176 replies to this topic

[WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW]

@RedVan, TheVulong:

Flanking only shines in larger matchups and because of deathballs where there is a lot of auditory information that would mask the sound of someone flanking. It's a pretty emergent strategy in response to the large amount of healing in team fights. Given this, removing radar would absolutely make flanking easier, since the flanker will consistently know where the enemy is based on the enemy's likely strategy (deathballing) or emission of information like the sound of weapons fire.

 

"Knowing where your opponent is, however, will cause mindless and careless play" is a false statement. Access to information does not lead to mindless and careless play. Information is information and what separates skilled players from those less skilled, apart from mechanics like aim, is how decisions are made based on that information.

 

Radar as implemented in a game like CSGO or even Titanfall does a lot to remove the tedium that not having a radar at all causes since it operates only to report absolutely concrete, verifiable information for a team. This is what I would like to call an "accessibility" type radar. Radar as implemented in Hawken undeniably provides a lot more information than simple accessibility. Enemy radar points continue to be active and track the actual mech for full seconds after they disappear behind cover and break all line of sight.

 

Having said all that, I think removing radar is a terrifically bad idea. It would really only serve to help those players that like repetitive tasks like spinning around constantly to check behind one's back. Such removal would place emphasis on twitch aspects of Hawken that would be incredibly annoying to deal with because of capped turn rate. Additionally, Hawken is a team game, and total removal of radar would drastically damage the experience of casual players who don't necessarily want to be in a high-stress game constantly reporting the positions of the enemy and themselves (without considering that this constant stream of information requires a microphone to provide), while at high levels, constant position reporting of oneself would really be more of a nuisance and chore. Radar removal would be an incredibly wasteful move that ignores that the main problems that the radar's mechanics are, relative to a lot of other games, provide a lot more than simple accessibility, and the presence of the Scanner item and its mechanics.

 

@OP:

 

I see that Nept and I are in agreement that Hawken really needs more content than it needs precise balance tweaks. However, I would like to see some new mechs too. I am very interested in seeing unique mechs, however, not more recycled content mechs (I really don't think Hawken needs more mechs restricted to SMC, AR, TOW, GL, or some combination thereof, but more mechs like Raider, Incinerator wrt concept, G2 Assault wrt uniqueness of double-sustain but flawed by G2 Weapons Coolant recycling).

 

The other issues are not particularly important except to competitive players. I'm a little bothered that competitive credential is thrown around so much despite there seeming to be only about 1 to 1.5 teams worth of highly skilled players though.

Edited by WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW, 25 March 2015 - 11:22 AM.

[eth0]

What I follow so far is definitely no game balance changes, but incin, tech maybe. Map and remote det could use tweaks but only after we're into the woods with updates and have a baseline for Hawken by Reloaded. Changing how internals work can help game balance witohut affecting mech balance, so that's cool. What we probably need sooner is economy balance, a UI that isn't butt (lol market), and private servers. If possible, cosmetics and maps are nice, too.

 

So, by tweaking remote detonation are we talking about a "click-to-fire, hold-to-cook" type deal? Because I really like that idea.
Scanner is still the worst.

[Leonhardt]

So, by tweaking remote detonation are we talking about a "click-to-fire, hold-to-cook" type deal? Because I really like that idea.
Scanner is still the worst.

 

If that is directed at Nept than he means the removal of remote det if not a huge reduction in its effectiveness and yes scanner is the worst

[SigmaOmega]

I have to agree with a lot of the points. It would be nice to have a sort of group meeting on teamspeak to discuss a whole more deeply than what is done the forums.

[eth0]

If that is directed at Nept than he means the removal of remote det if not a huge reduction in its effectiveness and yes scanner is the worst

It's for anyone here talking about remote det tweaking. We can raise the skill ceiling without removing the mechanics that lower it. Modify the mechanics to be more difficult to master (hold-to-cook vs click-as-desired) or handicap them (greater direct hit dmg, direct sight only for map) and there's lots of middle ground to explore before it might be decided to remove it.

 

I'd like to see the map nerfed, too. I think too many things cause baddies to pop up on your radar or stay there for too long, but that's not as subtle as a remote det tweak.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Too much focus on the competitive "scene". Be careful how "competitive" you want this game be, go too far and you make the game less accessible than it already is. Hawken needs new players, not keeping a small % of quasi pro's happy. Hawken needs a balance of depth, and accessibility, please don't add so much depth that an average player can't have a good time anymore. Hawken really, desperately, needs more players.

 

This is actually not true. Just look at any MOBA. Huge focus on balance based on what pro players can do with mechanics. And yet they still are popular with casual players. Truth is, a game can be tuned for profession level player, yet still fun for significantly less skilled players.

Accessiblity, in other words the skill floor, can be handled seperately from the skill ceiling.

 

I'm not entirely against removal of remote detonation, but a few other changes would need to accompany it.  Air maneuverability is an obvious concern, but map geometry is a big problem as well.  I can't count how many times I've been denied explosive damage because of the uneven floors and invisible corners.  Projectile speed might need to be increased as well.

Ever look at the maps with no textures on them? It's atrocious how many little ledges and protrusions there are.

[Leonhardt]

It's for anyone here talking about remote det tweaking. We can raise the skill ceiling without removing the mechanics that lower it. Modify the mechanics to be more difficult to master (hold-to-cook vs click-as-desired) or handicap them (greater direct hit dmg, direct sight only for map) and there's lots of middle ground to explore before it might be decided to remove it.

 

I'd like to see the map nerfed, too. I think too many things cause baddies to pop up on your radar or stay there for too long, but that's not as subtle as a remote det tweak.

 

I have agreed with Nept for quite some time that for the most part Hawken is in a great spot as far as balance is concerned. The very few things that are unbalanced have been unbalanced for a long time (radar, scanner, remote det) and two of those 3 things are universally available so they aren't big problems for how the game currently plays.

 

I have always felt that 3 changes would make the game play far better.

 

TOW and GL changes

 

First being that the TOW have its remote det removed in favor of higher direct hit damage and a SLIGHT increase in splash radius (please note by slight I mean VERY SMALL as it has more to do with the radius of the GL after the change than anything else). See below, but in effect I want the splash radius of the TOW to be about the same as the changed GL, but with a slightly higher scaling splash damage (more damage for splash because it has to hit a surface and its base damage is increased). *Note: I don't feel the TOW needs to increase in speed for this change and I only bring this up because I know a lot of older players might think that I am saying we should bring back oldschool TOW which I am not.

 

Second would be to slightly decrease the splash radius on the GL at present it can hit mechs with its splash about 1 dodge length away (using A class model) meaning that aiming it takes very little other than shooting where the mech was and pressing right mouse button for some free damage (decreasing the splash radius makes this far less effective without taking away a lot of the advantages of the weapon).

 

 

Radar Change

 

Last, but not least is the radar. It is my opinion that the radar should not pick up boosting mechs unless that mech has been seen by a teammate or self. On the current radar after boosting a target is removed from radar if they are 1.) not seen and 2.) not doing an action that causes radar to pick them up again. This function is essentially on a timer that takes those 2 factors into consideration before taking a target off of the radar. My only change proposed is to take boosting (perhaps just ground boosting if we want to go that route) and take it off of the list for check #2 in the above. So if the player is no longer seen after the timer then they are removed from radar and not added back for boosting (perhaps again boosting only on the ground).

 

Of the 3 changes the radar change is the biggest in my opinion as it opens up a very WIDE variety of options to all players and teams in both pub matches and competitive play as well as going a long way to making duels far more interesting. This change is not hard to implement (as far as I know, but I am not looking at the code) and testing would be minimal. Hell we could test it for them on private servers if they just gave us a command to change the radar to this function (VERY HAPPY TO DO THIS FOR YOU).

 

 

P.S. I forgot to mention that scanner should just be removed from the game if not completely reworked. That thing is beyond OP.

[OdinTheWise]

This is actually not true. Just look at any MOBA. Huge focus on balance based on what pro players can do with mechanics. And yet they still are popular with casual players. Truth is, a game can be tuned for profession level player, yet still fun for significantly less skilled players.

Accessiblity, in other words the skill floor, can be handled seperately from the skill ceiling.

 

Ever look at the maps with no textures on them? It's atrocious how many little ledges and protrusions there are

 

MOBA and arena shooter are apples and oranges. that is like comparing golf to tennis.

[AsianJoyKiller]

MOBA and arena shooter are apples and oranges. that is like comparing golf to tennis.

CS gets tuned for professional play. Still extremely popular with casual players.

The logic is solid, therefor I can just insert a game of a different genre and it still work.

It's not actually apples and oranges, because genre isn't the issue. You're focusing on the wrong thing.

[DerMax]

CS gets tuned for professional play. Still extremely popular with casual players.

This is true. CS:GO is constantly updated based on the professional players' opinions, which is part of what makes this game so cool.

 

Though the damn Tec-9 is still there xD

[Sylhiri]

I have to agree with a lot of the points. It would be nice to have a sort of group meeting on teamspeak to discuss a whole more deeply than what is done the forums.

 

With who exactly? No point in discussing something if you just talk to the same people who agree with you*.

 

*Not you personally, in general.

[ticklemyiguana]

With who exactly? No point in discussing something if you just talk to the same people who agree with you*.

*Not you personally, in general.

While I think the forums and text chat lend a more organized feel to the discussion, I won't deny that we've already had some pretty lengthy debates over voice on the Hawken TeamSpeak. Even my closer friends in the game, who I play with and talk with consistently, disagree with some things I have to say.
The TeamSpeak is actually getting to be somewhat representative of the community as a whole- though I don't think that sort of setting is the best place for a debate unless it's well moderated.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 25 March 2015 - 12:43 PM.

[Superkamikazee]

Is there a reason why radar can't just be used like idk, every other shooter? When you fire a weapon, you show up on radar. Movement, not on radar. There, solved. This tweak could potentially make game speed a non issue as well. I remember back in the days of yesterpast where there was a massive out cry from the GOD's that the game was too slow, when in reality it was probably the stupid radar system that forced the need for an increase in movement speed.

Also, TTK, wtf. Are we ok with the tin cans we have now? I'd love for a proper radar, and higher TTK. Give me a damn chance to turn around to get a few shots in.

[Valimer]

This is true. CS:GO is constantly updated based on the professional players' opinions, which is part of what makes this game so cool.

 

Though the damn Tec-9 is still there xD

 

CS:GO has a difficult learning curve and still is popular for two reasons:

 

1. Valve spends money on tournament events that are cast online for people to watch. This is a huge PR stunt. It creates hype for the game. Basically, it's a lot of advertising.

 

2. Player created content. People love creating content for the game and because of Valve's genius way of creating content for the players, there is an endless amount of content that can be put into the game with little work on the side of the devs.

 

source: http://gamasutra.com...GO_economy.php 

45:40 mark of the video

[AsianJoyKiller]

I was think about this while grocery shopping, and I've come to the following conclusion: I agree with Nept. It is imperitive that Reloaded doesn't muck about with the general balance (aside from a few possible exceptions).

 

Why do I agree with this?

 

Because going through radical balance changes every few months is one of the major things that ****ed ADH in the *** and lost them a lot of players.

 

I think it's safe to say that at this point Hawken has a solid core playerbase. A small one, but one that has stuck with it through thick and thin. Reloaded should look into how to expand on that playerbase, rather than trying to create and attract a new one. And they need to realize Hawken probably isn't going to be "the next big thing". They should be focusing on building a small, but dedicated community to a niche game.

Fact is, I probably won't end up being part of that community. The current balance of Hawken doesn't have the magic earlier versions did for me. But as I see it, focusing on expanding based on the current balance is how I see Hawken best succeeding and surviving.

[eth0]

quotes

Remote det is still a "click for free damage" after you have fired. A hold-to-cook style forces you to decide beforehand. Though I think splash could be tweaking, but not anytime soon.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

 

Fact is, I probably won't end up being part of that community. The current balance of Hawken doesn't have the magic earlier versions did for me. But as I see it, focusing on expanding based on the current balance is how I see Hawken best succeeding and surviving.

If you don't mind me asking, what was the 'magic' the earlier versions had?

Edited by Hijinks_The_Turtle, 25 March 2015 - 01:46 PM.

[Gunmoku]

Really at the point it's at, not very much needs changing with Hawken.  Balance is nearly there with existing mechs, combat feels nearly right, just some light tweaks to the Tech and aerial handling across the board and there really could be a great competitive scene ready to arise again.  Really the major issues at this point would be to address server stability, map designs, and figuring out what kind of content could be released next.

[AsianJoyKiller]

If you don't mind me asking, what was the 'magic' the earlier versions had?

High TTK, unsafe healing, extremely fast movement speeds, lack of powerful internals, and classes dependant on gimmicks.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

High TTK, unsafe healing, extremely fast movement speeds, lack of powerful internals, and classes dependant on gimmicks.

Gotta admit, the unsafe healing aspect was something that I wanted to try out in the game.  Though, I came in about right when ascension hit I believe. :C

[palad1ne]

Too much focus on the competitive "scene". Be careful how "competitive" you want this game be, go too far and you make the game less accessible than it already is. Hawken needs new players, not keeping a small % of quasi pro's happy. Hawken needs a balance of depth, and accessibility, please don't add so much depth that an average player can't have a good time anymore. Hawken really, desperately, needs more players.

 

Well said. This, serving too much the needs of elite players, was one of the reason that many casual players leave and never looked back. The handful twitch superstars will not pay the rent and not stop the sad pubstomping with smurf accounts. 

Everyone play to have fun in the first place. Frustration is not a good sales magnet. 

[AsianJoyKiller]

Well said. This, serving too much the needs of elite players, was one of the reason that many casual players leave and never looked back. The handful twitch superstars will not pay the rent and not stop the sad pubstomping with smurf accounts. 

Everyone play to have fun in the first place. Frustration is not a good sales magnet. 

Like I pointed out earlier, this isn't good reasoning.

 

It operates under the assumption that if a game is tuned for competive players, then casual players won't have fun. But there's multiple extremely popular, high-grossing games that are tuned for competitive play, yet are extremely popular with casual players. This proves that the assumption is false, rendering the argument invalid.

[MomOw]

the statement is "easy to learn, hard to master". But there should be other way to learn rather than being stomped for a hundred hours by high ranked players before learning to time a TOW shot on a scout correctly.

Edited by MomOw, 25 March 2015 - 02:59 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

the statement is "easy to learn, hard to master". But there should be other way to learn rather than being stomped for a hundred hours by high ranked players before learning to time a TOW shot on a scout correctly.

That's where matchmaking comes in.

But, of course, with a low population there's a Catch-22.

[Superkamikazee]

Well whatever happens I hope it happens sooner than later. Hawken has some momentum and buzz going here. The last couple of days the concurrent player base has doubled in comparison to what it's been over the last several months. 

[RedVan]

First of all, i think you're full of sh*t and i start to hate you.

 

Second, You CONSTANTLY have to pay attention to the radar in order to not get your a$$ handed over to you and to be of use for your team. The radar directly affects your positioning and decision making as it gives you the info you need in order to plan and execute your next action.  In other words, it directly affects your map awareness. And good map awareness is one of those things that distinguishes a good player from a bad player.

 

 

Your reasoning doesn't justify your statement. 

 

No offense, but constantly paying attention to the radar is so second nature, it's not really something very many of your brain bytes are needing to process.  Yes, currently you keep the radar in your cross scan because everyone basically knows where everyone is, and if you don't spend those very few brain bytes on it, you can get burned.

 

By reducing the effectiveness of radar, however, you will still need to spend just as much brain bytes on it, however now you also need to focus attention on looking around the map.  Lets be honest, there's nothing difficult when you know exactly where the enemy is.  When you don't know exactly where they are, you need to plan multiple contingencies, as opposed to just the one or couple, that applies to the current radar scan.  Therefore, your next actions need to be more thought out as things can be quite different than what you may have perceived.

 

Yes, radar directly affects your map awareness, but it's the computer doing the work for you.  It's making you aware of where the enemy is, as opposed to you actually having to keep track of where the enemy is and plan for what you don't know.

 

A good player is able to do such planning.  A not as good player has a radar to do it for them.

 

 

Flanking:

Me:  "Flanking will not be trivial w/o radar, because then ALL players on BOTH teams will have to KEEP GREATER LOOKOUT in ALL directions ALL THE TIME!"

 

Vulong:  "Your reasoning doesn't justify your statement."

 

With radar, it's extremely easy to catch a flanker.  W/O radar, or a more limited radar, people are going to have to do all the things I mentioned above in regards to having multiple contingencies, etc... 

 

 

 

 

@RedVan, TheVulong:

Flanking only shines in larger matchups and because of deathballs where there is a lot of auditory information that would mask the sound of someone flanking. It's a pretty emergent strategy in response to the large amount of healing in team fights. Given this, removing radar would absolutely make flanking easier, since the flanker will consistently know where the enemy is based on the enemy's likely strategy (deathballing) or emission of information like the sound of weapons fire.

 

"Knowing where your opponent is, however, will cause mindless and careless play" is a false statement. Access to information does not lead to mindless and careless play. Information is information and what separates skilled players from those less skilled, apart from mechanics like aim, is how decisions are made based on that information.

 

Radar as implemented in a game like CSGO or even Titanfall does a lot to remove the tedium that not having a radar at all causes since it operates only to report absolutely concrete, verifiable information for a team. This is what I would like to call an "accessibility" type radar. Radar as implemented in Hawken undeniably provides a lot more information than simple accessibility. Enemy radar points continue to be active and track the actual mech for full seconds after they disappear behind cover and break all line of sight.

 

Having said all that, I think removing radar is a terrifically bad idea. It would really only serve to help those players that like repetitive tasks like spinning around constantly to check behind one's back. Such removal would place emphasis on twitch aspects of Hawken that would be incredibly annoying to deal with because of capped turn rate. Additionally, Hawken is a team game, and total removal of radar would drastically damage the experience of casual players who don't necessarily want to be in a high-stress game constantly reporting the positions of the enemy and themselves (without considering that this constant stream of information requires a microphone to provide), while at high levels, constant position reporting of oneself would really be more of a nuisance and chore. Radar removal would be an incredibly wasteful move that ignores that the main problems that the radar's mechanics are, relative to a lot of other games, provide a lot more than simple accessibility, and the presence of the Scanner item and its mechanics.

 

My statement is in relation to not knowing where the enemy is.  You really don't need to put as much thought into where or what the enemy is doing when there is a radar telling you exactly that, which you essentially go on to say yourself in the next paragraph :)  So yes, players can be either good or bad at interpreting what the current radar is telling them, however, imo, that's a much easier skill to learn than having to determine that information for yourself, and then make decisions on top of that.

 

 

Also note it is a 3rd person game, where situation pacing is managed very well with a large 3rd person cam and large distances to adjust and predict over. Also I feel no need to play a game like that so.... idk how that applies. 

I'll talk about your vid in the other thread.  As for this quote:  People primarily played in 1st person.  He just happened to be trying it out in 3rd person.  Also, ones ability to see more around them has absolutely nothing to do with the point that people are able to land direct hits with projectile rockets in games with greater aerial maneuverability than Hawken, which happened to be the point I was making... 

 

It would be more beneficial to respond to the actual point, rather than making up some side point in an attempt to diminish the real point.

[WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW]

My statement is in relation to not knowing where the enemy is.  You really don't need to put as much thought into where or what the enemy is doing when there is a radar telling you exactly that, which you essentially go on to say yourself in the next paragraph :)  So yes, players can be either good or bad at interpreting what the current radar is telling them, however, imo, that's a much easier skill to learn than having to determine that information for yourself, and then make decisions on top of that.

Well, yes, I agreed with points that both of you made. There just seemed to be a breakdown of communications and I wanted to help bring it back. I also agree with the point about interpreting data compared to finding information for oneself, but I want to express that removal of radar is one extreme that, while not intrinsically bad, is not something that would fit Hawken so much as it might fit a survival-horror game or a game that in general was constructed around the pacing that total lack of radar would push toward. To summarize my view, I only dislike how I can swap the main game screen with the radar wrt screen space and still do well in its present iteration.

My personal experience is also that of being glued to the radar. Flanking enemies cannot flank presently largely because of the radar scanner, not the radar itself. Whenever there is not a radar scanner somewhere though, a well-executed flank is still relatively effective.

[crockrocket]

-snip-

Off topic sorry, but how is your name that long? Is it like the same situation as massive_assailant_stingray?

[RedVan]

Well, yes, I agreed with points that both of you made. There just seemed to be a breakdown of communications and I wanted to help bring it back. I also agree with the point about interpreting data compared to finding information for oneself, but I want to express that removal of radar is one extreme that, while not intrinsically bad, is not something that would fit Hawken so much as it might fit a survival-horror game or a game that in general was constructed around the pacing that total lack of radar would push toward. To summarize my view, I only dislike how I can swap the main game screen with the radar wrt screen space and still do well in its present iteration.

My personal experience is also that of being glued to the radar. Flanking enemies cannot flank presently largely because of the radar scanner, not the radar itself. Whenever there is not a radar scanner somewhere though, a well-executed flank is still relatively effective.

 

I personally don't mind there being a radar, I just feel it needs to be reworked.  Currently it's like playing hide and seek in an open field with no grass.

[WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW]

Off topic sorry, but how is your name that long? Is it like the same situation as massive_assailant_stingray?

They both are typically considered to be one token or word for word wrap purposes and software that isn't specifically meant for word processing typically won't include any sort of extra logic for very long tokens (whereas a word processor might split a word with a dash). This is the most likely theory I have.

 

I personally don't mind there being a radar, I just feel it needs to be reworked.  Currently it's like playing hide and seek in an open field with no grass.

That's cool, me too.

[TheVulong]

Not gonna bother with trying to get my point across to RedVan for the third time and instead will say that the radar is what prevents the overly agressive and reckless play, it's the only thing that makes you think twice before taking a high risk action and it punishes you for not being carefull. That said, let's not forget that movement is still a king in this game and when you decide to get rid of the mechanic that tracks enemy movement, you directly increase the benefits of having superior movement options. In other words, the A class is gonna be having a blast against B and C due to the fact that it can change positions and go around the map so quickly without being noticed, which also means that it will constantly be able to pull off surprise attacks and that puts more emphasis on the "i shot you first therefore i win" trend that was brought into play with the lowered TTK. 

Edited by TheVulong, 25 March 2015 - 09:24 PM.

[RedVan]

Not gonna bother with trying to get my point across to RedVan for the third time and instead will say that the radar is what prevents the overly agressive and reckless play, it's the only thing that makes you think twice before taking a high risk action and it punishes you for not being carefull. That said, let's not forget that movement is still a king in this game and when you decide to get rid of the mechanic that tracks enemy movement, you directly increase the benefits of having superior movement options. In other words, the A class is gonna be having a blast against B and C due to the fact that it can change positions and go around the map so quickly without being noticed, which also means that it will constantly be able to pull off surprise attacks and that puts more emphasis on the "i shot you first therefore i win" trend that was brought into play with the lowered TTK. 

 

So, you think that people are going to be careless and rush into areas where they're not sure whether the enemy is there or not?  I'm sure bad players will, but then bad players aren't putting the current radar to use either...  so nothing new there...

 

Your conclusion is quite illogical.  No radar means people will be careless... come on.  When you look down a dark alley in the middle of the night, do you just go frolicking right in?  No, uncertainty causes caution.  Simple as that.

[LEmental]

I think the trade off between being sneaking and going fast (boosting) is an interesting one.

 

Radar is VERY strong right now.  Limiting it would create more oppertunities for aggression.

 

Removing detination would raise the skill ceiling in an interesting way.  Dodging will be more useful and players will need to be more sneaking about the angles they fire from

 

The AC doesn't nessicarily make the game deeper. 

Adding a skill shot to detination will not make the game better.  (Please listen to this podcast about "cocain logic")

 

We need better maps.  People in the community can make them FOR FREE.

Overall the game is fairly well balance and functional.

Edited by LEmental, 25 March 2015 - 09:33 PM.

[LarryLaffer]

I drastically don't have enough of time to write a wall of text with detailed explanations of my thoughts and suggestions while I really want to . Maybe I'll do it at the end of the week.

 

Right now I want to give some short commentaries.

 

1. We definitely don't have enough of time and resources to make alot of big changes. We have to take some part of the current game as a basis and tweak other things according to this basis (mechs, movements, maps, weapons etc etc).

 

2. I think that current balance state is mostly ok.

 

3. The major balance issues right now are Incinerator, deathballs and Technician as it's part, portable scanner. Air Compressor is a corner stone, because it's standing out too much from other internals and makes huge impact to the gameplay. While I don't like it in aesthetical aspect, I can accept it for the sake of Hawken's success with some minor tweaks.

 

4. The minor balance issues are C-class abilities, Assault and CR-T as similar mechs, alot of same weapons on different mechs, which makes them difficult to balance between each other. Fuel is unimportant resource now. Some internals are rarely used. Something else maybe, but I can't remember right now.

 

5. The Radar and scanner: portable scanner shouldn't detect camouflaged mechs. They should have an opportunity to play their role, flanking and backstabbing. If you want to tweak the radar itself then maybe Battlefield radar system with 3D spotting should fit Hawken too,

 

6. About removing remote det, I think that we should be very cautious here. I don't think that it is a good idea to implement it right now. We should form a core of Hawken as I said in p.1 and then we will see if such change will fit in current balance without hurting it too much.

 

Let's change things calm and steady. There is no need to rush.

 

Cheers!

Edited by LarryLaffer, 25 March 2015 - 10:55 PM.

[teeth_03]

I think a lot of these disagreements can be solved with custom servers.

Want to turn off radar? Could be a server option

Want to not see certain mechs in the game like a Tech? Could be a server option

Want to have a higher TTK like with a health multiplier? Could be a server option

Leave the current "official" game alone but give playets the ability to rent and customize servers. Definetly make sure there is something in the server browser to filter standard and custom. It would also be nice if custom servers didn't stop you from earning HC and XP as well.

[Houruck]

The private servers actually featured mutators. For example you could turn off the radar for everyone. It goes without saying it made flanking quite easy. I still do not want them to remove the radar from the game because I think it is an essential part of HAWKEN.

There is also a mutator to disable the repair orbs. And you can chain them together (thanks DaPheel).

[LarryLaffer]

Leave the current "official" game alone but give playets the ability to rent and customize servers. Definetly make sure there is something in the server browser to filter standard and custom. It would also be nice if custom servers didn't stop you from earning HC and XP as well.

System like this works fine in such games as Quake Live and Battlefield 3/4. I think it will work for Hawken too.

[TheVulong]

I think a lot of these disagreements can be solved with custom servers.

Want to turn off radar? Could be a server option

Want to not see certain mechs in the game like a Tech? Could be a server option

Want to have a higher TTK like with a health multiplier? Could be a server option

Leave the current "official" game alone but give playets the ability to rent and customize servers. Definetly make sure there is something in the server browser to filter standard and custom. It would also be nice if custom servers didn't stop you from earning HC and XP as well.

I'm all up for that, considering that the custom servers are already a thing.

[HorseHeadProphet]

Might as well weigh in here with all the experts chiming in here with their whopping 100 hours of gameplay. I'm seeing a lot of new people coming in, as well as fair-weather fans coming back, and trying to dictate what the game needs. "I was too awesome for the game before, so I left for a couple of years, but now I and my big brain are back, so let me tell you (and Capn Josh) what the game needs to make it not terrible anymore. You need to listen to me because I am smart and people who disagree with me are stupid. See? I was born in 1994 and I am entitled to things."

 

 

OK

 

Don't remove radar. Bad idea. Different mechs already have different radar ranges. Maybe adjust those values, or have a special surveillance/Electronic Counter Measures mech: very powerful radar, listening devices, but low armor, and special ability to EMP all enemy mechs in its immediate vicinity. Hmm...

 

Tweak the scanner and radar maybe. I honestly never thought they were much of a problem. Don't want to show up on radar? Don't boost around announcing yourself. Don't want to appear on a scanner? Open your ears, and go find and destroy it. Same goes for scrambler. Also, if you and your team are fighting in an area where the enemy has the advantage, be that a geographical advantage, height advantage, radar denial, heat dissipation denial, then make the basic tactical decision to MOVE from there. That's Art of War stuff right there. You fight where YOU have the advantage, not the enemy. You choose the place to fight, not them. You don't fight when you have no advantage. Not, "the scanner and radar have to be removed from the game, because I keep showing up on it and it gets me killed."

 

Yes, there are map glitches that allow you to toss a scanner or scrambler in an area where it can't be destroyed, and I think that that needs to be fixed as much as possible. Fix alll the glitches.

 

Adjust for the tech. A good team with a good tech almost always beats a good team without a tech. Also the Incin needs a slight nerf. It's really not too bad as it is now. Yesterday I played against a team with 2 daisy-chained Techs healing an Incin, plus an Assault supporting that, and they were just tearing us up. Half our team was lower level pilots and they just couldn't deal, none of us could really.

 

Leave remote detonation alone, maybe a very slight nerf. When I learned this very simple technique, was when my rate of leveling up vastly increased. Direct hits can be very hard for new players to land on skilled players. There are still many new players who have no idea that you can  even do remote tow detonation. Hell, there are players who have to be told how to repair, I see them all the time.

 

Scout...I actually tried the Scout for the first time in years yesterday. Tried it briefly once, years ago in test drive, I didn't really dig it. Then I picked one up yesterday, jumped into the TDM queue. First match: top score, Kill leader, all that. Second match went similarly. It's a fast, dangerous mech, but it pops like a balloon. Against a player that sees you coming, and that can hit their shots, you won't last long, 

 

Air compressor was a part that I wanted, before it even existed in the game. Once I saw how a good pilot could use it, I realized that not having one puts you at a disadvantage to anyone who does use it. So that, and the fact that it's much more fun and it changes flying/hovering from "kill me, everyone!" to "LOL, I'm over here now!" It just needs to be more accessible, perhaps at pilot level 8-10 instead of 21.

 

 

I'm seeing a lot of posts on the FB Hawken page that basically boil down to: "The game is P2W because I have to spend time to level up a mech. I don't have the skill to level up a mech in a period of time that I consider acceptable. I want all the unlocks without grinding or paying. Accommodate me."

 

 

What about a single player, offline-capable campaign mode, that would allow the player to use several mechs, of their choice, throughout the storyline? When the campaign is completed, the player has access to all the mechs they used, completely leveled and unlocked. This way they can "test drive," so to speak, different mechs, internals, and play styles without paying anything, and get valuable experience, as opposed to just going online, getting crushed, then make posts about OP mechs and how they are entitled to having the "soon-to-be dead P2W game" modified to suit their taste. It would also serve to introduce the lore of the Hawken world. There could be a special mech that could only be unlocked through achieving a "secret ending" to the campaign.

 

 

I really don't want the game changed too much at all. Some of us never stopped playing, because for us, the game wasn't broken,and every little thing wasn't "broken," "OP," and "imbalanced." You get smashed, you play harder, smarter, and you learn to get better. You step out of your weight class before you're ready, and you get mushed. That's how games, and life in general, work.  Not, "I can't reach the mountaintop, so we need to change the landscape and make the mountaintop right where I am now."

[HugeGuts]

Whether Hawken's game play stays vertically focused or becomes grounded like it used to be, one thing needs to happen for sure: Low health pools have to go. It is the number one reason why new players are having such a bad time.

 

Larger health pools made the game's pace slow enough for inexperienced players to easily recognize and learn from their mistakes. It also didn't make them feel "rushed" to get better.