, would it be possible to punish suicides by forcing item cooldowns upon respawning afer a suicide?

[Amidatelion]

If suicide is the fear for resetting item cooldowns, would it be possible to punish suicides by forcing item cooldowns upon respawning afer a suicide?

 

This would ruin DM.

[TheButtSatisfier]

This would ruin DM.

 

At the risk of going down the slippery "we'll balance a tweak with another tweak" slope:

 

The death upon suicide cool down could be made more intelligent by only applying if you were the one who applied majority damage to yourself X second before death.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 22 January 2016 - 07:44 PM.

[SP_GEA]

I just want to make a valid point that hawken is stuttering allot lately it is not as smooth as it once were, i am requesting that the admin reset the servers to free up memory for synchronization sake.

[Kopra]

I don't think this solution is the best idea.  While I don't like the current implementations, I believe that the reset on death option isn't a bad idea either (assuming that it isn't the only way to refresh items).  

 

By the time the player spawns in and makes it back to the fight where they died, the opposing team's items would be close to being ready.  The old system was nearly ideal, not including individual item balance and the scaling of each tier.  

 

It would depend on the mech, items, and gamemode. As the respawn time is 10 seconds (15s for siege), and if we assume a 10 second travel time to a location of interest (like say, to the AA from spawn on most maps as an Assault), the initial killer would have a 10-15 second advantage and is 20-25 seconds into recharging items and abilities, while the one who died, would then be 10-15 seconds into recharging items. That would be enough time to mostly use cheap (recharge time wise) items and abilities, while items and abilities on longer cooldowns would be down for both parties. The one who died, may consider to respawn in a mech that becomes fully functional sooner to counter the killer that takes longer to get into his or her full strength... Hologram Blockade Bruiser becomes the new counter-meta. 

[ATX22]

It would depend on the mech, items, and gamemode. As the respawn time is 10 seconds (15s for siege), and if we assume a 10 second travel time to a location of interest (like say, to the AA from spawn on most maps as an Assault), the initial killer would have a 10-15 second advantage and is 20-25 seconds into recharging items and abilities, while the one who died, would then be 10-15 seconds into recharging items. That would be enough time to mostly use cheap (recharge time wise) items and abilities, while items and abilities on longer cooldowns would be down for both parties. The one who died, may consider to respawn in a mech that becomes fully functional sooner to counter the killer that takes longer to get into his or her full strength... Hologram Blockade Bruiser becomes the new counter-meta. 

 

Just use the F2P model and turn them into consumables that you have to pay a high HC amount to refill or a reduced MC amount to refill.  It's not like Hawken doesn't need a credit sink.  

 

Yes, I know, horrible idea. 

[ShadowWarg]

Just use the F2P model and turn them into consumables that you have to pay a high HC amount to refill or a reduced MC amount to refill.  It's not like Hawken doesn't need a credit sink.  

 

Yes, I know, horrible idea. 

Even if it was a joke I wish I could down vote this

[ATX22]

Even if it was a joke I wish I could down vote this

 

LOL, why?  The Reloaded crew working on Hawken already stated that they're not going to treat Hawken like other "Reloaded" games have been treated, so it's not like I'm giving anyone any ideas. =p

 

Like rent-able weapons for MC, RNG crates, MC only consumables and mechs. 

Edited by ATX22, 23 January 2016 - 11:40 PM.

[HugeGuts]

Another video of "Hawken then."

 

 

That all-out slug fest in the last two and 1/2 minutes is what sold me on Hawken for good. Long-term customer! But fights like that don't happen anymore! Getting another version of Hawken that lets something like this video happen again and again is seriously the only reason why I stick around. The forums, at least. I barely play the game nowadays.

[CraftyDus]

Hawken is better now than in that video.
It's not just that the game itself isn't as limited like it (so obviously) was.
But after watching those players perform like most day 1 novices, I'd say part of it is that the players have had the time to get so much better.

[Superkamikazee]

Hawken is better now than in that video.

Some things are better now, some things were better then.

[JackVandal]

Another video of "Hawken then."

 

 

Iv got to ask if the maps are bright and vibrant like this now? i ask because i play on potato laptop with appropriate settings, what does hawken look like now with max everything and 60 fps?

 

Edit: i think the thing i like about the old hud is that it looks a lot more analog than the current one.

Edited by JackVandal, 24 January 2016 - 01:32 PM.

[Sylhiri]

But after watching those players perform like most day 1 novices, I'd say part of it is that the players have had the time to get so much better.

 

When people started out in Alpha/CB player skill was roughly the same and everyone progressed in skill more or less together with differences in each person. I think that was part of the nostalgia, you grew with the community instead of someone vastly more skilled kicking the **** out of you and telling you to deal with it. 

 

 

 

Iv got to ask if the maps are bright and vibrant like this now? i ask because i play on potato laptop with appropriate settings, what does hawken look like now with max everything and 60 fps?

 

Some maps look less vibrant, they changed it for whatever reason. Sahara looks far more dull then it was before.

 

Edit: damn you forum editor.

Edited by Sylhiri, 24 January 2016 - 03:53 PM.

[ShadowWarg]

Some things are better now, some things were better then.

Yeah but not many people can point out what was better back then. It is partly what Sylhiri said, the nostalgia, but honestly I can think of quite a few things.

 

Yes the game is smoother now, more streamlined I guess, but the presentation in the original Hawken, believe it or not, I find much better. They changed a lot of the visual effects from back then and honestly I had an easier time visual confirming my hits than in the new build. Damaging effects and the likes feel turned down, so when I get hit I don't really feel it, or feel the sense of danger when low on health.

 

The game was simpler back then also, in a good way. Watching that video reminded me of some of the gameplay differences; weren't so many options for internals, weapons were limited but mixed and match with different mechs, dodging was still tied to fuel. Movement also felt more clunky, it felt more like a machine stomping its way though a map, now it feel like I'm gliding most times (I guess this is more debatable). Also, the one I think is the most important is health/damage. Damage took off marginally less health, and repairing was slower, there weren't as many healing options back then so we didn't have a large as a health pool as we have now. Which IMHO was much better.

[Sylhiri]

Honestly I think Hawken then and now has more or less the same amount of problems, some of them are exactly the same.

 

Repair orbs were a problem to balance back in the days as they are now, differences between C and A classes remain a problem, EMP I would say finds as much use today as back in the day where it was broken as ****. Map collision in the same damn maps are still a problem, Burst weapons and sustain weapons just traded places in power, the useless skill tree with cookie cutter design was replaced with another system with a cookie cutter design which was removed. etc.

[CraftyDus]

Another video of "Hawken then."

 

 

That all-out slug fest in the last two and 1/2 minutes is what sold me on Hawken for good. Long-term customer! But fights like that don't happen anymore! Getting another version of Hawken that lets something like this video happen again and again is seriously the only reason why I stick around. The forums, at least. I barely play the game nowadays.

 

 

this recent video shows how Hawken is played so much faster now than it was, and requires more from players trying to keep up

 

[DallasCreeper]

this recent video shows how Hawken is played so much faster now than it was, and requires more from players trying to keep up

 

Only true masters of Hawken can perform feats such as these.

[CraftyDus]

Only true masters of Hawken can perform feats such as these.

 

I deserver an A for effort tracking that bs with a turncap!

[DallasCreeper]

Indeed, A for Affort

[ShadowWarg]

Call me a wimp or a fuzzy bunny or whatever, but I think I prefer the slower pace of the older.

 

edit: I didn't know C class could move that fast......

Edited by ShadowWarg, 26 January 2016 - 09:51 AM.

[JeffMagnum]

this recent video shows how Hawken is played so much faster now than it was, and requires more from players trying to keep up

 

 

UT so slow

[JeffMagnum]

So I ran into presumably the same guy speedhacking and aimbotting in Incin under a different name (Disobedience) earlier today and it was pretty hilarious to watch since it was the most blatant cheating I've seen in almost three years. Sad that I ended up running into three different botters within an hour or two though

Edited by Brumbpo Tungus, 27 January 2016 - 09:23 AM.

[Garx]

Hawken is better now than in that video.
It's not just that the game itself isn't as limited like it (so obviously) was.
But after watching those players perform like most day 1 novices, I'd say part of it is that the players have had the time to get so much better.

totally disagree