311 replies to this topic

[SS396]

As I've already explained, you either misinterpreted Crafty's statement or deliberately crafted a strawman.
 
Fortunately, this is easily resolved.  Crafty, were you stating that content created by Hawken's competitive community would have the most views on youtube?

Nept, I already disproved this fallacy when I showed how to sort Youtube videos by "Upload date" Again the results of that search does not prove yours and Craftys now modified statement as being true. It is still very false.

https://www.youtube....y=Hawken -rifle

Try again though. The desperate attempts are amusing me.

[Sylhiri]

are you stating this as a solution to the "pay-to-win" argument?

 

Actually not at all.

[Nept]

What has kept Hawken alive is that it is a good game and we all love it. A subset of this love is TPG and events - events that the community has created and not the devs. Regardless, TPG only allows high-tier people to still play the game and not the majority of the population.

 

Wanted to address this post quickly.  TPG doesn't have any such restrictions.  In fact, we've an entire conference for lower-tier players and teams.  You can read more about that here.

 

New players and teams have contributed massively to TPG's success.  If you've some friends who play, and if you're at all interested in organized matches, try making a team and participating.

[crockrocket]

What Crafty wrote: �Most hawken created content that's out there is people involved in organized play.�

What SS396 wrote: �Ok, let's google. How do you explain the missing competitive matches holding the top view counts?"



This constitutes either poor reading comprehension from SS396 or an intentional strawman fallacy. From fallacyfiles.org, "Straw man is one of the best-named fallacies because it is memorable and vividly illustrates the nature of the fallacy. Imagine a fight in which one of the combatants sets up a man of straw, attacks it, then proclaims victory. All the while, the real opponent stands by untouched."

The "real opponent" in this case if Crafty's original assertion - that most Hawken-related content (i.e., videos) has been created by competitive players. That assertion doesn't, as SS396 incorrectly assumes, reference viewcount. Instead, it refers to the number of videos created. Crafty referenced views (by posting his youtube search) only in response to this red herring.

Easy there AJK

[spinningchurro]

Yay I made a popular thread

[Superkamikazee]

As for all the other stuff, here's my opinion.
 
VR Development
I agree with butt's assertion that VR would be both costly and risky.  I think it's important to remember that superkamikaze voiced his thoughts while referencing pacing.  He would like to see the game slowed, and promoting VR development supports that perspective.  Personally, I think the game's slow enough.
 

I get it, people here aren't into VR, but let me humor you for a moment.

Based on preorder number reports, production rate talk (100 units per hour starting in September production) for the retail version of Oculus. What that means is tha roughly 125,000 units have been accounted for more or less. They are still taking orders, but they won't be filled till June, and July, maybe that pushes the number to 200-250k, idk. Anyways, 125k is already more than the lifetime numbers of dk1 and dk2 combined. With that number in mind let's assume Hawken had good VR support in 2016, and it was featured on the Oculus store or thrown in with the headset like Eve Valkryie. For Hawkens player population to double what it is now, only 0.25% of Oculus owners would have to play Hawken. That's roughly 1 in 350 individuals.

I like those odds, and then there's still Vive. Again, just interesting to put into perspective, and it wold be cool to have the flood gates open for that type of opportunity. Granted it would take more than VR support in game, Hawken would need some serious gameplay changes / improvements as well, but that goes without saying. Hawken needed that for some time now, but I digress.

[ATX22]

I get it, people here aren't into VR, but let me humor you for a moment.

Based on preorder number reports, production rate talk (100 units per hour starting in September production) for the retail version of Oculus. What that means is tha roughly 125,000 units have been accounted for more or less. They are still taking orders, but they won't be filled till June, and July, maybe that pushes the number to 200-250k, idk. Anyways, 125k is already more than the lifetime numbers of dk1 and dk2 combined. With that number in mind let's assume Hawken had good VR support in 2016, and it was featured on the Oculus store or thrown in with the headset like Eve Valkryie. For Hawkens player population to double what it is now, only 0.25% of Oculus owners would have to play Hawken. That's roughly 1 in 350 individuals.

I like those odds, and then there's still Vive. Again, just interesting to put into perspective, and it wold be cool to have the flood gates open for that type of opportunity. Granted it would take more than VR support in game, Hawken would need some serious gameplay changes / improvements as well, but that goes without saying. Hawken needed that for some time now, but I digress.

 

If you throw in VR support along with the changes to the core gameplay to make VR a little more manageable, Hawken would likely no longer be the frantic bot destruction game it is now.  Slower paced games like MWO, I could see VR being great where the game is all about simulation and immersion in the whole huge mech combat experience.  Hawken, with it's current pace, CoD-TF2-CS mashup with mechs thrown in, VR could very well put people at a disadvantage if there's any lag with the VR displays / motion detection much less tunnel visioning unless you can crank up the FOV to the point that you lose out on the whole VR experience thing.

 

I wouldn't want to drop large sums of money into VR and the supporting HW for a free game only so that I could see some try-hard explode my mech with the illusion of depth tossed in.  

Edited by ATX22, 16 January 2016 - 12:02 AM.

[SS396]

Fortunately, this is easily resolved.  Crafty, were you stating that content created by Hawken's competitive community would have the most views on youtube?

No, he was saying that most of the video content created for Hawken is published by TPG players. I never misinterpreted that argument Nept. Nice attempt at misdirection though.  I even acknowledged it and responded to it posts ago HERE.  Pay attention now, I can see how you didn't read that post all the way through, but go back and peruse it again if you'd like.

 

He declared here:

Most hawken created content that's out there is people involved in organized play. 
This stuff is on google boys, you're the ones stuck in a bubble.

 

AND here:

Seriously dude, what have you done for hawken lately ever, while just in the last season of TPG 40-ish some odd matches not including playoffs happened each of which was recorded by a dozen participants.
That's a lot of content.

And seriously Nept do you really believe Craftys ridiculous statements, that most of the content that has been created for Hawken is by TPG players?  Especially after the post you made about your thoughts on the subject of spectator mode?  A simple yes or no will suffice.  Theres a few people that have voiced their opinion on the subject here already.

 

Warning Notice: "Most of the created content" has no relation and restriction to being recent.  There were plenty of video content creators before TPG ever existed.

 

But if you do agree, well, here goes then.

Spoiler

 

Crafty specified recording of TPG matches in the above statement.

And do you know why he said that?

 

 BECAUSE ITS REQUIRED BY EVERY TPG PARTICIPANT IN EVERY TPG MATCH FOR ANTI CHEATING DOCUMENTATION PURPOSES.

TPG League regulations require that every participant fully records every match that they play. We also require screenshot sets from each player, taken before and after each round of each match (specifics can be found here). All demos and screenshots must be maintained (saved) for at least one week after the match date.

They are recording matches because its REQUIRED by TPG RULES.  Any other benefit is simply a side effect of it being mandatory.  
 
Even so, 40 matches at 12 players recording each match is only 480 videos being produced over what roughly 6 months. Tack on 10 or 20 extra matches for shits and giggles and we are at a measly 720 videos recorded. A simple search of "Hawken TPG" and filtering to videos produced within the last year confirms this simple guesstimation on my part.
 
Even when you take the list of 81 TPG members and visit each one of their Youtube channels and look at the total number of Hawken related videos they have published, its still well under 1500 videos produced TOTAL.  Many of the channels I didn't know but was able to cross reference and find most of them.  I did look at each and every one I could find that was associated with TPG, and yes I counted and added all of their Hawken related videos up.  :)  I even included old videos in the count by MexicanMan, Interrobang87, Madklok, and others that are no longer on that list of 81 Crafty provided.  Just for funzies.  It is still insignificant.
 
Another quick search on Hawken sorted by upload date shows THOUSANDS of content creators unassociated and having NO TIES with TPG in any way shape or form.  Those players are recording and creating content for Hawken daily, and not because they are required BTW.  Some of them in the recent postings are indeed TPG affiliates , like eth0 and Hyginos. yes, but the key here is the overwhelming majority (aka MOST) are just random everyday users recording their game experience and uploading videos, and sharing it with the world.  Users that don't even bother to come to the forums and post, users that if you saw them in game you wouldn't know you were being recorded.
 
Thus nullifying both yours (now by association) and Craftys argument that "Most hawken created content that's out there is people involved in organized play. "
 
Most of the Hawken creative video content that has ever been produced is neither organized play (actual recorded competitive TPG matches), nor created by anyone associated with TPG in any way shape or form.  And that is a fact.
 

Q.E.D.
REKT.... again.

[Nept]

No, he was saying that most of the video content created for Hawken is published by TPG players. I never misinterpreted that argument Nept. Nice attempt at misdirection though.

 

I mean, yeah, you did: you spent the next couple pages writing essays about youtube video views.  That tangent was largely irrelevant to the thrust of Crafty's argument - as Crafty himself indicated. You got so worked up about "winning" that you failed to recognize and progress the actual discussion.  Indeed, you failed to recognize that you'd scored points against a straw man.

 

I am glad, though, that you've come around and recognized that Crafty's original argument was that "most of the video content created for Hawken is published by TPG[-related] players".  I think that's the more worthwhile conversation. 

 

As for my perspective, I'm unsure (mentioned that earlier).  In fact, we're all unsure.  You've written a lot of words about youtube videos and viewercounts, but you'll remember that twitch streams aren't easily quantified (to my knowledge, anyway).  And I think it's fair to say that the majority of NA Hawken streamers are related to TPG, either through direct participation or through their teams.  Then we've the TPG matches that are typically streamed by multiple players, and the manifold scrimmages being broadcast during competitive seasons.  That makes for a lot of content, however transient most of it may be.

Edited by Nept: Ultra Lord of the God-Kings, 16 January 2016 - 02:26 AM.

[devotion]

SS396, you do this a lot...

 

Now, I recognize you've created a narrative within which you're boldly opposing the high-tier cabal, but the truth is that your reading comprehension is poor, you frequently employ fallacies (unintentionally or no), and you hate conceding points.  That means that many people are going to disagree with you.

he does do that a lot. when i was initially responding to his first reply, i quoted his post and started addressing things in the order they were written; i realized mid-post that we rapidly were losing sight of the original premise, so i had to go back and readdress everything within a more deliberately structured framework.

Edited by devotion, 16 January 2016 - 01:56 AM.

[Superkamikazee]

If you throw in VR support along with the changes to the core gameplay to make VR a little more manageable, Hawken would likely no longer be the frantic bot destruction game it is now.  Slower paced games like MWO, I could see VR being great where the game is all about simulation and immersion in the whole huge mech combat experience.  Hawken, with it's current pace, CoD-TF2-CS mashup with mechs thrown in, VR could very well put people at a disadvantage if there's any lag with the VR displays / motion detection much less tunnel visioning unless you can crank up the FOV to the point that you lose out on the whole VR experience thing.
 
I wouldn't want to drop large sums of money into VR and the supporting HW for a free game only so that I could see some try-hard explode my mech with the illusion of depth tossed in.

Not necessarily. We've already discussed the games pacing, and speed. The game used to better suit VR because well, it supported VR, it demo'd VR etc etc.

[CraftyDus]

Don't ignore WarWednesday, Priority Target, UVM Wednesday, SundayDm, Funtime Friday's, and all the cups and tourneys, in your bizarre effort to ignore the positive impact of organized Hawken and the wide appeal of a smooth functioning spectator mode would have on content creation.
This weird hatred of TPG is blinding you to the obvious SS.

[comic_sans]

What do you think about hawken, then and now?

 

Page 6 again!  I sure hope content hits us before we kill the kid in the white shirt around the festering pig head.

Edited by currently(on)_sabbatical, 16 January 2016 - 06:51 AM.

[CraftyDus]

The naval officer will surely discover us on the beach via deus ex machina before we kill him


Every year we've played since that older version we've discovered ways to advance the techniques applied to how it's played. It's really been pushed pretty far past what it was.

To me, it's not so much that the game is radically different, but that the players then hadn't flushed out as much in the way of what's possible regarding technique.

People are just better now, in just 3 seasons the high level game in our league as sharpened everyone waaaaaay up compared to 2013.

Edited by CraftyDus, 16 January 2016 - 07:08 AM.

[ticklemyiguana]

Fleshed. Fleshed out. We're not in a toilet dammit.

[SS396]

I mean, yeah, you did: you spent the next couple pages writing essays about youtube video views.  That tangent was largely irrelevant to the thrust of Crafty's argument - as Crafty himself indicated. You got so worked up about "winning" that you failed to recognize and progress the actual discussion.  Indeed, you failed to recognize that you'd scored points against a straw man.

Wrong, iNept I didn't.

I spent half of a post referencing total view counts, yes, because thats what the first of his statements was directly about. And then half of that very same post mentioning content creation, because thats what his 2nd statement was about. Now, for someone that says I'm bad at reading comprehension and made a mistake, I think you need to look in the mirror. Because you are bad at reading comprehension and following along.

Here is proof.

I've proven that ALL of your blanket statements above are completely false.  
 
The number one VOD that is most viewed about Hawken is infact a trailer by Adhesive games themselves currently at 2,438,364 million views. 

Spoiler

 In fact the next few slots that take up those most viewed positions are also trailers.  Then they become "lets plays" by substantial youtube content creators that had built up a steady subscriber following and decided to create some content based on the game when it was relatively new.  Thus exposing great numbers of people to Hawken, which directly increased their number of views.
 
This can easily be determined by filtering Youtube results for Hawken by "view count".  I can see in the screenshot you posted, you are not sorting by "view count".  Can you explain the reasoning behind not sorting by view count when trying to prove a screenshot defending viewcount?
 
2.4 million is a few million above Merls 30,000 views which you are claiming is the most.  Do you not agree?  And out of all the 60 people you listed, I'll accept that maybe only one has a single video with a maximum of ~30,000 views, unless you can find me one that has more than Merls, which I'll allow you to replace willingly at any time.   Why, because it isn't going to come anywhere close to 2.4 fuzzy bunnyng million views which would negate my counter argument against yours, thats why.  Theres no way I can possibly lose this.  Thats why I'm standing here grinning from ear to ear like this.

I mean really your original argument was that "actual recorded competitive gameplay was the most viewed VOD and streams", and then when that quickly failed you scrambled and switched it to "well, Youtube says one of the players that is associated with comp play has a video that has nothing to do with comp play, but it has the most views".

 
At this point I quit talking about view counts and strictly focused on content creation, at no time did I mention views or viewcounts Nept in the following. The reason for that was to respond directly to his 2nd argument.
 

Also most of the Hawken related content out there on Youtube and Twitch also is not associated with anyone involved with organized play, its just thousands of normal people recording their own play for video montages, or lets plays or just plain fun.  Again we can use the tools provided by Youtube to sort by upload date and look at who posted what as recently as a 1 hour ago to one week ago.  Out of the 3 pages of videos I quickly skimmed over I see maybe 2 or 3 by people that I personally recognize could be remotely associated with an actual known player name in game or here on the forums.
 
ArM0rEdKloWn HAWKEN
Cosine Hyperbolic
Lauren Emily
 
None of these are listed in your list of the definitive 60 players directly involved with comp play.  Now I could of missed someone if their Youtube username wasn't easily cross referenced or similar between Youtube and Hawken.  And I apologize if I did, but still 1 or 2 videos out of pages does not satisfy your statement that "most of the content is by people involved with comp play" again.  Do you disagree?  Most of the videos aren't even from players that even visit the forums on a regular basis.

 
Since that post, 2 TPG members have published Youtube videos, fuzzy bunnyng 2 Nept (1 did it just to backup Crafty as noted in another thread), but there are still pages on pages of videos produced by thousands of people unaffiliated with TPG. Therefore it can be shown that the Hawken content being created is not only by TPG players as claimed by Crafty and now you Nept.
 

I am glad, though, that you've come around and recognized that Crafty's original argument was that "most of the video content created for Hawken is published by TPG[-related] players".  I think that's the more worthwhile conversation.

But that wasn't his original argument you ignorant fool, it was his 2nd argument. He quickly changed it on the fly. So there were infact two separate arguments to deal with the entire time.

I covered BOTH of them in my original post, however.

 

As for my perspective, I'm unsure (mentioned that earlier).  In fact, we're all unsure.  You've written a lot of words about youtube videos and viewercounts, but you'll remember that twitch streams aren't easily quantified (to my knowledge, anyway).  And I think it's fair to say that the majority of NA Hawken streamers are related to TPG, either through direct participation or through their teams.  Then we've the TPG matches that are typically streamed by multiple players, and the manifold scrimmages being broadcast during competitive seasons.  That makes for a lot of content, however transient most of it may be.

Wrong again. I've written a bunch of words about views and content creation as mentioned above, my latest post mentions nothing of viewcounts only content creation by thousands of people unaffiliated with TPG. I don't understand how you missed the information contained in my posts Nept.

I decided to leave off Twitch and focus on Youtube to make things simpler and because its harder to retrieve information from.

But I did say a tiny part of this earlier, and I'm sure you missed it.... on purpose.
1/14/16 4 Channels streamed Hawken and had 8 viewers total.
1/13/16 4 Channels streamed Hawken and had 8 viewers total.
1/12/16 3 Channels streamed Hawken and had 9 viewers total.
1/11/16 3 Channels streamed Hawken and had 6 viewers total.
1/10/16 2 Channels streamed Hawken and had 6 viewers total.
1/09/16 2 Channels streamed Hawken and had 10 viewers total.
1/08/16 3 Channels streamed Hawken and had 9 viewers total
1/07/16 2 Channels streamed Hawken and had 7 viewers total
1/06/16 3 Channels streamed Hawken and had 9 viewers total
1/05/16 3 Channels streamed Hawken and had 8 viewers total
1/04/16 3 Channels streamed Hawken and had 11 viewers total
1/03/16 2 Channels streamed Hawken and had 12 viewers total
1/02/16 3 Channels streamed Hawken and had 7 viewers total
1/01/16 2 Channels streamed Hawken and had 62 viewers total

Streaming to such a small audience does relatively nothing in terms of advertising or publicizing this game. 1 person streaming in the last 2 weeks had a fuzzy bunnyng laughable number of people watching on the 1st of January. Just to put this into perspective right now, the leading channel being broadcast has 111,923 concurrent viewers.

The rest of the top 6 are:
89,729
52,777
25,363
23,862
18,292

I think its safe to just leave off the Twitch related information that pertains to Hawken as it is very insignificant as really nobody associated with Hawken has a very substantial channel, and the ones that did you and the other TPG members trashed on them for not being "good" at the game, remember? Lets not even mention that not one single TPG member that streams Hawken is partnered with Twitch and receives any ad revenue. There were streamers that were partnered and had substantial channels built up, but again certain members disliked watching their streams because it was unentertaining to them. They no longer stream Hawken at all.

[SS396]

Fleshed. Fleshed out. We're not in a toilet dammit.

You sure about that?

Even Craftys avatar looks like a backwards toilet bowl from a top down view.

[SS396]

Don't ignore WarWednesday, Priority Target, UVM Wednesday, SundayDm, Funtime Friday's, and all the cups and tourneys, in your bizarre effort to ignore the positive impact of organized Hawken and the wide appeal of a smooth functioning spectator mode would have on content creation.
This weird hatred of TPG is blinding you to the obvious SS.

I didn't forget them at all. Many of those events happened at least once, but maybe twice in the span of twitch streams I listed above.

I guess I must be blind to see how streaming to 3 or 4 die hard Hawken fans on average is a positive impact and helping publicize this game to new players everywhere. Kappa.

[DallasCreeper]

What do you think about hawken, then and now?

 

Page 6 again!  I sure hope content hits us before we kill the kid in the white shirt around the festering pig head.

Hopefully content hits us before the boulder hits the fat kid

[Superkamikazee]

The naval officer will surely discover us on the beach via deus ex machina before we kill him


Every year we've played since that older version we've discovered ways to advance the techniques applied to how it's played. It's really been pushed pretty far past what it was.

To me, it's not so much that the game is radically different, but that the players then hadn't flushed out as much in the way of what's possible regarding technique.

People are just better now, in just 3 seasons the high level game in our league as sharpened everyone waaaaaay up compared to 2013.

I know that at least I'm not making the argument that the game is fundamentally different than it used to be, but what I have been suggesting is that the changes that were made, definitely changed the games pacing. We could argue ad nauseum if those changes improved the game, or worsened the game collectively (new player experience, mechanics), and how I discussed earlier the different skill gaps. But to summarize that vs sifting back through this thread, I feel the current skill gap is focused more around ones FPS skills almost entirely (lower TTK, less heat management, dodge changes, AC). That stuff is geared more around reaction time, vs how things used to be with a higher TTK, more heat gen, slower dodge speeds, shorter dodge distances etc etc meaning perhaps someone with less than ideal FPS skills could still manage if they were decent at managing systems vs a huge focus on reaction time. What I feel that does is widen Hawkens potential appeal. And please don't throw out, "play MWO", that game is very complex, not new player friendly, has way too many systems, that Hawken was a bit of a middle ground. There's even old vid where the devs mentioned that, but I'd have to dig for it, which I guess I can do if I'm still made out to be a crazy.

Anyways, I'm going to step out of this thread, and convo, it's pointless to argue with folks here. Neither opinions are inherently right or wrong, our opinions will not effect any immediate decisions from Reloaded, and to some degree I'm hoping they don't listen to the community. Near the end of Hawkens ADH days, some of the changes made based on community campaigns could be considered questionable if they actually improved the experience for anyone other than a tenured vet getting bored with the game.

[SS396]

Hopefully content hits us before the boulder hits the fat kid

 

Well, he is Ultra Lord of the Flies.

[ATX22]

Not necessarily. We've already discussed the games pacing, and speed. The game used to better suit VR because well, it supported VR, it demo'd VR etc etc.

 

Well, yeah, it did.  But now?  I guess I should hold my opinion on how well VR and Hawken mesh until after Reloaded get their first series of patches in.  They haven't even removed the ADH/meteor branding from the website let alone the game.. once they start making changes, everything could... I'm sounding redundant here, change.

 

With VR in general, the idea to me is awesome, and if VR takes off, I'd drop some money into making my PC support it better.  But if it turns out to be lacking like 3D HDTV did... I'm not wasting my time or money on it.

[CraftyDus]

Fleshed. Fleshed out. We're not in a toilet dammit.

 

flushed out

as in bird hunting with dogs

[ticklemyiguana]

flushed out

as in bird hunting with dogs

hmmmmmmmm........ hmmmmmmmmm.... I concede the validity of that usage. Carry on.

[Nept]

Since that post, 2 TPG members have published Youtube videos, fuzzy bunnyng 2 Nept (1 did it just to backup Crafty as noted in another thread), but there are still pages on pages of videos produced by thousands of people unaffiliated with TPG. Therefore it can be shown that the Hawken content being created is not only by TPG players as claimed by Crafty and now you Nept.
 

But that wasn't his original argument you ignorant fool, it was his 2nd argument. He quickly changed it on the fly. So there were infact two separate arguments to deal with the entire time.

 

Again, you're crafting another strawman.  Noone's claiming that Hawken content's being created by only TPG-related players.  You've failed to address Crafty's points throughout the discussion, attempted to derail it, and slung insults at everyone that has pointed out your inconsistencies.

 

Anyway, let's get back to the actual discussion:

 

I am glad, though, that you've come around and recognized that Crafty's original argument was that "most of the video content created for Hawken is published by TPG[-related] players".  I think that's the more worthwhile conversation. 

 

As for my perspective, I'm unsure (mentioned that earlier).  In fact, we're all unsure.  You've written a lot of words about youtube videos and viewercounts, but you'll remember that twitch streams aren't easily quantified (to my knowledge, anyway).  And I think it's fair to say that the majority of NA Hawken streamers are related to TPG, either through direct participation or through their teams.  Then we've the TPG matches that are typically streamed by multiple players, and the manifold scrimmages being broadcast during competitive seasons.  That makes for a lot of content, however transient most of it may be.

[SS396]

Again, you're crafting another strawman.  Noone's claiming that Hawken content's being created by only TPG-related players.  You've failed to address Crafty's points throughout the discussion, attempted to derail it, and slung insults at everyone that has pointed out your inconsistencies.
 
Anyway, let's get back to the actual discussion:

 
Ok. I seem to be doing this incorrectly.

Then prove Craftys assertion and now yours by association.  In fact prove all of Craftys assertions. Please by all means.  The burden of proof is on TPG and its members, to provide evidence that substantiates Craftys statements. I look forward to this proof promptly so that I and others may disprove it, should it be necessary.
 
I'll mark the important stuff in red for ya.
 

Comp Hawken is the most viewed Hawken on VOD and streams. Your opinions are extremely marginal. There's always MWO if it's too fast for you.

 

Most hawken created content that's out there is people involved in organized play. 
This stuff is on google boys, you're the ones stuck in a bubble.

 

searching youtube the TOP hawken video is a tpgplayer from among the last season
 
which included
 
crockrocket
roarschak
Syn
DieselCat
CyberTormentor
cavefishes
DeeRax
Al3xaxLE
sabrehawk90
Kayla
dlg587
32w
Plazma
WillyWonka
Get Mechd
Rukinom
OmegaNull
Augmentia
Sigil
fAEth
Fenrir_117
Amidatelion
OdinTheWise
Tom_Neverwinter
Robscancer
Silverfire
TurdxSandwich
ticklemyiguana
Lanatic_Fringe
hammockman22
EliteShooter
eth0
_incitatus
Poopslinger
Solosttarian
Nepr
lo_spaghetto
Skrill
Darktim300
TheButtSatisfier
GGGanjaman
kirkgonewild
Hyginos
THETOEMASHER
M1lkshake
breadeffect
Rei
Daronicus
NeoKronos
comic_sans
Dew
3jackice
TunsofFun
Cond0m
Xployt
Draigun
Coshcost
Clusterbombman
Brigantine
Chitman
peacecraftSLD
DM30
Counterlogicman
Thirdeye
x9x8x7x
LoC_TR
Xiphos27
Merl
bkcat
7ucky
Culex
Requiem132
Nept
hestoned
Omnistone
leonhardt
Climatic
iaredave
7rip
Xacius
devotion
 
not to mention the burgeoning EU events and the less formal war wed/sunday dm stuff
 
number 3 in the search is bergwein an active eu comp player
 

Spoiler

 
TL;DR
 
you few marginal misanthrops are missing out on what's actually happening and there's no good reason for that

This is really the only one that he provided any evidence backing up his new assertion, However, his old claim is still unsubstantiated by lack of evidence.

 

comp hawken has helped keep this game alive way beyond its natural death. thats what comp gaming does, sorry you missed it

I really look forward to the proof of this claim.
 

coincidence?

 
 
 
I will maintain that Hawken would be better served and most players would prefer a polishing off of the almost working spectator mode over vr support.
The significantly more active part of the playerbase that enjoys a cornacopia of organized play and events would appreciate the quality increase that the created content would served by.

Have fun Nept and crew.  

[SS396]

I thought "this stuff was on google boys", shouldn't be hard to do a few searches and easily prove it.

 

Spoiler

Maybe this will help.

Edited by SS396, 16 January 2016 - 06:44 PM.

[ticklemyiguana]

Just to kind of save you from well, the likely hair raising screeches of "I HAVE A LIFE OUTSIDE OF HAWKEN," well, it's kind of a Saturday night, and if you're not practically injected with the internet on a routine basis, it's pretty easy to let compiling research for an overextended, fully hyperbolized argument on a video game forum go neglected.

 

But, uh, here's a drink to you, SS. Let no one ever say you lack tenacity.

[SS396]

Looks like Craftys got plenty of time to read your post, and mine too, I'm sure they are banging the thunderdrum on teamspeak as I type this.  I kinda picture Nept as the guy with the guitar on the front of the convoy in Mad Max: Fury road.  

 

The clock has started though.

 

Neglect or maybe they can't find any proof that substantiates any of Craftys assertions.  Shrug.  I mean like I said if this was sooo easy to prove by using google, then it should only take him a few minutes to prove it to everyone, and then I can respond to his proof.  I wonder whats taking them so long?  How long does someone have to wait and when does the other side forfeit by not responding in a debate?

 

But thanks for the drink and the vote of confidence, I was kinda worried for a moment there when the Cards couldn't seem to make any progress on the field in the first half.  Now it seems they might have this in the bank, just gotta run out the clock.  Not really a fan of football at all, but hey, gotta show some support for them.

[ticklemyiguana]

I'll favor that post with a like on account of the imagery. Delightful.

[Nept]

 
Ok. I seem to be doing this incorrectly.

 

Well, at least you've conceded that you've strawmanned here:

 

 Therefore it can be shown that the Hawken content being created is not only by TPG players as claimed by Crafty and now you Nept.

 

Again, for clarity's sake, noone's claiming that Hawken content is being created "only by TPG players".

 

 

Now let's move on to your latest mistake:

 

 
Then prove Craftys assertion and now yours by association. 

 

My listing of the logical fallacies within your argument doesn't cause Crafty's claim (that TPG-related players produce the bulk of Hawken's content) to become mine "by association".  As I've explained three times,  

 

As for my perspective, I'm unsure (mentioned that earlier).  In fact, we're all unsure.  You've written a lot of words about youtube videos and viewercounts, but you'll remember that twitch streams aren't easily quantified (to my knowledge, anyway).  And I think it's fair to say that the majority of NA Hawken streamers are related to TPG, either through direct participation or through their teams.  Then we've the TPG matches that are typically streamed by multiple players, and the manifold scrimmages being broadcast during competitive seasons.  That makes for a lot of content, however transient most of it may be.

 

Again, the transient nature of twitch streams renders proof - or disproof - impossible.  Unless, of course, there's some way to document and review all Hawken-related streams.  If there is, please let me know: we've lost some good videos that I would've liked to have saved.

 

Unlike SS396 and Crafty, I've recognized the futility in arguing an ultimately unprovable assertion - which is the reason I've stated my uncertainty from the start.

 

If we strip away all the ire and pointless posturing, here's what's worth discussing:

• Crafty believes that competitive play contributes significantly to this community, both by providing motivation (an end-game) to veteran players and by producing content (e.g., constant twitch streams)
• SS396 believes that competitive play doesn't contribute significantly to this community, and that Reloaded would be wasting resources by finishing features such as spectator mode (features that he feels pertain mostly to competitive players).

 

And (again) here's how I feel:

Spectator Mode

I don't think that finishing spectator mode will automatically increase Hawken's population.  I do think that they should finish spectator mode (and I would certainly prioritize it over VR development and its pitfalls), especially since it's decently far along.  Spectator mode will also help content creators, including (but not limited to) the competitive community.  Ultimately, Reloaded's much better positioned to decide whether they've (currently) enough time and resources to finish Adhesive's work.

 

The Competitive Community

Competition often extends a game's life.  It keeps people - especially veterans - playing the game.  And it's those veterans who frequently serve as teachers and mentors for newer players.  Ladders and leagues also provide players "end-game" goals that wouldn't otherwise be present.  However, competition doesn't (typically) attract new blood.  It's better understood (imo), as a means of keeping people interested in the game.

 

Leagues like TPG and Priority Target; tournaments like TPG's try-weeklies; and events like War Wednesday and Sunday Sunday Sunday Deathmatch have been a boon for this community.  They won't result in thousands of new players, but they will help hold the interest of fresh recruits.

[SS396]

Nept, I see no proof backing any of Craftys Assertions.  Can I ask why you left out this important evidence from google?

[CraftyDus]

you can bring a horse to water.....

[SS396]

Comp Hawken is the most viewed Hawken on VOD and streams. Your opinions are extremely marginal. There's always MWO if it's too fast for you.

 
No evidence provided to substantiate first assertion.
Conclusion: Bold faced lie.
 

Most hawken created content that's out there is people involved in organized play. 
This stuff is on google boys, you're the ones stuck in a bubble.

No evidence provided to substantiate second and third assertions.
Conclusion: Bold faced lies.
 

searching youtube the TOP hawken video is a tpgplayer from among the last season
 
which included
 
crockrocket
roarschak
Syn
DieselCat
CyberTormentor
cavefishes
DeeRax
Al3xaxLE
sabrehawk90
Kayla
dlg587
32w
Plazma
WillyWonka
Get Mechd
Rukinom
OmegaNull
Augmentia
Sigil
fAEth
Fenrir_117
Amidatelion
OdinTheWise
Tom_Neverwinter
Robscancer
Silverfire
TurdxSandwich
ticklemyiguana
Lanatic_Fringe
hammockman22
EliteShooter
eth0
_incitatus
Poopslinger
Solosttarian
Nepr
lo_spaghetto
Skrill
Darktim300
TheButtSatisfier
GGGanjaman
kirkgonewild
Hyginos
THETOEMASHER
M1lkshake
breadeffect
Rei
Daronicus
NeoKronos
comic_sans
Dew
3jackice
TunsofFun
Cond0m
Xployt
Draigun
Coshcost
Clusterbombman
Brigantine
Chitman
peacecraftSLD
DM30
Counterlogicman
Thirdeye
x9x8x7x
LoC_TR
Xiphos27
Merl
bkcat
7ucky
Culex
Requiem132
Nept
hestoned
Omnistone
leonhardt
Climatic
iaredave
7rip
Xacius
devotion
 
not to mention the burgeoning EU events and the less formal war wed/sunday dm stuff
 
number 3 in the search is bergwein an active eu comp player
 

Spoiler

 
TL;DR
 
you few marginal misanthrops are missing out on what's actually happening and there's no good reason for that

 
Evidence provided to fourth assertion, however nobody was arguing the point that Merls video was not returned first when searching for Hawken and filtering by relevance. The argument was when searching and filtering by all time views it is not.  Also evidence for every TPG member invalid and irrelevant in discussion.

Conclusion: Irrelevant to the actual discussion.
 

Seriously dude, what have you done for hawken lately ever, while just in the last season of TPG 40-ish some odd matches not including playoffs happened each of which was recorded by a dozen participants.
That's a lot of content.
All while Priority target got into the air and streamed their matches as well as all the weekly community event participant streams and montages.
While you make a singular paranoid spectacle of how none of it matters.
If you like Hawken, then it occurs to me that you have to really really try when it comes to ignoring this stuff.
Makes no sense to me. Must be very lonely.
That's how I feel.

 
No evidence provided to fifth and sixth assertion.

Conclusion: Bold faced lies.
 

comp hawken has helped keep this game alive way beyond its natural death. thats what comp gaming does, sorry you missed it

 
No evidence provided to seventh assertion.

Conclusion: Bold faced lie.

 

Your entire narrative here is delusional SS.
You keep saying 60 people out of 200-ish, despite the number of 81 people listed and the 114 playing while I post this...and because TPG is between seasons, right this very second there are 4 servers with people in them in NA, only  2 of which are full. That number is in the 30's.
What ails you?
Either you can't count or you are desperate to accept that organized Hawken is majority of active Hawken in NA, and has been from the summer of '14 on.

I scrimmed a completely new team last night  for over an hour full of new players who were preparing for tpg s4.
When's the last time you and some friends played hawken with another team of completely new people?
Oh that's never happened and likely never will.
Doesn't mean that it's not what we are busy having fun doing.
There's not a single player who helped the original devs that will have anything to do with you.
I'm sorry you are hurt that most hawken NA players have been busy in organized play while you continue to refuse to participate in this game and its community.
But you have nobody to blame but yourself.
 
And whittling your nonsense down by all time viewcount is also ignorant of the premise that those videos are ancient, rarely watched and that the new content and the current live streams and their channels are what matter to a living scene.
The one you are desperate to ignore and misrepresent.
How many viewers and followers are there on your stream? Who do you party up with in Hawken?
You  continue to haunt it for reasons noone can understand.
Stating the actual positive effect organized play does in the way of helping this game is hard for you to understand because you refuse to be relevant to the playing of this game.
You are not relevant to this game, should have been banned from it's forums for threateming to kill it's members long ago, and are railing against the truth.

To many assertions to list, but no evidence provided nonetheless.

Conclusion: Bold faced lies.
  

coincidence?

 
 
 
I will maintain that Hawken would be better served and most players would prefer a polishing off of the almost working spectator mode over vr support.
The significantly more active part of the playerbase that enjoys a cornacopia of organized play and events would appreciate the quality increase that the created content would served by.

This one is interesting. Evidence provided to nth assertion. However something seems to be deliberately tampered with in the image provided. The image shows a date listing of Jul 15, 2015 to Jan 15, 2016, but the graphical data only contains the timeline from Nov 1, 2015 to Jan 15, 2016. I recall that TPG season 3 did not start on the date as displayed on the clearly RED indicated marked of roughly Nov 1, 2015.

Conclusion: Suspiciously tampered evidence and bold faced lie.

Edited by SS396, 17 January 2016 - 05:45 PM.

[hellc9943]

I'll just leave this here.

 

[M1lkshake]

And (again) here's how I feel:

 

Spectator Mode

I don't think that finishing spectator mode will automatically increase Hawken's population.  I do think that they should finish spectator mode (and I would certainly prioritize it over VR development and its pitfalls), especially since it's decently far along.  Spectator mode will also help content creators, including (but not limited to) the competitive community.  Ultimately, Reloaded's much better positioned to decide whether they've (currently) enough time and resources to finish Adhesive's work.

 

The Competitive Community

Competition often extends a game's life.  It keeps people - especially veterans - playing the game.  And it's those veterans who frequently serve as teachers and mentors for newer players.  Ladders and leagues also provide players "end-game" goals that wouldn't otherwise be present.  However, competition doesn't (typically) attract new blood.  It's better understood (imo), as a means of keeping people interested in the game.

 

Leagues like TPG and Priority Target; tournaments like TPG's try-weeklies; and events like War Wednesday and Sunday Sunday Sunday Deathmatch have been a boon for this community.  They won't result in thousands of new players, but they will help hold the interest of fresh recruits.

 

If spectator mode is already somewhat developed, I feel as if it wouldn't be hard to just finish it and release it (as opposed to putting out other entirely new content). That seems logical.

 

If there were no competition in this game I'd have stopped playing years ago. I wouldn't have even picked it up to begin with.

Edited by M1lkshake, 17 January 2016 - 05:32 PM.

[SS396]

I'll just leave this here.

 

 

HAHAHAH.

 

Thank you so very much for that much needed evidence.

 

Since "Most hawken created content that's out there is people involved in organized play. "  I wonder which comp team he's on?

 

 

Crafty, I'll allow those two videos as a submission to your burden of proof if you would like.  Yes or No?

Edited by SS396, 17 January 2016 - 05:59 PM.

[CraftyDus]

nobody knows what you are on about at this point, get help

[SS396]

nobody knows what you are on about at this point, get help

 

Oh, was it not clear?

 

Your statements that I highlighted are unfounded due to lack of evidence.  Hows that evidence coming along, since its all on google, shouldn't take this long.  I see hellc9943 offered up some video evidence I assume he gathered from google, do you want me to add it to your proof?  Yes or No?  Then you'll have at least one less statement to substantiate.  

 

Or, you can just say that you have no evidence, that works too.

[Xacius]

Coming at you live from the Hawken forums, SS396 brings you Arguing in Futility!

 

Featuring

• Logical fallacies!
• A total disregard for substantive responses!
• Focusing on semantics, yet missing the point of the discussion!
• Paranoia!