176 replies to this topic

[DerMax]

Whether Hawken's game play stays vertically focused or becomes grounded like it used to be, one thing needs to happen for sure: Low health pools have to go. It is the number one reason why new players are having such a bad time.

 

Larger health pools made the game's pace slow enough for inexperienced players to easily recognize and learn from their mistakes. It also didn't make them feel "rushed" to get better.

400/600/800?

[RespawningJesus]

I will agree, for the most part, that the balance is fine. Tech obviously needs to be looked at, and the Incin's passive may need to be tweaked a bit. (I suggested that the Incin should only be able to drain heat from people who have not been firing for a period of time.)

The way I see it, we need to tweak the game for player retention. Make starting out for new players more bearable.

[hestoned]

i would vote to keep everything as it is right now with the exception of tech+incin combo. i think thats the 1 thing the entire hawken communithy can agree on. and even then its a simple fix with some value changes, or i really like respawning jesus's idea of having a 1-2 sec delay before incin comsumes heat after an ally stops firing and not while they are firing. that alone would completely change the tech+incin combo and still retain the incins abilty to consume heat. or even just have no delay but if you are shooting your gun then incin wont consume heat

 

here are my thoughts on some other subjects

 

radar:

 

i think its actually fine as is. if it were any less forgiving then flanking would be much much easier and that could completely change the meta for the game. a mechs would see a huge comeback in comp play for sure. i feel there are a ton of mind games that come about because the way radar works now. i know where my opponent is and they know that i know and i know that they know i know. mind games brah. a neat trick people fall for allllllllll the time is faking out where i am on the map. theres about a 1-2 sec delay before your red blip on the radar dissapears when you stop boosting/shooting/fyling. so what i do is go one direction so they follow the red blip and then when i know it dissapears start walking another direction. alot of the time my opponent will shoot around the corner i tricked them into thinking i was going and dodge away from it but really they completely missed me and just dodged into my face. you can also bait out attacks with it. if you know your opponent is around that corner and you know that he knows you know you can boost towrds the corner to light up the radar and then dodge away from it to bait out pre fire. nows your chance to take advantage of your enemys reload time. its much easier with scout but i do it with gren and brawler alot as well. i dont think radar makes the game easy i think it actually makes it harder plus i would just be sad to see it changed. it been that way ever since closed aplha. be like loosing an old friend.

 

Wind Walking:

 

also think its fine as is. like others have said it intoduces new planes and trajectorys of fire to be mindfull of other than just "left right left right". like having x,y z cordinates and then taking out z. some mechs really need it too compete too. rockateer is an obvious example. that mech is ded meat if you can get into a cqc with it. having the ability to atleast retreat and shoot is a huge bonus not to mention being able to dodge over peoples heads. G2-assualt really benefits too. that mech HAS to have los to do damage. in a game where splash dmg and remote det is king. atleast with wind walking you can approach from other angles and get better poke dmg. also again being able to dodge over people is a huge plus. if that happens to you sorry but you were in the wrong positon and got wind walked all over.

 

remote detonation:

 

i really dont want to see any changes to this. its a core mechaninc to the game. when you strip down the game to its core mechanics you have walking, jumping, boosting, dodging left or right in a quick burst of speed, remote det, and an omnipotent radar. thats essentially all hawken is. i dont want to see changes to any of that. merl made a good point weve stuck around for months and months with the current build of the game. something is working.

 

just keep the game as it is for gods sake. we dont need balancing changes(other than tech+incin of course) what this game NEEDS is new art. we need new maps. we need new reticles because holy balls the ones we have now SUUUUUUUUUUCK. more game modes (CTF PLEASE). this game needs more content!!! not balancing!! (except for tech+insin)

 

AMERICA

Edited by hestoned, 26 March 2015 - 07:48 AM.

[shosca]

.....

 

I read your post but didn't find a single mention of AMERICA. Who are you actually and what have you done with real hestoned?

Edited by shosca, 26 March 2015 - 07:42 AM.

[Sylhiri]

radar:

 

i think its actually fine as is. if it were any less forgiving then flanking would be much much easier and that could completely change the meta for the game. a mechs would see a huge comeback in comp play for sure. 

 

You say that like it's a bad thing, lol.

[hestoned]

You say that like it's a bad thing, lol.

 

well kinda. i mean you still easily flank you just have to walk around and be sneaky. but if i can boost around and flank it might get a little stupid. it would be herp derp im scout ima boostin behind you flak tow boom bam you ded

[Sylhiri]

well kinda. i mean you still easily flank you just have to walk around and be sneaky. but if i can boost around and flank it might get a little stupid. it would be herp derp im scout ima boostin behind you flak tow boom bam you ded

 

Better then walkin around the deathball and explode as soon as you round the corner tryin to kill that tech.

 

I was in a match on origin yesterday. Those red boxes? You can see them from one side (in your base) to the other side (in their base). I actually managed to hit people without seeing their mech models.

[Gunmoku]

I think at this point, discussing balance changes and shifting mechanics is essentially moot.  The thing is, if the Reloaded crew starts mucking with the formula a third (or was it fourth?) time, we're right back to square one back when Adhesive was around.  We'll just be flopping around in a constantly changing meta that honestly has very little needed to be changed in its current state, we'll be up in arms (again) for a reversion of changes, and nobody is gonna be happy. 

 

There's just way too much at stake at this point to change the game drastically when we just got back off the ground from a long stagnating period of near-silence.  We all really need to take a couple careful steps back and let things simmer back down, then start truly discussing what's next.

[Xacius]

well kinda. i mean you still easily flank you just have to walk around and be sneaky. but if i can boost around and flank it might get a little stupid. it would be herp derp im scout ima boostin behind you flak tow boom bam you ded

 

I think it'd emphasize communication and teamwork more than anything else.  

[TheVulong]

I think it'd emphasize communication and teamwork more than anything else.  

The game has no voice chat anymore tho. And there's no way people would be constantly typing in order to explain where the opponent is - there's literally no time for that.

 

P.S. I agree with hestoned: leave the game mechanics as it is now and focus on tweaking numbers instead. Hawken may just not survive another serious meta change. 

Edited by TheVulong, 26 March 2015 - 12:15 PM.

[palad1ne]

Like I pointed out earlier, this isn't good reasoning.

 

It operates under the assumption that if a game is tuned for competive players, then casual players won't have fun. But there's multiple extremely popular, high-grossing games that are tuned for competitive play, yet are extremely popular with casual players. This proves that the assumption is false, rendering the argument invalid.

 

This proves only one thing, that you come to false conclusions because of a distorted perception of reality. 

 

You compare "other" Games in good conditions with a nearly abandoned Game. Also no one said that Hawken could not be fun for every one. Casual, Comp and Pro. But to get there you need first attract New Players to form some Base which can grow into several classes. 

Also the past teached Hawken what happened when you please only Twitch Stars which they selfish demands like the pathetic TTK change and never ending nerf orgies, which rendered Hawken in a boring unbalanced FPS Shooter. Not to mention that the devs tried to take some back as they seen the mess, but it was too late then. 

 

If we want content and other nice Stuff, this Game must be in good condition and earn money for the investors and development. This will not work out with a bunch of selfish pubstompers. 

 

 

btw. i missed your BS Generator somehow :-)

Edited by palad1ne, 26 March 2015 - 10:50 PM.

[JeffMagnum]

Also the past teached Hawken what happened when you please only Twitch Stars which they selfish demands like the pathetic TTK change and never ending nerf orgies, which rendered Hawken in a boring unbalanced FPS Shooter. Not to mention that the devs tried to take some back as they seen the mess, but it was too late then. 

 

lol

[AsianJoyKiller]

This proves only one thing, that you come to false conclusions because of a distorted perception of reality.

Where's your proof?

 

You compare "other" Games in good conditions with a nearly abandoned Game.

Because the relation of the health of the game to how it is balanced is tangential at best.

Also no one said that Hawken could not be fun for every one. Casual, Comp and Pro.

Actually, several people used "If/then" statements that implied a mutually exclusive relationship between competitive balance and casual fun.

But to get there you need first attract New Players to form some Base which can grow into several classes.

You can't just adjust balance based on population. That's how you lose players. Constantly changing the balance means an unstable playerbase with low retention, which is the problem Hawken already has.
 

Also the past teached Hawken what happened when you please only Twitch Stars which they selfish demands like the pathetic TTK change and never ending nerf orgies, which rendered Hawken in a boring unbalanced FPS Shooter.

Completey untrue. I mean, none of that has any basis in reality. You can't just make up lies and state them as truth. This is why you have almost no credibility in this community. You do this all the time.

Not to mention that the devs tried to take some back as they seen the mess, but it was too late then. 

 

If we want content and other nice Stuff, this Game must be in good condition and earn money for the investors and development. This will not work out with a bunch of selfish pubstompers. 

 

You do realize that simply calling people, whose opinion you don't like, "selfish pubstompers" isn't actually a substitue for a valid argument, right?

[bacon_avenger]

I'm making some guesses here, so if I'm off, please correct me, but it fits with the major changes that were made from early open beta -> ascension -> 'Steam patch'
 

Also the past teached Hawken what happened when you please only Twitch Stars which they selfish demands like the pathetic TTK change and never ending nerf orgies, which rendered Hawken in a boring unbalanced FPS Shooter.

I'm guessing you are referring to the ascension patch?
 

Not to mention that the devs tried to take some back as they seen the mess, but it was too late then.

I'm guessing that this refers to the last patch were the tuning trees were removed, TTK was reduced, and was called the closest Hawken has been to early open beta since the ascension patch.

If the above are correct, then you are mistaken as the feedback from both HAB rounds (ascension patch testing groups) was overwhelmingly negative. Said HAB participants were, per ADH, the people who played the most (some times referred to as the hardcore players), many of which are the ones that you refer to as 'twitch stars'.

So even although I don't agree with some of the higher skilled players on various subjects, it's not fair to blame them for things that they argued against.

And yes, I was in the first round of HAB, so I have personal first hand experience as to who was in it and what the overall response to the ascension patch was.

[OdinTheWise]

I'm making some guesses here, so if I'm off, please correct me, but it fits with the major changes that were made from early open beta -> ascension -> 'Steam patch'
 

I'm guessing you are referring to the ascension patch?
 

I'm guessing that this refers to the last patch were the tuning trees were removed, TTK was reduced, and was called the closest Hawken has been to early open beta since the ascension patch.

If the above are correct, then you are mistaken as the feedback from both HAB rounds (ascension patch testing groups) was overwhelmingly negative. Said HAB participants were, per ADH, the people who played the most (some times referred to as the hardcore players), many of which are the ones that you refer to as 'twitch stars'.

So even although I don't agree with some of the higher skilled players on various subjects, it's not fair to blame them for things that they argued against.

And yes, I was in the first round of HAB, so I have personal first hand experience as to who was in it and what the overall response to the ascension patch was.

I too was in the first round of HAB and can confirm that it was garbage and no one liked the build. most of the "twitch stars" contrary to popular belief, really want whats best for hawken. bad things drive away players, which is bad for the pros

[Nept]

WRONG. WE WANT TO CRUSH NOOBS AND DREAMS.

[OdinTheWise]

WRONG. WE WANT TO CRUSH NOOBS AND DREAMS.

SHHHH we arnt supposed to talk about that

[M4st0d0n]

HAB splitted the community. You can name it anything you want, be it Advanced Battalion or Hawken Hero or Your Highness Fancypants, it's never good to split a community on purely subjective reason. So of course you cant blame anything on anyone, but you should make sure it wont happen again.

[Mergaz]

The problem is that there is clearly a predominant elitism among vets in this game culminating in the colossal failure of the players retention. This game will never have a competitive scene without a public to admire it right? Now let's be sensible and stop this false moralism that Hawken can not abandon its principles. This is a F2P game that has to have the best gameplay possible for attracting as many players quickly. We spent almost a year with the the abandoned game and now you want to keep the metagame that caused it due to not attract enough players to keep the interest in the development. We were lucky to get a new company for DEV and we can not expect the gameplay remains the same as it has proved totally ineffective in several attempts to gain and retain new players. This is a game that needs to generate money. Simple.

Edited by Mergaz, 28 March 2015 - 05:12 AM.

[JeffMagnum]

The problem is that there is clearly a predominant elitism among vets in this game culminating in the colossal failure of the players retention. This game will never have a competitive scene without a public to admire it right? Now let's be sensible and stop this false moralism that Hawken can not abandon its principles. This is a F2P game that has to have the best gameplay possible for attracting as many players as quickly as possible. We spent almost a year with the the abandoned game and now you want to keep the metagame that caused it due to not attract enough players to keep the interest in the development. We were lucky to get a new company set rights and we can not expect the gameplay remains the same as it has proved totally ineffective in several attempts to gain and retain new players. This is a game that needs to generate money. Simple.

https://community.pl...on-development/

Edited by JeffMagnum, 28 March 2015 - 05:11 AM.

[Nept]

It's like he's following a script.

Edited by Nept, 28 March 2015 - 05:14 AM.

[Mergaz]

https://community.pl...on-development/

This post only repeated what I said in several posts that still did in 2013 telling the staff that the current metagame would not attract the players needed to keep the game alive as f2p. I was unfortunately not heard at the time and even ridiculed, including by NEPT that said UT, Quake and other games still had space in the current market of f2p games. The world really turns around.

 I personally do not believe that a F2P should be aggressive in getting money because there can become easily one P2W, but it should rather invest in number of players with a new gameplay, because now someone will only invest in an online F2P game if you have those who admire for their achievements in this game.

Edited by Mergaz, 28 March 2015 - 05:47 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

The problem is that there is clearly a predominant elitism among vets in this game culminating in the colossal failure of the players retention.

 

First off, that's a fallacy of poisoning the well.
Secondly, where's the data that proves this is the case?

 

 

Now let's be sensible and stop this false moralism that Hawken can not abandon its principles. This is a F2P game that has to have the best gameplay possible for attracting as many players quickly. We spent almost a year with the the abandoned game and now you want to keep the metagame that caused it due to not attract enough players to keep the interest in the development. We were lucky to get a new company for DEV and we can not expect the gameplay remains the same as it has proved totally ineffective in several attempts to gain and retain new players. This is a game that needs to generate money. Simple.

 

Now let's be sensible and stop this false pretense that Hawken can abandon its principles. This is a F2P game that has to have the best gameplay possible for attracting as many players quickly.

We spent almost a year with the abandoned game that managed to keep a small, but stable playerbase, and now you want to completely rework the balance again which played a huge role in poor player retention in the first place. We were lucky to get a new developers, and we cannot expect the gameplay to change significantly as doing so in the past has proved extremely effective in driving away large amounts of players who had previously been part of the core playerbase.

This game needs to grow that stable core to generate money. Simple.

Additionally, there's no real evidence that Hawken could succeed by changing genres. There's no evidnce that shows that Hawken, a game with a history of failure, can compete with an already established franchise that has over 2 decades of influence behind it and a game that is, at this point, a success.

 

This post only repeated what I said in several posts that still did in 2013 telling the staff that the current metagame would not attract the players needed to keep the game alive as f2p. I was unfortunately not heard at the time and even ridiculed, including by NEPT that said UT, Quake and other games still had space in the current market of f2p games. The world really turns around.

 I personally do not believe that a F2P should be aggressive in getting money because there can become easily one P2W, but it should rather invest in number of players with a new gameplay, because now someone will only invest in an online F2P game if you have those who admire for their achievements in this game.

This entire post is a non-argument. You sound like Mitt Romney trying to describe his 5-step plan. A lot of noise about the generalities of how you can fix the state of things, and improve, but no details on what actually would make it work, and a lot of unverifiable claims.

[Nept]

I was unfortunately not heard at the time and even ridiculed, including by NEPT that said UT, Quake and other games still had space in the current market of f2p games. The world really turns around.

[Mergaz]

Seriously you want to speak of a pre-alpha which has neither funding? You just forgot to say that this game is dependent of voluntary work to have their development. We can not consider this a game yet, but a prototype that has not been exposed to the consumer market as F2P. This is only a prototype without real investors and is hunting cheap labor of fans. I do not consider that even a F2P. It is too early to try to dream that this will make some financial success is not it?

Edited by Mergaz, 28 March 2015 - 03:53 PM.

[Mergaz]

First off, that's a fallacy of poisoning the well.
Secondly, where's the data that proves this is the case?

 

 

Now let's be sensible and stop this false pretense that Hawken can abandon its principles. This is a F2P game that has to have the best gameplay possible for attracting as many players quickly.

We spent almost a year with the abandoned game that managed to keep a small, but stable playerbase, and now you want to completely rework the balance again which played a huge role in poor player retention in the first place. We were lucky to get a new developers, and we cannot expect the gameplay to change significantly as doing so in the past has proved extremely effective in driving away large amounts of players who had previously been part of the core playerbase.

This game needs to grow that stable core to generate money. Simple.

Additionally, there's no real evidence that Hawken could succeed by changing genres. There's no evidnce that shows that Hawken, a game with a history of failure, can compete with an already established franchise that has over 2 decades of influence behind it and a game that is, at this point, a success.

 

This entire post is a non-argument. You sound like Mitt Romney trying to describe his 5-step plan. A lot of noise about the generalities of how you can fix the state of things, and improve, but no details on what actually would make it work, and a lot of unverifiable claims.

 

As I said all changes since ascension were made so far have been to turn this game into a shoter arena, but as the changes were going in steam patch to make this more like old titles: UT, Xsteel, Quake, its population fell decreasing to the point where DEVs noted the lack of return on their efforts and simply ceased development to move the game to another company. I think much better they turn the game on  original idea of 2011 that really attracted players and investors: a mech FPS with full immersion and elements that could really have done a good game and not this caricature that was only rescued because of its graphics and not by the size of your playerbase.

Edited by Mergaz, 28 March 2015 - 04:34 PM.

[Nept]

http://www.fallacyfi...g/specplea.html

[Nov8tr]

[AsianJoyKiller]

As I said all changes since ascesion were made so far have been to turn this game into a shoter arena,

You can't turn something into what it already was.

 

 

but as the changes were going in steam patch to make this more like old titles: UT, Xsteel, Quake,

So you're admitting they decided to make it more like the more popular version of Hawken before Ascension.

 

 

its population fell decreasing to the point where DEVs noted the lack of return on their efforts and simply ceased development to move the game to another company.

That's not what happened. You do understand you can't just make up things and they become true, right?

 

 

I think much better they turn the game on  original idea of 2011 that really attracted players and investors: a mech FPS with full immersion and elements that could really have done a good game and not this caricature that was only rescued because of its graphics and not by the size of your playerbase.

Again, you can't just make things up. Hawken, even in it's Alpha state, was not some mech sim. It was a fast-paced arena shooter.

I hope you realize you can't just continually lie about what Hawken was and expect people to believe it.

[Mergaz]

You can't turn something into what it already was.

 

So you're admitting they decided to make it more like the more popular version of Hawken before Ascension.

 

That's not what happened. You do understand you can't just make up things and they become true, right?

 

Again, you can't just make things up. Hawken, even in it's Alpha state, was not some mech sim. It was a fast-paced arena shooter.

I hope you realize you can't just continually lie about what Hawken was and expect people to believe it.

OFFICIAL GAMEPLAY OF 2011

Edited by Mergaz, 28 March 2015 - 04:45 PM.

[JeffMagnum]

Hawken was never like that. A lot of the sounds and SFX there are post-production. And I'm not even sure what you're trying to prove, since that's probably closer to the current build in terms of speed (especially air speed, which is even faster there for most mechs) than Ascension was. 

Edited by JeffMagnum, 28 March 2015 - 04:45 PM.

[Mergaz]

Hawken was never like that. A lot of the sounds and SFX there are post-production. And I'm not even sure what you're trying to prove, since that's probably closer to the current build in terms of speed (especially air speed, which is even faster there for most mechs) than Ascension was. 

And what prevents you from being so in the future?

PS: without AC and air dodge in video

Edited by Mergaz, 28 March 2015 - 04:54 PM.

[JeffMagnum]

What? I was talking about this: 

 

As I said all changes since ascension were made so far have been to turn this game into a shoter arena, but as the changes were going in steam patch to make this more like old titles: UT, Xsteel, Quake, its population fell decreasing to the point where DEVs noted the lack of return on their efforts and simply ceased development to move the game to another company. I think much better they turn the game on  original idea of 2011 that really attracted players and investors: a mech FPS with full immersion and elements that could really have done a good game and not this caricature that was only rescued because of its graphics and not by the size of your playerbase.

 

and especially

 

I think much better they turn the game on  original idea of 2011 that really attracted players and investors

 

 

That's what happened with the recent updates. Did you play Ascension? It wasn't nearly as fast as the demo you linked to. Check those Zerker-esque air speeds at 1:40 to 1:45.

Edited by JeffMagnum, 28 March 2015 - 04:58 PM.

[Mergaz]

What? I was talking about this: 

 

 

 

and especially

 

 

 

That's what happened with the recent updates. Did you play Ascension? It wasn't nearly as fast as the demo you linked to. 

Throughout the video I hardly saw almost dodges in land and at the time there was no air dodge despite using fuel for flight to be much smaller and mechs get flying long time.

Edited by Mergaz, 28 March 2015 - 05:05 PM.

[JeffMagnum]

Yeah, AC didn't exist and some aspects were slower, but it's stretching the truth pretty far to describe that as what you want for the future of the Hawken. Maybe it's similar aesthetically, but it's completely different in terms of gameplay. 

[Xacius]

You can't turn something into what it already was.

1 * 1 = 1

 

[AsianJoyKiller]

OFFICIAL GAMEPLAY OF 2011

Official footage of a PRE-ALPHA build. At that point, Hawken wasn't a game. It was basically a tech demo.

Mergaz, a simple question. When did you start playing Hawken?

[TheVulong]

Don't know about the rest but i got into Hawken because it was an awesome looking mech game. And only when i've actually played it i've found out that it is a decent arena shooter as well. So if at some point it stops being a mech game and completely turns into an arena shooter, i'll probably leave and forget about it because as a bare arena shooter Hawken won't stand a chance against something like UT or Quake.

Edited by TheVulong, 29 March 2015 - 12:58 AM.

[Leonhardt]

Don't know about the rest but i got into Hawken because it was an awesome looking mech game. And only when i've actually played it i've found out that it is a decent arena shooter as well. So if at some point it stops being a mech game and completely turns into an arena shooter, i'll probably leave and forget about it because as a bare arena shooter Hawken won't stand a chance against something like UT or Quake.

 

The basis for what a "mech" game is has absolutely nothing to do with what you "think" a mech should be since a "mech" is a scifi created element in a story meant to immerse a player in a world/story. How the writer/game creator decides to frame that "mech" whether they be large, slow machines or fast zippy machines is completely up to the story teller. In this case that was up to Adhesive and is now up to the new devs. How you "feel" a "mech" should be does not make the mechs in Hawken any less so, but in your personal case it most certainly does because you have confined your idea of "mechs" to a certain set of criteria. In science fiction constraining ones self to a certain set of criteria not laid out in the story will make for a rough time of enjoying the story or game in this case.

Edited by Leonhardt, 29 March 2015 - 06:33 AM.

[TheVulong]

How you "feel" a "mech" should be does not make the mechs in Hawken any less so, but in your personal case it most certainly does because you have confined your idea of "mechs" to a certain set of criteria. 

True. And that criteria is 12.12.12 build.