154 replies to this topic

[SuupaaFly]

"My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable, and I'm just ferocious, I want his heart, I want to eat his children, all praise be to Allah."

 

-"Iron" Mike Tyson

[TheButtSatisfier]

MMR does reflect skill to some degree. It's the degrees of accuracy that's worth scrutinizing.

 

• Would a 2000 MMR player consistently win 1v1s against a 2500 MMR player if each piloted their preferred mechs? No.
• Would a 2200 player consistently win 1v1s against a 2400 player? Unlikely but possible.
• Would a 2300 player consistently win 1v1s against a 2350 player? Toss up.

Feel free to replace "1v1" with "a TDM where the remaining 10 players on each team are all players of relatively similar skill" and the statements still hold true.

[Sylhiri]

MMR does reflect skill to some degree. It's the degrees of accuracy that's worth scrutinizing.

 

• Would a 2000 MMR player consistently win 1v1s against a 2500 MMR player if each piloted their preferred mechs? No.
• Would a 2200 player consistently win 1v1s against a 2400 player? Unlikely but possible.
• Would a 2300 player consistently win 1v1s against a 2350 player? Toss up.

Feel free to replace "1v1" with "a TDM where the remaining 10 players on each team are all players of relatively similar skill" and the statements still hold true.

 

That is very subjective. "...if each piloted their preferred mechs", if all mechs were equal in a 1v1 situation then sure that would be true but a EOC rocketeer requires more skill from the pilot then an Assualt. Also (I hate to be the guy that brings it up) if you count smurfing then toss everything you said out the window.

[TURDxSANDWICH]

MMR does reflect skill to some degree. It's the degrees of accuracy that's worth scrutinizing.

 

• Would a 2000 MMR player consistently win 1v1s against a 2500 MMR player if each piloted their preferred mechs? No.
• Would a 2200 player consistently win 1v1s against a 2400 player? Unlikely but possible.
• Would a 2300 player consistently win 1v1s against a 2350 player? Toss up.

Feel free to replace "1v1" with "a TDM where the remaining 10 players on each team are all players of relatively similar skill" and the statements still hold true.

 

There is definitely a strong correlation between MMR and skill level.  I'm not saying there isn't.  But in the context of this thread, we have a player who hit 3000+ MMR by admittedly cheesing his way there, and he doesn't apologize for it (nor should he).  My point is who cares if his MMR is 3008 or 2791?  He's the same player with the same skill regardless of his MMR.

 

I have the opposite "problem" with my MMR.  Before TPG, my MMR hovered around 2150.  Now, I'm an average player on a below average team (alpha conference included), and my MMR has dropped to 2000.  But, I'm a better player than i was before and i fully expect my MMR to quickly raise above 2200 when TPG is over and i spend more time in pubs.  I'm the same player with the same skill, but could be described by an MMR range of 200-300 points.

 

MMR is just a number to attempt to place players in a competitive server when using match maker. Nothing more.  Nothing less.

[TheButtSatisfier]

 

 "...if each piloted their preferred mechs", if all mechs were equal in a 1v1 situation then sure that would be true but a EOC rocketeer requires more skill from the pilot then an Assualt.

 

Without trying to write out the equivalent of detailed 1v1 tournament rules that balances everything except player skill:

 

True, but a 2500 player wouldn't have a rocketeer as their preferred mech because they understand its limitations. A comparatively inexperienced pilot wouldn't understand the limitation, or wouldn't care, and would invest their time into a mech that limits their ability to rack up kills, influence zones of control, etc in nearly any game mode. Skilled players know what mechs to invest their time into to maximize their effectiveness.

 

Also, in my hypothetical scenario let's assume that both players pick mechs they are competent with and are similarly effective in 1v1 situations. Scout, berserker, assault, whatever.

 

 

Also (I hate to be the guy that brings it up) if you count smurfing then toss everything you said out the window.

 

 

The MMR of the player, not the account. If that player uses smurfs then take the MMR of the highest-MMR account that player owns.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 16 October 2015 - 03:12 PM.

[Sylhiri]

If anything Xacius basically points out how badly the MMR system was designed. Players using MMR as a scoreboard (as there is no other alternative), finding ways to maximize the amount by cheesing the system (farming, technician, deathmatch) to rank higher. This in turn hurts the player due to having such a large MMR that he can't find any rooms to play in, hurts the new players as the high MMR player now smurfs to play the game (which potentially hurts retention) and completely frustrates the developer trying to balance the large and small gaps in skill level. The system needs an overhaul.

[Nept]

@Nept: I made the same obersavtion a while ago. While I think there are certain rare circumstances, where lol is used as intended, the rest is, especially if you look at the meaning behind the abbreviations, just out of context and most likely related to sarcasm, rage, insecurity, scornfulness etc.

IMO most people (mis)using those don't even have a clue what message they are really sending.

 

Yeah, using lol or the like to indicate actual amusement is one thing, but using it derisively within responses or arguments signifies immediately that they've gotten under your skin.  And the harder you LOL and LMFAO in your posts, the more obvious your frustration becomes.

 

*Edit* It comes across like this.

 

 

The problem with MMR isn't that it doesn't accurately reflect ones skill.  Its a "Match Making Ranking" and it serves its purpose well enough (and would serve it even better with a bigger player base).  The problem with MMR is that people interpret it as is if does accurately reflect ones skill.  

 

Yeah, MMR does its job decently well given the small playerbase.  I do think it correlates fairly strongly with skill, though.  At the upper echelons it may fall apart a bit, but as others have indicated, you can typically expect significant skill differences between pilots with a couple hundred MMR between them.  Not always a perfect representation, of course (doesn't take into account mech preferences, for example), but it's not bad either.

 

*Edit* Aaaand you posted later about the strong correlation as I was cooking breakfast.  I saw it, but I'm now too lazy to change my post.

Edited by Nept: Ultra Lord of the God-Kings, 16 October 2015 - 09:07 AM.

[DerMax]

Aaaand you posted later about the strong correlation as I was cooking breakfast.

lol

 

git gud

[TURDxSANDWICH]

If anything Xacius basically points out how badly the MMR system was designed. Players using MMR as a scoreboard (as there is no other alternative), finding ways to maximize the amount by cheesing the system (farming, technician, deathmatch) to rank higher. This in turn hurts the player due to having such a large MMR that he can't find any rooms to play in, hurts the new players as the high MMR player now smurfs to play the game (which potentially hurts retention) and completely frustrates the developer trying to balance the large and small gaps in skill level. The system needs an overhaul.

 

I think the MMR system itself is more or less fine.  The big error the previous developers made was making it public which lead to players misusing it like a true leaderboard.

[ticklemyiguana]

I have the opposite "problem" with my MMR. Before TPG, my MMR hovered around 2150. Now, I'm an average player on a below average the best team (alpha conference included), and my MMR has dropped to 2000.

I feel you, brah.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 16 October 2015 - 09:28 AM.

[Hyginos]

I think the MMR system itself is more or less fine.  The big error the previous developers made was making it public which lead to players misusing it like a true leaderboard.

 

Technically the old devs did hide it. The only reason we see it now is due to the ingenuity and work of a certain player-turned-dev.

 

Honestly I don't think the level of obscurity we have now is that bad. I would conjecture that the people who know how to actually use the MMR tools are in the minority in game, but have an inordinate presence on the forums and leaderboards.

[Kauyon]

This whole talk about the relation between MMR and skill reminds me of the old (not so old I'd like to think) times in which being good or bad at a game amounted to your position in regulated competitions, not to some algorythm that assigns you a number with more or less arbitrary parameters. I wish modern players would stop obsessing over some feel-good number and would start getting into competitions, because there's where real players prove themselves.
If someone says "B-but I don't have time to play on a team!", then you don't have time to develop the skills needed for the top tier either.
To the vast mayority of shitters out there (me included) who play for fun, how does MMR farming hurt us? If anything, it will keep said "undesireable" players away from you during matchmaking.
There is no problem with MMR, let's look at it as what it is: a tool with the purpose of keeping matches balanced, not as -the- way to rate a player's skill.

[Sylhiri]

I think the MMR system itself is more or less fine.  The big error the previous developers made was making it public which lead to players misusing it like a true leaderboard.

 

Well it's not only the problem with misusing the system. As Hawken went on we saw a drop off in the older experienced players, since the game doesn't have much retention the player pool for experienced players dwindled while new players keep dropping off, which are generally replaced by other new players. Most of them stop playing Hawken before they even get decent, although a few notable players have stuck around and are doing exceptional.

 

The gap in skill between around 1800-2300 or so is very high compaired to 2300 and onward. So adjusting the match making to allow for the 2700 or so people to play with 2300, while not effecting the 2300+ group devestates the 1800-2300 group. Even if people couldn't look at the MMR through scrimbot, they would naturally progress upward anyway although slower. It also doesn't help community events that try to balance via MMR.

 

Cap is too high and it's too easy to gain MMR. It should be impossible to reach the cap and even if you did the difference between mid tier and high tier shouldn't be abnormally far away as it is currently.

Edited by Sylhiri, 16 October 2015 - 10:17 AM.

[Xacius]

 
lol. And I really mean it, when I read your post tonight I laughed out loud and facepalmed shortly thereafter.
 
Whenever I read someones post that says lol or any of the terms you mention, never have I ever remotely thought someone was trying to communicate a feeling of anger.  For you to even conclude that all they are conveying is anger is the stupidest thing I have ever seen you post.  You can ask any person from 3rd grade up what lol means, and they will easily explain it as an expression of amusement. (or maybe mistake it as a MOBA if you don't give them any context)
 

 

To be fair, I was frustrated in that argument.  Arguing with a moron can do that.  In the majority of instances where I used "lmao," or "lmfao," I was frustrated.  Nept assessment is almost entirely correct (frustration being interchangeable for anger in this context).  

 

 

Hrmm, I guess he means he's angry there..   eh?  What do you think??  Condescending prick yes, angry no.

 

You chose the only example in that entire post where I actually used it to express humor.   1/5 is an F.  Congratulations, you've failed at basic reading comprehension.  

 

 

 

What Reloaded needs is to implement compounded decay on MMR so that people can't farm it up and never use it.  They should be forced to maintain it.

 

That's the stupidest fuzzy bunnyng idea, and I'm surprised that you even recommended it given your history with dave on the subject of high-tier players in noob lobbies.  The last thing we need is 2800+ players losing MMR for not playing.  It doesn't take that long to get back into shape after taking a break from the game.  After losing a considerable amount of MMR, these players would then be matched into standard lobbies and dominate via unbalanced matchmaking until they gained back all of their lost MMR (which can takes hundreds of matches, given how the formula works).  

[Xacius]

You sure do have problems determining emotions of people.  You have no clue.

 

The irony here is simply delicious.  

[americanbrit14]

What is this and how much diabetes and cancer will it give me.

 

Also, still waiting for the day when hawken is at a Con of some sort so we can get all the peeps up in there and have an all out mini-tourny to the death without ping difference.

Edited by Jason Endrago, 16 October 2015 - 11:58 AM.

[EliteShooter]

Ping is an issue... if I had the same ping as the rest of you candy asses my MMR would be at least 2600.

Until then I will continue to play with the best and eventually become one of them. Shouts out to my bros who've been along since the beginning. 

[TheButtSatisfier]

if I had the same ping as the rest of you candy asses my MMR would be at least 2600.

 

If MMR was a measure of saltiness then yes, 2600 sounds accurate

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

MMR does not care about dying or kdr. Just finish position.

There is correlation between skill and scoring well in high MMR matches, IMO. I think that is a reasonable view.

Aging mmr is a neat idea. We'd need a higher playerbase or we'd be keeping the distribution narrow.

I think I (or someone else) could propose a rubric based on stats to calc 'skill'.

Edited by Call_Me_Ishmael, 16 October 2015 - 12:48 PM.

[sabrehawk90]

The singularity has been reached

[ticklemyiguana]

This whole talk about the relation between MMR and skill reminds me of the old (not so old I'd like to think) times in which being good or bad at a game amounted to your position in regulated competitions, not to some algorythm that assigns you a number with more or less arbitrary parameters. I wish modern players would stop obsessing over some feel-good number and would start getting into competitions, because there's where real players prove themselves.
If someone says "B-but I don't have time to play on a team!", then you don't have time to develop the skills needed for the top tier either.
To the vast mayority of shitters out there (me included) who play for fun, how does MMR farming hurt us? If anything, it will keep said "undesireable" players away from you during matchmaking.
There is no problem with MMR, let's look at it as what it is: a tool with the purpose of keeping matches balanced, not as -the- way to rate a player's skill.

It might help you to know that 95% of the people in this discussion compete. The topic of discussion - despite there being... Not much of a topic, is largely a discussion of the relevance of the algorithm as well as its relation to skill.

Granted I haven't read SS/xacius' nonsense, but I don't think anyone here is crying about anything you're saying.

[Merl61]

This thread had little quality at its start. It certainly has none left at this point. Threads like this dissuade the general forum population from making new and relevant discussions and should be locked. This one in particular is LONG overdue. 

[SS396]

Topping a scoreboard, maintaining killstreaks and avoiding dying are all good representations of skill.

  

Does repeatedly topping the scoreboard not indicate a skilled (or technician) player? I suppose you could go by win/loss or accuracy if you want but those numbers are as (if not more) simple to game as raw score.

 
You get things like stacking combat bonuses for staying alive in a match.  Increasing bonuses for each killstreak increment you get.  So the number of points awarded to you as a bonus greatly affects your final score.  Thats what I was talking about in my example.
  

The problem with MMR isn't that it doesn't accurately reflect ones skill.  Its a "Match Making Ranking" and it serves its purpose well enough (and would serve it even better with a bigger player base).  The problem with MMR is that people interpret it as is if does accurately reflect ones skill.

 Well, it should reflect your skill, and it should match you with similarly ranked players, not this +/- 1000 MMR lobby fuzzy bunny.
 
 

To be fair, I was frustrated in that argument.  Arguing with a moron can do that.  In the majority of instances where I used "lmao," or "lmfao," I was frustrated.  Nept assessment is almost entirely correct (frustration being interchangeable for anger in this context).

Oh, you don't need to add lmao or lmfao to emphasize your own frustrations, your response alone was enough to discern your frustration with others. That was clearly visible to anyone reading your replies.
 
  

You chose the only example in that entire post where I actually used it to express humor.   1/5 is an F.  Congratulations, you've failed at basic reading comprehension.

Wait, you say that I picked the only time in your entire post where you used it to express humor, and then say that I get an F for not mentioning the other 4 times where you used it and didn't mean it to express humor? Can you say contradiction??? SMH. Logic fail 101.

BTW, once was all I needed, repeating it 4 more times doesn't make the point of my comment any stronger.
  
Its ok, we all feel and see your frustration building.

  

That's the stupidest fuzzy bunnyng idea, and I'm surprised that you even recommended it given your history with dave on the subject of high-tier players in noob lobbies.  The last thing we need is 2800+ players losing MMR for not playing.  It doesn't take that long to get back into shape after taking a break from the game.  After losing a considerable amount of MMR, these players would then be matched into standard lobbies and dominate via unbalanced matchmaking until they gained back all of their lost MMR (which can takes hundreds of matches, given how the formula works).

 I already mentioned this myself a few posts back, and you say I fail at reading comprehension. Pay attention and follow along please.
https://community.pl...ge-3#entry64981
Hrmm. I wonder what similar result of smurfing means?
 

The irony here is simply delicious.

Yes, yes it is.

[TheButtSatisfier]

This thread had little quality at its start. It certainly has none left at this point. Threads like this dissuade the general forum population from making new and relevant discussions and should be locked. This one in particular is LONG overdue. 

 

Are you kidding? This thread is overflowing with quality entertainment for others to enjoy. Threads like these are the digital equivalent of a Jerry Springer episode except you know everyone who is on the stage and their history with one another. Nobody should be clicking on a thread titled "Thus Concludes Hawken" thinking to themselves, "By jove! There is probably a delightful intellectual discussion being held in there between stoically mature players regarding the finer nuances of Hawken gameplay! Blessed are they to rain down wisdom and understanding on our dear readers, for they are ill-informed and easily led astray!"

 

There's no new content that's been released for ages. Discussions like this are going to happen, and a thread isn't going to have a measurable impact on player retention rates or anything of the sort. Let this thread merrily careen down the road to its eventual locking and love it affectionately as it does. Accept it for what it is, coddle and coo to it softly, and let others enjoy it as I have.

[Xacius]

Are you kidding? This thread is overflowing with quality entertainment for others to enjoy. Threads like these are the digital equivalent of a Jerry Springer episode except you know everyone who is on the stage and their history with one another. Nobody should be clicking on a thread titled "Thus Concludes Hawken" thinking to themselves, "By jove! There is probably a delightful intellectual discussion being held in there between stoically mature players regarding the finer nuances of Hawken gameplay! Blessed are they to rain down wisdom and understanding on our dear readers, for they are ill-informed and easily led astray!"

 

There's no new content that's been released for ages. Discussions like this are going to happen, and a thread isn't going to have a measurable impact on player retention rates or anything of the sort. Let this thread merrily careen down the road to its eventual locking and love it affectionately as it does. Accept it for what it is, coddle and coo to it softly, and let others enjoy it as I have.

While your analysis is entirely accurate and well-stated, we need more erotic fan fiction.  

 

This bottle of lotion isn't going to use itself.  

[Saturnine]

Gentile or fallen/jack?

 

(used to live in Mesa, have my fair share of acquaintances)

 

 

 

I don't know what any of these terms mean, lol.  

 

 

CMI: He moved to Utah and isn't local. Besides, I'm pretty sure Mormons are the minority at the U.

 

Xa: 'Jack' refers to someone who is Mormon, but doesn't necessarily follow the 'rules'.

[Ashfire908]

I think the MMR system itself is more or less fine. The big error the previous developers made was making it public which lead to players misusing it like a true leaderboard.

I fairly often regret doing this. It's pretty much all my fault.

[JeffMagnum]

I fairly often regret doing this. It's pretty much all my fault.

 

Make good on the Scrimbot 1v1 challenge it accepted on the old forums so I can kill it and fix this once and for all

[americanbrit14]

 

 

 

 

CMI: He moved to Utah and isn't local. Besides, I'm pretty sure Mormons are the minority at the U.

 

Xa: 'Jack' refers to someone who is Mormon, but doesn't necessarily follow the 'rules'.

 

Though this state isn't short on religious people, that's for damn sure.

[Nept]

I fairly often regret doing this. It's pretty much all my fault.

 

False!

 

It's Saturnine's fault.

[bacon_avenger]

I fairly often regret doing this. It's pretty much all my fault.

 

False!

 

It's Saturnine's fault.

[20:41:10] <bacon_work> !blame
[20:41:10] <Laila> <Saturnine> Yes, I deserve the blame.

 

Pretty much

Edited by bacon_avenger, 16 October 2015 - 07:43 PM.

[DM30]

 

 

I fairly often regret doing this. It's pretty much all my fault.

 

 

False!

 

It's Saturnine's fault.

 

Beat me to it. I was literally just about to point out that S9 posted directly before him, and that there was no better opportunity to deflect blame than right then. For shame, Ashfire...  

Edited by DM30, 16 October 2015 - 08:44 PM.

[Saturnine]

Beat me to it. I was literally just about to point out that S9 posted directly before him, and that there was no better opportunity to deflect blame than right then. For shame, Ashfire...  

 

Funnily enough, I am genuinely partly to blame. I was one of the people telling him it made more sense to make it public. My reasoning being that people would basically find a way anyway, especially since MMR had been public prior. It was a conflict immediately before it was officially public, stopped being one when it was integrated, and then I helped push him to put it in again once it was pulled back out.

Edited by Saturnine, 16 October 2015 - 09:18 PM.

[Sylhiri]

...and then I helped push him to put it in again once it was pulled back out.

 

Kay. 

[LadyTiggs]

Thus concludes this thread!